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Post by General Mahad on Mar 26, 2024 15:13:00 GMT
I just realized something about the Anvil of the Void. What if it was never created by Caridin but was instead discovered by him in an Elven ruin? A long lost toy from one of Ghilan'nain’s little shops of horrors.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Mar 26, 2024 21:31:52 GMT
So I’ve been thinking. We are likely going to have backgrounds from different countries. BioWare has been focusing on bringing the characters and their different worlds to life. What if our PC has that same variation? If you think about it, from the rumored backgrounds, an Antivan Crow would be vastly different in personality and experience than a Grey Warden from the Anderfels - but both would be capable of being a hero. It would be even more immersive if our Antivan Crow had an Antivan accent.
This is more of wishful thinking than a theory but I think the idea sounds fun.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 27, 2024 14:22:01 GMT
I just realized something about the Anvil of the Void. What if it was never created by Caridin but was instead discovered by him in an Elven ruin? A long lost toy from one of Ghilan'nain’s little shops of horrors. It is entirely possible. I seem to recall this was suggested once before but I wondered if it was actually connected with June rather than Ghil. He was the Evanuris particularly associated with crafting and his images seem to show him with something that looks like an anvil. So even if the anvil was crafted by Caradin, he may have found the blue-print in some elven ruins or very old memories in Kal-Sharok. Incidentally, the fact it was called the Anvil of the Void would seem significant. I can see why you might associate it with Ghil, though, considering how horrific the ritual is for creating the Golems. Still she seems more interested in hybrid creatures, whereas the Golem is more of a construct. That's why I would favour June as its creator.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 27, 2024 14:28:48 GMT
So I’ve been thinking. We are likely going to have backgrounds from different countries. I suppose the biggest problem would be the cost of implementing this. Not only would they need different dialogues for the backgrounds (which they did in DAO and DAI) but if they had different accents as well, that would result in considerably more VA work, which is where the majority of the cost would probably lie. They would also need some sort of origin story if the player was going to fully immerse themselves in the role. That was one of the things I found a bit disappointing with DAI and the backgrounds. It was okay for established players as we had two previous games to draw on but I wonder if new players would really understand the different backgrounds sufficiently without something to ease them in. Don't get me wrong, I would enjoy this approach but I just think the practicalities and costs would restrict its implementation.
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 28, 2024 0:49:08 GMT
Speaking of the Void, how likely is it that Void Magic exists? Also how likely is it that Blood Magic is actually just a branch of Void Magic?
Lyrium Magic is basically Fade Magic that uses Lyrium as a conduit for channeling said Magic right? What if Void Magic is actually the same except using life force or suffering as the conduit (with Lyrium) to reach the Void where the Forgotten Ones dwell as well as their forbidden magical arts. That would explain the connection between the Anvil, Blood Magic, Darkspawn taint and Red Lyrium alike.
Thematically, it also would make sense since the Forgotten Ones allegedly rule over disease, suffering and terror all of which are perfect descriptions of the Anvil, Blood Magic, Darkspawn Taint and Red Lyrium. It would also explain why Elven cults of the Forgotten Ones would commit sacrifices for strength. Not only that, but the Empty Ones believed that that the Blight came from the Void and was a considered a blessing.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2024 1:39:16 GMT
So I’ve been thinking. We are likely going to have backgrounds from different countries. BioWare has been focusing on bringing the characters and their different worlds to life. What if our PC has that same variation? If you think about it, from the rumored backgrounds, an Antivan Crow would be vastly different in personality and experience than a Grey Warden from the Anderfels - but both would be capable of being a hero. It would be even more immersive if our Antivan Crow had an Antivan accent. This is more of wishful thinking than a theory but I think the idea sounds fun. This is probably the biggest outstanding issue that I am dying for them to get to in marketing how they intend to deal with any potential backgrounds or origin stories. On the one hand I can see it. They are sort of really playing up the faction angle within the marketing and Tevinter Nights of these factions running all around the place and in the trailers and what not does seem to be pointing in that direction and with the various countries we're going to as confirmed in Thedas Calls. However keeping expecxtations in check