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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 31, 2019 14:55:17 GMT
If anything, the whole Cerberus plot was way too much if a distraction from the actually interesting theaters of war we could have been in. Oh, man. PREACH!Trouble is that the game basically set theaters of war up for failure anyway. Even Hackett saying that everything was just a delaying action for whatever Shepard was doing.
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 15:01:20 GMT
What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Basically, there is a number of Mass Relays, mirroring the ones in the MW, but the Reapers simply hibernated to the closest one linking to the Citadel and waited for the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay, and with Sovereign being left behind as their backup plan and the Collectors being plan C. When plan B failed, though, they also started moving to the next relay, which we blew up in Arrival. However, since they were in mid transit, they were left stranded in space, but still a lot closer than before, which is why they so inconspicuously infiltrated the Milky Way, at first, indoctrinating the Batarian hegemony and from there, starting a Blitzkrieg throughout the many other star systems.
Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
The subatomic particles still have to become entangled in the first place... which means they start out in the same place being bombarded together by, say, a laser beam that causes them to split into entangled pairs. That's why one had to be installed aboard the SR2 and the other installed in TIM's office. It's not like either of the two (SR2 or TIM's office) popped into existence magically. The problem of building something or having something built in a location where you've never been or gone remains. The problem of how to either gather materials in that location or transport materials to that location in order to construct the relays remains... and relays are massive. Spooky action at a distance, though, could happen. You'd, practically, need only 1 relay constructed into deep space and you could, theoretically, shoot enough to create a mini relay, like the Conduit. The problem posed would be shooting the particles blindly into dark space and, well, stopping them. Oh, but you wouldn't have to, would you? You could just build a conduit out of quantum entangled particles, then cheat into shooting it around , through Mass Relays, till the other quantum entangled one has traversed enough into Dark Space to fit your quota. A pretty uninspired solution, though, isn't it?
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2019 15:12:48 GMT
Trouble is that the game basically set theaters of war up for failure anyway. Even Hackett saying that everything was just a delaying action for whatever Shepard was doing. Yet, if ems is high enough, when checking on war assets in the war room, it will say a 50/50 chance against the reapers.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 31, 2019 15:15:45 GMT
ME2 took liberties with quantum entanglement, but at least kept it reasonable. QECs were hideously expensive to build, and had limited bandwidth which limited information transfer. Later games turned it into futuristic Skype. The yes-no part is much more important than the extent: ME1 had a feasible explanation for the Reapers' success: QE communication does not exist, everything relies on the comm buoys, which rely on the mass relays in return. By sacking the Citadel, the Reapers cut all interstellar communications; everything goes dark and then they go system-by-system, always by surprise, destroying everything they want without substantial losses. The Protheans were more advanced and created a sort of interstellar communication that doesn't need the relays – that's why the Eden Prime finding was so important. Using this, they managed to at least piece together some resistance and this is why Ilos knew to stay silent. Since ME2, there's no good explanation for how the Reapers succeed if one planetary cannon hit can kill a capital ship. This is much more important than whether Cerberus has one QEC or tens of them. The "limited bandwith" part is pretty much bullshit, one qubit stores as much information as any finite number of them. There could be an issue with preparing quantum states with arbitrary precision but it's far-fetched.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:29:45 GMT
Trouble is that the game basically set theaters of war up for failure anyway. Even Hackett saying that everything was just a delaying action for whatever Shepard was doing. Right. It's like early 1942 in the Pacific theater. Success means going out like the US did in Bataan, failure means going out like the Brits did in Singapore.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:38:54 GMT
Trouble is that the game basically set theaters of war up for failure anyway. Even Hackett saying that everything was just a delaying action for whatever Shepard was doing. Yet, if ems is high enough, when checking on war assets in the war room, it will say a 50/50 chance against the reapers. That's a 50/50 chance for the final mission to deliver the Crucible succeeding, isn't it?
