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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 20, 2016 18:32:54 GMT
Note, if you have more accurate information on their actual work hours, that'd be grand because i know it's short but not how short and would make better sense of why they're asking for so much. I was wondering about that too, so a googling I go! A cartoon/animated feature VA, not a game VA, but still sheds some light on the process -- note: She has multiple gigs going in a single week!www.awn.com/mag/issue2.12/2.12pages/2.12soucievoice.htmlArticle specifically about video game VA's role and compensation, a little light on details, but there are some interesting nuggets in there. www.polygon.com/features/2013/4/2/4104160/why-arent-video-game-actors-treated-like-starsAnother article about video game VA, also a little light, but with nuggets: motherboard.vice.com/read/video-game-voice-actors-crunch-tooOverall process of VA in the sound studio for video games: www.polygon.com/features/2014/8/27/5885067/defense-grid-2-voiceoverSAG-AFTRA video, not gaming VO, obviously spun in their favor, approach with grain of salt: www.sagaftra.org/day-life-a-voice-actor
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 19:55:34 GMT
If smaller publishers can afford their very own Wheaton prime-time, it's unlikely they'd go out of their way to make Wheaton uncomfortable or put him in poor working conditions and would, most likely, go ahead with suggestions Wheaton made. Also, unless Wheaton was feeling especially diva when dealing with said publisher, he'd likely give them some slack on fees or possibly provide some extras, somehow, as a token of generosity. Maybe it's just me but he doesn't normally come off as a dick. On the other hand, larger companies, unless dealing with someone popular like Wheaton, have no qualms getting every ounce of energy out of people, hence why unions were created in the first place. Because, if companies were so benevolent, there would be no reason for unions to exist in the first place. Regards to Wheaton, the man's obviously done very well for himself but, let's be honest, can he really live off of his residuals alone? I'm placing bets he can't. He lives in L.A. for fucks sake. The cost for an apartment in Skid Row is approximately $1700. Could you imagine how much it'd cost to live near West Hollywood or Beverly Hills? The only way you could live cheaper is if you bounced around motels for $20-50 a day, and that's no guarantee. Okay, so let's say he made $100 an hour. Most recording sessions are for, what, two weeks? Maybe a month? Assuming normal work hours, which is probably inaccurate due to the need for various breaks, that's $800 a day, which is $16,000 for all the sessions. That's it, without taxes. With taxes, which are higher as a contractor if i recall right, he might get $12,000. Besides the house and other needs, he's gotta find another job before the $12,000 runs out. He's got two kids so there's college he's gotta save for. There's also medical expenses, which he does have since he suffers from depression, if i remember right. Do you know, without coverage, a bottle of pills is like over a thousand dollars? That $12,000, which has gets no benefit from being in a corporation that gets group rates, gets smaller and smaller as the months pass. And games are taking longer to produce. Years longer in fact and the amount of VO any common game's going to have will be fairly minimal when compared to a BioWare game. And to think i'm probably over-blowing the amount of money they'd receive, because honestly, on most games, i doubt they're working for more than a week. Note, if you have more accurate information on their actual work hours, that'd be grand because i know it's short but not how short and would make better sense of why they're asking for so much. I just love how you're now trying to spin my response to be specifically about Wheaton... when you know very well the point I was countering was your implication that basically all publishers were "rolling in ii." Some are, some aren't... just the same as some VAs are not rolling in it, but some are. Wheaton, I'm sure makes much, much more than $100/hour for a VO session because he can negotiate a much higher rate with the publishers who can afford to hire such a noted name. The union is negotiating "minimum scale" - meaning $100/hour is the lowest amount a company can currently pay a union VA to work for them... so even the newest of unknown noobs makes $100/hour minimum if they belong to the union. If they have made a "name' for themselves, they can certainly negotiate any higher rate that the developer who wants them is willing to pay. For Wheaton... I'm quite sure it's a much, much higher rate than $100/hour. I never said or implied that he was a dick... but I certainly don't feel "pity" for him. Should I feel "pity" for him if his residuals alone don't pay for an apartment in West Hollywood? (I can't believe you're actually going into this - the guy makes MILLIONS per year. Residuals are money still coming in for work he did 20+ years ago... wanna know how much I'm getting for the work I did 20 years ago - $0). I don't feel "pity" for any VA either... At minimum they make $100/hour for every hour they work. If they can't find enough work to keep them in groceries doing that job, they have then the time to do something else that pays them. That's no different than being any freelancer and any profession. How many hours in a year a freelancer works and, hence, their gross income is, in part, up to them. They are not full-time employees and are not, therefore, have no annual salary or guaranteed benefits, etc. If they want to incorporate themselves as a professional corporation, they probably can. They would have to speak to a tax accountant to determine if it's in their own best interest to do so. There are insurance companies who do offer benefit plans (including health) to small business corporations. Do you somehow think that a larger corporation that provides a health plan to their employees is not paying an insurance company premiums for that plan? I virtually guarantee that they are. (ETA: Have been doing some additional reading - SAG-AFTRA has a compulsory Pension and Health Benefits plan for it's members that it requires the developers to pay contributions into as part of the agreement that the developers must sign with SAG-AFTRA before being able to hire any union VA's... so, any union VA would be covered by this plan.) Taxes are not arbitrarily higher for a "contractor" in Canada. Personal income tax brackets are based on just that, income. A corporation pays a corporate taxes rate... which for many businesses is much lower than personal income taxes. The specific rules are complex and penalties can happen if they are not applied correctly... but simply being a "contractor" rather than an employee does not, in Canada, subject the person to higher personal income taxes.