and it is important to remember the simplist explanation is probably the best way to look at it and they have said they aren't going to do full origin stories before so it could easily end up just being like Inquisition where we are representatives of these factions at some sort of central inciting incident. That and some of the faction choices would be a bit odd to be playable if we consider what they said that the protagonist action will be someone that A. SOlas will never see coming and B. are not within the power structures of Thedas. The Grey Wardens certainly have a lot of influence within the setting so they would seem to be the odd ones out. And then the Crows are kind of a grey area given that they too sort of are a mover and shaker behind the scenes and thus seem contradictory and even if Solas didn't mention them as the Bard in The Dreadwolf Take You he has to be aware of their existance. Though on the other other hand its also noteworthy that despite their influence both the Crows and the Wardens have also been handicapped of late. Speaking of the Void, how likely is it that Void Magic exists? Also how likely is it that Blood Magic is actually just a branch of Void Magic? Lyrium Magic is basically Fade Magic that uses Lyrium as a conduit for channeling said Magic right? What if Void Magic is actually the same except using life force or suffering as the conduit (with Lyrium) to reach the Void where the Forgotten Ones dwell as well as their forbidden magical arts. That would explain the connection between the Anvil, Blood Magic, Darkspawn taint and Red Lyrium alike. Thematically, it also would make sense since the Forgotten Ones allegedly rule over disease, suffering and terror all of which are perfect descriptions of the Anvil, Blood Magic, Darkspawn Taint and Red Lyrium. It would also explain why Elven cults of the Forgotten Ones would commit sacrifices for strength. Not only that, but the Empty Ones believed that that the Blight came from the Void and was a considered a blessing. I actually find it much more likely that Blood Magic and Red Lyrium are related to the VOid rather then it being an entirely seperate school of magic per se. Mark Darrah did say something like they have made a consious effort to sort of trim down the amounts of magical sources in later DA games to everything basically being influenced by the Fade/ Lyrium in order to simplify things. However this does not presuppose that Red Lyrium, Lyrium, and Blood Magic can't have anything to do with the Void either as their definitley seems to be an opposition building up within the various forms of magic or...magical mediums...although those forms also seem to be complementary as well considering the ancient Elves even used Lyrium in addition to their fade magic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 28, 2024 16:39:28 GMT
Speaking of the Void, how likely is it that Void Magic exists? Also how likely is it that Blood Magic is actually just a branch of Void Magic? It depends on whether you believe Solas concerning blood magic. He said blood magic was no more dangerous or evil than other magic when used properly. To be honest, whilst Cassandra would never admit it, the ability of some Seekers to set the lyrium aflame in mages (and Templars I assume as well) strikes me as very similar to the blood magic spell blood wound which boils the blood in their veins. So I think does have more to do with channeling spirits from the Fade than the Void. However, if we go by the novel Last Flight then Isseya could tell that the blood mage was drawing their power from somewhere other than the Fade. That could be because it was coming via a spirit/demon or from the Void. I actually find it much more likely that Blood Magic and Red Lyrium are related to the VOid rather then it being an entirely seperate school of magic per se. Red lyrium and Void magic are definitely connected. They made that clear in the Last Flight that the Arch-demon was drawing its power from some unknown source, so that would seem likely to be the Void, bearing in mind all the connections that have been made between the Void and the Blight. There is also the conversation between Solas and Vivienne to consider. She spots the fact that Corypheus is drawing his magical power from three different sources, his own magic, the elven orb and the blight. Now if we assume his own normal magic is blood magic, then that makes it come from a different source to the blight magic. Vivienne also comments that he objects to the use of blight magic by the Wardens but not blood magic. Again, he says that properly used, blood magic is no more dangerous than normal magic but blight magic, like the blight itself, corrupts everything it touches and only a madman would think they could use it safely. So on the whole, unless they have decided to retcon it for simplicity there are 3 types of magic: Fade Magic - draws its power from the Fade Blood Magic - draws its power from the life force of the victim Blight/Void magic -draws its power from the Void
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 28, 2024 21:23:55 GMT
This is fascinating, to think there’s been another source of magic under our noses the whole time…assuming it is true.