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:43:01 GMT
If we're really looking for efficiency, why do the Reapers tolerate such delays? They could bring races out of the Stone Age any time they wanted to. The only reason not to would be if they already have enough races which are on their way to technology for the current cycle, but then the 50,000 year figure makes no sense at all. (Unless humans are super-geniuses and it took everybody else 50,000 years to go from farming to space travel. Arthur C. Clarke did something like this in "Rescue Party." I never got the impression in game that the Reapers were capable of manipulating the time frame by speeding up the evolution of any of the species. The impression I got is that they just planted the Citadel in a position where it would eventually be discovered once the civilizations, one their own, developed space travel. If they were capable of fast tracking the evolution of organics, than why not just grow continuous crops in a single planet?
I wasn't actually thinking about manipulating evolution. Yeah, it looks like the Reapers either can't or just won't do that. But anatomically and behaviorally modern homo sapiens were around for many millennia before we finally got our act together. Just like us, but without technology. I don't see anything preventing the Reapers from showing them how to farm, smelt metals, etc.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2019 15:44:50 GMT
Is it for the crucible?
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:46:42 GMT
Yes, it is. And obviously so.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2019 15:54:16 GMT
Yet when the odds are much lower, the result is still the same, the reapers are defeated.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:58:41 GMT
Assuming DA is sticking to its new PC rule, this shouldn't matter That's not what I'm talking about. A player finished DA:I and never got around to playing the DLC. They are accustomed to Solas as a teammate, but have no idea what is up with Trespasser. So they start DA4, with a new PC and find themselves fighting against Solas. Aren't they, quite understandably, lost? Ultimately, sure, it doesn't matter how, but imagine finding out that the real ending of Inquisition was locked behind DLC and even after all these years you still have to pay $30 for it. I just checked the price, as well. $30 for a three year old DLC. Bra-fucking-vo EA. $30 isn't really mandatory. You can play it on Access for $15, or just watch it for free on YouTube if your only concern is to know what happened in it. Or just read a summary on the wiki, even. Or you can do none of those things. A new player can't be actually lost, because the new PC won't be lost. The game will tell him what his PC knows. If anything, the new player will be better off than a returning player because he won't have OOC knowledge. He won't know how Solas got from point A to point B, but what of it? An ME3 player who played ME1 but not ME2 wouldn't know who the hell all these new characters are. Them's the breaks. Also, note that anybody who completes DAI knows, or should know, that Solas wasn't just a teammate. It'd help if we had one of these hypothetical players around, I guess. I'm close, since I've never played or watched Legacy -- that's the correct name, right? -- and only read about it after playing DAI. Varric and Hawke told my Inquisitor everything he, and I, needed to know.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 15:59:49 GMT
Yet when the odds are much lower, the result is still the same, the reapers are defeated. Sure. What's your point? It's not like the game is going to actually roll dice behind the scenes and have us lose the battle in a cutscene, just like Saren's never going to beat Shepard to the Conduit by enough time to win ME1 outright. If you think that the game was trying to tell you that beating the Reapers in a straight-up fight was doable, you are very confused.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 16:05:46 GMT
It'd help if we had one of these hypothetical players around, I guess I can tell you my reaction when I found out. Whether I found out about it in the actual DA4 or it was spoiled to me, has little bearing. I don't like it, I can tell you that much.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 16:07:33 GMT
The subatomic particles still have to become entangled in the first place... which means they start out in the same place being bombarded together by, say, a laser beam that causes them to split into entangled pairs. That's why one had to be installed aboard the SR2 and the other installed in TIM's office. It's not like either of the two (SR2 or TIM's office) popped into existence magically. The problem of building something or having something built in a location where you've never been or gone remains. The problem of how to either gather materials in that location or transport materials to that location in order to construct the relays remains... and relays are massive. Spooky action at a distance, though, could happen. You'd, practically, need only 1 relay constructed into deep space and you could, theoretically, shoot enough to create a mini relay, like the Conduit. The problem posed would be shooting the particles blindly into dark space and, well, stopping them. Oh, but you wouldn't have to, would you? You could just build a conduit out of quantum entangled particles, then cheat into shooting it around , through Mass Relays, till the other quantum entangled one has traversed enough into Dark Space to fit your quota. A pretty uninspired solution, though, isn't it? Mass Relays are not just composed of a ray or quota of subatomic particles. They are massive and complex structures. The Conduit was first built on Ilos and then, at some point before the Reaper attack, it was placed on the Citadel as a prototype. According to Vigil, it was then used by the scientists after the attack to gain access to the Citadel (to alter the keeper signal), but it was a one-way trip.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 16:09:40 GMT
What about Quantum Entanglement? Through spooky action at a distance, creating a Mass Relay in the MW galaxy, also creates another one, somewhere in Dark Space. Am I making sense? I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.
