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Post by burningcherry on May 24, 2019 13:43:41 GMT
Why do people believe that the quarians are, as compared to the other races, somehow exceptionally negative towards the geth? The sad truth for the latter is that no one wants them. For all practical purposes, there's a scientific consensus in the galaxy that artificial intelligence capable of infiltrating the Extranet is a deadly threat to all developed organic life and research on creating it is considered a crime against the entire galaxy.[1] It is not a dead letter: when the Council discovered in 2165 that Alliance was doing research on artificial intelligence of unknown origin, it's been decided that humanity is stripped of all military independence, for punishment and prevention of repeating the issue[2]; they backed down with a dose of hesitation after the human Ambassador threatened them with armed resistance should they actually impose those sanctions.[3] Even tinkering with geth technology is prosecuted with the same rigour.[4] The reaction of the Council races* to the Rannoch uprising wasn't "oh, how nice, we have new synthetic friends" but a siege of an entire sector of the galaxy in preparation for a defensive war.[1] Even though this politics is just what science determined as the only way of preserving organic life in the long run, the creator of the Codex, Legion and EDI didn't hesitate to call it "pure racism".[5] Shepard can say a few bitter words to Tali in ME1 but if anyone is to be representative to the galaxy's opinion, it's raised in its heart Garrus, who reproaches the quarian in an elevator that her grandfathers brought a danger upon the rest.[6] Humans aren't lenient, either.[7] Just because they let the geth free, the quarians are treated worse than a race that tried to slaughter the entire galaxy at its time (the krogans) – when they once found a planet they could settle on, the Council chased them away with mass destruction weapons use threat and gave it to the biologically unfit** to it elcor instead[8]. After the known party at the Citadel, all armies of the galaxy remodeled their weapons against enemies such as geth, which means that the negative sentiment grew even further; indeed, you can see it from the turian from the hackers circle in Andromeda or from the "strengthened" security at the Citadel in ME2. Javik's motto is "the only good synthetic is a dead synthetic"; after Legion is acquired in ME2, Jacob and Miranda discuss whether he's to be shot, thrown out an airlock or sold to Cerberus; Wrex's comment after Feros is that it was his kind of mission because he "killed a buch of synthetics and ended with a big boom". If Tali said anything so edgy except the circumstances of her father's death, the squawk and butthurt in the fandom would be insufferable. In conclusion, except one optional dialogue, there was no sign of sympathy towards the geth from non-quarians between the destruction of the Council's diplomatic vessels and Shepard and Legion shaking their hands. Now quarians. They're usually looked on through the lens of Admiral Gerrel, which of course closes the matter, but is as intellectually honest as equating all the geth with the heretics. We already know that the attempt to shut the geth down on Rannoch was just a realization of a law based on science, everyone else would do the same, sooner (proof: no one before the quarians or after them came so far at creating artificial intelligence) and probably, not being as much emotionally bound to AI, without obstructions in the form of people shielding their synthetic children with own bodies. We know from history that when the turians found themselves in a similar situation as the quarians around the Trilogy's time (i.e. a threat to the biological existence[9]), they didn't hesitate to bring near extinction to another species. It's naive to think that humans, salarians or anyone except the rachni would not try to take their homeworld back from machines if their existence depended on it. It's not exactly clear what it refers to, but it's said that quarians universally believe themselves to be giulty of hubris for their actions on Rannoch.[10] Rael'Zorah can be considered the greatest war criminal for pursuing experiments on the geth. Many quarians during the time of exile attempted to contact the geth and make friends with them***; some of them even managed to return alive.