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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 14:33:48 GMT
Having it all feed into a baby terminator It wasn't a baby terminator. It was a giant, incomplete terminator.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 15:03:12 GMT
ME2 had ridiculous plotline and facepalm end boss. Still - it had the highest production quality overall. I thought the plot line was perfectly fine. Having it all feed into a baby terminator reveal was extremely poor though. In itself it made an interesting journey. Mostly because of tje cast tho. In the light of trilogy I felt nothing much was accomplished. Reapers were delayed once more.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 21, 2019 16:10:27 GMT
I thought the plot line was perfectly fine. Having it all feed into a baby terminator reveal was extremely poor though. In itself it made an interesting journey. Mostly because of tje cast tho. In the light of trilogy I felt nothing much was accomplished. Reapers were delayed once more. I’d argue delaying the reapers was a pretty reasonable middle chapter of trilogy concept.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 16:17:09 GMT
In itself it made an interesting journey. Mostly because of tje cast tho. In the light of trilogy I felt nothing much was accomplished. Reapers were delayed once more. I’d argue delaying the reapers was a pretty reasonable middle chapter of trilogy concept. I'd have wished for more reasonable threat reception and more background reveal about the threat.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 16:31:28 GMT
I'd have wished for more reasonable threat reception and more background reveal about the threat. I don't quite understand what you mean about threat reception, but background reveal, as we learned in ME3, was better left untouched. If you're an incomprehensible Eldritch horror from deep space that has come to end all life, you don't to reveal your motive, because it's supposed to be incomprehensible, regardless and in the end, it doesn't matter. Instead, Mac opted to make it incomprehensible in its stupidity. I mean, it works as intended, just for the wrong reasons, so can't complain, right?
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 16:42:41 GMT
I'd have wished for more reasonable threat reception and more background reveal about the threat. I don't quite understand what you mean about threat reception, but background reveal, as we learned in ME3, was better left untouched. If you're an incomprehensible Eldritch horror from deep space that has come to end all life, you don't to reveal your motive, because it's supposed to be incomprehensible, regardless and in the end, it doesn't matter. Instead, Mac opted to make it incomprehensible in its stupidity. I mean, it works as intended, just for the wrong reasons, so can't complain, right? I mean not going with "Reapers - we have dismissed these claims" when one huge one just tried having its way with Citadel. I never bought that waving away of stuff that already happened.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 16:58:27 GMT
I mean not going with "Reapers - we have dismissed these claims" when one huge one just tried having its way with Citadel. I never bought that waving away of stuff that already happened. As it gets revealed later, it was done in order to prevent widespread panic and complete societal breakdown, which is not a bad idea, if I may say so myself. Especially if Reapers can be so far away, like a thousand years away, that you might consider spearheading some secret weapon development to counter those guys in the time afforded to you. Which would have been nice to be privy to that information, I can especially see Tevos, should she be alive, letting you in on that information, but the council probably considers you too much of a loose canon, at that point to trust you. I mean, you are working with Cerberus.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 21, 2019 17:03:04 GMT
I don't quite understand what you mean about threat reception, but background reveal, as we learned in ME3, was better left untouched. If you're an incomprehensible Eldritch horror from deep space that has come to end all life, you don't to reveal your motive, because it's supposed to be incomprehensible, regardless and in the end, it doesn't matter. Instead, Mac opted to make it incomprehensible in its stupidity. I mean, it works as intended, just for the wrong reasons, so can't complain, right? I mean not going with "Reapers - we have dismissed these claims" when one huge one just tried having its way with Citadel. I never bought that waving away of stuff that already happened. I wouldn’t have minded them telling shep that if in me3 showed them to have secretly preparing and not having trusted shep.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 17:12:04 GMT
I mean not going with "Reapers - we have dismissed these claims" when one huge one just tried having its way with Citadel. I never bought that waving away of stuff that already happened. As it gets revealed later, it was done in order to prevent widespread panic and complete societal breakdown, which is not a bad idea, if I may say so myself. Especially if Reapers can be so far away, like a thousand years away, that you might consider spearheading some secret weapon development to counter those guys in the time afforded to you. Which would have been nice to be privy to that information, I can especially see Tevos, should she be alive, letting you in on that information, but the council probably considers you too much of a loose canon, at that point to trust you. I mean, you are working with Cerberus. For 'public reception', yes. But not outright on all levels of government and special forces.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 21, 2019 17:16:52 GMT
Retconning back and forth? Given the consequences of the "back" part, wouldn't be so bad.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 21, 2019 17:19:47 GMT
