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Post by themikefest on Feb 14, 2020 13:53:49 GMT
What about Ashley? Liara? Kaidan? What about the rest of the ME1 crew that got sidelined for a Cerberus cheerleader and Prize? They dumped everyone in that game because setting inversion. They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the main plot hit all that much harder. ME2 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. FTFY Interesting since ME2 characters got sidelined for a character who likes taking armor from a dead body to have it displayed like it's some kind of prize, and failing to inform anyone that the body is in the hands of Cerberus. The other saying you turned your back, betrayed the Alliance.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 14:30:10 GMT
Well, really Shepard only What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. ME3 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. I'm not going to say that what they pulled off in the 18 month development period the game realistically enjoyed, but if they pushed the game to June 2021, from March 2012, it would have been too soon and too short a development time. We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that, no expectation and anticipation to that game to warrant 10 years between releases. What about them? I'd say that given they were part of the Disposable Dozen, I'm surprised they got as much content as they did at all. When BioWare allows us to kill a character, that typically results in far fewer resources dedicated to them, because the game has to function properly without them. But, this is especially true for the lesser of the lot who barely had much to add to even that game, like Samara, Jacob, Jack, Thane Kasumi and Zaeed. Mordin and Legion were the only story-relevant characters there, and even they had to have stand-ins for the later plot points to work. Anyone hoping that all of these characters would get big roles going forward was being naive and forgetting that BioWare has already done this in the past to other characters. Look at all those fools who wanted the Warden to return in future DA games, despite the fact that this character can straight up die, thus necessitating an entirely new PC in their place. Not even Awakening really handles this elegantly, despite being a silent PC. I will defend Mordin’s story to the death. He probably has my favorite character story in all of Mass Effect. We can complain about James' inclusion all we want, but what if Zaeed is the only living companion left? We just get him instead? Mofo barely had any speaking lines in ME2, and would have little reason to just be there in ME3.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 14, 2020 14:44:49 GMT
Pretty accurate and I am pretty sure there are people out there that can find things to complain about with Mass Effect 1 because of what they changed from The Knights of the Old Republic. That sounds... vaguely like the grognards bemoaning the move from Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age...
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 14, 2020 14:52:46 GMT
What about Thane? Legion? Mordin? What about the rest of the ME2 crew that got sidelined for a sexbot and Juevos Rancheros? They dumped everyone in that game because "optional". They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the ending hit all that much harder. ME3 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. I'm not going to say that what they pulled off in the 18 month development period the game realistically enjoyed, but if they pushed the game to June 2021, from March 2012, it would have been too soon and too short a development time. We're talking 2024 for the sequel to Inquisition and there's no interest in that, no expectation and anticipation to that game to warrant 10 years between releases. What about them? I'd say that given they were part of the Disposable Dozen, I'm surprised they got as much content as they did at all. When BioWare allows us to kill a character, that typically results in far fewer resources dedicated to them, because the game has to function properly without them. But, this is especially true for the lesser of the lot who barely had much to add to even that game, like Samara, Jacob, Jack, Thane Kasumi and Zaeed. Mordin and Legion were the only story-relevant characters there, and even they had to have stand-ins for the later plot points to work. Anyone hoping that all of these characters would get big roles going forward was being naive and forgetting that BioWare has already done this in the past to other characters. Look at all those fools who wanted the Warden to return in future DA games, despite the fact that this character can straight up die, thus necessitating an entirely new PC in their place. Not even Awakening really handles this elegantly, despite being a silent PC. We can complain about James' inclusion all we want, but what if Zaeed is the only living companion left? We just get him instead? Mofo barely had any speaking lines in ME2, and would have little reason to just be there in ME3. I remember my first run of ME2, being flabbergasted by the sheer quantity of new characters, knowing full well they couldn't possibly all have significant roles in ME3. I was actually quite surprised that every one of them was included in ME3 in some fashion. Their VA budget must have been strained to the limit, especially with all of the substitutes for characters who'd died along the way.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 14, 2020 15:02:28 GMT
Pretty accurate and I am pretty sure there are people out there that can find things to complain about with Mass Effect 1 because of what they changed from The Knights of the Old Republic. That sounds... vaguely like the grognards bemoaning the move from Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age... Yep, there has always been a group of people always upset at the direction BioWare has gone with their current game. I even remembering some of the bemoaning with Jade Empire.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 15:41:32 GMT
Interesting since ME2 characters got sidelined for a character who likes taking armor from a dead body to have it displayed like it's some kind of prize, and failing to inform anyone that the body is in the hands of Cerberus. The other saying you turned your back, betrayed the Alliance.
