Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 4, 2019 15:50:11 GMT
I remember an interview with Mike Laidlaw a couple years back when he was asked a similar question. He pointed out that it largely doesn't matter how long a sequel takes to make (as long as it's good). Success won't be based on the time between releases. Relevance is important. The new Terminator movie, for example, seems well liked by audience and critics, but tanked in the box office, exactly because it is no longer relevant. Striking when the iron is hot and all that. It's going to be nearly a decade since DA:I, which is the, so far, last Bioware game to have received a positive reception, upon release. Bouncing back is going to be difficult. I can't see myself waiting till 2023 for Dread Wolf, to be honest and 2027 for "Andromeda 2", but that's just me and as such it while it won't apply to everyone, you also have to account for how many will give up before me. And I've been with Bioware since 1998, so I've got some mileage and reliability. Honestly, I think people are just burnt out on the Terminator franchise after so many poor follow-ups, and an aging cast. In gaming, Fallout 3 launched 10 years after Fallout 2, Fallout 4 was 7 years after 3, Skyrim was 5.5 years after Oblivion, ES VI will be who knows how long after Skyrim, Diablo 3 came 12 years after D2, etc., etc..
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 4, 2019 15:58:36 GMT
I remember an interview with Mike Laidlaw a couple years back when he was asked a similar question. He pointed out that it largely doesn't matter how long a sequel takes to make (as long as it's good). Success won't be based on the time between releases. Relevance is important. The new Terminator movie, for example, seems well liked by audience and critics, but tanked in the box office, exactly because it is no longer relevant. Striking when the iron is hot and all that. It's going to be nearly a decade since DA:I, which is the, so far, last Bioware game to have received a positive reception, upon release. Bouncing back is going to be difficult. I can't see myself waiting till 2023 for Dread Wolf, to be honest and 2027 for "Andromeda 2", but that's just me and as such it while it won't apply to everyone, you also have to account for how many will give up before me. And I've been with Bioware since 1998, so I've got some mileage and reliability. Its odd, I have seen a different reaction to Dark Fate. Its been getting a pretty much "meh" response from the critics I follow and my friends that saw it last weekend. The feelings I get from it is that its a serviceable movie that feels like it takes a lot from all the prior movies and at the same time is a far distance away from T1 and T2, but better then the other sequels which from my experience wasn't a high bar to cross. The other difference between something like Dark Fate and a BioWare game is at least for me there are going to be plenty of other action movies released with special effects over the next few years with what is now a generic plot, but BioWare still for me is fairly unique in what they release.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 16:11:31 GMT
Franchises aren’t as limited to existing fans as we sometimes imagine them to be. I’ve played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and have yet to play any of the earlier Shadowrun games. There are plenty of folks who got into Dragon Age from DA2 or Inquisition. Something in the marketing or reviews grabbed them that didn’t grab them for DA:O. You assume these people were around for gaming when DA:O was released. Some people grow into gaming, even within a year or two. Even so, DA2 enjoyed more sales on release, but less sales overall than DA:O in a 2 month period. IMO, this is one of the big strengths of having games set in a universe, rather than following one individual person. I think where franchises have to worry about lost relevance is when they go too inside-baseball for their existing fans, leaving no hooks for newcomers. You also have to account for the fact that Dread Wolf will be a direct sequel to Inquisition. So we are going in this title with baggage from a previous title.
