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Post by burningcherry on Feb 13, 2020 20:37:12 GMT
I'd say that is both a problem and, in itself, a solution. A new character, to an inexperienced writer, can be difficult to write. They can be inconsistent, they can be boring or unimaginative. They may also just not resonate with their audience. Garrus is Garrus. He is established, he is familiar, liked and defined. Unless you are a complete and total hack of a writer and even so, peer reviews should remedy that, you should be able to write three lines worth of Garrus. Which is about 3 lines more than any Andromeda character got. That is, by extension, better. Which brings me to my other point; even if you don't believe Shepard is the solution to ME's problem, his crew is. Unless you want to argue Bioware has nothing but hack writers left, so with that you have to also agree that everything Bioware has made the past 10 years or so, is utter shit, in terms of writing, meaning that Ryder, Peebee, Liam, Cora are all shit as well. One thing I'm certain of, even with a Shepard-centric game, is that a fair amount of newness in the roster is guaranteed, and kind of necessary. The arcs of the old crew is kind of spent, and even if you had decent writers to work off of the old crew as a foundation, there would be a little bit of a ceiling in terms of intrigue. They might be more interesting for new players just getting into this, but as one who has been familiar with Garrus, Tali, Liara, James, Ash/Kaiden etc., I'd be pretty bored if I just had them again. Depicting a lasting relationship and having them experience new adventures works better in a more passive medium, but in a game where I interact and try to dive into companions' stories and background, just having that familiar cast member would just be treading old ground. Looking at history, you should expect Garrus, Tali, and no one else who was on the team in the previous game.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 20:40:19 GMT
Yes they can, If I like the game, I'll buy it as a way of expressing my subjective opinion. But as Andromeda boldly portrayed, your subjective opinion, while appreciated by Bioware, is not enough at the AAA market segment. Bioware needs to make sales and saying "just do the exact same thing that failed last time, because I will buy it regardless, even though it will further hurt your brand" is not an objectively compelling argument. No company will work for that.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 13, 2020 20:41:35 GMT
One thing I'm certain of, even with a Shepard-centric game, is that a fair amount of newness in the roster is guaranteed, and kind of necessary. The arcs of the old crew is kind of spent, and even if you had decent writers to work off of the old crew as a foundation, there would be a little bit of a ceiling in terms of intrigue. They might be more interesting for new players just getting into this, but as one who has been familiar with Garrus, Tali, Liara, James, Ash/Kaiden etc., I'd be pretty bored if I just had them again. Depicting a lasting relationship and having them experience new adventures works better in a more passive medium, but in a game where I interact and try to dive into companions' stories and background, just having that familiar cast member would just be treading old ground. Looking at history, you should expect Garrus, Tali, and no one else who was on the team in the previous game. I guess they'll never leave the house and find a real job.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 13, 2020 20:42:23 GMT
I don't think you can have a Witcher game without the Witcher. CDPR stated "Witcher 4", which means not a side story, but a direct sequel. Witcher 3 is, probably, a great sendoff. I wouldn't know, didn't really like the games and I didn't even finish 2, but they all were outstanding hits, both critically and financially, so if there's money on the table, as a company you are obligated to do what you can to take it. We just had Rambo 5 and Creed 2, the seventh movie in the Rocky series. Or is it the eighth? And we've sent off these characters a couple of times already. Quite competently, too. I don't doubt Geralt will return. I'll say this much: Geralt has some pretty definitive ends you can choose from in 3. I get they can make bank off of the old icon, but there's a point I feel where a protagonist's story should just end indefinitely, or else the narrative simply starts to lose itself in the fatigue. I'm glad that the Warden never came back for this reason. The voice actor for Geralt has said that he feels Geralt's time is over in the franchise, suggesting that they should move forward with Ciri, since she actually has story left to work from. I would be willing to bet that something like this is the likelier outcome, with Geralt now being an NPC, taking a mentor-like role in a new game. I doubt fans would have much objection to that, so long as the Geralt they depict is up to snuff. With how people reacted to Hawke's return I don't think it would be that well accepted and I know plenty of people that were fine with it. The problem is the non-stop online barrage of "you betrayed my Hawke" type of whining that happened and if you cannot replicate the character 100% for 100% of those people I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 13, 2020 20:46:06 GMT
Looking at history, you should expect Garrus, Tali, and no one else who was on the team in the previous game. I guess they'll never leave the house and find a real job. Play ME2.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 20:52:56 GMT
I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff They did. It's called ME3. Didn't fly so good.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 13, 2020 21:40:55 GMT