Well, in fairness, if the intention was to have Shepard brought back, would the Alliance have approved of any of this? As for the VS, it was clear BioWare was really forcing this character to have a reason to simply not join you so they could plan out their story for the next game, which would be nigh impossible to do if they allow them to get killed in the Suicide Mission. You could tell that BioWare was holding certain characters so they just didn't need to account for them. Tali and Garrus basically got to enjoy seniority over the other weirdos by being the original ME1 cast. I think BioWare's mistake was really underestimating fans' expectations. It seemed fairly obvious, at least to me, that the entire setup of ME2 was pretty temporary. The alignment with Cerberus, all these extra characters and other ship NPC's. It all felt like it was going to scatter by the end of the game, especially since the bulk of Shepard's dialogue leans on combative with The Illusive Man and general opinions on Cerberus in general. Heck, you get criticized by everyone, including the 2 Cerberus goons we rolled with from the start if you give them the base.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 14, 2020 16:06:47 GMT
Well, in fairness, if the intention was to have Shepard brought back, would the Alliance have approved of any of this? As for the VS, it was clear BioWare was really forcing this character to have a reason to simply not join you so they could plan out their story for the next game, which would be nigh impossible to do if they allow them to get killed in the Suicide Mission. In fairness to your fairness, how different would that scene on Horizon have played out if the asari informed the Alliance Shepard's body is in the hands of Cerberus? As far as A/K not joining. Why not have them say they have other things to deal with or have Shepard not ask them to join him/her? It's because ME3 was the best spot to start playing a trilogy. A new player would not know that Garrus and Tali could be dead. I believe Tali wasn't suppose to be a squadmate, but because Weekes put up a fuss, she was added. Then you have Wrex who has the I was an ME1 squadmate card allowing him to be a squadmate for the Citadel dlc leaving the ME2 characters short-changed again. It sucks that Traynor, Cortez, Jack and Lawson couldn't join Shepard for the casino part. I would say it's playing favorites, having too many squadmates for ME2 when only 8 were needed to complete the mission, and having either all characters live or die in ME2 except Joker who will always survive no matter what.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 16:20:57 GMT
Well, in fairness, if the intention was to have Shepard brought back, would the Alliance have approved of any of this? As for the VS, it was clear BioWare was really forcing this character to have a reason to simply not join you so they could plan out their story for the next game, which would be nigh impossible to do if they allow them to get killed in the Suicide Mission. In fairness to your fairness, how different would that scene on Horizon have played out if the asari informed the Alliance Shepard's body is in the hands of Cerberus? As far as A/K not joining. Why not have them say they have other things to deal with or have Shepard not ask them to join him/her? It's because ME3 was the best spot to start playing a trilogy. A new player would not know that Garrus and Tali could be dead. I believe Tali wasn't suppose to be a squadmate, but because Weekes put up a fuss, she was added. Then you have Wrex who has the I was an ME1 squadmate card allowing him to be a squadmate for the Citadel dlc leaving the ME2 characters short-changed again. It sucks that Traynor, Cortez, Jack and Lawson couldn't join Shepard for the casino part. I would say it's playing favorites, having too many squadmates for ME2 when only 8 were needed to complete the mission, and having either all characters live or die in ME2 except Joker who will always survive no matter what. So, you'd completely do away with the whole suicide mission gameplay in order to pander to those who feel Jack et al got shortchanged in ME3? - Scripting instead that everyone lives or everyone dies? Taking away all the player choices given in that part?
To make the SM work, Bioware had to put in the "disposable dozen" and it paid off in a great endgame in ME2 (the most immersive gameplay of the entire Trilogy, IMO). That ME3 couldn't budget enough to accommodate them all equally is a trade-off I'll happily accept. Sure, it might have been "nice" to have the game expanded to include everyone as a squadmate, but I'm perfectly happy with how they handled it.