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Post by biggydx on Nov 4, 2019 16:14:27 GMT
Relevance is important. The new Terminator movie, for example, seems well liked by audience and critics, but tanked in the box office, exactly because it is no longer relevant. Striking when the iron is hot and all that. It's going to be nearly a decade since DA:I, which is the, so far, last Bioware game to have received a positive reception, upon release. Bouncing back is going to be difficult. I can't see myself waiting till 2023 for Dread Wolf, to be honest and 2027 for "Andromeda 2", but that's just me and as such it while it won't apply to everyone, you also have to account for how many will give up before me. And I've been with Bioware since 1998, so I've got some mileage and reliability. Franchises aren’t as limited to existing fans as we sometimes imagine them to be. I’ve played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and have yet to play any of the earlier Shadowrun games. There are plenty of folks who got into Dragon Age from DA2 or Inquisition. Something in the marketing or reviews grabbed them that didn’t grab them for DA:O. IMO, this is one of the big strengths of having games set in a universe, rather than following one individual person. I think where franchises have to worry about lost relevance is when they go too inside-baseball for their existing fans, leaving no hooks for newcomers. Hell, we have people here who are fans of ME:A, which is a game that was released a decade after the original Mass Effect game. If you make the game worth playing, people will buy it. I'm more curious as to what time will do for BioWares reputation. Will the fervor against them due to their own faults subside, or will people continue their strong pessimism 3 years from now?
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 16:23:37 GMT
It's enough time for a lot of people to move on from Dragon Age. When DA4 finally comes out, people will be like "Oh right, that thing I played years ago." If they want to keep this franchise alive until then, they had better not stop releasing books and comics. I remember an interview with Mike Laidlaw a couple years back when he was asked a similar question. He pointed out that it largely doesn't matter how long a sequel takes to make (as long as it's good). Success won't be based on the time between releases. I imagine once those splashy new trailers hit, and the hype machine ramps up, they'll be fine. They'll have months to bring people back up to speed on the storyline. I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 16:26:47 GMT
Relevance is important. The new Terminator movie, for example, seems well liked by audience and critics, but tanked in the box office, exactly because it is no longer relevant. Striking when the iron is hot and all that. It's going to be nearly a decade since DA:I, which is the, so far, last Bioware game to have received a positive reception, upon release. Bouncing back is going to be difficult. I can't see myself waiting till 2023 for Dread Wolf, to be honest and 2027 for "Andromeda 2", but that's just me and as such it while it won't apply to everyone, you also have to account for how many will give up before me. And I've been with Bioware since 1998, so I've got some mileage and reliability. Its odd, I have seen a different reaction to Dark Fate. Its been getting a pretty much "meh" response from the critics I follow and my friends that saw it last weekend. The feelings I get from it is that its a serviceable movie that feels like it takes a lot from all the prior movies and at the same time is a far distance away from T1 and T2, but better then the other sequels which from my experience wasn't a high bar to cross. The other difference between something like Dark Fate and a BioWare game is at least for me there are going to be plenty of other action movies released with special effects over the next few years with what is now a generic plot, but BioWare still for me is fairly unique in what they release. I think it's fair to say that games, especially huge games the like of games from Bioware, are consumed differently than 2-3 hour blockbuster flicks.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 16:32:36 GMT
In gaming, Fallout 3 launched 10 years after Fallout 2 And a lot of people thought Fallout started with 3. The Fallout fans, at that point, were overshadowed and outshined by Oblivion kiddies. Fallout 4 was 7 years after 3 New Vegas. Skyrim was 5.5 years after Oblivion And Oblivion, just like Morrowind, enjoyed a very long life cycle thanks to mods. As does Skyrim. And for those wanting more Elder Scrolls, there is TESO. Diablo 3 came 12 years after D2, etc., etc.. I think it is safe to say that the Diablo franchise is an entirely other beast, on its own. Blizzard, up until the mid 2010s enjoyed a near cult like following. But that has clearly waned in recent years. I do not expect Overwatch 2 and D4 to enjoy the same success as their predecessors. Similarly, Bioware's damaged reputation will have an effect on Bioware products moving forward. Even Todd admitted that recent Bethesda titles have damaged their reputation and will be naive to think otherwise. New Colossus, for example, also damaged Wolfenstein's reputation and as such Youngblood didn't enjoy the same success. Or maybe that is entirely on the lack of BJ as a protagonist, neither reasons of which bode well, as examples for future endeavors of Bioware franchises, as set by precedents within the industry. Unless you want to place Bioware as an example outside of the rest of the industry, but I don't know if that's prudent.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 16:37:35 GMT