[11] Despite the low chances because of the Council and its fleet, the anti-war pro-colonization party of Ysin'Mal and Zaal'Koris was growing in strength, which resulted in a landslide of the pro-peace side in the Admiralty until Xen and Raan opted for war, and Idenna's mission. It couldn't happen without some basis in society, like the Nedas movement****. Finally, the only way to reconcile ME3's SP and MP modes plot-wise it to make peace between the quarians and the geth, which means that it's semi-canon***** that even that Han'Gerrel who ordered to shoot at a ship Tali and Shepard were on, held fire to the geth in the critical moment. Concluding, despite that the quarians enter active conflict with the geth, it's not caused by some phobia, but necessity. Situation aside, it's the quarians who sympathize with the geth most and only among the quarians there are cases of pursuit of coexistence with the geth. So, the question from the first paragraph returns: why are people so wrong? Is this ignorance? Conformism to Mac Walters' narration? Disdain for talifans? Discuss. * note that the source doesn't mention any hostile reaction of the Terminus systems to the presence of Council fleets, which probably means that they didn't mind it in this specific case ** assuming it had dextro life, which is a precondition for long-term quarian colonization *** now remember Alliance's warnings in geth planet descriptions in ME2 **** "nowhere", quarian hippies who tattoo "forget Rannoch" on themselves, described in ME: Annihilation ***** defined as "belonging to the intersection of all possible Trilogy playthroughs that don't end prematurely (i.e. by dying in the SM) and sustain world consistency wherever possible" (most people would call it simply "canon") [1] ME: Revelation, chapter 8 (below) [2] ME: Revelation, chapter 15 (below) [3] there [4] ME: Discovery, chapter 1 (below) [5] Chris L'Etoile: "There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics" (https://www.resetera.com/threads/old-gem-chris-letoile-former-bioware-writer-on-writing-ai-for-mass-effect.29024/) [6] YT[7] YT[8] Ekuna (Phoenix Massing, Salahiel system) [9] ME: Ascension, chapter 22 (below) [10] Codex/Non-Council races/Quarians: Religion [11] ME: Discovery, chapter 2 edit: tagging chonma because you were interested the last time we talked this
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Post by brfritos on May 24, 2019 15:47:33 GMT
Oh look, another thread than didn't liked how history is told. I think nazi germany is also cool, specially their uniforms, we should rewrite history to demystify the wrong views people have about that regime.
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Post by Upggrade on May 24, 2019 17:06:54 GMT
I never disliked the quarians for being raysis to the geth, I disliked them for being dumb enough to make their robot slaves sentient and for their asinine handling of the situation ever since.
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Post by chonma on May 24, 2019 20:30:51 GMT
i made an very long msg with tons od arguments.
but windows 10 decided otherwise, i crashed...
so, i ll make it VERY short and with some inexactitudes because i am tired of writing pages for nothing
quarians tryed an crappy in-beetween solution. this is why things turned to be so bad.
when your toasters become sentients, you got 2 basics solution:
1)accept to give them freedom (cost less than loosing a war)
2)making a full war (and by full, i mean not hesitate to use mass-destruction weaponry. we know that any electronic stuff is more prone to disfunction thann organic stuff when exposed to radiations [you can see it through irl events: in 1986, some radio-command tool machines gave to ukrainians workers appeared to be useless and HS, because radiations] )
and if war get lost, then, instead of using the ressources you got to stay nomad, try to build an non-mobile colony in an semi-hostile planet (yeah, it will be hard, but what need more workforce and ressources: keep an large fleet operationnal for centuries? or keep an colony + an tiny fleet operational? i think we know the answer. space is more hostile than a lot of semi-hostile planets)
quarians where too agressive to try act peacefully, but too weak and/or too coward to wage an total extermination war, and they are too attached to rannoch to use their ressources to slowly settler down on an unhabited planet.
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Post by burningcherry on May 24, 2019 21:51:05 GMT
and if war get lost, then, instead of using the ressources you got to stay nomad, try to build an non-mobile colony in an semi-hostile planet (yeah, it will be hard, but what need more workforce and ressources: keep an large fleet operationnal for centuries? or keep an colony + an tiny fleet operational? i think we know the answer. space is more hostile than a lot of semi-hostile planets) quarians where too agressive to try act peacefully, but too weak and/or too coward to wage an total extermination war, and they are too attached to rannoch to use their ressources to slowly settler down on an unhabited planet. Your entire post, just like the post above, is quite off-topic because the thread is not about what they should have done but what they did, why and what would someone else do in their place, but I felt a need to reply to this part. This may not actually be too far from their actual mode of operation. The Fleet is not constantly on the move; rather, they move to a cluster and mine out everything they can before the local political power kicks them away. We see Novarra's crew on a strip mining duty on a planet and they had to be there already for a while because the hole they digged was quite big... but they made some deals before so that they could stay. That a push for a new stable homeworld existed, I already explained in the OP.