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Monk
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Post by Monk on Oct 20, 2016 21:04:17 GMT
Note, if you have more accurate information on their actual work hours, that'd be grand because i know it's short but not how short and would make better sense of why they're asking for so much. I was wondering about that too, so a googling I go! I've gone through the articles but, overall, there's very little detail. It seems for the most part, if you do well, you end up landing multiple gigs and get paid so much for how many hours of recording you do. Numbers wise, i think the first Polygon and Vice articles were the most informative and makes me wonder what Troy Baker thinks of the strike. Based on what he was saying, there might not be too much the union can ask more of, except maybe more breaks and possibly limiting the amount of total hours at a time an actor can do (basing this somewhat on why Steve Blum left a job because they wanted him to work too much). If smaller publishers can afford their very own Wheaton prime-time, it's unlikely they'd go out of their way to make Wheaton uncomfortable or put him in poor working conditions and would, most likely, go ahead with suggestions Wheaton made. Also, unless Wheaton was feeling especially diva when dealing with said publisher, he'd likely give them some slack on fees or possibly provide some extras, somehow, as a token of generosity. Maybe it's just me but he doesn't normally come off as a dick. On the other hand, larger companies, unless dealing with someone popular like Wheaton, have no qualms getting every ounce of energy out of people, hence why unions were created in the first place. Because, if companies were so benevolent, there would be no reason for unions to exist in the first place. Regards to Wheaton, the man's obviously done very well for himself but, let's be honest, can he really live off of his residuals alone? I'm placing bets he can't. He lives in L.A. for fucks sake. The cost for an apartment in Skid Row is approximately $1700. Could you imagine how much it'd cost to live near West Hollywood or Beverly Hills? The only way you could live cheaper is if you bounced around motels for $20-50 a day, and that's no guarantee. Okay, so let's say he made $100 an hour. Most recording sessions are for, what, two weeks? Maybe a month? Assuming normal work hours, which is probably inaccurate due to the need for various breaks, that's $800 a day, which is $16,000 for all the sessions. That's it, without taxes. With taxes, which are higher as a contractor if i recall right, he might get $12,000. Besides the house and other needs, he's gotta find another job before the $12,000 runs out. He's got two kids so there's college he's gotta save for. There's also medical expenses, which he does have since he suffers from depression, if i remember right. Do you know, without coverage, a bottle of pills is like over a thousand dollars? That $12,000, which has gets no benefit from being in a corporation that gets group rates, gets smaller and smaller as the months pass. And games are taking longer to produce. Years longer in fact and the amount of VO any common game's going to have will be fairly minimal when compared to a BioWare game. And to think i'm probably over-blowing the amount of money they'd receive, because honestly, on most games, i doubt they're working for more than a week. Note, if you have more accurate information on their actual work hours, that'd be grand because i know it's short but not how short and would make better sense of why they're asking for so much. I just love how you're now trying to spin my response to be specifically about Wheaton... when you know very well the point I was countering was your implication that basically all publishers were "rolling in ii." Some are, some aren't... just the same as some VAs are not rolling in it, but some are. Wheaton, I'm sure makes much, much more than $100/hour for a VO session because he can negotiate a much higher rate with the publishers who can afford to hire such a noted name. The union is negotiating "minimum scale" - meaning $100/hour is the lowest amount a company can currently pay a union VA to work for them... so even the newest of unknown noobs makes $100/hour minimum if they belong to the union. If they have made a "name' for themselves, they can certainly negotiate any higher rate that the developer who wants them is willing to pay. For Wheaton... I'm quite sure it's a much, much higher rate than $100/hour. I never said or implied that he was a dick... but I certainly don't feel "pity" for him. I don't feel "pity" for any VA... At minimum they make $100/hour for every hour they work. If they can't find enough work to keep them in groceries doing that job, they have then the time to do something else that pays them. That's no different than being any freelancer and any profession... You spend a bunch of unpaid time finding paying work... if there is currently not enough work in your freelance field, then you hunt up other work to just keep paying the bills... sometimes it's flipping burgers for $11/hour (been there, done that). How many hours in a year a freelancer works and, hence, their gross income is, in part, up to them. They are not full-time employees and are not, therefore, have no annual salary or guaranteed benefits, etc. If they want to incorporate themselves as a professional corporation, they probably can. There are insurance companies who do offer benefit plans (including health) to small business corporations. Do you somehow think that a larger corporation that provides a health plan to their employees is not paying an insurance company premiums for that plan? I virtually guarantee that they are. Taxes are not arbitrarily higher for a "contractor" in Canada. Personal income tax brackets are based on just that, income. A corporation pays a corporate taxes rate... which for many businesses is much lower than personal income taxes. The specific rules are complex and penalties can happen if they are not applied correctly... but simply being a "contractor" rather than an employee does not, in Canada, subject the person to higher personal income taxes. I actually wasn't trying to spin using Wheaton. I was trying to use him as an example to make it understandable why they need the cash the union's requesting. Regards to tax rates, i'm going by what freelancers i follow in the U.S. have exclaimed when it comes to income taxes. The numbers are probably off as i was only "taxing" in the example at about 35%, though i believe it's actually higher for contractors, though, they can write virtually everything off that's remotely related to what they do to help bring that down. Overall now, i'm thinking people like Wheaton are more of an outlier because he's been on T.V. and is recognizeable, where as people like Baker or Jennifer Hale aren't so much. What this would mean is compensation-wise he might be able to request more but at the cost of having to do things such as T.V. appearances to promote the game, which would justify the extra clot his name has.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 21:19:05 GMT