Now here’s the crazy thing, we all know that the Blight came from the Black City but what if the Black City is also a gateway to the Void Itself? I think Solas made a pact with the Forgotten Ones and they created the Idol to war against the false Elven Gods. Solas used Void Magic through the idol to not only create the veil but open a gateway to the Void to seal the False Gods hence the Blackening. Since then, the city has been described as so monstrous that even the most powerful Fade Creatures don’t go near it.
I also have another theory, the Void has been bleeding into the Fade for ages. I think Solas knew that the hunger of the Void would eventually devour the Fade and open the veil to Thedas but he could use the Idol to control this destruction as well as to halt the False Elven Gods who would no doubt be unleashed if the Veil collapses.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 28, 2024 21:25:58 GMT
Could the Warden who killed Dumat have been a Magister Sidereal? This is what their armour looked like apparently And if so, would that mean mean they were immune to the Warden Sacrifice required and/or Calling?
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 28, 2024 23:17:37 GMT
Could the Warden who killed Dumat have been a Magister Sidereal? This is what their armour looked like apparently And if so, would that mean mean they were immune to the Warden Sacrifice required and/or Calling? I have a theory. The first Grey Warden was a Magister who got corrupted by the Blight through Void Magic as well as Fade Magic. In the Black City, the Magisters figure out the truth of the veil and of their existence. Through this corruption as void creatures, they learn that they have the ability to act as getaways for powerful Souls to pass through. I presume that the souls of the Old Gods act as anchors or barriers to prevent the imprisoned False Gods from escaping and to keep the Void that I theorize to be in the Black City in check. By sending the Souls of the Old Gods into the Void, the Void becomes powerful and more active. The Order of the Grey Warden were created to facilitate the transfer of the Souls of the Old Gods to the Void. Grey Wardens die because they are not Soulless creatures yet so the Soul of the Gray Warden grabs the Soul of the Old God and takes it into the Void hence death. I presume the very First Gray Warden did this process and either resurfaced from a Darkspawn, possessed a fellow Gray Warden or contained the Soul within their being to be transferred to the Void at a later time. There’s also the possibly they performed a ritual where a child was a conceived with the soul of an Old God. I presume the Magistrates’ souls work like Corphy and can easily transfer to any blighted creature upon death NOT from a Gray Warden.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 29, 2024 0:46:17 GMT
So on the whole, unless they have decided to retcon it for simplicity there are 3 types of magic: Fade Magic - draws its power from the Fade Blood Magic - draws its power from the life force of the victim Blight/Void magic -draws its power from the Void There is also the "not-magic" of the titans that granted valta telekinetic power and is used to reinforce reality by Templars. Presumably their connection to the titans is also what gives dwarves a resistance to fade magic. But Titan power might amount to the same thing as one of the three others. It might be that titan magic is the power of the the physical plane's/their own lifeforce, and blood magic is just how fade-magic using mages and spirits have leaned to access that life energy from Thedas. Making it something like 1. Fade/Spirit, 2. Life/Earth, 3. Void/Eldritch/blight/vacuum? Or it might be that "the void" is a derogitary term for how titan Power blocks out fade magic, that when Andruil stalked the abyss that just meant underground areas under the titans influence where fade magic didn't work, making her armour of the void simply Lyrium armour. And the blight's apparant connection to the void is because it comes from a corrupted or dead Titan. 1. Fade/Spirit 2. Blood/life force 3. Titan/Void
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 29, 2024 1:17:40 GMT
I'm currently disinclined to think blight/void magic and blood magic are connected.
Like you can obviously use blood magic with blight Magic (that's basically the joining ritual?), same as you can use it with/to power fade magic, but not necessarily the same thing.
Basically because Avernus believed that blight Magic, unlike blood magic, is alien to demons. And while obviously he could be wrong, he's not basing this on what the Chantry said or oral tradition, he believes this based on personal experience using blood and blight Magic and summoning demons. And he could still be wrong, just because it was alien to the demons he dealt with doesn't mean other demons, possibly more ancient and powerful ones, don't understand blight Magic fine. But until something contradicts him I'm inclined to give him some credit for putting the research in.