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Post by chonma on May 24, 2019 22:11:59 GMT
and if war get lost, then, instead of using the ressources you got to stay nomad, try to build an non-mobile colony in an semi-hostile planet (yeah, it will be hard, but what need more workforce and ressources: keep an large fleet operationnal for centuries? or keep an colony + an tiny fleet operational? i think we know the answer. space is more hostile than a lot of semi-hostile planets) quarians where too agressive to try act peacefully, but too weak and/or too coward to wage an total extermination war, and they are too attached to rannoch to use their ressources to slowly settler down on an unhabited planet. Your entire post, just like the post above, is quite off-topic because the thread is not about what they should have done but what they did, why and what would someone else do in their place, but I felt a need to reply to this part. This may not actually be too far from their actual mode of operation. The Fleet is not constantly on the move; rather, they move to a cluster and mine out everything they can before the local political power kicks them away. We see Novarra's crew on a strip mining duty on a planet and they had to be there already for a while because the hole they digged was quite big... but they made some deals before so that they could stay. That a push for a new stable homeworld existed, I already explained in the OP. i say what they should have done in my opinion to contrast (not say "they did it wrong" just for the pleasure of saying so) for the fact of fleeing away when the local power ask for, this is another error (if they find a system that contain enough raw substances + has no other population ---> go for it, and stay there) for the push for another homeworld, i remember that they talked about it in some dialogues of the MEA-anhilation book, and i find this is a more logical idea (but a fair amount of quarrians refuse to see this logic, so, well...)
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Post by burningcherry on May 24, 2019 22:48:27 GMT
for the fact of fleeing away when the local power ask for, this is another error (if they find a system that contain enough raw substances + has no other population ---> go for it, and stay there) Yeah, unless they threaten you with bombarding your mining sites. You should also read Ascension.
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Post by chonma on May 24, 2019 22:57:31 GMT
for the fact of fleeing away when the local power ask for, this is another error (if they find a system that contain enough raw substances + has no other population ---> go for it, and stay there) Yeah, unless they threaten you with bombarding your mining sites.You should also read Ascension. depend the bombarding cappabilities, the deepness of the infrastructures, if it's "stealth" enough, what they would earn by bombing you vs what they would loose (because energy isn't free, ships cannot fire an unlimited amount of shots freely) ect...
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Post by brfritos on May 25, 2019 0:37:43 GMT
Your entire post, just like the post above, is quite off-topic because the thread is not about what they should have done but what they did, why and what would someone else do in their place, but I felt a need to reply to this part. There's a problem with your reasoning: the books are not part of the Commander Shepard story, they exist to expand the game's universe. And what the games about Cmdr. Shepard, the story we actually play and know tells us? I've looked in the Codex and couldn't find anything about why an AI is bad and why they were banned because they would evolve past their creators. The codex simply states that AI were banned because the quarians created the geth, tried to destroy them when they show signs of evolution and lost the war.
The text is actually this between the three games: "The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. When the geth showed signs of self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them. The geth won the resulting war. This example has led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligences in galactic society".
The last time I checked none of the games are sold with the novels included. See the problem here? If we go even further, then we have a dissonance between the game's story and the novel's story. The novels are important to the game's decisions? Then they should've been included in the game's disc.
ME3 tried to push this whole organic x synthetic and the AI thing in the main arc, which was never discussed before no matter how much people try to say that "AI was a great deal in Mass Effect plot", because it never was. We have bits and pieces here and there, but lengthy discussions about it in the game? Where? In Tali and Legion missions? If this is the great discussion about the subject in the game, then the reasoning of the majority are not wrong, because the game shows us the quarians ARE wrong. Heck, Daro Xen even sent me a message about how Tali's father research will lead the quarians to dominate the geth again and then they would have an army capable of rivaling even the turians.
And the main problem with the discussion, since you stated in your first post the "semi-cannon of Mass Effect is the peace between the quarians and geth", it just serve to contradict the games and novels even more, with the Catalyst stating that synthetic and organic life cannot coexist and will destroy one another or the books stating AI would surpass and revolt against their creators and no matter what exterminate them, while depending of your decisions you've proved exactly the contrary. And you can't even tell him that (which contribute even more to the whole ending debacle)! Like I said in the beginning, what are we talking about? What we saw and play in the game or what's written in the novels? The two clearly have problems when looked togheter, specially because the second game changed the direction of the frenchise. I will not even add the comics, because then the entire ME universe falls apart.
