fade9wayz
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: Aresis01
Posts: 190 Likes: 286
inherit
1127
0
Jun 18, 2017 22:17:50 GMT
286
fade9wayz
190
August 2016
fade9wayz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Aresis01
|
Post by fade9wayz on Oct 18, 2016 22:43:02 GMT
I should add that in Europe, the original author of a movie, the director and the music compositor get a percentage on distribution rights, and they keep legal rights over their product. The other artists and technicians contracted for the movie don't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
133
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 22:43:45 GMT
VA: Hey, I'm home.
SO of VA: Hi, how was your day?
VA: It was awful ... grueling ... four hours of using my voice loudly.
SO of VA: Oh, the humanity. Sit down, I've made you some hot chocolate. You'll feel better.
VA: What did you do today?
SO of VA: Well, that case I was working on, we busted the perps today. Jenkins got shot, but he'll recover. Williams got banged up a bit, but nothing serious. I would have taken a pipe to the face, but Harding shot the guy. So ... busy day, but it happens. Oh, your sister called, she's headed back out on deployment ... doesn't expect this one to go past six months, so she should be back in the spring, maybe even in time for your video game's release. Watch out, the cocoa's hot, don't want to burn yourself.
[fade to black]
|
|
Amirit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 460 Likes: 594
inherit
1019
0
594
Amirit
460
Aug 16, 2016 17:49:54 GMT
August 2016
amirit
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Amirit on Oct 18, 2016 23:17:32 GMT
But just humor me for a moment and imagine a hypothetical situation where full-time salaried folks in the Bioware studio get some kind of upside bonus if the game does well. If, hypothetically, that were true, wouldn't it be a good idea to extend a similar upside bonus to VAs? Given their undeniable contribution to the overall success of the game? Does the fact that they are non-salaried, freelance, contract, part-time workers make a difference to that contribution? It does. They (VAs) are a flavor, developers - are creators of the game. fade9wayz gave a perfect example with the oil factory workers (1 post below yours I am answering to). Btw, how often did you hear "oh, the game is perfect, because that VA voiced it!" or "I will never touch that junk it has that VA in it"? VAs contribution is way secondary to games success. Fallout 4 (or any Bethesda game with one-actor-voice-them-all) just recently proved that fact again. Games are far from the movies where actors is almost everything. Yet, those actors already get more then most of those who truly make the game successful. What's your beef with performance artists? Why do you automatically assume animators and programmers are more worthy? My "beef" is with people who have a lot already but demand more ahead of those who has much less. And with those who think this is the right thing to do. As I said in an earlier reply, what I've read of the day-to-day experience of VAs makes me sympathetic to their action here. Oh, I remember those sob stories too. The part about necessity to drink a lot of tee and fighting with heartless sound-operators for the right to use cell-phone during recording session made my cry. I totally understand your sympathy! I expect people to disagree (given any debate with 2 sides, there will be at least 142 sides people will take, that's just the human condition) and have no problem with that. What I don't understand are the statements that seem rather energetically anti-VA, anti-union, or anti-people earning shitloads of money. Nobody here is anti-VA. Some are reasonably concerned about motives of unions. And as about your last accusation I can only repeat: when people who already "earning shitloads of money" demand even more for no reason but "because we want so" - that does make people frown at such demand.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 23:44:57 GMT
Workers in general should definitely be better compensated when their working conditions are potentially dangerous/harmful. However I'd think it's something that should be negotiated between employee and employers, as wage. People working on pipelines and oil refineries in dangerous areas get comparatively better salaries and advantages than their counterparts working in peaceful areas, but I haven't heard of any of them getting automatic bonuses once a certain amount of oil has gone through the pipe, or get a share on their company's benefits. The only case I personally know where cuts on benefits were offered to artists and animators for working on a video game (a phone app), is a project that didn't have enough budget to pay them fairly to begin with. I seem to recall having heard the seven dwarves of Disney (again) getting such cuts on benefits, but I'm not sure. I will get back to you about this if I manage to get confirmation. Otherwise, when free-lancers negotiate their fee with their customer, experience, compensation for average vacancy, insurances, and other possible costs (participation in the aquisition of a specific software, pencils used, transportation, whatever) are usually included, just like a company offering services would. The more a free-lance is sought-after, the more they can ask of course. Unions are there to ensure there's a baseline under which these fees shouldn't go. My company used to contract another one for theater calibration of the (short) movies we make. They charge about 3000 $ for a half-day work. Experienced free-lancers in compositing can also charge quite a steep fee. I don't remember the exact figure, but I can ask my boss tomorrow. This is why I think something is lost when we focus on attributes like "freelance" and "part-time", and not on the attribute that's most important, which is "performance artist." Drawing conclusions from a theater calibrator or a compositor is not equivalent. One example why: no video game has ever used the name of a compositor to market the game. Nor invited them to a convention to sit on a panel and talk with fans. Not that "performance artists" doesn't have it's own gray areas: mocap stunt people are likely watching this whole strike situation closely. They have a lot more in common than with the contractor hired to make sure the netcode is hard to hack. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ One concern I have is the "draconian" working condition some actors have to go through.