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 29, 2024 1:22:21 GMT
Wait, wait one moment…
Templars get their abilities through Titans? Does this mean the Religious Zeal against Magic that Templars feel is not just indoctrination from the Chantry but also from the song of the Titans who despise the magic of the Elves? Oh my God, the Templars are surrogate children of the Titans. It makes more sense now. The song is telling them to get vengeance. When a Templar asks the Maker for strength, they are subconsciously asking the Titan to grant them abilities. Mages don’t hear the song because they already have Lyrium in their blood and are connected with the Fade, the Lyrium they take doesn’t resonate with them. A Templar doesn’t have Lyrium in their blood and so the Titan forms a connection to the Templar because there’s no natural Fade Magic interference…
This is why Templars are monastic too, they have can’t have distractions like families or lives outside the Chantry that dull their minds otherwise the connection to the Titan through Lyrium would turn them into a mindless addicts or even kill them. The rituals, training drills and prayers are there to fortify their mental states and bodies for the connection.
I feel like I’m understanding the lore’s endpoint.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 29, 2024 1:34:47 GMT
Yeah I must say the whole magic thing probably is one of the more fascinating lingering issues within the setting and especially since its probably changed behind the scenes since Origins.
I am sympathetic to the whole idea of there being multiple forms of magic in the first place...or prime sources I guess for lack of a better word. Afterall as the General said up there I find the idea both really thematically interesting and just a fine idea to convey from an in universe perspective as well that essentially, for me, you have sky/fade/dream/non reality magic vs the 'not magic'/lyrium/blood, red lyrium/ void/ ground magic likely exhibited by the Titans and what not.
The thing is though that one cannot get over the statements that they did collapse the magical sources to simplify things and make things easier. Now this could mean that this is just down to two instead of one, and personally I think three would be too many, but then you have to then categorize which form of magic belongs to which branch. Because there is a lot of wiggle room there because fade magic seems to be tied in with lyium in some ways...but yet Lyrium is also tied into the magic of the titans which I would also ascribe to being 'the ground' and has been said to 'reinforce reality' and what not. So in other words we have a lot of potential sub sources and sub types of 'earth'/Titan magic and almost none of the Fade.
Of course though given the nature of the Fade and given the above conversation I did just have the idea that all of this could actually be just one source...and that one source of magic is just some form of blood. Considering how the Fade is the domain of dreams and spirits and is constantly influenced bu the physical world/ beings in the physical world dreaming, having experiences and emotions, its possible that Fade magic itself is just a reflection of that. That given the nature of the Fade that there can be nothing original and unique in the Fade and everything is just a reflection from the other side. This does fit into the idea of the Elves or Evanuris also being spirits as well. But then the reason that this then ties everything into blood is that would pretty much make some form of blood magic and emotional control (which thanks to Tevinter Nights we also know is a thing) as the only source. Lyium and Red Lyium would then be magic. Then you have the blood of humans, Elves, and Darkspawn. Which this would be really juicy again thematically because A. if we extend this out for enough that says a lot about the Chantry's creation myth in regards to the Maker and again points to maybe the nature of the Maker himself if his domain was the Fade at one point and B. that since the Chantry has the official position that Blood magic sucks it will be incredibly ironic if everything ends up being Blood Magic.
Of course the only evidence that this theory may not be true is Solas seems pretty well connected to the Truth of Things and he didn't approve of the use of Blood magic and he'd almost have to know that Titan magic/ lyrium is Titan blood. Though from there the question is does he object to the usage of bloog magic period or just Blood magic from Elves? Is the use of Blood magic in any of these eventualities inherently corruptive? Is Blood Magic just a source of magic as I suppose above or is it just a battery?