Its odd, I have seen a different reaction to Dark Fate. Its been getting a pretty much "meh" response from the critics I follow and my friends that saw it last weekend. The feelings I get from it is that its a serviceable movie that feels like it takes a lot from all the prior movies and at the same time is a far distance away from T1 and T2, but better then the other sequels which from my experience wasn't a high bar to cross. Last I saw, Rotten Tomatoes for example, has a rather favourable reception from both audience and critics. The other difference between something like Dark Fate and a BioWare game is at least for me there are going to be plenty of other action movies released with special effects over the next few years with what is now a generic plot, but BioWare still for me is fairly unique in what they release. The same thing you say about Bioware can be said for Terminator franchise fans. But at this point, perhaps, that is not enough.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 17:21:15 GMT
I remember an interview with Mike Laidlaw a couple years back when he was asked a similar question. He pointed out that it largely doesn't matter how long a sequel takes to make (as long as it's good). Success won't be based on the time between releases. I imagine once those splashy new trailers hit, and the hype machine ramps up, they'll be fine. They'll have months to bring people back up to speed on the storyline. I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood. If you're going to go this long between releases, changing protagonists is a good idea. You're going to have to do all the intro stuff anyway; might as well have it make some sense. It's hard to do even in best cases. Remember ME1 Shepard maybe not knowing who the Protheans were? Particularly enraging since you needed to ask that dopey question for an achievement.
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Post by Gilli on Nov 4, 2019 17:27:38 GMT
However, running your hardware at maximum for hours isn't always sustainable. I got through about 2/3 of DAI on a dual-core Athlon with a 6670 vidcard, which had been a pretty good cheap rig back in the day. Then the 6670 blew up. I can't remember the GPU I had in early 2010 when I finally picked up DAO, but it kept shutting down and rebooting my PC - the only game I had that did that - and when I checked the BIOS on reboot it was showing some insanely hot temp readings. Eventually the entire PC turned into a smouldering lump of plastic and metal, but by that time the business had taken off to the point where I could afford a nice new rig. I vividly remembering having to save-spam every three or four minutes, though, just so I didn't lose progress. Good times. Reading your post just reminded me, that DAO was the first game I played on this PC. My old PC's graphics card had died and would crash when I'd try to get to DAO's CC. Then I got a new PC in Nov 2014 and the very first thing I did, was play my very first DAO playthrough. It's still the same setup, except that we had to upgrade my graphics card, because I could only play MEA with 15 FPS (I like MEA )
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 17:45:47 GMT
I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood. If you're going to go this long between releases, changing protagonists is a good idea. You're going to have to do all the intro stuff anyway; might as well have it make some sense. It's hard to do even in best cases. Remember ME1 Shepard maybe not knowing who the Protheans were? Particularly enraging since you needed to ask that dopey question for an achievement. By the same logic it would make sense to drop the whole overarching story or change the subtly but painstakingly introduced and built-up antagonist, isn't it? Yet they seem to want to continue the storyline with Solas (and the enthusiastic response to hardcore fan-coded trailer is a testament to DAI's popularity) - so why not with Inquisitor, or in fact any other character we already know? Recurring characters, be it PC or not, is one of the things that people are familiar with when it comes to latest Bioware games. So your proposition only makes sense on a surface level. Introducing a new PC/character/antagonist is a different thing than re-introducing them. With new characters the storytellers have to lose time and space to build things all over again, and do it all/most within limited narrative space of one chapter. With recurring characters/themes/factions/else the narrative can be pushed further, as they can always point people to existing material to fill in the holes (which also means being encouraged to play previous games *$$$*). Also... are you trying to say that Bioware didn't have enough time between ME1 and now to practice and refine the art of 'doing all the stuff' they've been doing all those years?
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Felya87
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 4, 2019 18:32:19 GMT
I think the "people may have forgotten by now of the old games" is not something to worry about: if is such a worry, a re-release with the older games is all that's needed. Just look at Kingdom Hearts: the last game sold like bread, and we are talking of a very confusing story that spanned basically most consoles in the last two generations. A few videos and the collection with all the games was all that was needed.
