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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2019 11:51:58 GMT
Can't process your idioms Not knowing the majesty of Coldsteel the hedgeheg. You can thank me later.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2019 17:08:44 GMT
How many of the loyalty missions did you do for your allies? Depending on those choices, some will be at the final battle with you, holding off the reaper forces, while others will perish. Did you destroy the Collector base or keep it for Cerberus? If you kept it for Cerberus, TIM will hail it in and bring in a number of Cerberus troops for you to fight. Did you have a high EMS score prior to the fight? More the galactic fleet will survive the initial skirmish with the Reapers, and Harbinger will be left more exposed. But all these "resolutions" where so ... minimal. Played out in the least imaginative and rewarding manner. Remember how in DA:O you could call upon your gathered allies to fight alongside you in the ending? It was nothing grand, but still more rewarding than ME3s, where you spent 3 games worth of effort to get maybe 2 lines of dialogue from a squad mate, some extra Cerberus troops that you'd spent the entire game battling against either way and some more ships getting destroyed. None of it felt big or significant. In the end it just felt so minor, like an afterthought, glossed over in the span of a few seconds. And again, I get it, it was all down to time constraints in the development, but is that really the way Bioware had envisioned their grand trilogy to end? Or intended to from the start? I don't think so. And this all goes back to what I've said before: compromises. Compromise too much and the illusion falls apart. Did it? I'm pretty sure it did.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 3, 2019 18:53:04 GMT
I won't hold my breath.
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Post by ahglock on Jul 26, 2019 0:20:22 GMT
I’d argue delaying the reapers was a pretty reasonable middle chapter of trilogy concept. I'd have wished for more reasonable threat reception and more background reveal about the threat. They could have made it work imo keeping 90% of the game as is. 1. Set up from the getgo that the council takes it serious. Have them going through reaper parts trying to make weapons that can defeat the reapers. 2. Have the collectors doing their thing but have your hook going after them to include or solely be because there is a connection to them and the reapers and you think they are the key to understanding reaper tech. Like a cypher to their systems. 3. Make it off book and with Cerberus because there is a not insignificant indoctrination problem on the citadel and in the alliance so you are trying to fly under the radar. End of mass effect 2 you have reaper killer ships being made. Even if it’s not enough and you still need a magic wand in ME3 it at least makes holding them off long enough to build it seem plausible.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 26, 2019 10:11:25 GMT
Depends if he's really in charge or if his hands are tied by EA's mandates...or if the inmates are running the prison.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 5:16:51 GMT
But all these "resolutions" where so ... minimal. Played out in the least imaginative and rewarding manner. Remember how in DA:O you could call upon your gathered allies to fight alongside you in the ending?It was nothing grand, but still more rewarding than ME3s, where you spent 3 games worth of effort to get maybe 2 lines of dialogue from a squad mate, some extra Cerberus troops that you'd spent the entire game battling against either way and some more ships getting destroyed. None of it felt big or significant. In the end it just felt so minor, like an afterthought, glossed over in the span of a few seconds. And again, I get it, it was all down to time constraints in the development, but is that really the way Bioware had envisioned their grand trilogy to end? Or intended to from the start? I don't think so. And this all goes back to what I've said before: compromises. Compromise too much and the illusion falls apart. Did it? I'm pretty sure it did. I remember some disposable cannon fodder showing up, much of it mandatory. At least ME:A had dialogue. As for "is that really the way Bioware had envisioned their grand trilogy to end? Or intended to from the start?".... really? You know better. Bio didn't think that far ahead. They never have, and never will.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 12:07:43 GMT
At least ME:A had dialogue. The thing about Andromeda's dialogue ... I read this line somewhere, something along the lines of "Andromeda's writing of dialogues feels like an AI approximation of what interactions between organics would be like". It's a very contrived way of saying "it feels artificial", sure, but it felt to me like it was really spot on. really? You know better. Bio didn't think that far ahead. They never have, and never will. I think and the leaked script for ME3 shows, that there was going to be a lot more work to be put into ME3 and a lot of things couldn't make it into the game. I believe that they were way too swamped, but really proud of their hard work to see how people ... might not have been as on board with their final product as they had expected. They consciously made the decision to cut some stuff, they made compromises here and there, but they believed it would all pan out great. Well, here we are.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 16:07:19 GMT
I was specifically referring to dialogue in the ME:A endgame sequence there; my point was that ME:A's implementation is better than DA:O's. I thought that was clear from the context.