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 29, 2024 2:24:43 GMT
Honestly, I view Templar Magic as “Mostly Good” Blood Magic as it reinforces the veil, blocks Fade Magic and severely damages malevolent creatures like Demons. I don’t know if the same applies to positive Spirits like Faith or Valor. There’s no mind possession as it seems more to influence the subconscious but that be considered brainwashing. Also, there doesn’t appear to be any pain inflicted on the Titan unless you count the Dwarves mining Lyrium veins as painful (which would be odd for something that calls Dwarves children and sings songs to them to find the veins). When Templars take Lyrium, they become part of something greater and I assume that means communion with the mind of the Titan.
The connection however is dangerous to the individual Templar because of the high chance it would turn them into a mindless addict if not properly disciplined or if the Templar indulges too much. But again, if a Templar turns into an addict, they won’t destroy a village like a regular Blood Mage who becomes possessed.
(Gasp) I just realized something else, Lyrium stores memories. Could the Templars also be communing with the echos of Templars of the past?
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Post by General Mahad on Mar 29, 2024 4:09:20 GMT
This brings me back to Void Magic or specifically comparison with Red Lyrium.
When a Templar takes normal Lyrium, they mind-meld with an entity that views them in a rather nurturing fashion but that can be dangerous if the Templar lacks mental and physical fortitude. This connection gives them their fabled anti-Magic arts. A Templar can serve for decades and still retire with their mind relatively intact (provided superior mental and physical fortitude) and a severely addicted one can still have a chance to go into remission.
When a Templar takes red Lyrium, the material is parasitic and eats them from the inside out which makes sense as it is blighted. I think Red Lyrium connects to the Void and the connection is to an entity that views the Templars with indifference or contempt as Red Templars survive less than a couple of years unless they are like Meredith or Samson. It doesn’t care that it inflicts horrific pain or horrible paranoia on the Red Templars while giving them superior abilities, they are little more than puppets to spread the infection.
(Sorry for the double post)
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 1, 2024 14:34:45 GMT
Is it possible that the Guardian from the urn of Sacred Ashes quest was a Grey Warden? I was looking through his armour set and realized he was wearing a Grey Warden griffon helm - not entirely a good lead but I noticed concept art of him within a making of Dragon Age Origins video (and notice the emphasis on a red spire within the top of it) And it has the same vibe as this concept art from Dreadwolf (who is presumably the First Warden)
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2024 16:08:37 GMT
I was looking through his armour set and realized he was wearing a Grey Warden griffon helm - The problem is that back in DAO the Wardens didn't have a uniform, they only introduced that in DA2. So the Guardian could have had a winged helm that was totally unrelated because subsequently they decided it looked cool and so gave it to the Wardens. The Guardian is a mystery concerning who the spirit had chosen for their identity. You would think it would resemble Havard, who took the Sacred Ashes south, so may be the winged helm was just something that was popular at that time with the southern barbarians. May be it was one of them who introduced it to the Wardens.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 1, 2024 17:40:12 GMT
I was looking through his armour set and realized he was wearing a Grey Warden griffon helm - The problem is that back in DAO the Wardens didn't have a uniform, they only introduced that in DA2. So the Guardian could have had a winged helm that was totally unrelated because subsequently they decided it looked cool and so gave it to the Wardens. The Guardian is a mystery concerning who the spirit had chosen for their identity. You would think it would resemble Havard, who took the Sacred Ashes south, so may be the winged helm was just something that was popular at that time with the southern barbarians. May be it was one of them who introduced it to the Wardens. Maybe the Guardian/Warden really was an Avvar but was distinct from either the Warden who killed Dumat or the Augur sidereal who helped However Andraste's death took place 33 years ago after the end of Blight 1 - which unless he had his Joining the same year Dumat was killed and was already about to depart for his calling - means he would've been dead long before then.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 1, 2024 22:27:20 GMT
Is there any reason to believe that the Wardens really were Imperium Soldiers who disavowed their allegiance to Tevinter from the beginning and not just an elite army unit Tevinter had created?