As for James, he's a great character and Freddy Prinze, Jr. does a great job voicing him. I'm also perfectly OK with Liara being a part of the team. Having Wrex return during the Citadel DLC was a nice touch. Mordin's pivotal role in the genophage decision was well done from any angle and provides one of the best moments of the Trilogy.
You can whine about your sour grapes over Liara all you want. I disagree with you, period.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 16:32:46 GMT
What about Ashley? Liara? Kaidan? What about the rest of the ME1 crew that got sidelined for a Cerberus cheerleader and Prize? They dumped everyone in that game because setting inversion. They burnt a lot of good will with that choice, which made the main plot hit all that much harder. ME2 was Bioware's greatest missed opportunity and greatest assortment of poor planning, bad decisions and too many cut corners. FTFY Are you arguing that no old crewmate should have been left out of any of the games? Because then you are making my argument for me. I mean, I get what you are trying to accomplish, but it in no way contradicts my case. It just further solidifies my case throughout the trilogy and how Bioware mismanaged the IP.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 14, 2020 16:32:59 GMT
I was fine with how they handled most of the ME2 characters in ME3, though Kelly absolutely got screwed over. T_T
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 16:44:33 GMT
What about them? I'd say that given they were part of the Disposable Dozen, I think a lot of people didn't see it as such. I think Citadel DLC is blatant proof of that. Remember the "[insert character name] deserved better" forum campaigns? I'm surprised they got as much content as they did at all. When BioWare allows us to kill a character, that typically results in far fewer resources dedicated to them, because the game has to function properly without them That's called "repercussion" and should have some impact on your "choices matter" trilogy. Anyone hoping that all of these characters would get big roles going forward was being naive and forgetting that BioWare has already done this in the past to other characters But that's the crux of "your choices matter". Otherwise, your choices don't matter. Look at all those fools who wanted the Warden to return in future DA games, despite the fact that this character can straight up die, thus necessitating an entirely new PC in their place. Not even Awakening really handles this elegantly, despite being a silent PC. Usually, when the PC dies, that's handled as a game over. A save that can't be carried over. Which is why you usually continue from the save where the PC lives. That's a very clear and easy choice. I will defend Mordin’s story to the death. He probably has my favorite character story in all of Mass Effect. I never asked you to. This is an entirely irrelevant outburst. We can complain about James' inclusion all we want, but what if Zaeed is the only living companion left? We just get him instead? Mofo barely had any speaking lines in ME2, and would have little reason to just be there in ME3. Entirely irrelevant as well. The point is not to pick and choose.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 14, 2020 16:47:34 GMT
You can whine about your sour grapes over Liara all you want. I disagree with you, period. And you can whine about your sour grapes about people not liking Andromeda for whatever reason. And whine about your sour grapes about not buying an ME game if Bioware uses destroy as the main ending with the geth destroyed, because you didn't get what you wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 16:53:19 GMT
I was fine with how they handled most of the ME2 characters in ME3, though Kelly absolutely got screwed over. T_T I agree. If the crew survived, there was no reason why Kelly and Gabby and Ken couldn't have been said to have joined the Alliance with Joker's recommendation and been already aboard the ship helping with the retrofits (since they already knew the ship). Traynor and Adams could have been solely substitute characters if the crew or part of the crew died in ME2, just as Dr. Michel could sub in for Dr. Chakwas, if she was killed (eliminating the big debate for sending Chakwas to the labs). Garrus could have been left off the squad, and he and Tali could have had direct substitutes for their roles the same way Legion did, with them just being available for certain missions related to their home-world story arc.worlds. Liara could have had the same treatment and the game could have rolled with just James and Javik as regulars on Shepard's squad. The only shipboard romance scenes available could have been with either Ashley or Kaidan and/or Kelly/Traynor and/or Cortez/James and Javik (through the DLC as a full romance). The rest of the romances could have been scenes on the Citadel (as it is with Miranda).