Similarly, ME3 does a lot better with the Reaper threat than DA:O does with the darkspawn threat.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 16:08:48 GMT
Similarly, ME3 does a lot better with the Reaper threat than DA:O does with the darkspawn threat. At least we got to fight the Darkspawn in a satisfying way in DA:O.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 16:38:15 GMT
Well, ME made the mistake of having the enemies be gigantic space battleships and the hero be a guy with an assault rifle.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 16:45:17 GMT
Well, ME made the mistake of having the enemies be gigantic space battleships and the hero be a guy with an assault rifle. Boy, have I been saying that since forever.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 28, 2019 14:48:55 GMT
Well, ME made the mistake of having the enemies be gigantic space battleships and the hero be a guy with an assault rifle. Nope. They did not, they just failed to deliver the story of guys with assault rifles versus godly killer machines with proper logic. The board was green for any outlandish idea to solve that issue and they took the easy way out of it for some reason I'll never really understand. First by stalling in ME2 and then by not really reeling it in to a believable premise in ME3. We had prothean beacons, mind-manipulating ciphers and creatures, the most advanced intel broker network in our pocket, trigger-happy asteroid-into-planets crushers and a rogue-ish organization that would do anything to subvert the science deployed by Reapers... and almost none of it was craftily used once the ME3's ball started rolling when so much of it could've led to numerous unconventional war strategies that circumvented the "conventional war won't help" issue.
Then put the mysterious "maybe Prothean" device on top of a plot that used those ideas creatively, and throw in a twist about its ambiguous function and how we could repurpose it using Cerberus or other means, and you'd have a way more satisfying game and an unprecedented storytelling at that, given that shows like Star Trek or Star Wars movies only rarely think too far outside of the box with their depiction of war and strategy.
While I get why some just see Mass Effect for "what it really was" which is a series of weird/lazy macguffins and a stalling, indecisive main plot, I always took it and found it to give the whole main arc of the 3 games or at least the first two games, a very unique feeling, a good one, because Reapers is such an unprecedented foe to have in an otherwise clichéd plotline of "Us versus Them".
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 29, 2019 2:25:36 GMT
Everyone keeps saying that there were really good ideas kicking around which could have fixed the mess ME1 created, but I never actually see one.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 29, 2019 7:28:34 GMT
Similarly, ME3 does a lot better with the Reaper threat than DA:O does with the darkspawn threat. At least we got to fight the Darkspawn in a satisfying way in DA:O. DA4 is coming up and I have still no idea why they are. DA does kinda the same thing meandering through possible stories. By now I doubt 'closure' is a given concept with BW stories.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 29, 2019 11:18:10 GMT
Everyone keeps saying that there were really good ideas kicking around which could have fixed the mess ME1 created, but I never actually see one. I agree, but at this point, there is no reason to. The best thing we can do right now, is move on from the problem and try to fix what Bioware broke with ME3, so people can give a shit about the franchise again.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 29, 2019 12:19:27 GMT
At least we got to fight the Darkspawn in a satisfying way in DA:O. DA4 is coming up and I have still no idea why they are. DA does kinda the same thing meandering through possible stories. By now I doubt 'closure' is a given concept with BW stories. It's especially egregious how, the main villain of DA4, was a former party member in the last instalment, whose villain plot was paywalled by DLC and released nearly two years after the game's launch. So there are people out there, who never cared for the DLC, never played it and are now going to see a former teammate be their enemy, without knowing the how or why. I hadn't played it and I didn't know, it got spoilered to me and I thought "What? Solas? That piece of Styrofoam? Are you kidding me?" I am amazed how a 3D character could chew through so much scenery The love child of Bruce Payne and Billy Zane
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Post by Iakus on Jul 30, 2019 16:12:12 GMT
Well, ME made the mistake of having the enemies be gigantic space battleships and the hero be a guy with an assault rifle. Problem is you can't defeat Cthulhu with an assault rifle, or any other mortal weapon. You defeat Cthulhu by putting it back to sleep, or blocking it's path into the world. ME1 actually handled it just right, you stop the Reapers by making sure teh dark space relay doesn't get opened. Arrival too handled that right. And is arguably a better ME2 than ME2 for it. ME2 and ME3 f*cked up by forcing the galaxy to actually fight tens of thousands of Reapers when the objective SHOULD HAVE BEEN making sure that scenario never took place.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 17:09:27 GMT
