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Post by Fredward on Oct 18, 2016 12:52:26 GMT
I'd give them everything they're asking for except the bit about sharing in the game's profits, unabashedly diva behavior from my PoV. Part of me wonders whether they didn't just add that so that their other requests look (even more) reasonable in comparison.
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Post by Amirit on Oct 18, 2016 12:58:21 GMT
Didn't we go through this prior to DAIs release? I seem to recall Will Wheaton sniffling about how rough it was...maybe I'm misremembering. You remember correctly and last time public was not informed about results of the strike. It looks like they still demand some percents from the sales: Negotiations have been underway on topics such as “contingent compensation,” or residual payments based on profit sharing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 13:00:38 GMT
I'd give them everything they're asking for except the bit about sharing in the game's profits, unabashedly diva behavior from my PoV. Part of me wonders whether they didn't just add that so that their other requests look (even more) reasonable in comparison. If they did, then it's a move on their part designed to basically force things into a strike position rather than negotiate. The developers can't even consider signing off as long as an un-scaled "profit" sharing program designed to kick in immediately after the "average" costing game just starts to break even is on the table. The developers have responsibilities to at least first recoup all the costs for their investors (the ones who risk the losses if the game flops). The payments need to be scaled to actual profits not to some arbitrary sales figure that assumes profits. In addition, the voice actors should consider how this sort of plan will affect how the developers allocate workload. The way it appears to be structured now, it will inevitably lead to developers keeping their hiring of VAs limited to as small a number as possible... i.e. not spreading out the work available to "minor" VAs but instead requiring more individual VAs to do more of the different voices in the game. This will mean more stress on voice boxes of VAs who do multiple voices, but less work available for VAs who don't/can't varying their range quite as much. The payments, if anything, have to at least be scaled to the amount of work the VA actually does in the game.
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Post by Fredward on Oct 18, 2016 13:14:31 GMT
I'd give them everything they're asking for except the bit about sharing in the game's profits, unabashedly diva behavior from my PoV. Part of me wonders whether they didn't just add that so that their other requests look (even more) reasonable in comparison. If they did, then it's a move on their part designed to basically force things into a strike position rather than negotiate. The developers can't even consider signing off as long as an un-scaled "profit" sharing program designed to kick in immediately after the "average" costing game just starts to break even is on the table. The developers have responsibilities to at least first recoup all the costs for their investors (the ones who risk the losses if the game flops). Sure, but IIRC part of the reason why VAs have to deal with such dubious working conditions is cuz there wasn't any kind of pre-existing VA organization to protect/champion their interests before, so if this is something new strong-arming devs to the negotiation table and wringing out a nice deal with the threat of a strike might be a quick way to gain legitimacy. OR I'm conspiracy theorist/overthinking and they really do think this is a reasonable request, it's not.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 18, 2016 13:26:53 GMT
I'd give them everything they're asking for except the bit about sharing in the game's profits, unabashedly diva behavior from my PoV. Part of me wonders whether they didn't just add that so that their other requests look (even more) reasonable in comparison. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
That's one flaw in the negotiation tactics... asking for the sky (but both sides are guilty of this).
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Post by helios969 on Oct 18, 2016 13:56:03 GMT
People in support need to be willing to shell out 90$ for the game and 30$ for DLCs. Just saying.
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Post by degs29 on Oct 18, 2016 14:30:26 GMT
I don't know moooch about development cycles on games, least of all EA games or Mass Effect, but I'd also assume that all of the voice actors have recorded the majority of the game's script/dialogue etc. Actually, I'd think that the voice recording would be one of the later things they do, as it doesn't make as much sense to bring the VAs in when even minor script changes may be edited in, thus requiring them to schedule additional voice recording sessions for those actors. As such, this is concerning.