I've wondered if the Warden/Tevinter split happened much later on when then we are told - i.e. towards the end of Blight 1.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 2, 2024 19:29:17 GMT
Is there any reason to believe that the Wardens really were Imperium Soldiers who disavowed their allegiance to Tevinter from the beginning and not just an elite army unit Tevinter had created? The 1st Blight was very long. It had allegedly already been running for 100 years and then it was another 100 before they figured out how to kill Dumat permanently. I would assume that after 100 years probably a group of Tevinter soldiers decided they were fed up with it dragging on and being poorly led by the Magisters, so that is why they decided to act independently of them. I think originally the Joining was meant to give them immunity to the taint in the short term and the likelihood of dying from exposure to darkspawn was probably around the same odds as dying from the Joining. I assume they probably had one or two failed attempts to kill Dumat before they realised what they needed to do to make it permanent. Otherwise, it would mean that the person who invented the Joining knew from the outset that it was necessary. As we have already discussed, that wasn't beyond the bounds of possibility. To be honest, I think the creators of this narrative hadn't really thought through the implications of the length of the First Blight. Either the number of darkspawn on the surface wasn't as great as we believe or they must have stayed pretty much in one or two locations, otherwise the whole of Thedas would have become a barren wasteland after 200 years.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 3, 2024 21:07:46 GMT
I assumed the winged regalia was a common Anderfels thing due to the large population of Griffons being tamed there.
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Black Magic Ritual
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 4, 2024 21:11:39 GMT
If Andraste was the OGB, could she have been intended to be used as a form of deterrence for the Wardens against Tevinter? As in, we want our independence away from you or we'll unleash this terror upon you?
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Post by xerrai on Apr 5, 2024 1:32:17 GMT
[...] To be honest, I think the creators of this narrative hadn't really thought through the implications of the length of the First Blight. Either the number of darkspawn on the surface wasn't as great as we believe or they must have stayed pretty much in one or two locations, otherwise the whole of Thedas would have become a barren wasteland after 200 years. That might be the case, possibly. While we have abundant evidence that leads us to believe the taint predates the corruption of the Black City, we don't have much evidence about the same applying to darkspawn. To be sure, I believe some form of tainted being(s) existed in the time of elvhenan , be they darkspawn or something else. But it could be that the 'modern' darkspawn may have only become a big problem after the Golden City was breached. For example, the magisters sidereal could have reintroduced a new darkspawn 'strain' onto the main continent after the previous blighted race was exterminated/sealed in ancient times. Or maybe a formerly-contained broodmother and her offspring was released, allowing the darkspawn to grow their numbers in the post-veil world.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 8, 2024 1:41:48 GMT
Been thinking of one of my popular pet theories since it came up recently in an twitter exchange and giving a bit of an update since I have been musing on it. Namely the whole 'Elves are spirits' thing. And as with most such theories it does not fully and neatly fit into a bubble because there is things that make me a bit weary about comitting to the idea that ALL Elves were spirits, again I think the nature of spirit and Elf is like that between the Avaar and their gods, especially since as I pointed out in the above theory that the Fade just imitates things rather then is natural of its own. So I find a few different scenarios likely.
1. The Evanuris are spirits. This makes a fair bit of sense since we have seen and the Evanuris are mostly related to emotions and spirit like aspects. Plus they also seemed to have the duality of spirits as well, Solas is the literal name for Pride, Mythal is known for vengence and justice (a dichtonomy we have seen in the games), etc. Though it may not as neatly fit for others like Andruil as well and some of the Evanuris we just don't know enough about.
2. The Evanuris and the Sentinels were spirits. Since there definitley seems to be a divide within the Elven populations. Solas keeps on talking about the plan for 'his people' yet he does not often consider the Elves of modern Thedas to be properly his, though there is some vagueness with this to. But there is definite differences in Elven classes, namely the Sentinels also seem to have a similar attitude towards other Elves and seem to be immortal...just like spirits are immortal. I find this the most likely.
3. All Elves are spirits. Given the definite above this is unlikely but still possible given how Solas also treated the Elves. He does mention that the Elves of Thedas may like the new world better afater all and he also seemed to draw attention to Sera and her connection to the Fade. Now she could be an Evanuris or Sentinel Elf herself but that provides its own problems especially long term. More likely this is hinting at the long term connection between Elves and the Fade and maybe they just forgot? Bit of a stretch but its [possible.
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