For example (from Wil Wheaton): Wheaton pointed out that work conditions for voice actors can sometimes be grueling or even dangerous, with roles requiring them to shout lines repeatedly until their voice is shot for the rest of the day, or take on complicated motion capture stunts without the help of a stunt coordinator.
Google search has opened my eyes.
... but arbitrarily halving the workday at double the hourly rate doesn't address that issue really. Two hours of "voice-box hell" is not as healthful in my eyes as, say, requiring that stuff be limited to X minute sessions with X minute or X hour break times in between - or limiting that stuff to the latter, say, 1/4 of the session the end of the day. Agreed. Adhin used the doubling/halving as an example and I agree it's a bad example, but the underlying point is still valid: part-timers might be giving up something that full-timers don't. Apropos ...I assume VA's are under contract, and that the contract blocks them from performing in similar games, or perhaps any other games, while under contract. As a studio, you wouldn't want some dumb actor blabbing about the lines they just read in the morning to your competitor -- note the demand that studios relax secrecy so that VAs can at least know what game they are performing for! I could be very wrong about all that, though. I should add that in Europe, the original author of a movie, the director and the music compositor get a percentage on distribution rights, and they keep legal rights over their product. The other artists and technicians contracted for the movie don't. Surely producers get a percentage also?!
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 18, 2016 23:48:57 GMT
VA: Hey, I'm home.
SO of VA: Hi, how was your day?
VA: It was awful ... grueling ... four hours of using my voice loudly.
SO of VA: Oh, the humanity. Sit down, I've made you some hot chocolate. You'll feel better.
VA: What did you do today?
SO of VA: Well, that case I was working on, we busted the perps today. Jenkins got shot, but he'll recover. Williams got banged up a bit, but nothing serious. I would have taken a pipe to the face, but Harding shot the guy. So ... busy day, but it happens. Oh, your sister called, she's headed back out on deployment ... doesn't expect this one to go past six months, so she should be back in the spring, maybe even in time for your video game's release. Watch out, the cocoa's hot, don't want to burn yourself.
[fade to black] Although, you know, there are a lot of jobs that contribute to a AAA game that could be slotted in place of the VA and be just as funny a contrast. Maybe even more so. Put "EA exec" in there and I'd LMAO.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 19, 2016 0:30:24 GMT
But just humor me for a moment and imagine a hypothetical situation where full-time salaried folks in the Bioware studio get some kind of upside bonus if the game does well. If, hypothetically, that were true, wouldn't it be a good idea to extend a similar upside bonus to VAs? Given their undeniable contribution to the overall success of the game? Does the fact that they are non-salaried, freelance, contract, part-time workers make a difference to that contribution? It does. They (VAs) are a flavor, developers - are creators of the game. fade9wayz gave a perfect example with the oil factory workers (1 post below yours I am answering to). Btw, how often did you hear "oh, the game is perfect, because that VA voiced it!" or "I will never touch that junk it has that VA in it"? VAs contribution is way secondary to games success. Fallout 4 (or any Bethesda game with one-actor-voice-them-all) just recently proved that fact again. Games are far from the movies where actors is almost everything. Yet, those actors already get more then most of those who truly make the game successful. What's your beef with performance artists? Why do you automatically assume animators and programmers are more worthy? My "beef" is with people who have a lot already but demand more ahead of those who has much less. And with those who think this is the right thing to do. As I said in an earlier reply, what I've read of the day-to-day experience of VAs makes me sympathetic to their action here. Oh, I remember those sob stories too. The part about necessity to drink a lot of tee and fighting with heartless sound-operators for the right to use cell-phone during recording session made my cry. I totally understand your sympathy! I expect people to disagree (given any debate with 2 sides, there will be at least 142 sides people will take, that's just the human condition) and have no problem with that. What I don't understand are the statements that seem rather energetically anti-VA, anti-union, or anti-people earning shitloads of money. Nobody here is anti-VA. Some are reasonably concerned about motives of unions. And as about your last accusation I can only repeat: when people who already "earning shitloads of money" demand even more for no reason but "because we want so" - that does make people frown at such demand. I thought that's where you were coming from, but good to have it clear. For my part, I don't agree, pretty much across the board. But I'll only address the very first statement, that "(VAs) are a flavor, developers - are creators of the game". Don't get me wrong. I'm a software developer and I have a pretty good idea of what the engineering team contributes to a AAA game, though I've never worked in the game industry myself. Of course coding is an important contribution. But there is no denying, when there's a panel on Mass Effect or Dragon Age at a fan convention, they don't invite the dev that coded all the AI, or that optimized render engine performance to squeeze 15% more FPS out of low-end GPUs. But they do invite voice actors. Why do you suppose that's true? www.mcmbuzz.com/blog/2014/03/25/courtenay-taylor-mass-effect-panel-at-mcm-birmingham-comic-con/www.mcmbuzz.com/blog/2015/05/24/love-is-love-mass-effects-mark-meer-and-ali-hillis-panel-at-mcm-london-comic-con/Maybe that's bad. Maybe fans, cons and the marketing department of Bioware should show more appreciation for all those great folks that write the code or design the levels, like our own sjosz, but the reality is that doesn't happen. And don't kid yourself that all those appearances don't have marketing value, they clearly do, particularly with name recognition like a Martin Sheen. So, maybe a tad more contribution to the success of a AAA game than just flavor. Not a majority, maybe not even a plurality, maybe not even equal to the contribution of coders and level designers, but certainly an important contribution. One might even argue that a defining characteristic of a AAA game is it's high quality VO. It wouldn't be AAA without big name VAs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 0:36:03 GMT