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Post by mrjack on Oct 18, 2016 14:30:43 GMT
mrjack , I am decidedly not a TV lover. I probably watch less television than anyone I've ever met. That said, I well remember several good shows killed by the writers' strike. That was an unfortunate time for some good programs. I agree with you that things could affect us worse than some might believe, if the strike isn't resolved. All of the games I play feature strong stories supported by top-shelf VA work. They'd not be the same without that VA work. I certainly hope the strike is resolved in a swift, equitable manner. I hardly watch any TV at all these days. it's actually a bit of an issue between me and my friends that still do. They keep trying to turn me on to new shows and I keep trying (unsuccessfully) to get them to try video games. I still like a couple of shows but I normally just catch up whenever I'm in the mood instead of waiting with bated breath for ''Next week on...". At the time though, it was a huge deal What worries me is that if the strike is unsuccessful, the voice acting profession will lose what little legitimacy it has only recently been able to gain. Even in this thread there has been mention of "real" actors as opposed to voice actors when in my opinion their value is the same. One can argue the merits of residual pay and bonuses in the abstract but when two workers produce similar work of equal value but their remuneration is significantly less, not only is that unfair but it devalues the profession in the eyes of both existing and potential talent and the end product suffers as a result. We need more talented actors to see voice acting as a legitimate career instead of a consolation prize. We need the actors who already work as VAs to commit to the work in the same way they would to any screen job. We've all heard examples of big name screen actors who phone in a performance in a video game. Maybe if VA work held the same prestige as screen work, that would happen less. I believe there are many talented actors out there in the field but not so many we can afford to lose 25% of them to a strike and even more beyond that when actors decide to forego VA work altogether or when future generations dismiss it as financially non-viable. No-one wants to do (basically) the same job for less pay and under less favourable working conditions than their screen actor counterparts. The strike will have a big impact on the industry by highlighting the inequalities and if it is not resolved in favour of the workers, the already small talent pool will likely take a big hit and the dialogue in games will, at best, stagnate creatively speaking and at worse, regress to the time of Resident Evil '96: On a slightly more positive note, I don't think Bioware would ever let the quality of their VA work slip to unbearable levels. But I can definitely see other developers dropping the ball on it, especially companies like Bethesda who have only just started to up their VA game.
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Post by fade9wayz on Oct 18, 2016 15:04:02 GMT
To be fair, non-original voice acting is generally mediocre to awful, which is the case for that Resident evil exemple. I can't judge the original japanese game, since, well, I don't understand, but I'd expect it is better directed.
I know I couldn't bring myself to play any of the ME games in french though, and it wasn't as bad as this. In movies, only Disney seems to make the effort of hiring good french voice actors for their movies, I cringe with french versions of most other foreign movies.
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Post by pdusen on Oct 18, 2016 16:24:31 GMT
In the interest of promoting reading comprehension: the union isn't asking for actors to have a share of the profits, they're asking for bonus rates based on the performance of the game. There's nothing weird or outrageous about that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 16:40:47 GMT
In the interest of promoting reading comprehension: the union isn't asking for actors to have a share of the profits, they're asking for bonus rates based on the performance of the game. There's nothing weird or outrageous about that. i.e. Flat-rated performance bonuses that kick in just when the average game finishes breaking even... which is worse than a true profit sharing program... that would at least confirm that actual profits exist first rather than just an arbitrary 2 million copies sold (which just assumes that the game, regardless of its costs, would be profitable at that point).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 19:39:16 GMT