Well, ME made the mistake of having the enemies be gigantic space battleships and the hero be a guy with an assault rifle. Problem is you can't defeat Cthulhu with an assault rifle, or any other mortal weapon. You defeat Cthulhu by putting it back to sleep, or blocking it's path into the world. ME1 actually handled it just right, you stop the Reapers by making sure teh dark space relay doesn't get opened. Arrival too handled that right. And is arguably a better ME2 than ME2 for it. ME2 and ME3 f*cked up by forcing the galaxy to actually fight tens of thousands of Reapers when the objective SHOULD HAVE BEEN making sure that scenario never took place. Explain to me how there is actually "a path" to block between what is, in reality, a single space (dark or not) over an entire galaxy. There isn't. The mistake was ME1's in trying to set up a "castle siege" scenario over a vast 3-dimensional and, in reality, unrestricted space that isn't even limited once one gets beyond the galaxy itself... and then by using a network to speed travel through all that space that the Reapers themselves built and, by any rights, should have had control of on multiple levels. It's not surprising that the concept quickly fell apart in the subsequent games.
Tell me, how long would it have taken the Reapers to build all the mass relays across the entire galaxy when there wasn't that many Reapers to start with and they have to first travel to those points using standard FTL and then take whatever time it takes to build a Mass Relay... and then have that all operational and wait for the first civilizations to "develop along the paths they desire" and then break off every 50,000 years to harvest all those now advanced enough civilizations in order to construct new Reapers?
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 30, 2019 17:16:08 GMT
DA4 is coming up and I have still no idea why they are. DA does kinda the same thing meandering through possible stories. By now I doubt 'closure' is a given concept with BW stories. It's especially egregious how, the main villain of DA4, was a former party member in the last instalment, whose villain plot was paywalled by DLC and released nearly two years after the game's launch. So there are people out there, who never cared for the DLC, never played it and are now going to see a former teammate be their enemy, without knowing the how or why. I hadn't played it and I didn't know, it got spoilered to me and I thought "What? Solas? That piece of Styrofoam? Are you kidding me?" I am amazed how a 3D character could chew through so much scenery The love child of Bruce Payne and Billy Zane Ye, that pretty much sounds like me. I wouldnt even be surprised when they wouldnt recap and explain it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jul 30, 2019 17:17:30 GMT
Well one they didn’t have to allow the reapers the ability to travel without needing to discharge.
They could have stayed in hibernation all of me2 and 3. With me2 stopping yet another plot to wake them and ME3 being about going to dark space to destroy their relays so even if they eventually wake up they can’t leave.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 17:36:28 GMT
Well one they didn’t have to allow the reapers the ability to travel without needing to discharge. They could have stayed in hibernation all of me2 and 3. With me2 stopping yet another plot to wake them and ME3 being about going to dark space to destroy their relays so even if they eventually wake up they can’t leave. Then, I would think it impossible for the Reapers to have constructed all those relays across the galaxy in the first place. The galaxy simply isn't old enough to accommodate all that Reaper history unless there were many multitudes of them existing from the outset (that they were indeed legion, as Sovereign described)... and that alone destroys any sense ME1 has since leaving 1 sentry awake in an entire galaxy when you have a vast unrestricted space to patrol and multiple species to observe makes absolutely no sense. It makes no sense that the Reapers have to hibernate (retreat for 50,000 years) anyways - they are eternal machines. It would have made more sense if they toured the galaxy from cluster to cluster and continued to harvest individual civilizations as they went.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 30, 2019 18:01:59 GMT