Workers in general should definitely be better compensated when their working conditions are potentially dangerous/harmful. However I'd think it's something that should be negotiated between employee and employers, as wage. People working on pipelines and oil refineries in dangerous areas get comparatively better salaries and advantages than their counterparts working in peaceful areas, but I haven't heard of any of them getting automatic bonuses once a certain amount of oil has gone through the pipe, or get a share on their company's benefits. The only case I personally know where cuts on benefits were offered to artists and animators for working on a video game (a phone app), is a project that didn't have enough budget to pay them fairly to begin with. I seem to recall having heard the seven dwarves of Disney (again) getting such cuts on benefits, but I'm not sure. I will get back to you about this if I manage to get confirmation. Otherwise, when free-lancers negotiate their fee with their customer, experience, compensation for average vacancy, insurances, and other possible costs (participation in the aquisition of a specific software, pencils used, transportation, whatever) are usually included, just like a company offering services would. The more a free-lance is sought-after, the more they can ask of course. Unions are there to ensure there's a baseline under which these fees shouldn't go. My company used to contract another one for theater calibration of the (short) movies we make. They charge about 3000 $ for a half-day work. Experienced free-lancers in compositing can also charge quite a steep fee. I don't remember the exact figure, but I can ask my boss tomorrow. This is why I think something is lost when we focus on attributes like "freelance" and "part-time", and not on the attribute that's most important, which is "performance artist." Drawing conclusions from a theater calibrator or a compositor is not equivalent. One example why: no video game has ever used the name of a compositor to market the game. Nor invited them to a convention to sit on a panel and talk with fans. Not that "performance artists" doesn't have it's own gray areas: mocap stunt people are likely watching this whole strike situation closely. They have a lot more in common than with the contractor hired to make sure the netcode is hard to hack. ... but arbitrarily halving the workday at double the hourly rate doesn't address that issue really. Two hours of "voice-box hell" is not as healthful in my eyes as, say, requiring that stuff be limited to X minute sessions with X minute or X hour break times in between - or limiting that stuff to the latter, say, 1/4 of the session the end of the day. Agreed. Adhin used the doubling/halving as an example and I agree it's a bad example, but the underlying point is still valid: part-timers might be giving up something that full-timers don't. Apropos ...I assume VA's are under contract, and that the contract blocks them from performing in similar games, or perhaps any other games, while under contract. As a studio, you wouldn't want some dumb actor blabbing about the lines they just read in the morning to your competitor -- note the demand that studios relax secrecy so that VAs can at least know what game they are performing for! I could be very wrong about all that, though. I should add that in Europe, the original author of a movie, the director and the music compositor get a percentage on distribution rights, and they keep legal rights over their product. The other artists and technicians contracted for the movie don't. Surely producers get a percentage also?! I would think there would be labor laws preventing a company from restricting a part-time freelancer from finding other work in their field as long as the hours involved in that work did not directly conflict with the hours scheduled. They can, I'm sure, put in a confidentiality agreement that would subject the VA to a lawsuit if they blabbed, but as far as preventing them from earning a living... I don't think that's legal... at least not here in Canada. So... to put that more clearly... I don't think there would be anything stopping a VA from "double" dipping by working one intense two-hour session for one company followed by another intense two-hour session for another company... even though that might risk injuring their voice box. In fact, the higher rate of pay for the intense work might tempt some into taking more of it than would be healthiest for their own voice boxes. The answer to not overstressing voice boxes is not in just increasing the rate of pay for it or in limiting the developer... the limitation has to be placed on the VA such that they cannot accept more than, say, 2 hours of intense voice work in a 24-hour period regardless of who they do it for. One thing people forget to point out about COO bonuses is that they generally need to be approved by the Board of Directors (who are usually shareholders of the company) and such bonuses are usually not issued unless the company IS performing profitably. Some bonus packages also aren't totally issued in cash... but are issued in shares of the company. At any rate, if the game sells but the company is not profitable because costs were too high, it is unlikely that the Board would approve the COO getting a big bonus. As stated previously, the proposal set out by SAG-AFTRA hits the company with a fixed-rate performance bonus, the first payment of which would be due at the 2 million sales mark (which is where, according to SAG-AFTRA itself, just the point where the average game starts to make a profit... i.e. it's just breaking even). This is proposing to put the cart before the horse... i.e. the VAs getting pieces of a pie that is only starting to bake at that point in time. I don't mind the VAs being invited to the table for pie... I just don't think the VAs should be able to get to the table and eat the pie BEFORE everyone else... and before the producers even really know if there is a pie to share out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
691
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 1:06:14 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ One concern I have is the "draconian" working condition some actors have to go through.