Yeah, 100 per hour sounds like a lot except they don't work longer then 4 hours a day and don't work for 5 hours a week for months. If they worked 4 hours a day ever week that'd be pretty damn awesome though. Either way the SAG-AFRA site does seem to have a lot of old information. Just to give an idea, all of a companions romance dialog (plus non-romance dialog) can be done in a single session. Jack for instance in ME2 had a total of like 30 minutes worth of actual dialog, and that's counting Shepard talking in between. Granted theres going to be some re-do's, doing the line a few times, trying it a few different ways - it's a process after all. But they aren't there for extreme amounts of time. Exception to that's been probably Fallout 4 where it's been even more of a trial and error process with the voice talent for the protag. That was literally an on/off for 2 years with the 2 VA's. Even then your not talking about it being super consistent or anything as far as how often their in the booth. I dunno, I still think it makes some sense for them to get payment to be a little more even ended. But that's how Freelance is really... unless your a movie star then you get payed in giant lump sums that let you coast for years. Whatever though, I just hope they all get this shit figured out. From a player perspective I just want em all to get good games out. ... and there's lots of other part-time jobs that pay $11 an hour. It not being a full-time career does not negate anything. Is $100 per hour (minimum scale) a fair wage for the work they do while they are working? What suggests that it isn't fair? The amount? Just because 100 is bigger than 11? So there's no accounting for skill, experience, or value of the final product? The point Adhin was trying to make is that, to attract a skilled/talented/experienced professional to do part-time work, you need to compensate appropriately. Again, it goes to opportunity cost. If an actor signs up for a 12 hour a week gig for 3 weeks that precludes that actor from taking a full-time gig for the same 3 weeks, how much do you pay them to make it worth the risk? Put another way, if you want to guarantee that only unproven, untrained and inexperienced VA's provide VO for AAA games, pay them no more than $11/hour.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 19:54:25 GMT
Didn't we go through this prior to DAIs release? I seem to recall Will Wheaton sniffling about how rough it was...maybe I'm misremembering. You remember correctly and last time public was not informed about results of the strike. It looks like they still demand some percents from the sales: Negotiations have been underway on topics such as “contingent compensation,” or residual payments based on profit sharing.People in support need to be willing to shell out 90$ for the game and 30$ for DLCs. Just saying. Nonsense. You are assuming that there's no margin in either historical or projected profit to spread around a bit more. If EA franchises chronically run on thin margins, you'd have a point. But EA is not Walmart. Margins on software in general are huge in comparison. AAA games might be a bit tighter -- the costs certainly are high -- but we're talking 21% instead of 38%, numbers like that, compared to the 3%? a grocery store makes. Even if half of that goes into re-investment (hah!), that's still 10% that's going into the profit-sharing plans of EA executives. I'm certain an expose on EA executive compensation and how much each pocketed for, let's say, DAI to date, would be quite illuminating. BTW, for those who were trying to pit devs at Bioware against the VAs, it would be interesting to know if devs, level designers, artists, etc. on the team get any sort of profit sharing bonuses or equity in their packages. It's not inconceivable that basically everyone else has a finger in the pie except for VAs. In the interest of promoting reading comprehension: the union isn't asking for actors to have a share of the profits, they're asking for bonus rates based on the performance of the game. There's nothing weird or outrageous about that. i.e. Flat-rated performance bonuses that kick in just when the average game finishes breaking even... which is worse than a true profit sharing program... that would at least confirm that actual profits exist first rather than just an arbitrary 2 million copies sold (which just assumes that the game, regardless of its costs, would be profitable at that point). I agree, but that might have been a negotiated compromise, because EA and the other distributors/studios didn't want to open their books up to the union. Public companies generally want to avoid breaking out the profit/loss of individual product lines in their financials, for a whole host or reasons, including giving competitors a heads-up, giving journalist something to muck-rake about, or because there's some shady stuff going on/there's some creative financing going on that enables speculative/risky experiments.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 20:04:19 GMT