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Post by burningcherry on May 25, 2019 6:17:31 GMT
Your entire post, just like the post above, is quite off-topic because the thread is not about what they should have done but what they did, why and what would someone else do in their place, but I felt a need to reply to this part. There's a problem with your reasoning: the books are not part of the Commander Shepard story, they exist to expand the game's universe. You just said this. I see: there seems to be an inconsistency between Revelation and the Codex about the time the strictest anti-AI laws were implemented (it says "repression", though we don't know much about "suppression"). Or maybe L'Etoile made a mistake writing this part, he's known for setbacks in crucial parts. Which doesn't change much, because he confirmed with emphasis the main thing I want to say: everyone in the Citadel space hates the geth and the quarians who do are not alone. But they're not, for similar reasons why the Leviathan DLC is sold separately from base ME3. For to argue about whether they are wrong or not, you would need to: 1) be more specific about your arguments, 2) create your own thread because this one is not about judging but about determining where who stands. We can see quarians and geth coexisting, at least for a while. What about the long term? There are two options: a) the Catalyst is correct – then the quarians who attempted to destroy the geth and everyone supporting them were wrong only about not nuking Rannoch and the entire geth space; b) the Catalyst is wrong and his mistake is to think about synthetics as a uniform whole while they differ substantially between themselves. Nowhere it's stated that AI is bad, maybe except the Overlord DLC. What is stated is that nearly all the experts think so and their opinion is what shapes the law and a common man's beliefs. We're talking about how who sees the geth. This is actually a quite consistent topic: everyone we see hates them, except some quarians and maybe Shepard and the people Shepard influences.
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 25, 2019 23:07:10 GMT
Personally I think the quarian leadership has been incredibly stupid for centuries. Your telling me that the quarians couldn't settle a planet? They always had weak immune systems but living on star ships killed it completely. If they had setteled a planet they could have adapted and been a thousand times better off. Instead they floated around sulking. Koris had the right idea.
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Post by burningcherry on May 26, 2019 7:35:24 GMT
Personally I think the quarian leadership has been incredibly stupid for centuries. Your telling me that the quarians couldn't settle a planet? They always had weak immune systems but living on star ships killed it completely. If they had setteled a planet they could have adapted and been a thousand times better off. Instead they floated around sulking. Koris had the right idea. Ekuna's case proves that they wanted to try once they find a suitable planet. Finding which wasn't easy because there was apparently nothing like that in the known galaxy outside of the Council's interest space – the Idenna and presumably all the ships that followed her were sent to unknown, through recently activated mass relays. Anyway, your post is fatally off-topic.
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Post by bardox on May 27, 2019 1:29:45 GMT
I will preface this by saying I love Tali. I think she is the best written character in the series. There are several spoilers in this so if you haven't played ME2 or 3 yet for some reason, skip this post.
It's hard to have pity for the Quarians. Being exiled from their home world, living as scavengers in salvaged ships rather than settling a new world, even the crippling of their immune systems, All of it... is the Quarian's own damn fault. Everything bad that has happened to their race was done by their own hands. They built the Geth. They gave them intelligence. When the Geth started questioning their existence, the QUarians (Partially I grant you) tried to destroy the Geth. The Quarians refused coexistence as an option so they were routed from Rannoch. The Geth have never tried to exterminate the Quarians. Once the Quarians stopped shooting at the Geth and ran away, the Geth Let them go.
The Quarians don't treat the Geth as a race. They treat them with the same deference you treat your dishwasher. They waged a war and lost then stayed bitter about it for 300 years, then repeated the same mistake their ancestors did by attacking the Geth AGAIN. The Geth Heretics are the problem in ME1, but after ME2 they are no longer a problem. The Geth are remaining in exile inside their own space until the Quarians attack in ME3.
In ME2 the Geth, that endangering the Flotilla, were brought there by Quarians. The Geth did no want to be there. They were trying to escape. Tali's father died because he was taking prisoners, essentially making the Geth you fight in that mission PoWs, and the prisoners got loose.