For example (from Wil Wheaton): Wheaton pointed out that work conditions for voice actors can sometimes be grueling or even dangerous, with roles requiring them to shout lines repeatedly until their voice is shot for the rest of the day, or take on complicated motion capture stunts without the help of a stunt coordinator.
Google search has opened my eyes.
... but arbitrarily halving the workday at double the hourly rate doesn't address that issue really. Two hours of "voice-box hell" is not as healthful in my eyes as, say, requiring that stuff be limited to X minute sessions with X minute or X hour break times in between - or limiting that stuff to the latter, say, 1/4 of the session the end of the day. Also, as I said above, what would stop a freelancing VA from doing one 2-hour session one place and then doing another for another developer in the same day? Since it's part-time freelance work, the answer is probably nothing... and doing that is something some might be prepared to consider (even if it risks damaging their voice) since it would be an effective doubling of the money they would make in a 4-hour day. Need to take into account that there is no " one universal studio" the voice actors can just drive to and record all of their projects there. Certain projects are always recorded at different facilities in different towns or states (as an example, anime projects and Gearbox video games are done in Texas, most video games are done in Southern California or San Francisco). Certain video games are now having the voice actors do motion and/or performance capture (i.e. Uncharted, Halo, Last of Us, and Until Dawn being such examples ), and those projects are extremely time-consuming. Whatever projects voice actors are NOT on, their days are spent on auditions trying to book their respective jobs. Problem is the time commitments fluctuate on the demand of the project, and the actors' availability. As an example, Laura Bailey's work schedule with Halo 5 prevented her from getting involved in further Persona 4 spin-offs (Dancing All Night). Keep in mind, Performance capture work is 5 hours or longer, the equivalent of having a daytime or night-time shoot for a live action movie.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 1:24:54 GMT
... but arbitrarily halving the workday at double the hourly rate doesn't address that issue really. Two hours of "voice-box hell" is not as healthful in my eyes as, say, requiring that stuff be limited to X minute sessions with X minute or X hour break times in between - or limiting that stuff to the latter, say, 1/4 of the session the end of the day. Also, as I said above, what would stop a freelancing VA from doing one 2-hour session one place and then doing another for another developer in the same day? Since it's part-time freelance work, the answer is probably nothing... and doing that is something some might be prepared to consider (even if it risks damaging their voice) since it would be an effective doubling of the money they would make in a 4-hour day. Need to take into account that there is no " one universal studio" the voice actors can just drive to and record all of their projects there. Certain projects are always recorded at different facilities in different towns or states (as an example, anime projects and Gearbox video games are done in Texas, most video games are done in Southern California or San Francisco). Certain video games are now having the voice actors do motion and/or performance capture (i.e. Uncharted, Halo, Last of Us, and Until Dawn being such examples ), and those projects are extremely time-consuming. Whatever projects voice actors are NOT on, their days are spent on auditions trying to book their respective jobs. Problem is the time commitments fluctuate on the demand of the project, and the actors' availability. As an example, Laura Bailey's work schedule with Halo 5 prevented her from getting involved in further Persona 4 spin-offs (Dancing All Night). Keep in mind, Performance capture work is 5 hours or longer, the equivalent of having a daytime or night-time shoot for a live action movie. Oh cry me a river. Two 2-hour sessions of voice work even with a 6-hour drive between them is still the same as an 8-hour day with an "average" commute. The principle of the matter still stands... If the union is truly wanting to address voice-box over-stress, they aren't regulating the right end of the stick. They are really just making the more stressful work more attractive than the less stressful stuff because it becomes worth $double/hour. Maybe, instead of a stunt coodinator attending voice sessions, they need an onsite nurse qualified to determine if a VA's voice box is getting stressed and with the ability to call for a suitable break in the session to allow the VA's voice box to recover (of course, that a stunt coordinator would still be appropriate when mocap is being done).
|
|
pdusen
N3
Posts: 296 Likes: 974
inherit
394
0
974
pdusen
296
August 2016
pdusen
|
Post by pdusen on Oct 19, 2016 1:56:41 GMT
In the interest of promoting reading comprehension: the union isn't asking for actors to have a share of the profits, they're asking for bonus rates based on the performance of the game. There's nothing weird or outrageous about that. i.e. Flat-rated performance bonuses that kick in just when the average game finishes breaking even... which is worse than a true profit sharing program... that would at least confirm that actual profits exist first rather than just an arbitrary 2 million copies sold (which just assumes that the game, regardless of its costs, would be profitable at that point). That's one hell of a kneejerk reaction you just had there. How can it possibly be worse than profit sharing when it's a finite amount? Profit sharing would go on indefinitely.