... and there's lots of other part-time jobs that pay $11 an hour. It not being a full-time career does not negate anything. Is $100 per hour (minimum scale) a fair wage for the work they do while they are working? What suggests that it isn't fair? The amount? Just because 100 is bigger than 11? So there's no accounting for skill, experience, or value of the final product? The point Adhin was trying to make is that, to attract a skilled/talented/experienced professional to do part-time work, you need to compensate appropriately. Again, it goes to opportunity cost. If an actor signs up for a 12 hour a week gig for 3 weeks that precludes that actor from taking a full-time gig for the same 3 weeks, how much do you pay them to make it worth the risk? Put another way, if you want to guarantee that only unproven, untrained and inexperienced VA's provide VO for AAA games, pay them no more than $11/hour. No, you were implying that just because they only work part time that alone justified being paid more than they currently do. Part-time work is part time work regardless of the wage (don't get hung up on the $ value I gave... that's just around the figure that flipping burgers gets you here in Alberta - which is a common part-time employment). Just because the sort of job works 4-hour days (or 2) doesn't mean I should be guaranteed the same end result of money as a job a similar level of skill and training that works an 8-hour day. Voice actors, for example, don't have to spend hours in a makeup chair prior to starting a recording session. Actors do. So, what I'm getting at is a full-time burger flipper standing on their feet for 8 hours might make $88 bucks in a day; but that doesn't mean a student coming in after school for a 4-hour shift should be getting $22 bucks an hour to get the same day rate just because they can't work a full 8-hour shift. If a little bit of screaming is involved in the VA session, the union wants to cut it to 2-hours maximum with no loss of pay... so, that is effectively doubling the wage for that session if there's anything stressful on the voice box in the material being recorded. Who would make that judgment... well, probably the "stunt coach" the union wants present at every recording session as well... which is another salary the company would, of course, be expected to pay. I wasn't even suggesting that $100 per hour was either fair or unfair... that part, if you'll note was worded as a question. It's the "hidden" doubling factor here that I don't think is fair.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 20:12:49 GMT
You remember correctly and last time public was not informed about results of the strike. It looks like they still demand some percents from the sales: Negotiations have been underway on topics such as “contingent compensation,” or residual payments based on profit sharing.People in support need to be willing to shell out 90$ for the game and 30$ for DLCs. Just saying. Nonsense. You are assuming that there's no margin in either historical or projected profit to spread around a bit more. If EA franchises chronically run on thin margins, you'd have a point. But EA is not Walmart. Margins on software in general are huge in comparison. AAA games might be a bit tighter -- the costs certainly are high -- but we're talking 21% instead of 38%, numbers like that, compared to the 3%? a grocery store makes. Even if half of that goes into re-investment (hah!), that's still 10% that's going into the profit-sharing plans of EA executives. I'm certain an expose on EA executive compensation and how much each pocketed for, let's say, DAI to date, would be quite illuminating. BTW, for those who were trying to pit devs at Bioware against the VAs, it would be interesting to know if devs, level designers, artists, etc. on the team get any sort of profit sharing bonuses or equity in their packages. It's not inconceivable that basically everyone else has a finger in the pie except for VAs. i.e. Flat-rated performance bonuses that kick in just when the average game finishes breaking even... which is worse than a true profit sharing program... that would at least confirm that actual profits exist first rather than just an arbitrary 2 million copies sold (which just assumes that the game, regardless of its costs, would be profitable at that point). I agree, but that might have been a negotiated compromise, because EA and the other distributors/studios didn't want to open their books up to the union. Public companies generally want to avoid breaking out the profit/loss of individual product lines in their financials, for a whole host or reasons, including giving competitors a heads-up, giving journalist something to muck-rake about, or because there's some shady stuff going on/there's some creative financing going on that enables speculative/risky experiments. Then the plan should not kick in when the "average" game is just starting to break even (i.e. when "profits" are questionable). The first payment should kick in AFTER the profits for that tier are assured... i.e. first payment at 4 million units sold, and then at 6, the 8, and then at 12 million units sold. They could also have proposed payments at half the size starting at 3 million, then 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9.
