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Post by alanc9 on Jul 30, 2019 18:43:28 GMT
Well one they didn’t have to allow the reapers the ability to travel without needing to discharge. They could have stayed in hibernation all of me2 and 3. With me2 stopping yet another plot to wake them and ME3 being about going to dark space to destroy their relays so even if they eventually wake up they can’t leave. This would have required even more Reaper stupidity and arrogance than we already got, but I guess the series could have handled that. I'm not sure how we handwave away the Reapers being able to build a relay in a place they can't travel to, but I suppose some techhnobabble would work as long as nobody thought too much about it. But as AnDromedary says, sounds anticlimactic. I'm not sure there's any universe where the Bio writers heard this idea and went "yeah, that's it!"
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 30, 2019 19:03:09 GMT
Well one they didn’t have to allow the reapers the ability to travel without needing to discharge. They could have stayed in hibernation all of me2 and 3. With me2 stopping yet another plot to wake them and ME3 being about going to dark space to destroy their relays so even if they eventually wake up they can’t leave. This would have required even more Reaper stupidity and arrogance than we already got, but I guess the series could have handled that. I'm not sure how we handwave away the Reapers being able to build a relay in a place they can't travel to, but I suppose some techhnobabnle would work as long as nobody thought too much about it. Hmmmmm, one thing is that time is not really as much of an issue for the reapers as it is for us.
They can't just travel there via FTL because of drive discharge but they could basically have launched a relay out there with non FTL (say at 0.1c or something) and then, say 100.000 years later, after the thing is 10.000ly down the road into dark space, they could connect to it and get there.
At least before Arrival, that was always my head canon as to how they set themselves up in dark space in the first place.
Of course, that does not in any way solve the problem that having a setup like this with just one sentinel in the MW and no backup plan would be entirely stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 19:29:06 GMT
Tell me, how long would it have taken the Reapers to build all the mass relays across the entire galaxy when there wasn't that many Reapers to start with and they have to first travel to those points using standard FTL and then take whatever time it takes to build a Mass Relay... and then have that all operational and wait for the first civilizations to "develop along the paths they desire" and then break off every 50,000 years to harvest all those now advanced enough civilizations in order to construct new Reapers? The other question I've had is how long were the cycles before the 50,000 year cycle began? That would give an idea of how many reapers there might be. How much closer together could the cycles get though? Ignoring reaper numbers completely, it still takes time for civilizations to rise to a point where they are capable of discovering the Citadel. Homosapiens first appeared about 315,000 years ago and only started to wear clothing 170,000 years ago, Roughly 50,000 years ago, we're somewhere in the Stone Age... and we are no where near to a point where we could discover and utilize a Mass Relay located as far away as Mars. The idea that the species come together from points across the entire galaxy (as we were clearly shown in ME1) to a single Citadel to form a galactic government every 50,000 years is, in short, preposterous. That those species are observed over that time period by a single Reaper is also preposterous.
At least you have to give it to ME:A on that front. We've been at least limited to a single cluster for now.
So, for the sake of discussion, let's divide the galaxy into different layers of interconnected relays where each set are connected to a different Citadel with a single Reaper in charge of observing each Citadel and the fleet of Reapers moving from Citadel call to Citadel call rather than hibernating in dark space. This would make more sense on a few fronts...but it would blow the idea of there being this impenetrable wall between our space and dark space that the Reapers somehow couldn't just breach easily during ME1. It also doesn't explain why the layers of the network are connected across the entire galaxy instead of clustered into separate groupings that are closer together.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 30, 2019 20:07:22 GMT
Well one they didn’t have to allow the reapers the ability to travel without needing to discharge. They could have stayed in hibernation all of me2 and 3. With me2 stopping yet another plot to wake them and ME3 being about going to dark space to destroy their relays so even if they eventually wake up they can’t leave. This would have required even more Reaper stupidity and arrogance than we already got, but I guess the series could have handled that. I'm not sure how we handwave away the Reapers being able to build a relay in a place they can't travel to, but I suppose some techhnobabnle would work as long as nobody thought too much about it. But as AnDromedary says, sounds anticlimactic. I'm not sure there's any universe where the Bio writers heard this idea and went "yeah, that's it!" von Neumann machines
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Post by melbella on Jul 31, 2019 1:00:50 GMT
So, for the sake of discussion, let's divide the galaxy into different layers of interconnected relays where each set are connected to a different Citadel with a single Reaper in charge of observing each Citadel Why do we need multiple Citadels when the one we have can move? It's probably no coincidence the Citadel was near the asari homeworld. The Reapers had access to the Prothean records so would have known the asari were being fast-tracked for development. How easy would it have been for them to plant the Citadel nearby, but not so close that the asari would find it without developing FTL travel first?