I was wondering about that too, so a googling I go! I've gone through the articles but, overall, there's very little detail. It seems for the most part, if you do well, you end up landing multiple gigs and get paid so much for how many hours of recording you do. Numbers wise, i think the first Polygon and Vice articles were the most informative and makes me wonder what Troy Baker thinks of the strike. Based on what he was saying, there might not be too much the union can ask more of, except maybe more breaks and possibly limiting the amount of total hours at a time an actor can do (basing this somewhat on why Steve Blum left a job because they wanted him to work too much). I just love how you're now trying to spin my response to be specifically about Wheaton... when you know very well the point I was countering was your implication that basically all publishers were "rolling in ii." Some are, some aren't... just the same as some VAs are not rolling in it, but some are. Wheaton, I'm sure makes much, much more than $100/hour for a VO session because he can negotiate a much higher rate with the publishers who can afford to hire such a noted name. The union is negotiating "minimum scale" - meaning $100/hour is the lowest amount a company can currently pay a union VA to work for them... so even the newest of unknown noobs makes $100/hour minimum if they belong to the union. If they have made a "name' for themselves, they can certainly negotiate any higher rate that the developer who wants them is willing to pay. For Wheaton... I'm quite sure it's a much, much higher rate than $100/hour. I never said or implied that he was a dick... but I certainly don't feel "pity" for him. I don't feel "pity" for any VA... At minimum they make $100/hour for every hour they work. If they can't find enough work to keep them in groceries doing that job, they have then the time to do something else that pays them. That's no different than being any freelancer and any profession... You spend a bunch of unpaid time finding paying work... if there is currently not enough work in your freelance field, then you hunt up other work to just keep paying the bills... sometimes it's flipping burgers for $11/hour (been there, done that). How many hours in a year a freelancer works and, hence, their gross income is, in part, up to them. They are not full-time employees and are not, therefore, have no annual salary or guaranteed benefits, etc. If they want to incorporate themselves as a professional corporation, they probably can. There are insurance companies who do offer benefit plans (including health) to small business corporations. Do you somehow think that a larger corporation that provides a health plan to their employees is not paying an insurance company premiums for that plan? I virtually guarantee that they are. Taxes are not arbitrarily higher for a "contractor" in Canada. Personal income tax brackets are based on just that, income. A corporation pays a corporate taxes rate... which for many businesses is much lower than personal income taxes. The specific rules are complex and penalties can happen if they are not applied correctly... but simply being a "contractor" rather than an employee does not, in Canada, subject the person to higher personal income taxes. I actually wasn't trying to spin using Wheaton. I was trying to use him as an example to make it understandable why they need the cash the union's requesting. Regards to tax rates, i'm going by what freelancers i follow in the U.S. have exclaimed when it comes to income taxes. The numbers are probably off as i was only "taxing" in the example at about 35%, though i believe it's actually higher for contractors, though, they can write virtually everything off that's remotely related to what they do to help bring that down. Overall now, i'm thinking people like Wheaton are more of an outlier because he's been on T.V. and is recognizeable, where as people like Baker or Jennifer Hale aren't so much. What this would mean is compensation-wise he might be able to request more but at the cost of having to do things such as T.V. appearances to promote the game, which would justify the extra clot his name has. So, you're basically admitting that even in the US, contractors don't pay more in taxes than employees because they can write things off against the higher rate. The union figure IS minimum scale. Any VA is free to negotiate a higher rate if they can. That's between them and the developer. The developer cannot pay a union VA less than $100/hour. VA's who don't belong to the union can probably undercut the uniotn VAs and charge less than $100/hour (but they are probably "ostracized" by the union members if they do that). Companies who want to hire union VA's must first sign an agreement with the union itself that allows them to hire union VA's. I'm not sure if a developer who has signed that SAG-AFTRA contract, however, is still able to hire non-union VA's... or if part of the agreement is a commitment to hire only union VA's (I suspect it is the latter). (ETA: I've been reading through an old agreement that the developers would have to sign with SAF-AFTRA before hiring union VA's. It seems that the terms prevent them from hiring any "performer" at less that union scale and the definition of a "performer" in the agreement is not limited to those who belong to the union. SAG-AFTRA does have old samples of their agreements available for download on their website.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 21:20:29 GMT
Regards to tax rates, i'm going by what freelancers i follow in the U.S. have exclaimed when it comes to income taxes. The numbers are probably off as i was only "taxing" in the example at about 35%, though i believe it's actually higher for contractors, though, they can write virtually everything off that's remotely related to what they do to help bring that down. If their tax rate is 35% ... even if combining state and federal for a combined tax rate ... then they are doing GREAT.