Dragon Age, if anything, may just need the Dragon Keep being accesible right when starting the game instead of having to go to the net, create an account, putting the choices etc. A good idea, but slightly annoyng. Something like ME2 comic for the main choices (but as exaustive as the Keep) when starting the game would be more appropriated.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 4, 2019 18:40:40 GMT
Franchises aren’t as limited to existing fans as we sometimes imagine them to be. I’ve played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and have yet to play any of the earlier Shadowrun games. There are plenty of folks who got into Dragon Age from DA2 or Inquisition. Something in the marketing or reviews grabbed them that didn’t grab them for DA:O. You assume these people were around for gaming when DA:O was released. Some people grow into gaming, even within a year or two. Even so, DA2 enjoyed more sales on release, but less sales overall than DA:O in a 2 month period. IMO, this is one of the big strengths of having games set in a universe, rather than following one individual person. I think where franchises have to worry about lost relevance is when they go too inside-baseball for their existing fans, leaving no hooks for newcomers. You also have to account for the fact that Dread Wolf will be a direct sequel to Inquisition. So we are going in this title with baggage from a previous title. ? Have they announced that it’s going to be so closely tied to DA:I, or is that fan speculation? Like, obviously Solas is going to be Involved(tm) in some way, but Thedas is a big continent with lots of problems besides ancient elf gods, I’m not convinced he’ll be the focal point. If we go by advance marketing, Inquisition is about the mage templar war, DA2 is about fighting the Arishok, and Origins is about... the new shit, but that’s only one facet of what happens in each game. The fact that they keep teasing the Dread Wolf rising is more likely to mean that it’s NOT the biggest arc in the game.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 18:48:04 GMT
Have they announced that it’s going to be so closely tied to DA:I, or is that fan speculation? Like, obviously Solas is going to be Involved(tm) in some way, but Thedas is a big continent with lots of problems besides ancient elf gods, I’m not convinced he’ll be the focal point. Everything points to that, so far. Even Casey said in the Bioware blog that " the Dread Wolf Rises indeed". I mean, it still is possible, but they've not made any reference to anything other than that, so far. If we go by advance marketing, Inquisition is about the mage templar war, DA2 is about fighting the Arishok, and Origins is about... the new shit, but that’s only one facet of what happens in each game. The fact that they keep teasing the Dread Wolf rising is more likely to mean that it’s NOT the biggest arc in the game. That will be quite the subversion of expectations. At least I wouldn't be the one seeing that coming, from what I've heard and read so far.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 4, 2019 19:15:31 GMT
Have they announced that it’s going to be so closely tied to DA:I, or is that fan speculation? Like, obviously Solas is going to be Involved(tm) in some way, but Thedas is a big continent with lots of problems besides ancient elf gods, I’m not convinced he’ll be the focal point. Everything points to that, so far. Even Casey said in the Bioware blog that " the Dread Wolf Rises indeed". I mean, it still is possible, but they've not made any reference to anything other than that, so far. If we go by advance marketing, Inquisition is about the mage templar war, DA2 is about fighting the Arishok, and Origins is about... the new shit, but that’s only one facet of what happens in each game. The fact that they keep teasing the Dread Wolf rising is more likely to mean that it’s NOT the biggest arc in the game. That will be quite the subversion of expectations. At least I wouldn't be the one seeing that coming, from what I've heard and read so far. I’m not suggesting that Solas’s thing won’t be in DA4. It almost certainly will. But it’s a single plot thread among many. Like, someone can be not even slightly interested in the Blight and still enjoy Origins, even though the Archdemon is technically the main enemy. Arguably, Fereldan politics is the more visible antagonist, and there are dozens of smaller subplots that people find memorable.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 19:21:03 GMT
Everything points to that, so far. Even Casey said in the Bioware blog that " the Dread Wolf Rises indeed". I mean, it still is possible, but they've not made any reference to anything other than that, so far. That will be quite the subversion of expectations. At least I wouldn't be the one seeing that coming, from what I've heard and read so far. I’m not suggesting that Solas’s thing won’t be in DA4. It almost certainly will. But it’s a single plot thread among many. Like, someone can be not even slightly interested in the Blight and still enjoy Origins, even though the Archdemon is technically the main enemy. Arguably, Fereldan politics is the more visible antagonist, and there are dozens of smaller subplots that people find memorable. And I'm not suggesting it will be entirely railroaded and linear. Of course it will have subplots, but it will all, logically, converge in dealing with Solas, in the end. I mean, even in ME1, where the entire plot was Saren, you only came across Saren in 2 occasions; once in Virmire and once at the ending in the Citadel. I don't expect it to be like the beginning of End Game where you kill of Thanos in the first 5-10 minutes Surely there will be a bunch of stuff to do. You don't need 8-9 years to make a game that is just that, let alone a live service.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 4, 2019 19:52:40 GMT
I get the feeling that Bioware does better with short development cycles. I think they need real pressure. Like college kids who never hand in that paper without a sharp deadline from the start. I look at DA2 which was GREAT considering it was made in 1.5 years! I look at MEA and Anthem and read how they used the generous time frame to dick around for years without results... and I see more time does not mean a better product.