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Post by Amirit on Oct 18, 2016 20:27:05 GMT
I'm certain an expose on EA executive compensation and how much each pocketed for, let's say, DAI to date, would be quite illuminating. Oh, that would be lovely, but what it has to do with VA strike? And your assumption that that hypothetical sum could be shared among developers and VAs is hilarious! Can you give an example of such redistribution? Any company, any area of work? It will be exactly that - additional cost for the consumers, nothing more. BTW, for those who were trying to pit devs at Bioware against the VAs, it would be interesting to know if devs, level designers, artists, etc. on the team get any sort of profit sharing bonuses or equity in their packages. It's not inconceivable that basically everyone else has a finger in the pie except for VAs. But it is known! Last campaign the whole point was about developers who get nothing but countless extra hours of work and VAs, who have a lot of demands and now want royalties on top of it! You are acting like VAs are poor victims of the industry, that forced by the cruel society to a horrible work for some money barely enough to survive between the games they are making VO for. They are far from it! Even those who do nothing but VA are doing it for several games at once (for all that huge money from every studio plus benefits), and in addition they VA cartoons, radio-show, make voice doubling for movies and so on. While professional actors play roles in the movies and theaters. Should you cry about animators or programmers I would understand, but vouching for royalties for VAs is beyond my understanding.
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Post by Adhin on Oct 18, 2016 20:33:11 GMT
What suggests that it isn't fair? The amount? Just because 100 is bigger than 11? So there's no accounting for skill, experience, or value of the final product? The point Adhin was trying to make is that, to attract a skilled/talented/experienced professional to do part-time work, you need to compensate appropriately. Again, it goes to opportunity cost. If an actor signs up for a 12 hour a week gig for 3 weeks that precludes that actor from taking a full-time gig for the same 3 weeks, how much do you pay them to make it worth the risk? Put another way, if you want to guarantee that only unproven, untrained and inexperienced VA's provide VO for AAA games, pay them no more than $11/hour. No, you were implying that just because they only work part time that alone justified being paid more than they currently do. Part-time work is part time work regardless of the wage (don't get hung up on the $ value I gave... that's just around the figure that flipping burgers gets you here in Alberta - which is a common part-time employment). Just because the sort of job works 4-hour days (or 2) doesn't mean I should be guaranteed the same end result of money as a job a similar level of skill and training that works an 8-hour day. Voice actors, for example, don't have to spend hours in a makeup chair prior to starting a recording session. Actors do. So, what I'm getting at is a full-time burger flipper standing on their feet for 8 hours might make $88 bucks in a day; but that doesn't mean a student coming in after school for a 4-hour shift should be getting $22 bucks an hour to get the same day rate just because they can't work a full 8-hour shift. If a little bit of screaming is involved in the VA session, the union wants to cut it to 2-hours maximum with no loss of pay... so, that is effectively doubling the wage for that session if there's anything stressful on the voice box in the material being recorded. Who would make that judgment... well, probably the "stunt coach" the union wants present at every recording session as well... which is another salary the company would, of course, be expected to pay. I wasn't even suggesting that $100 per hour was either fair or unfair... that part, if you'll note was worded as a question. It's the "hidden" doubling factor here that I don't think is fair. I definitely agree 'doubling' doesn't make much sense but in away it should be considered hazard pay. They're taking a risk at hurting the very thing that the whole job is about. Double seems silly, for sure, overtime type pay for those hours would make more sense, which is what time and a half? So 150 per hour? In the end the same number of hours are going to have to be had to get all the dialog required. From my understanding, at least with BioWare they tend to do anything remotely hazardous at the ending of sessions. So there looser by that point and it wont directly impact anything else after. Personally I think doing the hazardous stuff for the last 30 minutes of a 4 hour session might make more sense then saying '2 hour session of all hazardous work' makes a fuck load more sense. Spread it out instead of trying to cram it into 2 hours of throat hell. Either way I think anything that's 'absolute' is a bullshit thing. And I don't think any of it is actually meant to be an absolute. PapaCharlie9 : As far as bonuses the games industry does it often for the developer wide. Though I don't know if theres ever much of a concrete 'it's usually like this' for them. But generally it's a if the game does well people get a bonus for it. Rather public one was Bungie with Destiny which for whatever moronic reason they agreed to there bonus being tied to a fucking Metacritic score. Literally had to get over a 90 for them to get there bonus with in I think the first month? That failed miserably lol and they didn't get shit for it. Which