Yea, I also feel that it would have been a bit anticlimactic, never to see the reapers actually invade after ME1. IMO, the depiction of the reaper war itself was one of the great strengths of ME3. If anything, the whole Cerberus plot was way too much if a distraction from the actually interesting theaters of war we could have been in. I also would have scrapped or massively changed the role of the collectors though. When I first read of them when Ascension came out and they were still this mystical faction, I had a whole theory of where BW might be going with this (spoilering it for space reasons and because it's not really that relevant to the point I'm trying to make). My theory was that the collectors are actually a race that rival the reapers but while the reapers are post-singularity machine entities, the collectors are all about bio-engineering and biological evolution (think roughly Species 8472 from ST: Voyager vs. the Borg). Those two races would have been in a sort of cold war for millions upon millions of years, without either winning a decisive victory. They both keep the cycles going as they both hope it will eventually give them an advantage. While the reapers hope to see new feats to technological engineering from each cycle (and create new reapers by uploading people into a new one of their own), the collectors hope for new avenues of biological evolution to study, to augment their own DNA (hence their interest in all those particular specimens that we read about in Ascension). ME2 would have been about finding out a lot of this background. ME3 would have been when the war goes from cold to hot. It would have been a three front war between the reapers and collectors with the current cycle races caught in the middle. Your main objective in ME3 would have been to do critical missions to direct the flow of battles, ideally in order to pit the reapers against the collectors directly as often as possible, so they weaken each other (you know, lure the collectors here, maybe destroy another relay to get the reapers to go a certain route, etc.). There would also have been the possibility to fail missions (without a game over), which would diminish your chances for the end game. In the end, Shepard, with all the knowladge they gathered in ME2 and all the delaying and battle-channeling actions they took in ME3 would put themselves in a position where they force a decisive confrontation, with a chance that all parties might actually wipe each other out. That leads to some negotiations, where Shepard could choose to side with either side or (if the players preparations were good enough) pull kind of a Sheridan (from Babylon 5) and make the reapers and collectors figure their own differences out without destroying our cycle in the process. In any case, while it could have been cool to actually go out into dark space, I'd have approached it in terms of some super risky covert information gathering mission (which we barely survive), rather than with the purpose of outright defeating the reaper armada on their own turf.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 30, 2019 18:26:18 GMT
Tell me, how long would it have taken the Reapers to build all the mass relays across the entire galaxy when there wasn't that many Reapers to start with and they have to first travel to those points using standard FTL and then take whatever time it takes to build a Mass Relay... and then have that all operational and wait for the first civilizations to "develop along the paths they desire" and then break off every 50,000 years to harvest all those now advanced enough civilizations in order to construct new Reapers? The other question I've had is how long were the cycles before the 50,000 year cycle began? That would give an idea of how many reapers there might be.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 30, 2019 18:30:14 GMT
DA4 is coming up and I have still no idea why they are. DA does kinda the same thing meandering through possible stories. By now I doubt 'closure' is a given concept with BW stories. It's especially egregious how, the main villain of DA4, was a former party member in the last instalment, whose villain plot was paywalled by DLC and released nearly two years after the game's launch. So there are people out there, who never cared for the DLC, never played it and are now going to see a former teammate be their enemy, without knowing the how or why. I hadn't played it and I didn't know, it got spoilered to me and I thought "What? Solas? That piece of Styrofoam? Are you kidding me?" I am amazed how a 3D character could chew through so much scenery The love child of Bruce Payne and Billy Zane Assuming DA is sticking to its new PC rule, this shouldn't matter. The new PC will have to be brought up to speed on the situation even if some players have experience with Solas.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 30, 2019 18:31:23 GMT
DA4 is coming up and I have still no idea why they are. DA does kinda the same thing meandering through possible stories. By now I doubt 'closure' is a given concept with BW stories. It's especially egregious how, the main villain of DA4, was a former party member in the last instalment, whose villain plot was paywalled by DLC and released nearly two years after the game's launch. So there are people out there, who never cared for the DLC, never played it and are now going to see a former teammate be their enemy, without knowing the how or why. I hadn't played it and I didn't know, it got spoilered to me and I thought "What? Solas? That piece of Styrofoam? Are you kidding me?" I am amazed how a 3D character could chew through so much scenery The love child of Bruce Payne and Billy Zane Well, except for the teammate part, that describes Corypheus in DAI to a "T"
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