No. ME2 didn't give a fuck about it in its deconstruction of the Reapers but quantum entanglement can't be even used to communication, not to mention building something from distance. While my knowladge of quantum physics is pretty limited, I am not sure the theorem necessarily prohibits QECs as described by EDI/the codex in ME2. As UpUp said, the two particles are together when entangled. Thus, their initial state can be affected by both parties that later on use the spatially separated system to communicate. Since one of the assumptions of the no-communication theorem is that neither of the later observers Allice and Bob are allowed to affect the initial state of the system, and since we cannot rule that out for whatever way they use in the ME universe to create QECs in the first place, the theorem may not apply here. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here. This is just my interpretation without really understanding all the math behind it to be honest.
However, I'd agree with UpUp and you, that it would be tough to explain, even with all the softer scifi shenanigans employed in ME, how to "remotely clone" matter through quantum entanglement, especially if as EDI mentions, just generating a system that can transmit 1 qbit worth of data is already prohibitively expensive.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 16:15:45 GMT
Spooky action at a distance, though, could happen. You'd, practically, need only 1 relay constructed into deep space and you could, theoretically, shoot enough to create a mini relay, like the Conduit. The problem posed would be shooting the particles blindly into dark space and, well, stopping them. Oh, but you wouldn't have to, would you? You could just build a conduit out of quantum entangled particles, then cheat into shooting it around , through Mass Relays, till the other quantum entangled one has traversed enough into Dark Space to fit your quota. A pretty uninspired solution, though, isn't it? Mass Relays are not just composed of a ray or quota of subatomic particles. They are massive and complex structures. The Conduit was first built on Ilos and then, at some point before the Reaper attack, it was placed on the Citadel as a prototype. According to Vigil, it was then used by the scientists after the attack to gain access to the Citadel (to alter the keeper signal), but it was a one-way trip. That doesn't mean it isn't doable, though, in that way, just incredibly complex, at least for the MW tech. Perhaps not as complex for the Reapers.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 31, 2019 16:22:21 GMT
While my knowladge of quantum physics is pretty limited, I am not sure the theorem necessarily prohibits QECs as described by EDI/the codex in ME2. As UpUp said, the two particles are together when entangled. Thus, their initial state can be affected by both parties that later on use the spatially separated system to communicate. Since one of the assumptions of the no-communication theorem is that neither of the later observers Allice and Bob are allowed to affect the initial state of the system, and since we cannot rule that out for whatever way they use in the ME universe to create QECs in the first place, the theorem may not apply here. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here. This is just my interpretation without really understanding all the math behind it to be honest.
The "no participation in preparation" caveat says just that "if you wrote something before, you can read it later". But this does not yet allow for communication if the information to be sent is specified when the observers with their entangled parts are already separated.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 16:28:04 GMT
It'd help if we had one of these hypothetical players around, I guess I can tell you my reaction when I found out. Whether I found out about it in the actual DA4 or it was spoiled to me, has little bearing. I don't like it, I can tell you that much You never played Trespasser, and didn't like hearing that Solas ended up as an adversary at the end of Trespasser? OK, but... where did you think that Solas was going to end up? After you found out that Solas was Fen'Harel, and had been lying to everyone about everything the whole time, you still thought that your Inquisitor's relationship with him could be trusted? I'm also not particularly comfortable with the idea that DLCs can't do anything interesting or important, plot-wise.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 16:35:24 GMT
You never played Trespasser, and didn't like hearing that Solas ended up as an adversary at the end of Trespasser? OK, but... where did you think that Solas was going to end up? I didn't particularly care, because I didn't like Solas. He could go fornicate with a cactus, for all I cared. I'm also not particularly comfortable with the idea that DLCs can't do anything interesting or important, plot-wise. If your content is critical and paywalled, it shouldn't. If its free, go ahead.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 16:51:26 GMT
So you were angry about not seeing some reveals about a character you didn't care about?