That said, I still think the reason for Bioware's development issues is Frostbite. And open world. More than bad leadership. The latter made things worse, obviously. But seems to me wasting time was connected to realizing that they couldn't do any of the stuff they dreamed of because Frostbite is a bitch.
I have my doubts they know by now what they can or can't do. Because many years after DAI they're still struggling with the engine. If you can't master an engine in TEN YEARS, just give up, yo! Beg EA to let you use another engine that's easier. Or try to limit the scope dramatically. Do The Outer Worlds with a AAA polish and I'll be happy. I want closure to the STORY, I don't care about collecting notes on a huge map.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 20:06:51 GMT
Everything points to that, so far. Even Casey said in the Bioware blog that " the Dread Wolf Rises indeed". I mean, it still is possible, but they've not made any reference to anything other than that, so far. That will be quite the subversion of expectations. At least I wouldn't be the one seeing that coming, from what I've heard and read so far. I’m not suggesting that Solas’s thing won’t be in DA4. It almost certainly will. But it’s a single plot thread among many. Like, someone can be not even slightly interested in the Blight and still enjoy Origins, even though the Archdemon is technically the main enemy. Arguably, Fereldan politics is the more visible antagonist, and there are dozens of smaller subplots that people find memorable. Huh... I'm really quite surprised that, after so many years discussing things on this forum, you'd think that way Solas isn't a single plot thread among many, but in fact appears to be THE thread that ties it all. They've been subtly building this thing up since DA:O, kept more overtly building it up within the Inquisition and then basically exposed it fully in Trespasser - for them now to divert or consider it 'just a side-thing' is an equivalent of focusing on an anthill when there's a giant meteor about to strike the ground. So, to call someone with plans to affect not just a continent, but entire reality as Thedosians know it (and that's after having a direct hand in creating that reality) 'a single plot thread among many' strikes me as very strange. I mean, you may have been only slightly interested with the Blight in DAO, but Origins was a starting point - we hardly knew anything about the Blight, because it wasn't really that important at the time. The first chapter had the job of establishing the basics of the entire universe for us to understand. Hence all the politics and subplots that... well... establish a lot of stuff. And we do know that DA2 was the follow-up of establishing and setting-up/expanding things they needed before they moved the story further (they're on record stating that). We're now past that point. It actually started with DAI and The Breach - we began moving past localized affairs towards main, overarching plot that ties or hovers above most things in the story. And it's a plot that, so far, appears to be inherently tied to Solas and both what he plans for the future and what he's witnessed/did in the past. Needless to say, I very much doubt DA4 will be like DAO or that DA4 will not treat Solas's plot as a focal point - not with years of build-up and with Trespasser existing as the obvious bridge between DAI and DA4. And I'd like to point out that, so far, Bioware folks do seem to really, really want us to remember Trespasser and how important it is to whatever happens next. Also, none of the auxillary materials released do anything to suggest they've abandoned the premise from Trespasser - which is, that we may get what is basically the 2nd part of Inquisition. IMO the fact that they keep stuffing references to the DLC whenever they can in current marketing materials, that the very first teaser is focused on Dread Wolf and the fact they they really, really want us to identify DA4 with #TheDreadWolfRises hashtag kinda speaks for itself.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 4, 2019 20:55:57 GMT