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 16:53:44 GMT
Well, in fairness, if the intention was to have Shepard brought back, would the Alliance have approved of any of this? As for the VS, it was clear BioWare was really forcing this character to have a reason to simply not join you so they could plan out their story for the next game, which would be nigh impossible to do if they allow them to get killed in the Suicide Mission. In fairness to your fairness, how different would that scene on Horizon have played out if the asari informed the Alliance Shepard's body is in the hands of Cerberus? As far as A/K not joining. Why not have them say they have other things to deal with or have Shepard not ask them to join him/her? If I had to guess, probably about the same. The dialogue between the VS and Shepard felt a bit drama for drama's sake. Shepard's dialogue was also pretty stunted in this sequence, because there was little you could select to really reason with them. Shep could've told the VS the Council was basically sanctioning your efforts, which would be true if you accepted reinstatement of your Spectre status, since I guess Anderson didn't really offer this up at that point either. Whether or not Liara told the Alliance anything shouldn't even matter at that point, because by the time we get to Horizon, the Alliance is fully aware of Shepard's association with Cerberus. Nothing should be a surprise there, yet for some reason, the VS seems flabbergasted. Like, surprise fool, you're totally late to the exposition party. I don't really pay attention to that market speak stuff about ME3, because whatever they (or some silly marketing person) say, this is not even remotely true. The shuttle scene in the Citadel DLC is about the same as other sequences throughout ME3 that couldn't involve an ME2 cast member. Who could be inserted there, and how? Considering the way the sequence was animated, it's even a stretch to have James step in for this, since it was clearly a scene designed for a krogan character. If I'm remembering correctly, the window of opportunity you can play the DLC also makes it more complicated, since Jack can simply be left to get captured and Miranda can die. I would've liked to have more characters in the casino part, though I did enjoy Traynor and Cortez's individual scenes. Watching that asari get electrocuted was pretty nice. I'd say it's a bit of both, favorites and the complication of the ME2 system. If I remember correctly, they didn't even remember through development post-ME2 that Thane and Jacob were potential romance options in ME2 lol. But it makes sense. If they're going to push the hardest for certain characters, it might as well be the originals.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 16:55:49 GMT
You can whine about your sour grapes over Liara all you want. I disagree with you, period. And you can whine about your sour grapes about people not liking Andromeda for whatever reason. And whine about your sour grapes about not buying an ME game if Bioware uses destroy as the main ending with the geth destroyed, because you didn't get what you wanted. ... and you can at least notice that I haven't whined about people not liking Andromeda for many a moon now (cite where I even mentioned the word in my post to you on this). You're the one who keeps trying to drag it into every conversation I post about now. You, on the other hand, posted your sour Liara grapes just above the post I responded to... and don't both denying it and asking for a citation (like you usually do) because I'll happily go back and quote that post as well:
Then, answer the question... you would forfeit the SM gameplay by making it such that everyone except Joker and Shepard either survives or dies at the end of ME2 to avoid your accusations of "favoritism"? IMO, the SM is just too good for that. So they played some favorites and they weren't the ones you wanted favored... so what?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 17:09:15 GMT
I was fine with how they handled most of the ME2 characters in ME3, though Kelly absolutely got screwed over. T_T And Jacob. And Thane. And Samara. etc. You only specifically mind Kelly, because that's who you care for. Many people feel the same way for other characters. More than one, for a lot of people. And as the amount of people that started ME with 2 and for many people ME2 was their first Bioware game in general, you'd understand the how and why that would be the case. For many players, 12/12 of the ME2 crew members meant as much as Kelly did to you. The only other Bioware game Playstation players had ever played up to that point was Dragon Age: Origins. ME2 sold three and a half time more than ME1, meaning that a whopping ~70% of the franchise's playerbase was introduced to the ME2 crew as their first. Playstation players couldn't even get ME1. The notion Bioware had that they could pull off ME3, as they did, without a hitch from the fanbase was misguided at best, deluded at worst. You need to be seriously out of touch with humankind to think otherwise. I understand why Bioware chose to do what they did, but the moment you sell a product that you know is going to keep a large segment of the franbase dissatisfied by its quality, you should be prepared for the backlash. Some people here, would call these people fools for expecting otherwise. The truth is, however, that these people are your fanbase. They pay for your games, they put food on your table, they spread the word of how great your games are, they are your "free" marketing team. And they are good business. How you keep them satisfied is the company's problem, not their problem. Calling them fools, to their faces, enhances the problem. Calling them entitled enhances the problem. That burns good will, that lowers sales, that increases dissatisfaction, which in turn damages brands, damages budgets and damages future projects. It's already happened. Bioware is not their problem, ME3 is not their problem. They are Bioware's problem, they haven't gone away, but rather they've grown in the decade past and the more Bioware has ignored them, the deeper they ran. Now you have dissent within Bioware, for their own choices, Drew calling out Bioware for their ways in his latest interview, Bioware Studio's closing down and getting understaffed, with no new people going to work there, horrible work conditions and it seems that everything that could go wrong for them already has. This is it. This is the bottom.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 14, 2020 17:18:54 GMT