We don't know where the Prothean homeworld was located, but I would bet quite a bit the Citadel used to be stationed in its general vicinity.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 2:53:50 GMT
So, for the sake of discussion, let's divide the galaxy into different layers of interconnected relays where each set are connected to a different Citadel with a single Reaper in charge of observing each Citadel Why do we need multiple Citadels when the one we have can move? It's probably no coincidence the Citadel was near the asari homeworld. The Reapers had access to the Prothean records so would have known the asari were being fast-tracked for development. How easy would it have been for them to plant the Citadel nearby, but not so close that the asari would find it without developing FTL travel first?
We don't know where the Prothean homeworld was located, but I would bet quite a bit the Citadel used to be stationed in its general vicinity.
To enable constant harvesting of the separate relay systems. The salarians discovered the Citadel in 520 BCE, meaning that it took roughly 2700 years of development after that point for the civilizations in the ME1 gameworld to be consided "ready to harvest" by the Reapers. Furthermore, it takes another 1,000 years to complete a single harvest. That means that if there was only one Citadel, there would be 3,000 to 4,000 years where there would be no Citadel available in any individual Relay layer to be discovered. If, say, there were even just 3 or 4, then harvests could be continuous, provided there are 50,000 relay layers in the entire galaxy, instead one new capital reaper being made every 50,000 years, we could get 50,000 of them being made every 50,000 years (1 for every 1,000-year harvest. Instead of a 50,000-year dormant state (totally inefficient use of a machine culture), there would be constant "production" with a big proviso.
Which is - Provided that civilization could rise to "ready" status every 50,000 years in every Relay layer... which is the "fly in the lotion." To allow for a 200,000-year development cycle for each civilization, there would have to be many more "younger civilizations" at various points in their300,000-year evolution that are left alone during each harvest (i.e. any civilizations not within 50,000 years of becoming advanced enough to consider harvesting... Which is a flaw in the notion of the Yahg and the Vorcha not being harvested during ME's cycle, since they are clearly well out of the Stone Age that the humans would have been in when the Protheans were being harvested. That is, both of those civilizations are going to be ready to be harvested long before the game tells use the Reapers will return to harvest them.
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Post by melbella on Jul 31, 2019 3:05:01 GMT
It sounds like you're arguing that the Reapers aren't very smart. Which is something we already knew.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 3:21:11 GMT
It sounds like you're arguing that the Reapers aren't very smart. Which is something we already knew. No, I'm arguing that the premise even as it is presented in ME1 is deeply flawed. I believe others here have already been suggesting that the Reapers are stupid.
The subsequent games try to account for the discrepancies in the Reaper premise, but wind up really only making matters worse. Instead of a huge, open-space galaxy, we have an inadequate one that is mysteriously "walled off" from the remaining 99.99999% of it despite having outposts in all quadrants of it. We have machines that are said to deliberately head off to do nothing for 50,000 years at a time, leaving a single sentry to enable their return after all that hiatus. It makes no sense. Furthermore, the timelines make no sense. That Sovereign would tell Shepard that the Reapers are legion when that doesn't appear to be possible given the timeline as represented in ME1... makes no sense.