If "just" talking federal being 35%, then this is the tax bracket that leads to a 35% "marginal" tax rate ... for single $413K - $415K; for married $413K - $467K (I've rounded it).
Let's say their state tax is 7% ... subtract that so their Fed tax marginal rate is 28% ... for single $91K - $191K; for married $152K - $251K (again, rounded)
If they are talking their effective taxes paid are at the 35% rate ... then they are making a boatload of money, because marginal tax rate only applies to the money made above the minimum for that bracket, so the effective tax rate is much, much lower.
Source: IRS
Edit add: An example of effective tax rate ... for 2015, President Obama's combined income was $436K (President's salary + other income), the effective Fed tax rate was 14.7%.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 21:30:08 GMT
Regards to tax rates, i'm going by what freelancers i follow in the U.S. have exclaimed when it comes to income taxes. The numbers are probably off as i was only "taxing" in the example at about 35%, though i believe it's actually higher for contractors, though, they can write virtually everything off that's remotely related to what they do to help bring that down. If their tax rate is 35% ... even if combining state and federal for a combined tax rate ... then they are doing GREAT.
If "just" talking federal, then this is the tax bracket that leads to a 35% "marginal" tax rate ... $413K - $415K for single; $413K - $467K if married (I've rounded it).
Let's say their state tax is 7% ... subtract that so their Fed tax marginal rate is 28% ... $91K - $191K; $152 - $251K if married (again, rounded)
If they are talking their effective taxes paid are at the 35% rate ... then they are making a boatload of money, because marginal tax rate only applies to the money made above the minimum for that bracket, so the effective tax rate is much, much lower.
Source: IRS That makes much more sense.
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Monk
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Post by Monk on Oct 20, 2016 22:47:30 GMT
I was going by paycheck deductions, not federal-only deductions. You have SSI, medical (if it's taken from the check) and a couple others which come out. For me – can't be exact because IRS' site's super slow where i'm at – my fed was maybe 20%? But with all the other deductions, it came out to about 35% total deductions, which is at only about 50K a year in California.
Regards to the itemized deductions, you literally have to save up in order to be ready for tax day because no one's doing the deductions and these will come back to haunt you otherwise. And from what i've read about tax day, it's painstaking process. Oh, and the deductions, they don't save much otherwise the basic form - the 1040EZ - would have deductions as well. It's not a "quick money scheme", deductions. What you get back from them is piecemeal. The reason large corporations do charities isn't because of the deductions, it's the free advertising they can put on their website or add whenever the company is profiled.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 23:07:39 GMT
I was going by paycheck deductions, not federal-only deductions. You have SSI, medical (if it's taken from the check) and a couple others which come out. For me – can't be exact because IRS' site's super slow where i'm at – my fed was maybe 20%? But with all the other deductions, it came out to about 35% total deductions, which is at only about 50K a year in California. Regards to the itemized deductions, you literally have to save up in order to be ready for tax day because no one's doing the deductions and these will come back to haunt you otherwise. And from what i've read about tax day, it's painstaking process. Oh, and the deductions, they don't save much otherwise the basic form - the 1040EZ - would have deductions as well. It's not a "quick money scheme", deductions. What you get back from them is piecemeal. The reason large corporations do charities isn't because of the deductions, it's the free advertising they can put on their website or add whenever the company is profiled. SS: 6.2% and Medicare: 1.45%
If you are making $50K a year, your effective tax rate, even with SS and Medicare, plus CA state tax is not 35% ... worst case, it's under 23%. I think you are conflating marginal tax rate with effective tax. If you are including other things, besides taxes ... such as heath care, 401K, other withholdings from your pay ... those are savings and expenses, not taxes.