and you can at least notice that I haven't whined about people not liking Andromeda for many a moon now (cite where I even mentioned the word in my post to you on this). While that's true, at least for the time being, you were doing it a lot since MEA released. Of late you've changed to I won't buy an ME game if they do something I don't like. There you go again. Every conversation? To use your wording, no I won't answer because you're being difficult.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 17:40:02 GMT
What about them? I'd say that given they were part of the Disposable Dozen, I think a lot of people didn't see it as such. I think Citadel DLC is blatant proof of that. Remember the "[insert character name] deserved better" forum campaigns? Sure, and I'm sure these people made sure that none of these characters were disposed of in ME2, as did I. But, that doesn't really change what they were. The fact that we can actively kill all but one to carry over to the next game is what I'm using as definition. I remember those campaigns. They were hilarious. The Citadel DLC was big late-game fanservice, so obviously it was going to toss a lot of this stuff in there as a response. Too bad that it also brought with it a hefty dose of tonal dissonance. Love the DLC anyway, but it still feels awkward in how playful the tone is compared to everything else. BioWare's penchant for over-correction was pretty clear in this DLC. Heck we actually got a Thane funeral due to how dirty they did our boy, AND the 3 people who romanced Jacob get to smack him for knocking up some Cerberus lab rat? So many boxes ticked. Sure, but that goes to show the inherent weakness with the overarching plot system BioWare attempted. Realistically, the Genophage arc should probably have died with Maelon's data if you delete it, or at least with Mordin if he dies, but then that's a huge chunk of story gutted out of 3. Garrus should have been on the Citadel as a higher ranking C-Sec officer if you helped him deal with Doctor Heart when you meet him in ME2, but then that wouldn't be a dramatic reveal of who Archangel is. Perhaps most don't really, but hey, at least if Kasumi is alive, we can save both the Hanar home world and the Salarian Spectre. I feel like a lot of story beats BioWare intended to go with left them a bit between a rock and a hard place of where to take this bloated flow chart, especially with the word budget that came with it. The reverse is actually true here. The Hero of Ferelden dying is the default world state. BioWare never intended for this character to move forward in the would-be saga, and established from the beginning that it was more about Thedas than about any particular character. Just as well, since BioWare was taking a page out of Mass Effect's playbook on the voiced PC. Best to do that with a new one than trying to change an old one. Nope. The games were thoroughly hamstrung by the carry-over choice system, and it basically came to a head in ME3. For anyone who feels a character got sidelined by another in ME3, I'd be curious to actually see if someone could come up with a chart that shows how the game could factor in these variables, manage the word budget of spoken dialogue for [insert character] and their substitute.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 17:55:57 GMT
I was fine with how they handled most of the ME2 characters in ME3, though Kelly absolutely got screwed over. T_T And Jacob. And Thane. And Samara. etc. You only specifically mind Kelly, because that's who you care for. Many people feel the same way for other characters. More than one, for a lot of people. And as the amount of people that started ME with 2 and for many people ME2 was their first Bioware game in general, you'd understand the how and why that would be the case. For many players, 12/12 of the ME2 crew members meant as much as Kelly did to you. The only other Bioware game Playstation players had ever played up to that point was Dragon Age: Origins. ME2 sold three and a half time more than ME1, meaning that a whopping ~70% of the franchise's playerbase was introduced to the ME2 crew as their first. Playstation players couldn't even get ME1. The notion Bioware had that they could pull off ME3, as they did, without a hitch from the fanbase was misguided at best, deluded at worst. You need to be seriously out of touch with humankind to think otherwise. I understand why Bioware chose to do what they did, but the moment you sell a product that you know is going to keep a large segment of the franbase dissatisfied by its quality, you should be prepared for the backlash. Some people here, would call these people fools for expecting otherwise. The truth is, however, that these people are your fanbase. They pay for your games, they put food on your table, they spread the word of how great your games are, they are your "free" marketing team. And they are good business. How you keep them satisfied is the