when you think about it is kinda standard for every business fucking everywhere. People with 9 to 5's get there weekly/monthly checks and every once in awhile get some kinda bonus. Usually around some holiday or something or other. Sometimes it's just an overly productive year and everyone gets a sexy bonus or whatever. Gaming industry isn't any different except they have big ass milestones of game releases for those bonuses to be centered around. I think a bonus is usually based around some sorta sales target figure. Pretty sure the original 2012 Tomb Raider reboot failed to meet there lofty '6 or 7 million mark' in the first half a year and was considered a failure rather publicly. Everyone scoffed at how absurdly stupid that was since it had sold over 4 million which is generally considered a success. I'm pretty sure they didn't get there bonuses due to that. Literally the only people who aren't apart of that are the VA, they get there payment for a job and it's freelance so that's that, or that's how it's been. On an aside to all of this. Games are also looking at being more of a service on top of just straight sales. They're heavily investing in the games longevity, people actually sticking to the game over a longer period of time. Yeah they want you to buy that game, but they also want you to still be playing it 5 months later, in hopes that means you'll pick up DLC and/or buy into whatever cosmetic/microtransaction packs they have to further increase profits. Think it was recently reported GTA 5 has been making 700 million a year, or at least this last year. That's a general fuck-ton of money and it was made entirely from the online microtransactions (all there MP DLC is free so it just more incentive to throw money to get in game money to buy the new DLC shit I guess). Anyway, most games aren't GTA, but even a 10th of that is solid revenue for a game that you already sold your 4-8 million copys of. Kinda makes you wonder what ME3 pulled in back in the day for that first year just from the MP alone doesn't it?
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Oct 18, 2016 20:45:34 GMT
My take on it is to trust the process. The VAs have a Union, the Union is fighting to expand benefits for their members as unions are supposed to, and the market will dictate each side's leverage. I can't manage investing much emotional energy in it either way.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 20:50:56 GMT
What suggests that it isn't fair? The amount? Just because 100 is bigger than 11? So there's no accounting for skill, experience, or value of the final product? The point Adhin was trying to make is that, to attract a skilled/talented/experienced professional to do part-time work, you need to compensate appropriately. Again, it goes to opportunity cost. If an actor signs up for a 12 hour a week gig for 3 weeks that precludes that actor from taking a full-time gig for the same 3 weeks, how much do you pay them to make it worth the risk? Put another way, if you want to guarantee that only unproven, untrained and inexperienced VA's provide VO for AAA games, pay them no more than $11/hour. No, you were implying that just because they only work part time that alone justified being paid more than they currently do. Part-time work is part time work regardless of the wage (don't get hung up on the $ value I gave... that's just around the figure that flipping burgers gets you here in Alberta - which is a common part-time employment). Just because the sort of job works 4-hour days (or 2) doesn't mean I should be guaranteed the same end result of money as a job a similar level of skill and training that works an 8-hour day. Voice actors, for example, don't have to spend hours in a makeup chair prior to starting a recording session. Actors do. So, what I'm getting at is a full-time burger flipper standing on their feet for 8 hours might make $88 bucks in a day; but that doesn't mean a student coming in after school for a 4-hour shift should be getting $22 bucks an hour to get the same day rate just because they can't work a full 8-hour shift. If a little bit of screaming is involved in the VA session, the union wants to cut it to 2-hours maximum with no loss of pay... so, that is effectively doubling the wage for that session if there's anything stressful on the voice box in the material being recorded. Who would make that judgment... well, probably the "stunt coach" the union wants present at every recording session as well... which is another salary the company would, of course, be expected to pay. I wasn't even suggesting that $100 per hour was either fair or unfair... that part, if you'll note was worded as a question. It's the "hidden" doubling factor here that I don't think is fair. I get what you are saying, and if all else were equal (skill, experience, risk), I'd be in complete agreement. But they aren't equal. Your example of the part-time burger flipper vs. the full-time isn't relevant, because that's all unskilled labor, where workers are more-or-less interchangeable (they aren't, not by a long shot, but that's the way employers of unskilled labor tend to treat workers). That sort of math isn't going to work for skilled labor, particularly skilled labor that's in high demand and/or has marquee value.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 21:03:57 GMT