I mean not going with "Reapers - we have dismissed these claims" when one huge one just tried having its way with Citadel. I never bought that waving away of stuff that already happened. As it gets revealed later, it was done in order to prevent widespread panic and complete societal breakdown, which is not a bad idea, if I may say so myself. Especially if Reapers can be so far away, like a thousand years away, that you might consider spearheading some secret weapon development to counter those guys in the time afforded to you. Which would have been nice to be privy to that information, I can especially see Tevos, should she be alive, letting you in on that information, but the council probably considers you too much of a loose canon, at that point to trust you. I mean, you are working with Cerberus. Yeah but it was revealed in a dlc that was so fan servicey it's continuity is questionable.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 17:27:05 GMT
For 'public reception', yes. But not outright on all levels of government and special forces. It's not up to us to judge that. Like I said, Tevos, who has always spurred us a little, since ME1, would have been an ideal candidate to let us in the know, but humanity was definitely a bunch of dumb fucks that drank the council official sponsored cool-aid and sat twiddling their thumbs at the Reaper threat. At least Hackett, Anderson and Udina believed us. You'd think they'd have some pull with Alliance high command on the subject.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 17:28:44 GMT
Yeah but it was revealed in a dlc that was so fan servicey it's continuity is questionable. What? I don't follow.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 18:03:44 GMT
For 'public reception', yes. But not outright on all levels of government and special forces. It's not up to us to judge that. Like I said, Tevos, who has always spurred us a little, since ME1, would have been an ideal candidate to let us in the know, but humanity was definitely a bunch of dumb fucks that drank the council official sponsored cool-aid and sat twiddling their thumbs at the Reaper threat. At least Hackett, Anderson and Udina believed us. You'd think they'd have some pull with Alliance high command on the subject. There is no need for any pull with high command when a good portion of fleet got wrecked at the battle of the citadel.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2019 18:07:48 GMT
There is no need for any pull with high command when a good portion of fleet got wrecked at the battle of the citadel. There should be need, if the Alliance High Command was deep in the "it was just some Geth super weapon" narrative. The three council races would most definitely have tried to push that narrative to the rest of the galaxy, in order to hog the super advanced Reaper tech. Which they did...
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Post by Phantom on Jun 21, 2019 18:19:44 GMT
For 'public reception', yes. But not outright on all levels of government and special forces. It's not up to us to judge that. Like I said, Tevos, who has always spurred us a little, since ME1, would have been an ideal candidate to let us in the know, but humanity was definitely a bunch of dumb fucks that drank the council official sponsored cool-aid and sat twiddling their thumbs at the Reaper threat. At least Hackett, Anderson and Udina believed us. You'd think they'd have some pull with Alliance high command on the subject. Well You could look at that way. Conversely you can look at it that System Alliance is patrolling the Entire Council Space after the Surprise Attack by Sovereign and his Geth Fleet did damage the Citadel Fleets defending the Citadel, thus didn't have the manpower or the infrastructure to do patrolling the Council Space, Alliance Space and investiage possible threats to the galaxy. Also It is easier to believe that there is no Lovecraftian Monsters in their lives and looks at people that speaks out about Lovecraftian Monster as crazy.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 21, 2019 18:37:21 GMT
There is no need for any pull with high command when a good portion of fleet got wrecked at the battle of the citadel. There should be need, if the Alliance High Command was deep in the "it was just some Geth super weapon" narrative. The three council races would most definitely have tried to push that narrative to the rest of the galaxy, in order to hog the super advanced Reaper tech. Which they did... Didnt we install human council member at the end of ME1. Well, I just found it kinda unbelievable that Sovereign attack would just be shrugged of like that.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 21, 2019 18:46:15 GMT
Yeah but it was revealed in a dlc that was so fan servicey it's continuity is questionable. What? I don't follow. The Council concealing Reapers from the general public was only confirmed in the Citadel DLC.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 21, 2019 21:43:51 GMT
At least Hackett, Anderson and Udina believed us. So what? Look at Anderson in ME2. He says that it's up to Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. Where was the interrupt to throw him off the balcony? He never cared. Neither did the Alliance since they made no effort to confirm Shepard's death. Then in ME3, Anderson wants Shepard to help find a way to stop the reapers. Again, where was the interrupt to smack the guy upside the head. **** him. **** the Alliance. On top of that there's the ME1 characters who were with Shepard chasing Saren. What did they do? They turned into c**kroaches and scattered throughout the galaxy. It's too bad Shepard couldn't ask them if they made any effort to find a way to stop the reapers. I'm sure they'll be suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome. That's why my Shepard has no problem working with Cerberus. They don't waste time talking or ignore problems, they deal with them. Unfortunately they turned into the keystone cops in ME3.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 21, 2019 22:40:22 GMT
It's bad because it's like saying "I don't care about expanding my knowledge I just want to be smart."