And it isn't critical. Everything critical for DA4 will be in DA4, everything critical for DAI was in DAI.
All game content is paywalled, in one place or another. You seem to be saying that DLCs can't do anything interesting because someone might not buy them. But that's true for full games as well; someone might not buy every game in a series. What's the difference?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 16:59:22 GMT
While my knowladge of quantum physics is pretty limited, I am not sure the theorem necessarily prohibits QECs as described by EDI/the codex in ME2. As UpUp said, the two particles are together when entangled. Thus, their initial state can be affected by both parties that later on use the spatially separated system to communicate. Since one of the assumptions of the no-communication theorem is that neither of the later observers Allice and Bob are allowed to affect the initial state of the system, and since we cannot rule that out for whatever way they use in the ME universe to create QECs in the first place, the theorem may not apply here. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here. This is just my interpretation without really understanding all the math behind it to be honest.
The "no participation in preparation" caveat says just that "if you wrote something before, you can read it later". But this does not yet allow for communication if the information to be sent is specified when the observers with their entangled parts are already separated. Hm, fair enough. I guess one really has to go back to the Mass Effect to try and explain how it can work. After all, we are talking about a universe where we have a substance that basically allows us to generate pockets of space-time where the value of c is effectively changed (hence FTL travel). Who knows what it would do to entangled particles if one of them is subjected to an ME field.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 31, 2019 16:59:45 GMT
So you were angry about not seeing some reveals about a character you didn't care about? I found it absurd, basically. If that makes me angry, sure. I just wish Solas was left out, completely. I wish he'd fuck off to somewhere, never to be seen again. Shit, I don't even know what Fen'Harel is, or why should I care about him. Especially since its Solas. All game content is paywalled, in one place or another. I'd expect game and sequel critical content to be in the base game. Trespasser, which is admittedly the real ending to DA:I, I'd have expected it to be in DA:I, not paywalled into some DLC.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 17:03:59 GMT
So you were angry about not seeing some reveals about a character you didn't care about? And it isn't critical. Everything critical for DA4 will be in DA4, everything critical for DAI was in DAI. All game content is paywalled, in one place or another. You seem to be saying that DLCs can't do anything interesting because someone might not buy them. But that's true for full games as well; someone might not buy every game in a series. What's the difference? Ultimately, it depends on what exactly DA4 is about. I mean, DA2 ended with the mage/Templar war kicking off, but in DAI it's not much more than a plot hook to explain why you're at the Temple of Sacred Ashes at the start of the game. The whole conflict is essentially resolved before the halfway mark of the game. Where the REAL Big Bad shows up. It might be Solas will only be the Disc-One Final Boss
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 17:05:20 GMT
The "no participation in preparation" caveat says just that "if you wrote something before, you can read it later". But this does not yet allow for communication if the information to be sent is specified when the observers with their entangled parts are already separated. Hm, fair enough. I guess one really has to go back to the Mass Effect to try and explain how it can work. After all, we are talking about a universe where we have a substance that basically allows us to generate pockets of space-time where the value of c is effectively changed (hence FTL travel). Who knows what it would do to entangled particles if one of them is subjected to an ME field. Indeed. I don't mind "soft" scifi. What I care about is that the rules, whatever they are, be applied consistently.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 31, 2019 17:06:18 GMT
Trouble is that the game basically set theaters of war up for failure anyway. Even Hackett saying that everything was just a delaying action for whatever Shepard was doing. Yet, if ems is high enough, when checking on war assets in the war room, it will say a 50/50 chance against the reapers. That's just part of the game narrative, but that doesn't really have to do with the other theaters of war in the events of ME3. Any place where the reaper forces are the most focused are essentially doomed. Palaven and Thessia are good examples. There's nothing Shepard or anyone else can do there except extract someone or something important and get out before they die. Those places are toast, and no amount of infantrymen are going to change that. Everything happening is just slowing them down a little bit so Hackett's fleet can hide out and continue building the Crucible.
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