|
|
inherit
231
0
Jan 20, 2022 14:46:14 GMT
1,840
goishen
twitch.tv/goishen
2,360
August 2016
goishen
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
goishen
|
Post by goishen on Oct 19, 2016 2:11:43 GMT
It all depends on how the contact was written. If the contract says you only get profit sharing for two years, that's all you get.
|
|
helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
Posts: 1,854 Likes: 2,479
inherit
867
0
2,479
helios969
Kamisama
1,854
August 2016
helios969
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
|
Post by helios969 on Oct 19, 2016 10:48:47 GMT
You remember correctly and last time public was not informed about results of the strike. It looks like they still demand some percents from the sales: Negotiations have been underway on topics such as “contingent compensation,” or residual payments based on profit sharing.People in support need to be willing to shell out 90$ for the game and 30$ for DLCs. Just saying. Nonsense. You are assuming that there's no margin in either historical or projected profit to spread around a bit more. If EA franchises chronically run on thin margins, you'd have a point. But EA is not Walmart. Margins on software in general are huge in comparison. AAA games might be a bit tighter -- the costs certainly are high -- but we're talking 21% instead of 38%, numbers like that, compared to the 3%? a grocery store makes. Even if half of that goes into re-investment (hah!), that's still 10% that's going into the profit-sharing plans of EA executives. I'm certain an expose on EA executive compensation and how much each pocketed for, let's say, DAI to date, would be quite illuminating. BTW, for those who were trying to pit devs at Bioware against the VAs, it would be interesting to know if devs, level designers, artists, etc. on the team get any sort of profit sharing bonuses or equity in their packages. It's not inconceivable that basically everyone else has a finger in the pie except for VAs. Lol, when's the last time you met an exec or shareholder or generally anyone willing to take less money to keep costs down. Seems unlikely EA's solution is to spread the money around more "evenly". In reality the consequences will be more intrusive that a straight increase in game selling price, but more in-game microtransactions...and frankly I'd just rather pay the extra money up front to keep that shit out of the game. You raise an interesting point regarding game designers getting a slice of the pie. I'd really like to know myself. If the answer is no, then the VA's definitely need to shut up. If yes, then it's a reasonable request since their contributions are also important to the overall game's success. Percentage wise what it should be I have no idea. All I know if I were a coder, artist, or writer and spent the last 3 years and 6-8K hours of my life on a game I'd expect more than someone who came in for a week or two of voice acting.
|
|
inherit
68
0
11,818
Obliviousmiss
I'm always wearing pajamas. It doesn't mean I get enough sleep.
3,200
August 2016
obliviousmiss
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by Obliviousmiss on Oct 19, 2016 12:20:35 GMT
I love you all.....but..... Here, everyone. Take one!
|
|
inherit
410
0
May 17, 2024 23:59:22 GMT
2,864
Sartoz
6,062
August 2016
sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Sartoz on Oct 19, 2016 13:30:15 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
To make sure we are all commenting about the content of the same page, open the Spoiler below: From Wheaton . The most frequent complaint, I get: “actors work for maybe a few days at most on a game, and they want residual payments?! Programmers and others who work on those same games spend literally years of their lives on them, and they don’t get residuals! Actors are greedy jerks!”
Summary of Union Issues are:One Limit stressful vocal sessions not applicable to normal sessionsTwo Refusal by employer to hire stunt safety coordinators to protect actors’ well-being
Three Our employers want to be able to fine you $2,500 if you show up late or are not “attentive to the services for which [you] have been engaged.” This means you could be fined for almost anything: checking an incoming text, posting to your Twitter feed, even zoning out for a second. If a producer feels you are being “inattentive,” they want the option to fine you $2,500.
Four Our employers want to be able to fine the union $50,000-$100,000 if your franchised agent doesn’t send you out on certain auditions (like Atmospheric Voices or One Hour One Voice sessions)?
Five If your agent chooses not to submit you for certain auditions, our employers want to put into our contract language forcing SAG-AFTRA to revoke your agent’s union franchise. This would mean that your agency would not be able to send you out on any union jobs, including those in animation, TV/film, commercials, etc.
I'm really surprised at some of the employer demands.
|
|
Adhin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 512 Likes: 523
inherit
996
0
Sept 3, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
523
Adhin
512
Aug 15, 2016 13:14:38 GMT
August 2016
adhin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Adhin on Oct 19, 2016 13:38:17 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
To make sure we are all commenting about the content of the same page, open the Spoiler below: From Wheaton . The most frequent complaint, I get: “actors work for maybe a few days at most on a game, and they want residual payments?! Programmers and others who work on those same games spend literally years of their lives on them, and they don’t get residuals! Actors are greedy jerks!”