Characters and plot are inseperable but I do get what people mean, to some extent, when they say they prefer a bigger emphasis on the characters than the themes or the logic of plot to a story.
However, in the lower end of that spectrum you also get either Transformers or Life is Strange. LiS is too charming for me to start ranting about its problems right now, but Transformers is actually highly, highly character driven. Huh? You didn't love the human characters? You don't love Sam Witwicky, U WOT mate? Well there you go, you wanted characters more than plot. There you go. Character at the expense of good storytelling, you asked for it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 22, 2019 9:43:13 GMT
you wanted characters more than plot. There you go A good cast of characters can carry a bad plot. A good story, can't carry a bad cast of characters.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 22, 2019 13:39:10 GMT
you wanted characters more than plot. There you go A good cast of characters can carry a bad plot. A good story, can't carry a bad cast of characters. EDIT: I somehow read your meaning in reverse. However, it's important to note that the longevity of a bad story with "good" characters is ruined as the more you revisit it the more you'll find its shallowness apparent, and likeability wears down if it's not tied to any substance beyond a bunch of charming lines of dialogue.
Plot comes from characters. If you have a bad plot with likeable characters you've got a problem with narrative depth, and in the end it's depth that stands the test of time, not first-impression likeability.
A lot of people managed to like GTA V in spite of its morally bankrupt cast. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a masochist to enjoy it, but someone who can empathise with, or see the entertainment value of a story that tells a tale of would-be villains in any "hero's journey" arc. (That said, personally I wouldn't put it on a pedestal; GTA V has crap writing imo)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 22, 2019 15:31:19 GMT
Link"Guess"skiI disagree. The Dirty Dozen, The Magnificent Seven and Seven Samurai are no lesser movies because their plots are simplistic. They are all masterworks for things like - Characterization and character development - Art direction and aesthetics - Music - Cinematography - Performances If you disliked these movies, I think that is subjective, but they are subjectively considered classics for the things they got right. Certainly there are better movies than those today, but those have been built on advances of the medium over the years. Not that there hadn't been movies with better plots then, but not many that combined that with the focus to characters and their development to such an extent. Granted, ME2 isn't hindered by the RL limitations of technology, space and time, so there's really no excuse not to build a good plot as well, but I think it was done so deliberately in this case in order to not draw the attention away from the characters. I'm not going to say that ME2 is the perfect game, not at all and for quite a few reasons, I'd say it's quite far from it, but people give it increasingly too much flack for not being the game that they wanted. From its promotional material, though, ME2 never mislead its players about what it was going to be, or what you could expect. It delivered on people's expectations and while it could have handled many things better, sure, which is true for most all games, but it still remains the best received ME game this far. I can't say the same about ME3 or Andromeda.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 22, 2019 16:23:32 GMT
Link"Guess"ski I disagree. The Dirty Dozen, The Magnificent Seven and Seven Samurai are no lesser movies because their plots are simplistic. They are all masterworks for things like - Characterization and character development - Art direction and aesthetics - Music - Cinematography - Performances If you disliked these movies, I think that is subjective, but they are subjectively considered classics for the things they got right. Certainly there are better movies than those today, but those have been built on advances of the medium over the years. Not that there hadn't been movies with better plots then, but not many that combined that with the focus to characters and their development to such an extent. Granted, ME2 isn't hindered by the RL limitations of technology, space and time, so there's really no excuse not to build a good plot as well, but I think it was done so deliberately in this case in order to not draw the attention away from the characters. I'm not going to say that ME2 is the perfect game, not at all and for quite a few reasons, I'd say it's quite far from it, but people give it increasingly too much flack for not being the game that they wanted. From its promotional material, though, ME2 never mislead its players about what it was going to be, or what you could expect. It delivered on people's expectations and while it could have handled many things better, sure, which is true for most all games, but it still remains the best received ME game this far. I can't say the same about ME3 or Andromeda. Thing is, ME2 was the middle chapter of an overarching story. When that story basically disappears midway through, the overall snarrative suffers
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 22, 2019 16:36:11 GMT
Thing is, ME2 was the middle chapter of an overarching story. When that story basically disappears midway through, the overall snarrative suffers I disagree. All it has to be is a good game. And we've been over this a hundred times; nothing that ME2 could have done, actually saves ME3 from being what it ended up being.
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