Are all Quarians obsessed with the destruction or subjugation of the Geth? No. Most just want to live their lives as far away from the Geth as they can get, but they also largely remain silent when the war drums start up. If fanatics rise and no one stops them, the peaceful silent majority are irrelevant. Fanatic warmongers are the only thing anyone will ever see. Admiral Xen wants to enslave the Geth. Admiral Han'gerrel wants to destroy them. Admiral Shala'Raan does not want to attack, she is silent. Only Admiral Zaal'Koris speaks against attacking the Geth. If Shalla'Raan had spoken up then there would have been no war with the Geth in ME3 and the Geth would not have turned to the Reapers for protection. Shala's silence is the cause of every death in Priority: Rannoch.
The admiralty board is an exemplar of the Quarians as a whole. The vocal peaceful Quarians are the exceptions, not the rule.
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Post by brfritos on May 27, 2019 2:57:48 GMT
I've looked in the Codex and couldn't find anything about why an AI is bad and why they were banned because they would evolve past their creators. The codex simply states that AI were banned because the quarians created the geth, tried to destroy them when they show signs of evolution and lost the war. The text is actually this between the three games: "The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. When the geth showed signs of self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them. The geth won the resulting war. This example has led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligences in galactic society". I see: there seems to be an inconsistency between Revelation and the Codex about the time the strictest anti-AI laws were implemented (it says "repression", though we don't know much about "suppression"). Or maybe L'Etoile made a mistake writing this part, he's known for setbacks in crucial parts. Which doesn't change much, because he confirmed with emphasis the main thing I want to say: everyone in the Citadel space hates the geth and the quarians who do are not alone. The game force the player to hate the quarians or the geth? I don't think so. While the galaxy is a lot of times unfair to the quarian people and the geth, the creation of the geth also bring many problems. A region of the Terminus was basically lost because it's the region where geth inhabit. Since most races react violently to the geth, the geth defend themselves from it. And since some of their technology are superior to ours, they usually emerge victorious from this conflicts, specially against mercenaries like the Blue Suns or a simple colonist. And let's not forget, while the Terminus is basically a "lawless" region, it's also very rich. The number of planets capable of sustaining life, richer in abundant resources and in strategic locations are on par or sometimes greater that those in Citadel space. The region was given to humans to colonize and explore because we were the late guests to the party. Even then, we also had our fair share of problems with the geth, so it's understandable the common earth citizen or a survival of a geth attack hates them. And since it's in our nature to simplifly things, most humans in the galaxy equals the geth problems as the quarians creating them. Also don't forget our own human nature for disregarding everything that is different from the common sense. I have the impression the news media on Earth probably treats the alien races with a degree of complacency or a downright derrogatory narrative of them. We are prejudice against human biotics, imagine about a turian? In the Citadel the matter is different. The station propaganda always hammer in the mind of its citizens that AI's are bad. And uses as the prime example the quarians creating the geth, that's the justification behind the ban on AI. So the common citizen equals the geth being problematic to the quarians being responsible for creating them and since the geth evicted the quarians from their homeworld, everyone assumes the quarians hate them. Again, prejudice, racism and assumption, nothing new on the universe. This is wrong of course, nothing is too simplistic as quarians = geth = all quarians hate geth. But the common asari, turian, salarian and human don't have the information we have about them, so yes, they are prejudice against the quarians and geth and think the quarians hate them too. If you want a similar subject, take the genophage for exemple. Hackett believe it's wrong and after the mission he even express it to Shepard. I doubt he do the same in front of a salarian or turian and probably thinks the salarians and turians hate the krogan by default. Look how he reacts when informed you are trying to forge an alliance between the turians and krogans, the desillusion on his face is palpable. Or Samantha Traynor, who thinks an alliance between turians and krogans was impossible, since they hate each other by default in her mind. Heck, even Shepard says this on Menae. The dangers of assumptions. Our own societies does this a lot. The reason is to Bioware make a quick buck. OK, that's not the reason in this case, this was the reason for making Omega and Javik a DLC. Leviathan is a DLC because the game fails terribly in exposition about what is behind the reapers, the motivations and how the cycle started (since Bioware decided to explain the reapers). The only hint we have about the reapers being tools, not the masters of the cycle, is the conversation with the Prothean VI at Thessia. And that's it, nothing more. No wonder the Catalyst appears to be a plot twist when in fact it's the opposite, he was always part of the game. It doesn't matter in this case, Shepard can't argue nothing the Catalyst says. And answer B is already wrong by default.