company's problem, not their problem. Calling them fools, to their faces, enhances the problem. Calling them entitled enhances the problem. That burns good will, that lowers sales, that increases dissatisfaction, which in turn damages brands, damages budgets and damages future projects. It's already happened. Bioware is not their problem, ME3 is not their problem. They are Bioware's problem, they haven't gone away, but rather they've grown in the decade past and the more Bioware has ignored them, the deeper they ran. Now you have dissent within Bioware, for their own choices, Drew calling out Bioware for their ways in his latest interview, Bioware Studio's closing down and getting understaffed, with no new people going to work there, horrible work conditions and it seems that everything that could go wrong for them already has. This is it. This is the bottom. I'd argue that maybe they shouldn't even bother with this whole multi-game choice saga system, and just allow a single game to have its own self-contained batch of choices that begins and ends entirely in that game. The ME trilogy should serve as a cautionary tale of why planning is key. When BioWare assembled ME2, they knew full well that players would get attached, yet they planned their demise out anyway in that one game, despite there being a clear plan to have a third. It was doomed, and they probably knew it to some degree.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 18:08:18 GMT
Sure, and I'm sure these people made sure that none of these characters were disposed of in ME2, as did I. But, that doesn't really change what they were. The fact that we can actively kill all but one to carry over to the next game is what I'm using as definition. Then that is a very poor definition. I remember those campaigns. They were hilarious I don't see them as hilarious. Passionate people will have very passionate responses. And they were all very civil and, to an extent, heartwarming, even. If I had created a character and the fans of my character protested that they wanted to see more of them, I'd bawl my eyes out. That is an incredible response to generate and most writers never get that. The Citadel DLC was big late-game fanservice, so obviously it was going to toss a lot of this stuff in there as a response. Too bad that it also brought with it a hefty dose of tonal dissonance. Love the DLC anyway, but it still feels awkward in how playful the tone is compared to everything else. BioWare's penchant for over-correction was pretty clear in this DLC. Heck we actually got a Thane funeral due to how dirty they did our boy, AND the 3 people who romanced Jacob get to smack him for knocking up some Cerberus lab rat? So many boxes ticked. A lot of people didn't stick around for Citadel, though. People had checked out before the EC even. And that's another problem with Bioware; going silent. Anthem fans know that feeling way too well. Sure, but that goes to show the inherent weakness with the overarching plot system BioWare attempted. Realistically, the Genophage arc should probably have died with Maelon's data if you delete it, or at least with Mordin if he dies, but then that's a huge chunk of story gutted out of 3. Garrus should have been on the Citadel as a higher ranking C-Sec officer if you helped him deal with Doctor Heart when you meet him in ME2, but then that wouldn't be a dramatic reveal of who Archangel is. And that is Bioware's problem, for going that route, not the fans'. Perhaps most don't really, but hey, at least if Kasumi is alive, we can save both the Hanar home world and the Salarian Spectre. I feel like a lot of story beats BioWare intended to go with left them a bit between a rock and a hard place of where to take this bloated flow chart, especially with the word budget that came with it. Again, that's Bioware's problem. The reverse is actually true here. The Hero of Ferelden dying is the default world state. BioWare never intended for this character to move forward in the would-be saga, and established from the beginning that it was more about Thedas than about any particular character. Just as well, since BioWare was taking a page out of Mass Effect's playbook on the voiced PC. Best to do that with a new one than trying to change an old one. As with most Bioware titles, Bioware failed to communicate that to the fans. This is the first time I hear that the Hero of Ferelden was intended to be dead. And I'm probably more engaged in Bioware going ons than most habitual players. Nope. The games were thoroughly hamstrung by the carry-over choice system, and it basically came to a head in ME3. For anyone who feels a character got sidelined by another in ME3, I'd be curious to actually see if someone could come up with a chart that shows how the game could factor in these variables, manage the word budget of spoken dialogue for [insert character] and their substitute. And again, that is Bioware's problem.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,624
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 18:12:53 GMT
I'd argue that maybe they shouldn't even bother with this whole multi-game choice saga system, and just allow a single game to have its own self-contained batch of choices that begins and ends entirely in that game. The ME trilogy should serve as a cautionary tale of why planning is key. When BioWare assembled ME2, they knew full well that players would get attached, yet they planned their demise out anyway in that one game, despite there being a clear plan to have a third. It was doomed, and they probably knew it to some degree. I don't know how someone can knowingly paint themselves into a corner, understand that there will be a lot of complaints going forward, but chooses to go on with it, regardless.