I'll say this much: Geralt has some pretty definitive ends you can choose from in 3. I get they can make bank off of the old icon, but there's a point I feel where a protagonist's story should just end indefinitely, or else the narrative simply starts to lose itself in the fatigue. I'm glad that the Warden never came back for this reason. The voice actor for Geralt has said that he feels Geralt's time is over in the franchise, suggesting that they should move forward with Ciri, since she actually has story left to work from. I would be willing to bet that something like this is the likelier outcome, with Geralt now being an NPC, taking a mentor-like role in a new game. I doubt fans would have much objection to that, so long as the Geralt they depict is up to snuff. With how people reacted to Hawke's return I don't think it would be that well accepted and I know plenty of people that were fine with it. The problem is the non-stop online barrage of "you betrayed my Hawke" type of whining that happened and if you cannot replicate the character 100% for 100% of those people I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff. I suspect CDPR would do a better job with Geralt's character than BioWare did with Hawke. I suppose it helps that Geralt isn't exactly the most....dynamic character in terms of outward personality. He would probably not feel a whole lot different being entirely on autopilot as an NPC, whereas Hawke may feel like a totally different character, now defined primarily by complaints about the Grey Wardens, and then someone can magically be influenced by our character to make the sacrifice in the fade. Of course, Senor Mustacio bites it instead, because to hell with that noise. I'm glad Trespasser threw a bone there and let Hawke go back to Kirkwall to live it up with the new Viscount. Finally....someone in the BioWare lineup isn't totally screwed.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 13, 2020 22:39:12 GMT
I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff They did. It's called ME3. Didn't fly so good. Well, really Shepard only. At least other characters got slides. JACOB got to sit in a classroom where people can fall asleep, and this dude is on the Jacob tier of fan favorites.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 23:24:42 GMT
Well, really Shepard only What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. ME3 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. I'm not going to say that what they pulled off in the 18 month development period the game realistically enjoyed, but if they pushed the game to June 2021, from March 2012, it would have been too soon and too short a development time. We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that, no expectation and anticipation to that game to warrant 10 years between releases.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 13, 2020 23:46:18 GMT
One thing I'm certain of, even with a Shepard-centric game, is that a fair amount of newness in the roster is guaranteed, and kind of necessary. The arcs of the old crew is kind of spent, and even if you had decent writers to work off of the old crew as a foundation, there would be a little bit of a ceiling in terms of intrigue. They might be more interesting for new players just getting into this, but as one who has been familiar with Garrus, Tali, Liara, James, Ash/Kaiden etc., I'd be pretty bored if I just had them again. Depicting a lasting relationship and having them experience new adventures works better in a more passive medium, but in a game where I interact and try to dive into companions' stories and background, just having that familiar cast member would just be treading old ground. Well, really Shepard only What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. A great illustration of one aspect of the baggage Shep carries - and one of several reasons why any attempt to build another game featuring Shepard would be a minefield. Some would want an all-new cast, others would be ninety shades of pissed if their favorites - especially their LIs - weren't prominent members of the squad. There's far too many of them to do them all justice, and ME3 suffered for that very reason.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 13, 2020 23:51:08 GMT
Well, really Shepard only We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 23:53:04 GMT
There's far too many of them to do them all justice, and ME3 suffered for that very reason That's not a problem, it's a blessing. Imagine having all these characters that people love, all the things you can do with them and the first thing you can think of is "that's a problem". You're sitting on a goldmine of ideas, appeal and potential and your first thought is dynamite it to oblivion. It's like that guy who said having Luke Skywalker in the Disney Trilogy was a problem. Unbelievable.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 23:58:45 GMT
We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that. When 2012 was rolling over, there was insatiable interest in Mass Effect. People where still high off ME2, even in the google trends chart I've posted many time here, ME's interest post ME2 remained unusually high and retained that throughout the wait for ME3, meaning that while there was no big release to rally people behind, Mass Effect was embedded in people's minds. Even after ME3, but what interest there was in DA is trending to 2-3% of its peak for years now, since shortly after Inquisitions release. Right now, nobody remembers Inquisition, nobody is waiting with baited breath for Dread Wolf and with Anthem's overhaul taking up resources and time out of Bioware's dev schedule, it's going to be a very long time till you get Inquisition. People are no longer holding their breath for it and by the time Dread Wolf does come out, the public's reaction will be a resounding "who?"