Summary of Union Issues are:One Limit stressful vocal sessions not applicable to normal sessionsTwo Refusal by employer to hire stunt safety coordinators to protect actors’ well-being
Three Our employers want to be able to fine you $2,500 if you show up late or are not “attentive to the services for which [you] have been engaged.” This means you could be fined for almost anything: checking an incoming text, posting to your Twitter feed, even zoning out for a second. If a producer feels you are being “inattentive,” they want the option to fine you $2,500.
Four Our employers want to be able to fine the union $50,000-$100,000 if your franchised agent doesn’t send you out on certain auditions (like Atmospheric Voices or One Hour One Voice sessions)?
Five If your agent chooses not to submit you for certain auditions, our employers want to put into our contract language forcing SAG-AFTRA to revoke your agent’s union franchise. This would mean that your agency would not be able to send you out on any union jobs, including those in animation, TV/film, commercials, etc.
I'm really surprised at some of the employer demands. Yeah, a lot of the 'demands' by the gaming side are a little batshit crazy. And the whole 'stunt safety coordinator' isn't for the damn VO booth like people seem to keep talking about it. That's for mo-cap work. When they're doing action stuff. No one needs a damn stunt safety coordinator for talking into a fucking microphone seriously lol.
|
|
Monk
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MonkMcMueller
PSN: Monk_McMueller
Prime Posts: 600, something, something
Posts: 1,074 Likes: 1,370
inherit
347
0
1,370
Monk
1,074
August 2016
monkmcmueller
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
MonkMcMueller
Monk_McMueller
600, something, something
|
Post by Monk on Oct 19, 2016 13:48:14 GMT
but as far as preventing them from earning a living... I don't think that's legal... at least not here in Canada. I might have the exact name wrong but it's called a no-competition clause and is quite legal in the U.S. And while i've only read about it in software development, i wouldn't be surprised that it would apply to VO work as well. You raise an interesting point regarding game designers getting a slice of the pie. I'd really like to know myself. If the answer is no, then the VA's definitely need to shut up. That's a great sentiment. These guys are fucked so these guys overhere should be fucked as well. How about, instead, the designers get a union going. While occasionally unions aren't exceptionally helpful, more often than not, it's the only thing guaranteeing fair wage for workers. I recall someone joking about testers getting a union going. But, honestly, i don't think they were joking. Personally, i hope a deal is reached that's fair to the VO's, and if not, well, if the game's delayed, it gets delayed. The time frame mentioned could affect MEA and i'd rather the VO's get proper benefits than BioWare releasing a questionable product.
|
|
MissOuJ
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: MissOuJ
Posts: 78 Likes: 166
inherit
158
0
166
MissOuJ
78
August 2016
missouj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
MissOuJ
|
Post by MissOuJ on Oct 19, 2016 14:34:29 GMT
VA: Hey, I'm home.
SO of VA: Hi, how was your day?
VA: It was awful ... grueling ... four hours of using my voice loudly.
SO of VA: Oh, the humanity. Sit down, I've made you some hot chocolate. You'll feel better.
VA: What did you do today?
SO of VA: Well, that case I was working on, we busted the perps today. Jenkins got shot, but he'll recover. Williams got banged up a bit, but nothing serious. I would have taken a pipe to the face, but Harding shot the guy. So ... busy day, but it happens. Oh, your sister called, she's headed back out on deployment ... doesn't expect this one to go past six months, so she should be back in the spring, maybe even in time for your video game's release. Watch out, the cocoa's hot, don't want to burn yourself.
[fade to black] You are aware that VA's voices are what pays VAs wages? I doubt they get sick pay for days of work missed because of bruised vocal cords / vocal hemorrhage (and do yourself a favour and Google Image search that... or, you know, don't) because they spent 7,5 hours screaming two days in a row - and that's what they're talking about limiting: vocally stressful sessions. The SGA has no problem with VAs recording 7-8 hours of regular, How-do-you-do-Wanna-hear-my-life-story? -dialogue. And comparing two professions with very different requirements is kinda dumb, since I could also claim with reasonable scientific evidence that white collar office work is deadly, since sitting for prolonged periods is bad for your health. (And also: where is police getting shot a "busy day, but it happens"?). All in all, most of the stuff the SAG is asking for is pretty reasonable. I would even be down with the leading VAs getting shares of the games' profits if it was organised reasonably, but since there's no way it's going to happen I suspect its more of a negotiation tactic and not an actual reservation point - more likely it's the first demand they'll drop during the negotiations.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 16:07:17 GMT
i.e. Flat-rated performance bonuses that kick in just when the average game finishes breaking even... which is worse than a true profit sharing program... that would at least confirm that actual profits exist first rather than just an arbitrary 2 million copies sold (which just assumes that the game, regardless of its costs, would be profitable at that point). That's one hell of a kneejerk reaction you just had there. How can it possibly be worse than profit sharing when it's a finite amount? Profit sharing would go on indefinitely. Because it kicks in before there are likely to actually be profits. It's not a knee-jerk reaction and I have explained why several times already. I have no problem with it IF they start it at a later figure... at a point in time where there are actually profits to pay it from... not at the point where the game is most likely just starting to break even and the sales the would generate a profit haven't happened yet. If a game sells 2,000,001 copies and just breaks even at that, the company should not be obligated to go into a loss position on the game to pay out "performance bonuses" to the VAs. Since people keep comparing it to COO bonuses... well, those are usually only approved by the Board of the Directors AFTER the company is shown to have been profitable for that year. No profit... no bonus.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,303
themikefest
14,831
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Oct 19, 2016 16:11:34 GMT
If the VA's have a problem with screaming some lines for a couple of days, if that's required for the game, imagine how it is for drill instructors screaming at new recruits in the military. I doubt any VA could handle that.