Is England uniformly equal to France? I can find a lot of similarities between the two countries, but they are the same society, with the same customs, culture and government?
I don't even bother in think about it. I like more to think about TIM and Shepard showdown, where TIM really thinks Shepard as a protegé. If you let him kill Anderson and since he's indocrinated he will try to kill you, he states how a disappointment to him you are. Shame after that the game don't end with something different than a "mission fail" screen.
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Post by burningcherry on May 27, 2019 7:30:03 GMT
The Geth have never tried to exterminate the Quarians. They did want. They killed more than 99% of the quarian species (OP, footnote 1), which had to include toddlers and invalides of no tactical importance. Any peaceful quarians who didn't manage to escape Rannoch, were all killed. The geth never communicated any willingness to peace. Any quarians who attempted to contact them and make friends, were all attacked (OP, footnote 11). Tali and her team were attacked on Haestrom. Shio'Leth vas Novarra wasn't invited to join watching the stars when he visited the Kholas array, the geth tried to capture him. Yeah, because what else should they do? Leave Rannoch to pursue them and take their chances with the turian military? No evidence that this was an act of mercy. They multiplicated and kept the ship within the Flotilla instead of doing basic repairs and escaping as they would do if their concern was to survive. (All of above was off-topic but I took the bait.)Raan and Xen also do until new counter-geth tech is developed; Tali never wanted a war. Tbf I believe that the pro-peace option is overrepresentated within the Admiralty but you need to note that they had a majority of votes most of the time. I see: there seems to be an inconsistency between Revelation and the Codex about the time the strictest anti-AI laws were implemented (it says "repression", though we don't know much about "suppression"). Or maybe L'Etoile made a mistake writing this part, he's known for setbacks in crucial parts. Which doesn't change much, because he confirmed with emphasis the main thing I want to say: everyone in the Citadel space hates the geth and the quarians who do are not alone. The game force the player to hate the quarians or the geth? I don't think so. While the galaxy is a lot of times unfair to the quarian people and the geth, the creation of the geth also bring many problems. A region of the Terminus was basically lost because it's the region where geth inhabit. Since most races react violently to the geth, the geth defend themselves from it. And since some of their technology are superior to ours, they usually emerge victorious from this conflicts, specially against mercenaries like the Blue Suns or a simple colonist. And let's not forget, while the Terminus is basically a "lawless" region, it's also very rich. The number of planets capable of sustaining life, richer in abundant resources and in strategic locations are on par or sometimes greater that those in Citadel space. The region was given to humans to colonize and explore because we were the late guests to the party. Even then, we also had our fair share of problems with the geth, so it's understandable the common earth citizen or a survival of a geth attack hates them. And since it's in our nature to simplifly things, most humans in the galaxy equals the geth problems as the quarians creating them. Also don't forget our own human nature for disregarding everything that is different from the common sense. I have the impression the news media on Earth probably treats the alien races with a degree of complacency or a downright derrogatory narrative of them. We are prejudice against human biotics, imagine about a turian? In the Citadel the matter is different. The station propaganda always hammer in the mind of its citizens that AI's are bad. And uses as the prime example the quarians creating the geth, that's the justification behind the ban on AI. So the common citizen equals the geth being problematic to the quarians being responsible for creating them and since the geth evicted the quarians from their homeworld, everyone assumes the quarians hate them. Again, prejudice, racism and assumption, nothing new on the universe. This is wrong of course, nothing is too simplistic as quarians = geth = all quarians hate geth. But the common asari, turian, salarian and human don't have the information we have about them, so yes, they are prejudice against the quarians and geth and think the quarians hate them too. If you want a similar subject, take the genophage for exemple. Hackett believe it's wrong and after the mission he even express it to Shepard. I doubt he do the same in front of a salarian or turian and probably thinks the salarians and turians hate the krogan by default. Look how he reacts when informed you are trying to forge an alliance between the turians and krogans, the desillusion on his face is palpable. Or Samantha Traynor, who thinks an alliance between turians and krogans was impossible, since they hate each other by default in her mind. Heck, even Shepard says this on Menae. The dangers of assumptions. Our own societies does this a lot. Everything you said is probably true, maybe except that "news" part (Cerberus Daily News was objective in my impression...). But we need to see this in a relevant context: how the quarians are treated matters to the topic only as much as much it tells about the treatment of AIs. And it tells that the resentment is on par or maybe even greater than what the quarians live with. This is what so many people forget, calling the quarians incredibly raycess (which can be true by someone's standards but this is irrelevant) without realizing that it's in worst case typical for the standards of the galaxy. In any case, you can construct a case of a person changing their mind on something based on content that is not necessary to play the Trilogy.