Running the numbers, assuming standard deduction, no kids, just personal exemptions, no other tax write offs, effective tax rate of 35% (Fed + State + SS + Medicare) ...
For a VA who is single, living in CA ... the VA would have to make more than $142K per year, in the worst case scenario (tax wise) to hit 35%.
For a VA who is married, filing jointly, living in CA ... the VA + spouse would have to make more than $330K combined, in the worst case scenario (tax wise) to hit 35%. If you find you are ending up with a big tax bill at the end of the year, you can withhold additional funds. I'm single. No dependents. The only deductions I get are for state income taxes and property taxes, plus my personal exemption. On my W-4, I put single, no deductions, plus an additional sum for my Federal taxes. It avoids big tax bills come Apr. My goal is to not have to pay any additional taxes and get the smallest return possible. I don't want to pay penalties but I don't want the IRS holding money that I will get back as a refund.
Might want to check out how many deductions your employer is applying to you. They have no vested interest in under-withholding ... it may be that when you were hired, a default number of exemptions was applied, that is not appropriate in your case.
I don't work for Intuit, but TurboTax ... for folks like me and frankly, most people ... makes tax day pretty painless. There are others out there, so most reputable tax software will serve you well. Because filling out forms by hand is a giant pain.
This is getting WAY off topic, so I'll shut up.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Oct 20, 2016 23:35:53 GMT
Whether or not it's going to affect Andromeda I hope both sides walk away from the deal content. There are other games/shows/movies a strike would hurt, not to mention it's not great for the VA themselves.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 21, 2016 0:14:54 GMT
I was wondering about that too, so a googling I go! I've gone through the articles but, overall, there's very little detail. It seems for the most part, if you do well, you end up landing multiple gigs and get paid so much for how many hours of recording you do. Numbers wise, i think the first Polygon and Vice articles were the most informative and makes me wonder what Troy Baker thinks of the strike. Based on what he was saying, there might not be too much the union can ask more of, except maybe more breaks and possibly limiting the amount of total hours at a time an actor can do (basing this somewhat on why Steve Blum left a job because they wanted him to work too much). Yeah, a bit light on details, but here are a few nuggets I came away with: - Big names, like the Martin Sheen's, bust budgets and take gigs away for the experienced VA-only folks. For no appreciable value other than the Jimmy Kimmel spot/late night promos.
- Video game VA is on another level from all other VA gigs, both in terms of strain on the actor as well as weird shit like so much secrecy they aren't told what they are working on.
- VA's don't get a script or even a written precis ahead of time. It's show up, a minute or two of "Who is this character? What's their arc? Why are they here?" and then it's into the booth. Veterans like Jen Hale can nail it in one, but imagine everyone else trying to do a good job with so little background.
- I like the analogy to taking a movie script, slicing it up into individual lines, tossing them up into the air, grabbing one, and then "Read this!"
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fade9wayz
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Post by fade9wayz on Oct 21, 2016 6:31:11 GMT
Uh, for the sake of performance continuity? Voice acting in itself is challenging if you have little to no context of what your character is doing, and not every actor in every video game project has the same luxury of watching an animated scene to know what is physically going on in the scene they are recording. Doing double-duty with the performance capture actually helps sell the acting instead of two disembodied actors (one physical actor and one voice actor) being the same character. Some actors may want to do stunt fighting of their own volition as something fun to do in the same way we liked to play pretend cops and robbers as kids. Not every actor is going to be Jackie Chan in the stunt department, sure, but who wouldn't want to try it out? No, no. It is part of the job description for VAs to work without visual prompts and they don't work in complete dark. In animated work, either movies or series, voices are recorded long before the animation even starts. First, the director and productor need them for a better estimate when timing the movie. Second, animators will need them to time their anims correctly, know how to animate their characters (well, proper direction in animation helps too), and finally, animators need them for lip-sync. Contrary to what you see when famous actors promote a movie, the animation follows the voice, not the other way around. They don't have any fancy animated scenes when they record, and they certainly don't do stunts either. They are talented that way. A good VA can sound awesomly badass without having ever thrown a punch in their life, or even looking the part (actors who specialise in voice acting are not required to maintain their body the way other actors need to if they hope landing a job). Context is provided by the director, or whomever is in charge. If they don't give proper context, or select an inadequate tone among the severals that were undoubtly recorded, then it's the director's fault. Obviously, AAA games make much more use of mocap than traditionally