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 14, 2020 0:28:02 GMT
With how people reacted to Hawke's return I don't think it would be that well accepted and I know plenty of people that were fine with it. The problem is the non-stop online barrage of "you betrayed my Hawke" type of whining that happened and if you cannot replicate the character 100% for 100% of those people I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff. I suspect CDPR would do a better job with Geralt's character than BioWare did with Hawke. I suppose it helps that Geralt isn't exactly the most....dynamic character in terms of outward personality. He would probably not feel a whole lot different being entirely on autopilot as an NPC, whereas Hawke may feel like a totally different character, now defined primarily by complaints about the Grey Wardens, and then someone can magically be influenced by our character to make the sacrifice in the fade. Of course, Senor Mustacio bites it instead, because to hell with that noise. I'm glad Trespasser threw a bone there and let Hawke go back to Kirkwall to live it up with the new Viscount. Finally....someone in the BioWare lineup isn't totally screwed. Exactly. Its why I don't think I can compare what CDPR does with The Witcher to what BioWare does with their games. For no matter what you do with Geralt in the game the character still will be Geralt for everyone. Even in their games there really isn't a massive change to how the world works based on your decisions for eventually like the Walking Dead games nullifies your choices in some way. Its also why other games out there don't give me the BioWare feeling regardless of how many former BioWare developers work on the project for they aren't making their characters dynamic and at the end of the game I don't feel like I have really accomplished anything with my character. I felt like I had just as much character progression with Lara Croft in the last three Tomb Raider games as I did with Geralt for the characters have some thing happen, but they don't really develop based on how the player plays them.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 14, 2020 0:34:13 GMT
Well, really Shepard only What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. ME3 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. I'm not going to say that what they pulled off in the 18 month development period the game realistically enjoyed, but if they pushed the game to June 2021, from March 2012, it would have been too soon and too short a development time. We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that, no expectation and anticipation to that game to warrant 10 years between releases. Its what happens when BioWare comes to these places and tries to give players what they want. I remember between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 BioWare originally said that only a few characters would return from the prior Mass Effect games in Mass Effect 3, but because people kept whining about how their favorite character must return or they would be crushed BioWare then changed and put all the characters into a returning position. If anything I shows caving to the internet masses for what they want to see in a game is a very bad thing for you cannot develop everything and put it into a game there just isn't enough time in game development. Heck look at Star Citizen its been in development for nine years now and all they have manage to perfect for that game is ways to milk more money out of players. You can say that about most games that aren't in active development or close to launch with people not being that interested. If anything I would call that being responsible so they aren't getting overly hyped over nothing, I am pretty sure the interest and anticipation will start to grow when BioWare starts making more announcements about the future of the game and demonstrating it. BioWare games aren't the massive games that other studios produce so its also going to be more low key for longer periods of time.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 0:49:08 GMT
Its what happens when BioWare comes to these places and tries to give players what they want. I remember between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 BioWare originally said that only a few characters would return from the prior Mass Effect games in Mass Effect 3, but because people kept whining about how their favorite character must return or they would be crushed BioWare then changed and put all the characters into a returning position. If anything I shows caving to the internet masses for what they want to see in a game is a very bad thing for you cannot develop everything and put it into a game there just isn't enough time in game development All I hear is that you don't want to put in the work. And then you get Mass Effect 3. Or you could just not put anyone in ME3. Best place to start the trilogy. Nobody you actually know or care about shows up in the culmination of that trip you started in 2007. Imagine Return of the King, without Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Sam, Pippin and Mary. You'd have an even bigger problem. People would be up in arms demanding explanations why they don't know anyone in the third installment of the trilogy. Unbelievable, the kind of propositions I am reading here. Why make ME3, then? Start a new franchise, if you've decided finishing it in a competent way is impossible. BioWare games aren't the massive games that other studios produce Baldur's Gate? Jade Empire? Dragon Age Origins? Not massive games? What is a massive game?