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Post by brfritos on May 27, 2019 23:38:14 GMT
In any case, you can construct a case of a person changing their mind on something based on content that is not necessary to play the Trilogy. I think that's exactly the problem with Leviathan: it's not just unnecessary content. Leviathan story and campaign are your run of the mill action shooter setting, let's be clear about it. The NPC that would give you the details is killed; then you go to a location to solve a conspiracy and find clues to your own puzzle; then to another one to rescue another key NPC that helps you solve the case; then the final destination is given for a "hinted" showdown with a boss. Except in this case the showndown is not a fight, it's content that explain some aspects of who the reapers are - you know, your main antagonist and the reason your are playing the game! - and shed some light to a future content that will be presented. It's not just about expanding the universe, is providing context to the game's narrative. Or fixing it, take your pick. This is something big about the story we are playing, not a minor event like Omega, From Ashes or in ME2 case, Kasumi, Overlord or Zaeed.
Look how differently the game unfolds with Leviathan or without it. If you have Leviathan, the player is warned that there's something more to your antagonists and perhaps another big event could happen. This is reinforced even more because the player can't refuse the Leviathan and he will always be referred from now on in the game (codex, EMS, journal and in the final conversation with the Catalyst). This will be reinforced again on Thessia, which warns the player for the encounter with the Catalyst. So something new is expected in the future, even if the player forgot about past events.
But if you play the game without Leviathan you have the hint on Thessia about the Catalyst and nothing more. Then so much time passes before you actually encounter him, with some major and important events impacting the narrative, that the player simply forgets about what the prothean VI said and a future event happening. The game even go further to smoke screen about the nature of the Catalyst, since it's only referred as a location, not a entity. And then becasue all of this the star child Catalyst turns into a "plot twist".
This is bad narrative and writting, you distracted the player so much that in the end he thinks the very character responsible for giving the final reward to your journey is a joke. You don't see this in LoTR for example, where the reader is also distracted A LOT during the narative, but the author always makes sure to state that something more is on the horizon than what the narrative shows, so you better pay attention to it.
That's why Leviathan would have helped immensely the game if already present since the beginning and it's not just unnecessary third part content IMO.
It's like Arrival. It's a DLC and the usual mantra is DLCs aren't important to the main story or game. Except Arrival is! If you played the DLC your first reaction when seeing the original ending without EC is "WTF have I done? I killed the galaxy!" But if you didn't played the DLC everything was fine with the relay's explosions. Big deal, they exploded, so what?
No wonder Bioware had to correct the scene.
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Post by vit246 on May 29, 2019 5:23:04 GMT
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Post by burningcherry on May 29, 2019 12:56:13 GMT
From the comments: The relevant part is that no one will do this for the quarians. Not the turians, not the asari, not the humans. No evidence that anyone else believes that they were wrong.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jun 10, 2019 6:27:22 GMT
Why do people believe that the quarians are, as compared to the other races, somehow exceptionally negative towards the geth?
edit: tagging chonma because you were interested the last time we talked this As I explain my own thread on the quarians and geth, the fault is in the writing for these games. There is very little nuance or realism when it comes to depicting the geth/quarian conflict. It all comes out being very biased against the quarians for very shallow and nonsensical reasons. It is natural and justified to take a hostile stance towards the geth as they have always been hostile to everyone else. My thread on the matter: "The Geth Don't Deserve Sympathy" bsn.boards.net/thread/16684/geth-deserve-sympathyAlso a good read.
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