|
|
Adhin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 512 Likes: 523
inherit
996
0
Sept 3, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
523
Adhin
512
Aug 15, 2016 13:14:38 GMT
August 2016
adhin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Adhin on Oct 19, 2016 16:17:16 GMT
Because it kicks in before there are likely to actually be profits. It's not a knee-jerk reaction and I have explained why several times already. I have no problem with it IF they start it at a later figure... at a point in time where there are actually profits to pay it from... not at the point where the game is most likely just starting to break even and the sales the would generate a profit haven't happened yet. If a game sells 2,000,001 copies and just breaks even at that, the company should not be obligated to go into a loss position on the game to pay out "performance bonuses" to the VAs. Since people keep comparing it to COO bonuses... well, those are usually only approved by the Board of the Directors AFTER the company is shown to have been profitable for that year. No profit... no bonus. The bonus thing I agree on for sure. I think anything static is by it's existence just a bad thing. Doesn't mean the overall idea is though. It's not VA getting bonuses that's bad like you say but it being defined as a static 2 million copys sold. It's also been made public a few times game studios get company wide bonuses (or something like that) based on some criteria (destiny being the most recent and stupidest example of that). It would definitely make more sense for the idea of a bonus getting kicked into the deal when it makes sense and being based off some point required after a game starts turning a profit. Basically, I think that 2 million sold makes more sense as an example then a rule. Plus then when you have 100+ people working on a project and one dude just came in for a 4 hour sessions to do some background vocals it's crazy to think they'd be getting some bonus so it only... really makes sense for major players in the game, those 5-10 that're absurdly important to the story. edit: If the VA's have a problem with screaming some lines for a couple of days, if that's required for the game, imagine how it is for drill instructors screaming at new recruits in the military. I doubt any VA could handle that. Yeah... drill instructors also don't have to ensure there voice stays flexible or sound off/horse/fuckerd up. I'm sure plenty of them could scream for hours, they just wouldn't be able to pull off normal sounding VO for other parts. Imagine Liara just all of a sudden sounding like she has a cold, or barely capable of talking randomly in some conversation for no explainable reason.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,303
themikefest
14,831
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Oct 19, 2016 16:24:42 GMT
Imagine Liara just all of a sudden sounding like she has a cold, or barely capable of talking randomly in some conversation for no explainable reason. She would probably sound better than what is heard in the game. Of course the alternative is for her not to say anything. That would be fine with me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 16:43:14 GMT
but as far as preventing them from earning a living... I don't think that's legal... at least not here in Canada. I might have the exact name wrong but it's called a no-competition clause and is quite legal in the U.S. And while i've only read about it in software development, i wouldn't be surprised that it would apply to VO work as well. You raise an interesting point regarding game designers getting a slice of the pie. I'd really like to know myself. If the answer is no, then the VA's definitely need to shut up. That's a great sentiment. These guys are fucked so these guys overhere should be fucked as well. How about, instead, the designers get a union going. While occasionally unions aren't exceptionally helpful, more often than not, it's the only thing guaranteeing fair wage for workers. I recall someone joking about testers getting a union going. But, honestly, i don't think they were joking. Personally, i hope a deal is reached that's fair to the VO's, and if not, well, if the game's delayed, it gets delayed. The time frame mentioned could affect MEA and i'd rather the VO's get proper benefits than BioWare releasing a questionable product. Non-compete clauses generally prevent an employee from going into business themselves in direct competition with their employers. When employment has been freelance... doing the same work for others in the same industry is permissible. In Canada, if a freelancer has only one contract over a year, they can be ruled as actually being an employee of that contractor by Revenue Canada... and the company that treated them as an independent contractor can face some tax consequences for not having put that person on their payroll instead. So, if there was a non-compete clause in their contract, it would prevent a VA from going into game development on their own... it would not prevent them from accepting voice work with another company at the same time as long as the sessions did not conflict. If this were not permissible, VA's would only be allowed to have one signed contract with one company at a time... That is, they would not be able to sign a contract that starts up subsequent to an existing contract until they fully finished all the work required on the first contract. I'm pretty sure they can sign their next contract before they finish the one their working on currently. ETA: Some information I subsequently dug up on the enforceability of non-competition agreements in Canada: employmentlawottawa.com/2013/10/31/how-enforceable-are-non-competition-and-non-solicitation-agreements-in-employment-contracts/ I am getting the impression that "overly broad" non-compete causes are more likely to be unenforceable in Canada than in the US. The reason give by Papa Charlie was that the company would not want the VA to blab information... Well, a confidentiality agreement would prevent them from disclosing information to another company (whether they are working for that company as a second contract or not). Like you, I also hope that a deal is reached before Friday. I am not anti-VA... but the bottom line here is that both sides have a lot of concessions yet to make in order for that to happen. Right now, as I see it, both sides have unreasonable demands of each other on the table. I've been pointing out the VA ones because most everyone else here has been taking an anti-developer stance. Both sides are guilty of trying to make their unreasonableness seem reasonable to us and they want all of us to sympathize with their side. We're being played by "hidden" stuff in each side's proposals that really makes it impossible for them to settle. They are forcing this strike to happen... So personally I think a strike is pretty much inevitable... and, unfortunately, gamers/consumers are going to hurt because of it. The entire industry will suffer a set back that, like TV, they may not recover from for years. For me... if the result of this is games that are too high priced or too low a quality... I just won't buy them and I'll do something else with my free time... just like I stopped watching a lot of TV after the writer's strike.