I don't believe it was just ME3's endings thate "ruined" the Milky Way galaxy. The galactic mess started right with ME1.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 5:21:02 GMT
It's difficult to come up with a good-faith interpretation of MEU events that doesn't lead to thinking of the Reapers as being, if not actually stupid, then at least non-rational. When I'm not actively engaged in poking holes in the premise, I'm likely to engage in a bit of strategic handwaving. For instance, the 50,000 year figure is just a best-guess average based on a very limited data set of a few recent harvests. I've never been able to do anything with the horrible inefficiency of the Reapers' farming of sapients, so I just refuse to think about it.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 5:26:15 GMT
This would have required even more Reaper stupidity and arrogance than we already got, but I guess the series could have handled that. I'm not sure how we handwave away the Reapers being able to build a relay in a place they can't travel to, but I suppose some techhnobabnle would work as long as nobody thought too much about it. But as AnDromedary says, sounds anticlimactic. I'm not sure there's any universe where the Bio writers heard this idea and went "yeah, that's it!" von Neumann machines I guess they could find enough matter to make this work even in darkspace, although it would take forever to hunt it up. Hmmm... then again, why not send the matter there instead of searching for it? Instead of building a relay at the destination, fly a working one to the destination. Can't run out of anything that way.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 5:32:20 GMT
The other question I've had is how long were the cycles before the 50,000 year cycle began? That would give an idea of how many reapers there might be. How much closer together could the cycles get though? Ignoring reaper numbers completely, it still takes time for civilizations to rise to a point where they are capable of discovering the Citadel. Homosapiens first appeared about 315,000 years ago and only started to wear clothing 170,000 years ago, Roughly 50,000 years ago, we're somewhere in the Stone Age... and we are no where near to a point where we could discover and utilize a Mass Relay located as far away as Mars. If we're really looking for efficiency, why do the Reapers tolerate such delays? They could bring races out of the Stone Age any time they wanted to. The only reason not to would be if they already have enough races which are on their way to technology for the current cycle, but then the 50,000 year figure makes no sense at all. (Unless humans are super-geniuses and it took everybody else 50,000 years to go from farming to space travel. Arthur C. Clarke did something like this in "Rescue Party."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 10:32:22 GMT
How much closer together could the cycles get though? Ignoring reaper numbers completely, it still takes time for civilizations to rise to a point where they are capable of discovering the Citadel. Homosapiens first appeared about 315,000 years ago and only started to wear clothing 170,000 years ago, Roughly 50,000 years ago, we're somewhere in the Stone Age... and we are no where near to a point where we could discover and utilize a Mass Relay located as far away as Mars. If we're really looking for efficiency, why do the Reapers tolerate such delays? They could bring races out of the Stone Age any time they wanted to. The only reason not to would be if they already have enough races which are on their way to technology for the current cycle, but then the 50,000 year figure makes no sense at all. (Unless humans are super-geniuses and it took everybody else 50,000 years to go from farming to space travel. Arthur C. Clarke did something like this in "Rescue Party." I never got the impression in game that the Reapers were capable of manipulating the time frame by speeding up the evolution of any of the species. The impression I got is that they just planted the Citadel in a position where it would eventually be discovered once the civilizations, one their own, developed space travel. If they were capable of fast tracking the evolution of organics, than why not just grow continuous crops in a single planet?
Then there's the confusing conundrum introduced in ME3 that describes them as searching the cosmos for an answe to the organic/synthetic issuer. It's hard to search for an answer when you're manipulating development. If the organics are only being allowed to develop along the lines desired by the Reapers and that development track is always the same, then the Reapers can't expect a unique and different solution to emerge. (Definition of insanity, if they do expect a different result from performing the same experiment over and over again.) So, this opens the question of whether each "Relay layer" in the galaxy is being manipulated in a different way... each a inuqie experiment series. In fact, not every "Relay layer" would necessarily rely on mass relays. That is, different tech = different experimental parameters.
This could then tie in what was happening in Andromeda to a Reaper issue. The kett/remnant being part of a different Reaper-made petri dish... one that has now become contaminated by the contents of the MEU petri dish (ie. humans, salarians, asari and turians).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 10:40:12 GMT
If anything, the whole Cerberus plot was way too much if a distraction from the actually interesting theaters of war we could have been in. Oh, man. PREACH!
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 31, 2019 10:45:44 GMT
If anything, the whole Cerberus plot was way too much if a distraction from the actually interesting theaters of war we could have been in. Oh, man. PREACH!Cerberus was increasingly unbelievable. Some sort of shadow empire. Must have had some kind of magic credit spring to finance all the secret bases. Even fleets!
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 31, 2019 10:46:23 GMT
However - gameplay-wise I enjoyed combat vs Cerberus most.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 11:05:04 GMT
Assuming DA is sticking to its new PC rule, this shouldn't matter That's not what I'm talking about. A player finished DA:I and never got around to playing the DLC. They are accustomed to Solas as a teammate, but have no idea what is up with Trespasser. So they start DA4, with a new PC and find themselves fighting against Solas. Aren't they, quite understandably, lost? Ultimately, sure, it doesn't matter how, but imagine finding out that the real ending of Inquisition was locked behind DLC and even after all these years you still have to pay $30 for it. I just checked the price, as well. $30 for a three year old DLC. Bra-fucking-vo EA.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 11:05:55 GMT
Well, except for the teammate part, that describes Corypheus in DAI to a "T" Corypheus didn't remind me of Billy Zane ...