animated movies. Mocap studios charge like crazy the use of their facilities, so game companies will want to reduce mocap time to the minimum. They often can buy 'packs' of basic animations already existing (walking, running, jumping, climbing...). That way, they only need to mocap whatever special movements are required for that particular game (jetpacks, body thrown by an explosion...), but those can be performed by stunt professionals. There's no need for any VA to perform them. Besides, proper stunts require quite a bit of gear and expertise that stunt professionals can provide, unlike VAs. It's just more efficient and cost-effective to hire stunt professionals for this kind of mocap. A cc fight scene needs to be carefully choregraphed, there's no room for improvisation there, again, not an expertise that a regular VA with little to no experience in combat can offer. . They are just going to waste time, therefore money, in the mocap facility. Not using stunt professionals for such specialised scenes is not only dangerous, but financially dumb. Now, they might want to mocap emotionally charged scenes too, and then there is sense in hiring an actual actor, but those are hardly dangerous. When it comes to famous actors, they can not only demand wages that are far, far above those 100 $, but also copyrights (rights of use of their image), and if they agree to doing stunts, you'll have to consider insurances (if no one else, they will demand that a stunt professional is present). In short, this won't be cheap. As for less prestigious actors (I understand insurances are not mandatory in North America?), they were either hired knowing full well they would do mocap and stunts, and therefore were paid a wage they agreed on for such work, or were duped/coerced by the game company into doing mocap they didn't agree on while only being paid for the work of a regular, normal, VA. In the first case, they agreed. So they don't really have a leg to stand on for complains, and in the second, I'd think it's ground for a lawsuite, no? By the way, actors who do mocap can't touch each other. Ever. Otherwise the signal of their respective captors get mixed up. So, they can't grab each other, or even fake hitting each other at very close range. The only way they can be hurt in such a 'fight' scene is by tripping over their own feet or by pulling a muscle... Do VAs deserve better work conditions and recognition? Yes, definitely, but don't forget that both sides are pushing their own agenda, which is fair enough, but everything that is relayed to the general public should be taken with great caution. Undermining the opponent's position is an age-old tactic
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 8:13:41 GMT
Uh, for the sake of performance continuity? Voice acting in itself is challenging if you have little to no context of what your character is doing, and not every actor in every video game project has the same luxury of watching an animated scene to know what is physically going on in the scene they are recording. Doing double-duty with the performance capture actually helps sell the acting instead of two disembodied actors (one physical actor and one voice actor) being the same character. Some actors may want to do stunt fighting of their own volition as something fun to do in the same way we liked to play pretend cops and robbers as kids. Not every actor is going to be Jackie Chan in the stunt department, sure, but who wouldn't want to try it out? No, no. It is part of the job description for VAs to work without visual prompts and they don't work in complete dark. In animated work, either movies or series, voices are recorded long before the animation even starts. First, the director and productor need them for a better estimate when timing the movie. Second, animators will need them to time their anims correctly, know how to animate their characters (well, proper direction in animation helps too), and finally, animators need them for lip-sync. Contrary to what you see when famous actors promote a movie, the animation follows the voice, not the other way around. They don't have any fancy animated scenes when they record, and they certainly don't do stunts either. They are talented that way. A good VA can sound awesomly badass without having ever thrown a punch in their life, or even looking the part (actors who specialise in voice acting are not required to maintain their body the way other actors need to if they hope landing a job). Context is provided by the director, or whomever is in charge. If they don't give proper context, or select an inadequate tone among the severals that were undoubtly recorded, then it's the director's fault. Obviously, AAA games make much more use of mocap than traditionally animated movies. Mocap studios charge like crazy the use of their facilities, so game companies will want to reduce mocap time to the minimum. They often can buy 'packs' of basic animations already existing (walking, running, jumping, climbing...). That way, they only need to mocap whatever special movements are required for that particular game (jetpacks, body thrown by an explosion...), but those can be performed by stunt professionals. There's no need for any VA to perform them. Besides, proper stunts require quite a bit of gear and expertise that stunt professionals can provide, unlike VAs. It's just more efficient and cost-effective to hire stunt professionals for this kind of mocap. A cc fight scene needs to be carefully choregraphed, there's no room for improvisation there, again, not an expertise that a regular VA with little to no experience in combat can offer. . They are just going to waste time, therefore