|
|
Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 29,553 Likes: 104,378
inherit
ღ N-Special
151
0
104,378
Hrungr
More coffee...? More coffee.
29,553
August 2016
hrungr
Hrungr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Hrungr
18,258
65,767
|
Post by Hrungr on Oct 19, 2016 18:09:34 GMT
Because it kicks in before there are likely to actually be profits. It's not a knee-jerk reaction and I have explained why several times already. I have no problem with it IF they start it at a later figure... at a point in time where there are actually profits to pay it from... not at the point where the game is most likely just starting to break even and the sales the would generate a profit haven't happened yet. If a game sells 2,000,001 copies and just breaks even at that, the company should not be obligated to go into a loss position on the game to pay out "performance bonuses" to the VAs. Since people keep comparing it to COO bonuses... well, those are usually only approved by the Board of the Directors AFTER the company is shown to have been profitable for that year. No profit... no bonus. The bonus thing I agree on for sure. I think anything static is by it's existence just a bad thing. Doesn't mean the overall idea is though. It's not VA getting bonuses that's bad like you say but it being defined as a static 2 million copys sold. It's also been made public a few times game studios get company wide bonuses (or something like that) based on some criteria (destiny being the most recent and stupidest example of that). It would definitely make more sense for the idea of a bonus getting kicked into the deal when it makes sense and being based off some point required after a game starts turning a profit. Basically, I think that 2 million sold makes more sense as an example then a rule. Plus then when you have 100+ people working on a project and one dude just came in for a 4 hour sessions to do some background vocals it's crazy to think they'd be getting some bonus so it only... really makes sense for major players in the game, those 5-10 that're absurdly important to the story. Yeah, if there's a studio-wide bonus for job-well-done/sales, then I agree the VAs should definitely be included in that. But just trying to dictate their own bonuses based on their own metrics... no.
|
|
inherit
1817
0
8,411
Kappa Neko
...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
3,386
Oct 18, 2016 21:17:18 GMT
October 2016
kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2016 19:01:59 GMT
Some people here seem very unhappy with their own wages... Voice actors don't just cruise to a four hour job, cash in easy money and spend the rest of the week in a hammock drinking martinis while normal people work their butts off, you know. Their pay needs to cover the countless hours spent job hunting, preparing for an audition, practicing lines, maintaining their skill level and so on. Most of them probably can't live off voice acting alone for that reason, just like most other artists. With people who become really famous, it's different, of course. But even they do work. I believe many (famous) actors work up to 16 hours a day for weeks and months. They make a fortune, so they are very well compensated, I wouldn't want their lives though. In a perfect world we'd all work the same hours and make the same amount of money. A garbage man is as important as a surgeon. Nobody needs millions of dollars. Nobody. But demand and availability determine price. And usually the least important things in life are in highest demand. However, what they're demanding here isn't paying voice actors a fortune. They just want to make a decent living. What's wrong with that? The entertainment/creative industry has little job security and everyone works under a lot of pressure. I'm all for humanizing the process. I work in the video game industry as a tiny replaceable wheel in the machine. My wage is fairly low but I work way less than the creative team. Hardly any overtime. I go home at five and forget about the job. So in a sense my pay is adequate. A show or game I like might get delayed a bit by a demand for better pay? Boo-hoo! How awful... (Sorry for sounding aggressive, I'm not in the best mood. A good friend's wife has cancer.)
|
|
Robo
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Prime Posts: 420
Posts: 238 Likes: 451
inherit
144
0
May 16, 2017 21:51:13 GMT
451
Robo
238
August 2016
syn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
420
|
Post by Robo on Oct 19, 2016 19:32:18 GMT
Sounds kind of bad. Probably.
|
|