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 14, 2020 0:52:03 GMT
One thing I'm certain of, even with a Shepard-centric game, is that a fair amount of newness in the roster is guaranteed, and kind of necessary. The arcs of the old crew is kind of spent, and even if you had decent writers to work off of the old crew as a foundation, there would be a little bit of a ceiling in terms of intrigue. They might be more interesting for new players just getting into this, but as one who has been familiar with Garrus, Tali, Liara, James, Ash/Kaiden etc., I'd be pretty bored if I just had them again. Depicting a lasting relationship and having them experience new adventures works better in a more passive medium, but in a game where I interact and try to dive into companions' stories and background, just having that familiar cast member would just be treading old ground. What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. A great illustration of one aspect of the baggage Shep carries - and one of several reasons why any attempt to build another game featuring Shepard would be a minefield. Some would want an all-new cast, others would be ninety shades of pissed if their favorites - especially their LIs - weren't prominent members of the squad. There's far too many of them to do them all justice, and ME3 suffered for that very reason. Yeah it would have been difficult unless ME ended up being doubled in gameplay length tbh I was happy with what we got for the most part becaus for me I felt it was the best we were going to get.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 14, 2020 1:22:50 GMT
I still think BioWare was better off to just drop Shepard and company off a cliff They did. It's called ME3. Didn't fly so good. You meant ME:A, right? And as several others have pointed out, ME:A's problems seem to have determined its sales, rather than its basic premise.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 14, 2020 1:24:36 GMT
Its what happens when BioWare comes to these places and tries to give players what they want. I remember between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 BioWare originally said that only a few characters would return from the prior Mass Effect games in Mass Effect 3, but because people kept whining about how their favorite character must return or they would be crushed BioWare then changed and put all the characters into a returning position. If anything I shows caving to the internet masses for what they want to see in a game is a very bad thing for you cannot develop everything and put it into a game there just isn't enough time in game development All I hear is that you don't want to put in the work. And then you get Mass Effect 3. If Bio had done things your way, ME3 would have lost money.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 1:25:48 GMT
And as several others have pointed out, ME:A's problems seem to have determined its sales, rather than its basic premise. Even I have said it. But it also faced problems, passed down due to its legacy and predecessors. Andromeda would have done better not being a Mass Effect game.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 1:29:48 GMT
If Bio had done things your way, ME3 would have lost money. I sincerely doubt that. Raving reviews, word of mouth, and incessant shilling of the game from the community itself would have made this game a must have, an unparalleled peak of video game interactive storytelling. It would have retroactively made the entire trilogy better. People would go back to play the old games, which they'd have missed, because they'd know it'd be worth it, for the final result, so it would generate more sales for EA. And you would get an even bigger MP base, buying those MTX and flooding EA with money. ME would be mythical right now.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 14, 2020 5:04:02 GMT
All I hear is that you don't want to put in the work. And then you get Mass Effect 3. If Bio had done things your way, ME3 would have lost money. I mean Star Wars tried to cater to the OT fans in terms grittiness and practical effects and it caused division.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,939 Likes: 8,985
inherit
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 14, 2020 6:05:48 GMT
If Bio had done things your way, ME3 would have lost money. I mean Star Wars tried to cater to the OT fans in terms grittiness and practical effects and it caused division. I think that is something both Disney and BioWare need to learn from that its no longer possible to aim to make the upset people happy. I am not always sure that the people that proclaim to be upset are even upset they are just putting on some show. To me the best bet would be to aim to make a solid game and if people like it the good word of mouth will do more benefit for the game then any targeted changes to the product. A lot of my problems with Andromeda seem to stem from BioWare trying to please all the critics they had across the first three games and aiming to make some major magical achievement of combining three massive games without sacrificing anything. At least for me a game is more then just its individual parts, its about the entire experience for I always am able to look beyond shortcomings if I am having fun.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 14, 2020 12:38:27 GMT
Well, really Shepard only What about Ashley? Liara? Kaidan? What about the rest of the ME1 crew that got sidelined for a Cerberus cheerleader and Prize? They dumped everyone in that game because setting inversion. They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the main plot hit all that much harder. ME2 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. FTFY
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 14, 2020 13:01:02 GMT
What about Ashley? Liara? Kaidan? What about the rest of the ME1 crew that got sidelined for a Cerberus cheerleader and Prize? They dumped everyone in that game because setting inversion. They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the main plot hit all that much harder. ME2 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. FTFY Pretty accurate and I am pretty sure there are people out there that can find things to complain about with Mass Effect 1 because of what they changed from The Knights of the Old Republic.
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