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 31, 2019 11:29:19 GMT
Cerberus was increasingly unbelievable. Some sort of shadow empire. Must have had some kind of magic credit spring to finance all the secret bases. Even fleets! They're pretty much retconned into having had big ships in the 2160s by now (ME: Evolution, second page from the end).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 12:18:11 GMT
They're pretty much retconned into having had big ships in the 2160s by now (ME: Evolution, second page from the end). That is not exactly the problem I have with them, as an enemy faction.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 12:37:48 GMT
This would have required even more Reaper stupidity and arrogance than we already got, but I guess the series could have handled that. I'm not sure how we handwave away the Reapers being able to build a relay in a place they can't travel to, but I suppose some techhnobabnle would work as long as nobody thought too much about it. Hmmmmm, one thing is that time is not really as much of an issue for the reapers as it is for us.
They can't just travel there via FTL because of drive discharge but they could basically have launched a relay out there with non FTL (say at 0.1c or something) and then, say 100.000 years later, after the thing is 10.000ly down the road into dark space, they could connect to it and get there.
At least before Arrival, that was always my head canon as to how they set themselves up in dark space in the first place.
Of course, that does not in any way solve the problem that having a setup like this with just one sentinel in the MW and no backup plan would be entirely stupid. What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Basically, there is a number of Mass Relays, mirroring the ones in the MW, but the Reapers simply hibernated to the closest one linking to the Citadel and waited for the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay, and with Sovereign being left behind as their backup plan and the Collectors being plan C. When plan B failed, though, they also started moving to the next relay, which we blew up in Arrival. However, since they were in mid transit, they were left stranded in space, but still a lot closer than before, which is why they so inconspicuously infiltrated the Milky Way, at first, indoctrinating the Batarian hegemony and from there, starting a Blitzkrieg throughout the many other star systems.
Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 13:26:03 GMT
Cerberus was increasingly unbelievable. Some sort of shadow empire. Must have had some kind of magic credit spring to finance all the secret bases. Even fleets! TIM found the Star Forge. It is known.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 13:26:45 GMT
I guess they could find enough matter to make this work even in darkspace, although it would take forever to hunt it up. The machines themselves could be the matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 13:47:38 GMT
Hmmmmm, one thing is that time is not really as much of an issue for the reapers as it is for us.
They can't just travel there via FTL because of drive discharge but they could basically have launched a relay out there with non FTL (say at 0.1c or something) and then, say 100.000 years later, after the thing is 10.000ly down the road into dark space, they could connect to it and get there.
At least before Arrival, that was always my head canon as to how they set themselves up in dark space in the first place.
Of course, that does not in any way solve the problem that having a setup like this with just one sentinel in the MW and no backup plan would be entirely stupid. What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Basically, there is a number of Mass Relays, mirroring the ones in the MW, but the Reapers simply hibernated to the closest one linking to the Citadel and waited for the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay, and with Sovereign being left behind as their backup plan and the Collectors being plan C. When plan B failed, though, they also started moving to the next relay, which we blew up in Arrival. However, since they were in mid transit, they were left stranded in space, but still a lot closer than before, which is why they so inconspicuously infiltrated the Milky Way, at first, indoctrinating the Batarian hegemony and from there, starting a Blitzkrieg throughout the many other star systems.
Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
The subatomic particles still have to become entangled in the first place... which means they start out in the same place being bombarded together by, say, a laser beam that causes them to split into entangled pairs. That's why one had to be installed aboard the SR2 and the other installed in TIM's office. It's not like either of the two (SR2 or TIM's office) popped into existence magically. The problem of building something or having something built in a location where you've never been or gone remains. The problem of how to either gather materials in that location or transport materials to that location in order to construct the relays remains... and relays are massive.
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 31, 2019 13:54:49 GMT
Hmmmmm, one thing is that time is not really as much of an issue for the reapers as it is for us. They can't just travel there via FTL because of drive discharge but they could basically have launched a relay out there with non FTL (say at 0.1c or something) and then, say 100.000 years later, after the thing is 10.000ly down the road into dark space, they could connect to it and get there. At least before Arrival, that was always my head canon as to how they set themselves up in dark space in the first place. Of course, that does not in any way solve the problem that having a setup like this with just one sentinel in the MW and no backup plan would be entirely stupid. What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
No. ME2 didn't give a fuck about it in its deconstruction of the Reapers but quantum entanglement can't be even used to communication, not to mention building something from distance.
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 14:41:00 GMT
What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
No. ME2 didn't give a fuck about it in its deconstruction of the Reapers but quantum entanglement can't be even used to communication, not to mention building something from distance. ME2 took liberties with quantum entanglement, but at least kept it reasonable. QECs were hideously expensive to build, and had limited bandwidth which limited information transfer. Later games turned it into futuristic Skype.
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