money, in the mocap facility. Not using stunt professionals for such specialised scenes is not only dangerous, but financially dumb. Now, they might want to mocap emotionally charged scenes too, and then there is sense in hiring an actual actor, but those are hardly dangerous. When it comes to famous actors, they can not only demand wages that are far, far above those 100 $, but also copyrights (rights of use of their image), and if they agree to doing stunts, you'll have to consider insurances (if no one else, they will demand that a stunt professional is present). In short, this won't be cheap. As for less prestigious actors (I understand insurances are not mandatory in North America?), they were either hired knowing full well they would do mocap and stunts, and therefore were paid a wage they agreed on for such work, or were duped/coerced by the game company into doing mocap they didn't agree on while only being paid for the work of a regular, normal, VA. In the first case, they agreed. So they don't really have a leg to stand on for complains, and in the second, I'd think it's ground for a lawsuite, no? By the way, actors who do mocap can't touch each other. Ever. Otherwise the signal of their respective captors get mixed up. So, they can't grab each other, or even fake hitting each other at very close range. The only way they can be hurt in such a 'fight' scene is by tripping over their own feet or by pulling a muscle... Do VAs deserve better work conditions and recognition? Yes, definitely, but don't forget that both sides are pushing their own agenda, which is fair enough, but everything that is relayed to the general public should be taken with great caution. Undermining the opponent's position is an age-old tactic Uh, there are some exceptions to the rule since SOME video game projects might want to go the opposite direction, depending on the project director's desires. As an example, Metal Gear Solid 4 gave the American voice actors the opportunity to watch the animated cutscenes while recording their scenes since the Japanese already filmed those cutscenes and had their Japanese voice actors finish recording. English dubs for Japanese-centric anime is a similar story with how the process works (if the studio doesn't show the Japanese footage for whatever reason for dubbing anime, the actors at least watch the subtitled versions for the full context of the scene as homework). Not every project will have the same process since every project director does things differently. What your last post is implying is that there is a "one size fits all" process for video game and animated voice-overs, which isn't always the case 100%. As far as mocapping action scenes go, it's a case-by-case basis, and I am aware that stunt-people are used for the more complicated moves like martial arts fights. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the actors themselves are required to sit out on those sessions. As I mentioned in my last post, if they want to hop in on the fake fighting, more power to them, since at least some of those VAs have had theatrical or film education at some point, or took a martial arts class or two in their lifetime.
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Post by helios969 on Oct 21, 2016 9:15:56 GMT
Yeah, a bit light on details, but here are a few nuggets I came away with: - Big names, like the Martin Sheen's, bust budgets and take gigs away for the experienced VA-only folks. For no appreciable value other than the Jimmy Kimmel spot/late night promos.
- Video game VA is on another level from all other VA gigs, both in terms of strain on the actor as well as weird shit like so much secrecy they aren't told what they are working on.
- VA's don't get a script or even a written precis ahead of time. It's show up, a minute or two of "Who is this character? What's their arc? Why are they here?" and then it's into the booth. Veterans like Jen Hale can nail it in one, but imagine everyone else trying to do a good job with so little background.
- I like the analogy to taking a movie script, slicing it up into individual lines, tossing them up into the air, grabbing one, and then "Read this!"
I tend to agree with you on your first bullet, but man did he do an awesome job...(not that a VA-only people couldn't have). On bullet #3: That's what it means to be a professional. I, and I'm sure many others, have to perform jobs on a moments notice with no background, little context, and get it right under ridiculous time constraints. If you're truly a professional you find a way, if not, then you're just playing at being a professional. At the end of the day no one made them become voice actors. They probably had many opportunities to find more conventional employment along the way that provided a more stable income with benefits. That said, if they can pressure the big companies into getting what they want, more power to them. People tend get paid what the market is willing to pay. I definitely will not lose sleep if they have to continue to work under such "harsh" conditions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 11:33:50 GMT
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Post by Adhin on Oct 21, 2016 12:04:53 GMT
Looking over that list, and pretty sure Fifa 17 is already out. Also ehh, CoD 4? Bit late on that one guys, that's been out for like 10 years now. lol
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 12:07:58 GMT
Looking over that list, and pretty sure Fifa 17 is already out. Also ehh, CoD 4? Bit late on that one guys, that's been out for like 10 years now. lol Yeah, I wondered about that... maybe there's still DLC in the works for Fifa 17 and CoD4?