No, you were implying that just because they only work part time that alone justified being paid more than they currently do. Part-time work is part time work regardless of the wage (don't get hung up on the $ value I gave... that's just around the figure that flipping burgers gets you here in Alberta - which is a common part-time employment). Just because the sort of job works 4-hour days (or 2) doesn't mean I should be guaranteed the same end result of money as a job a similar level of skill and training that works an 8-hour day. Voice actors, for example, don't have to spend hours in a makeup chair prior to starting a recording session. Actors do. So, what I'm getting at is a full-time burger flipper standing on their feet for 8 hours might make $88 bucks in a day; but that doesn't mean a student coming in after school for a 4-hour shift should be getting $22 bucks an hour to get the same day rate just because they can't work a full 8-hour shift. If a little bit of screaming is involved in the VA session, the union wants to cut it to 2-hours maximum with no loss of pay... so, that is effectively doubling the wage for that session if there's anything stressful on the voice box in the material being recorded. Who would make that judgment... well, probably the "stunt coach" the union wants present at every recording session as well... which is another salary the company would, of course, be expected to pay. I wasn't even suggesting that $100 per hour was either fair or unfair... that part, if you'll note was worded as a question. It's the "hidden" doubling factor here that I don't think is fair. I get what you are saying, and if all else were equal (skill, experience, risk), I'd be in complete agreement. But they aren't equal. Your example of the part-time burger flipper vs. the full-time isn't relevant, because that's all unskilled labor, where workers are more-or-less interchangeable (they aren't, not by a long shot, but that's the way employers of unskilled labor tend to treat workers). That sort of math isn't going to work for skilled labor, particularly skilled labor that's in high demand and/or has marquee value. ... and VAs can and do negotiate substantially higher rates of pay that the minimum scale the union is negotiating for... so demand and marquee value is factored in on that level. You're still misunderstanding - Should 1 VA whose doing a few screams here and there be paid, at minimum, double what a VA doing normal talking is getting just because they can't be expected to to a full 4-hour session? After a two-hour session is done, what's to stop that "screaming" VA from going across the street and doing another 2-hour session for someone else... getting double for the 4-hour day than the other VA? Wouldn't it be better if the demanding work were lumped into the last 1/2 hour of a 4-hour recording session.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 21:05:07 GMT
I'm certain an expose on EA executive compensation and how much each pocketed for, let's say, DAI to date, would be quite illuminating. Oh, that would be lovely, but what it has to do with VA strike? And your assumption that that hypothetical sum could be shared among developers and VAs is hilarious! Can you give an example of such redistribution? Any company, any area of work? It will be exactly that - additional cost for the consumers, nothing more. Adhin does that for me above, see that reply. But just humor me for a moment and imagine a hypothetical situation where full-time salaried folks in the Bioware studio get some kind of upside bonus if the game does well. If, hypothetically, that were true, wouldn't it be a good idea to extend a similar upside bonus to VAs? Given their undeniable contribution to the overall success of the game? Does the fact that they are non-salaried, freelance, contract, part-time workers make a difference to that contribution? I don't understand why. What's your beef with performance artists? Why do you automatically assume animators and programmers are more worthy? As I said in an earlier reply, what I've read of the day-to-day experience of VAs makes me sympathetic to their action here. Of course, that's only one side of the story, and I think some of the things we see in the industry's demands, like penalties for being excessively late or for only phoning in the work, suggest that VAs aren't universally saints in this. I never claimed they were. I expect people to disagree (given any debate with 2 sides, there will be at least 142 sides people will take, that's just the human condition) and have no problem with that. What I don't understand are the statements that seem rather energetically anti-VA, anti-union, or anti-people earning shitloads of money.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 21:09:43 GMT
I get what you are saying, and if all else were equal (skill, experience, risk), I'd be in complete agreement. But they aren't equal. Your example of the part-time burger flipper vs. the full-time isn't relevant, because that's all unskilled labor, where workers are more-or-less interchangeable (they aren't, not by a long shot, but that's the way employers of unskilled labor tend to treat workers). That sort of math isn't going to work for skilled labor, particularly skilled labor that's in high demand and/or has marquee value. ... and VAs can and do negotiate substantially higher rates of pay that the minimum scale the union is negotiating for... so demand is factored in on that level. You're still misunderstanidng - Should 1 VA whose doing ja few screams here and there be paid, at minimum, double what a VA doing normal talking is getting just because they can't be expected to to a full 4-hour session? No, of course not. I didn't say so earlier because I thought it was obvious. I'm not sure how your "is $100/hr fair" question relates to that, but if I took that out of context, I apologize.