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Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jun 11, 2024 16:44:23 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 18:30:07 GMT
Sure, and I'm sure these people made sure that none of these characters were disposed of in ME2, as did I. But, that doesn't really change what they were. The fact that we can actively kill all but one to carry over to the next game is what I'm using as definition. Then that is a very poor definition. I remember those campaigns. They were hilarious I don't see them as hilarious. Passionate people will have very passionate responses. And they were all very civil and, to an extent, heartwarming, even. If I had created a character and the fans of my character protested that they wanted to see more of them, I'd bawl my eyes out. That is an incredible response to generate and most writers never get that. The Citadel DLC was big late-game fanservice, so obviously it was going to toss a lot of this stuff in there as a response. Too bad that it also brought with it a hefty dose of tonal dissonance. Love the DLC anyway, but it still feels awkward in how playful the tone is compared to everything else. BioWare's penchant for over-correction was pretty clear in this DLC. Heck we actually got a Thane funeral due to how dirty they did our boy, AND the 3 people who romanced Jacob get to smack him for knocking up some Cerberus lab rat? So many boxes ticked. A lot of people didn't stick around for Citadel, though. People had checked out before the EC even. And that's another problem with Bioware; going silent. Anthem fans know that feeling way too well. Sure, but that goes to show the inherent weakness with the overarching plot system BioWare attempted. Realistically, the Genophage arc should probably have died with Maelon's data if you delete it, or at least with Mordin if he dies, but then that's a huge chunk of story gutted out of 3. Garrus should have been on the Citadel as a higher ranking C-Sec officer if you helped him deal with Doctor Heart when you meet him in ME2, but then that wouldn't be a dramatic reveal of who Archangel is. And that is Bioware's problem, for going that route, not the fans'. Perhaps most don't really, but hey, at least if Kasumi is alive, we can save both the Hanar home world and the Salarian Spectre. I feel like a lot of story beats BioWare intended to go with left them a bit between a rock and a hard place of where to take this bloated flow chart, especially with the word budget that came with it. Again, that's Bioware's problem. The reverse is actually true here. The Hero of Ferelden dying is the default world state. BioWare never intended for this character to move forward in the would-be saga, and established from the beginning that it was more about Thedas than about any particular character. Just as well, since BioWare was taking a page out of Mass Effect's playbook on the voiced PC. Best to do that with a new one than trying to change an old one. As with most Bioware titles, Bioware failed to communicate that to the fans. This is the first time I hear that the Hero of Ferelden was intended to be dead. And I'm probably more engaged in Bioware going ons than most habitual players. Nope. The games were thoroughly hamstrung by the carry-over choice system, and it basically came to a head in ME3. For anyone who feels a character got sidelined by another in ME3, I'd be curious to actually see if someone could come up with a chart that shows how the game could factor in these variables, manage the word budget of spoken dialogue for [insert character] and their substitute. And again, that is Bioware's problem. You don't like the definition, yet their disposable nature remains. They were clearly disposable to BioWare as well. That might be "BioWare's problem", but as a player of BioWare games, obviously their problems become mine, and I guess ours. If I recall, there was no definite word from BioWare on whether or not there was going to be a Dragon Age sequel at the time of release. However, we can't really accuse BioWare of lack of communication or giving players some indication of where the franchise was going to go because Dragon Age: Awakening made it clear that the world would carry on without the Warden, since you could choose the Orlesian Warden Commander in their place.