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Post by Hrungr on Oct 21, 2016 14:54:54 GMT
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Post by Adhin on Oct 21, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
Yeah, I wondered about that... maybe there's still DLC in the works for Fifa 17 and CoD4? Fifa, maybe? I don't know if sports games that come out every year actually get DLC. I know they all go off some microtransactions to speed in game stuff along which results in buko monehs. As an 'wtf' from the recent 'just went on strike' information at gamestop. Apparently that whole 'at 2 million 1 payment' blah blah was turned into - and this is absolutely bullshit if you ask me - payments every 500k units sold up to 4 payments. Meaning ANY 'AAA' game would do that immediately with in the first week. On top of that vast majority of those games aren't even breaking even at the 2m sold mark lol. They said that is only towards the trip-A titles as well so indies and games with less A's associated with em wouldn't have to worry about that. Vermintide, which is in my mind since it just hit consoles (yay) only sold about 500k on PC after a YEAR. I'm pretty sure releasing on console did, or could have tripled that in a month but that still wouldn't be the 2m mark. As an aside - that game has no freakin' marketting. I didn't learn it was hitting consoles till 2 days before release when the stealth beta hit a week prior lol. Anyway yeah, they took what seemed like an unrealistic proposal that was a good idea in principle but was using bad/concrete values and made it somehow way more 'wtf'. Seriously, Destiny - a new IP - had over 2M pre-orders and it needed way more then that to break even. It did, 100%, and I think VO's should get compensation after a games release for stuff that sells successful but holy shit. edit: forgot the quote
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Post by fade9wayz on Oct 21, 2016 15:17:14 GMT
Uh, there are some exceptions to the rule since SOME video game projects might want to go the opposite direction, depending on the project director's desires. As an example, Metal Gear Solid 4 gave the American voice actors the opportunity to watch the animated cutscenes while recording their scenes since the Japanese already filmed those cutscenes and had their Japanese voice actors finish recording. English dubs for Japanese-centric anime is a similar story with how the process works (if the studio doesn't show the Japanese footage for whatever reason for dubbing anime, the actors at least watch the subtitled versions for the full context of the scene as homework). Not every project will have the same process since every project director does things differently. What your last post is implying is that there is a "one size fits all" process for video game and animated voice-overs, which isn't always the case 100%. As far as mocapping action scenes go, it's a case-by-case basis, and I am aware that stunt-people are used for the more complicated moves like martial arts fights. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the actors themselves are required to sit out on those sessions. As I mentioned in my last post, if they want to hop in on the fake fighting, more power to them, since at least some of those VAs have had theatrical or film education at some point, or took a martial arts class or two in their lifetime. You're mixing things up. Yes, the foreign versions are recorded after the animation is done. However, all the animation, including the lip-sync are done after the original voices records. The original voice acting is the one that counts for the making of the movie, series or video game process. I thought it was quite obvious I was talking about original voices... And yes, the process I have described is the one that is used pretty much every time in animation, unless there's no need for dialogues. Why? Because it's the one that gives the most freedom and control to the director, and is the most cost-effective. When you record after the animation is done, it means the animators will need to come back on the scenes to do or correct facial expressions according to the voice. Either the director will have to settle for an interpretation that will fit the animation done, but might not be the best. Or they can go for the best interpretation that might mean changes in animation. Twice the work, twice the costs. And animation is very expensive and long, and usually, directors are also required to stay within budget. There's a real loss of control for the director here, not to mention loss of interpretation freedom for the original VA. I don't know if you've ever met an anim director, but most of them are control freaks. Of course mocapping action scenes is a case by case basis. What I'm saying is that mocap or stunts from the VA aren't at all necessary to ensure good quality voice acting, not that actors necessarily have to sit out on mocap. This isn't the same thing at all. If their participation in a mocap session is deemed absolutely essential, and the VA agrees to it, then by all means, they are free to do so. However, this is going way beyond simple voice acting and straight into actual acting, and were likely remunerated accordingly. Complaining about doing mocap and stunts after agreeing to them isn't exactly a valid position to hold, or they have to prove they were deceived into doing work they were not contracted for (which really shouldn't be too hard, if it is indeed the case).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 21, 2016 15:49:19 GMT
Looking over that list, and pretty sure Fifa 17 is already out. Also ehh, CoD 4? Bit late on that one guys, that's been out for like 10 years now. lol Yeah, I wondered about that... maybe there's still DLC in the works for Fifa 17 and CoD4? Or could be remakes/remasters. There's kind of a retro trend going on.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 21, 2016 15:50:03 GMT
I wonder if one of those EA code names is Secret IP? Scorpion maybe? Or Nut?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 15:52:42 GMT
I wonder if one of those EA code names is Secret IP? Scorpion maybe? Or Nut? Hard to know for sure; buy yeah, I wondered that as well.
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Post by Adhin on Oct 21, 2016 15:57:30 GMT
Yeah, I wondered about that... maybe there's still DLC in the works for Fifa 17 and CoD4? Or could be remakes/remasters. There's kind of a retro trend going on. Well FIFA 17 came out last week, CoD 4 came out 10 years ago and they've remastered it (not remade it) as a forced-tie in with Infinite Warfare. That shouldn't require any VO work though sine your re-using the existing VO. I have a feeling they just got included because of when they got started. FIFA 17 would of made sense IF it was anything else besides a sports game, cause they'd still have a year or 2 to go to release. I have a feeling they just looked at a list and that was that, may not even be games that involve VA.
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Post by LFS on Oct 21, 2016 16:16:06 GMT
I wonder if one of those EA code names is Secret IP? Scorpion maybe? Or Nut? Maybe Hrungr's Rice Pets joke was more on the money than we realise!
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Post by felipejiraya on Oct 21, 2016 17:29:51 GMT
This will be interesting to follow since it could affect many games that are in late development like ME:A.
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