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Post by fade9wayz on Oct 18, 2016 21:35:27 GMT
Workers in general should definitely be better compensated when their working conditions are potentially dangerous/harmful. However I'd think it's something that should be negotiated between employee and employers, as wage. People working on pipelines and oil refineries in dangerous areas get comparatively better salaries and advantages than their counterparts working in peaceful areas, but I haven't heard of any of them getting automatic bonuses once a certain amount of oil has gone through the pipe, or get a share on their company's benefits.
The only case I personally know where cuts on benefits were offered to artists and animators for working on a video game (a phone app), is a project that didn't have enough budget to pay them fairly to begin with. I seem to recall having heard the seven dwarves of Disney (again) getting such cuts on benefits, but I'm not sure. I will get back to you about this if I manage to get confirmation.
Otherwise, when free-lancers negotiate their fee with their customer, experience, compensation for average vacancy, insurances, and other possible costs (participation in the aquisition of a specific software, pencils used, transportation, whatever) are usually included, just like a company offering services would. The more a free-lance is sought-after, the more they can ask of course. Unions are there to ensure there's a baseline under which these fees shouldn't go. My company used to contract another one for theater calibration of the (short) movies we make. They charge about 3000 $ for a half-day work. Experienced free-lancers in compositing can also charge quite a steep fee. I don't remember the exact figure, but I can ask my boss tomorrow.
Edit: the nine old men, not the seven dwarves. Faulty, faulty memory.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 18, 2016 21:42:31 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ One concern I have is the "draconian" working condition some actors have to go through.
For example (from Wil Wheaton): Wheaton pointed out that work conditions for voice actors can sometimes be grueling or even dangerous, with roles requiring them to shout lines repeatedly until their voice is shot for the rest of the day, or take on complicated motion capture stunts without the help of a stunt coordinator.
Google search has opened my eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 22:20:48 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ One concern I have is the "draconian" working condition some actors have to go through.
For example (from Wil Wheaton): Wheaton pointed out that work conditions for voice actors can sometimes be grueling or even dangerous, with roles requiring them to shout lines repeatedly until their voice is shot for the rest of the day, or take on complicated motion capture stunts without the help of a stunt coordinator.
Google search has opened my eyes.
... but arbitrarily halving the workday at double the hourly rate doesn't address that issue really. Two hours of "voice-box hell" is not as healthful in my eyes as, say, requiring that stuff be limited to X minute sessions with X minute or X hour break times in between - or limiting that stuff to the latter, say, 1/4 of the session the end of the day. Also, as I said above, what would stop a freelancing VA from doing one 2-hour session one place and then doing another for another developer in the same day? Since it's part-time freelance work, the answer is probably nothing... and doing that is something some might be prepared to consider (even if it risks damaging their voice) since it would be an effective doubling of the money they would make in a 4-hour day.
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