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Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jun 11, 2024 16:44:23 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 14, 2020 18:33:01 GMT
I'd argue that maybe they shouldn't even bother with this whole multi-game choice saga system, and just allow a single game to have its own self-contained batch of choices that begins and ends entirely in that game. The ME trilogy should serve as a cautionary tale of why planning is key. When BioWare assembled ME2, they knew full well that players would get attached, yet they planned their demise out anyway in that one game, despite there being a clear plan to have a third. It was doomed, and they probably knew it to some degree. I don't know how someone can knowingly paint themselves into a corner, understand that there will be a lot of complaints going forward, but chooses to go on with it, regardless. I'm inclined to think that BioWare had a lot of issues during production that can lead to this sort of thing. The whole "crunch" and "BioWare Magic" ideas probably clashed hard while they were making this stuff, so a lot of logical errors and things could slip through. It's a lot of speculation on my part, but with how Anthem and Andromeda turned out, I can't rule it out.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,624
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 14, 2020 18:45:24 GMT
You don't like the definition, yet their disposable nature remains. They were clearly disposable to BioWare as well. That might be "BioWare's problem", but as a player of BioWare games, obviously their problems become mine, and I guess ours. You can say that, but you have to take into account that you and I aren't a viable fanbase. Bioware needs numbers and to get those numbers, they need a fanbase bigger than 2 people. It is safe to assume that new players getting into the hobby have largely avoided Bioware and old ones have largely rejected Bioware, at this point. The why, I would say, is largely due to the unfavourable reputation Bioware has cultivated for itself in the past decade. Bioware may be our woe, but it is not our problem. It is not our problem because we cannot fix Bioware's problem for them. If I recall, there was no definite word from BioWare on whether or not there was going to be a Dragon Age sequel at the time of release. However, we can't really accuse BioWare of lack of communication or giving players some indication of where the franchise was going to go because Dragon Age: Awakening made it clear that the world would carry on without the Warden, since you could choose the Orlesian Warden Commander in their place. I didn't see it like that. For example, in NWN, you could make a new character and play the expansions, especially if you reinstalled just to play them, so you wouldn't have to replay the OC to move to the expansions. That's how I saw it. I guess some other players must have seen it like that, back then. In any case, it wasn't like it was an unprecedented case.
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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inherit
guest@proboards.com
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Jun 26, 2024 16:24:53 GMT
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Jun 26, 2024 16:24:53 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 19:22:13 GMT
and you can at least notice that I haven't whined about people not liking Andromeda for many a moon now (cite where I even mentioned the word in my post to you on this). While that's true, at least for the time being, you were doing it a lot since MEA released. Of late you've changed to I won't buy an ME game if they do something I don't like. There you go again. Every conversation? To use your wording, no I won't answer because you're being difficult. 1) Of late I have said that there is only one thing that Bioware could do that would cause me to not consider buying another ME game. One thing that I don't like enough to not consider overlooking it. You're spinning my statement into something totally different. There are lots of things Bioware could do that would not be my preference and I would still consider buying the game. There is only one thing that would cause me to walk away. Furthermore, I never said I was upset that some people didn't like ME:A. I've said that my liking it is not a crime. I've also said that a number of people did trash it before it was even released and never gave the game an honest chance to be liked. I have also defended that a game with a 7/10 rating is an "average game" and not a "total disaster."
2) OK, "almost every conversation, we've had recently."
3) Shrug, then don't answer it. I personally would not trade off the quality and immersiveness of making all those choices in the SM for anything. It's a great mission... one of the best individual missions I've ever played in any game. It would lose a lot of its appeal if it were scripted that either absolutely everyone survived or absolutely everyone died... and then one of those two made an absolute canon going into ME3's part of the story. Sure, they compromised and played some favorites... and you don't like some of the favorites they played. I say again... so what. The quality and immersiveness of the SM is still worth it. I also think the ME2 would lose a lot of its replay appeal if there were only 8 squad mates available, all of which had to be recruited.
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