I’m not suggesting that Solas’s thing won’t be in DA4. It almost certainly will. But it’s a single plot thread among many. Like, someone can be not even slightly interested in the Blight and still enjoy Origins, even though the Archdemon is technically the main enemy. Arguably, Fereldan politics is the more visible antagonist, and there are dozens of smaller subplots that people find memorable. Huh... I'm really quite surprised that, after so many years discussing things on this forum, you'd think that way Solas isn't a single plot thread among many, but in fact appears to be THE thread that ties it all. They've been subtly building this thing up since DA:O, kept more overtly building it up within the Inquisition and then basically exposed it fully in Trespasser - for them now to divert or consider it 'just a side-thing' is an equivalent of focusing on an anthill when there's a giant meteor about to strike the ground. So, to call someone with plans to affect not just a continent, but entire reality as Thedosians know it (and that's after having a direct hand in creating that reality) 'a single plot thread among many' strikes me as very strange. I mean, you may have been only slightly interested with the Blight in DAO, but Origins was a starting point - we hardly knew anything about the Blight, because it wasn't really that important at the time. The first chapter had the job of establishing the basics of the entire universe for us to understand. Hence all the politics and subplots that... well... establish a lot of stuff. And we do know that DA2 was the follow-up of establishing and setting-up/expanding things they needed before they moved the story further (they're on record stating that). We're now past that point. It actually started with DAI and The Breach - we began moving past localized affairs towards main, overarching plot that ties or hovers above most things in the story. And it's a plot that, so far, appears to be inherently tied to Solas and both what he plans for the future and what he's witnessed/did in the past. Needless to say, I very much doubt DA4 will be like DAO or that DA4 will not treat Solas's plot as a focal point - not with years of build-up and with Trespasser existing as the obvious bridge between DAI and DA4. And I'd like to point out that, so far, Bioware folks do seem to really, really want us to remember Trespasser and how important it is to whatever happens next. Also, none of the auxillary materials released do anything to suggest they've abandoned the premise from Trespasser - which is, that we may get what is basically the 2nd part of Inquisition. IMO the fact that they keep stuffing references to the DLC whenever they can in current marketing materials, that the very first teaser is focused on Dread Wolf and the fact they they really, really want us to identify DA4 with #TheDreadWolfRises hashtag kinda speaks for itself. Right, and there’s a pretty good reason for that. Teasers are aimed at the truly diehard fans, because we’re only people paying attention this early in the process. I of course am looking forward to the continuation of the Dread Wolf storyline, but other stuff is going to (temporarily) come to the fore, like it always does. We also don’t know much about titans or the true nature of the Blight, so there are other Big Things lurking that are likely related to Solas’s stuff, but might come to overshadow him. I imagine we either get (1) Solas is the main focus early on, giving way to older/larger threats after the Veil is removed (2) Solas is in the back of our minds, but unaddressable (trail went cold, etc.) in early acts, making other stuff our primary focus. Then at the very end, the Veil comes down, and the older/larger threats arrive in DA5. Either way, there’ll be plenty of other stuff for newcomers to get excited about, that doesn’t require 3 games of background knowledge on Fen’Harel.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 4, 2019 21:00:33 GMT
I imagine we either get (1) Solas is the main focus early on, giving way to older/larger threats after the Veil is removed (2) Solas is in the back of our minds, but unaddressable (trail went cold, etc.) in early acts, making other stuff our primary focus. Then at the very end, the Veil comes down, and the older/larger threats arrive in DA5. I prefer a story that doesn’t involve the Veil coming down and the genocide that causes.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 4, 2019 21:08:29 GMT
I imagine we either get (1) Solas is the main focus early on, giving way to older/larger threats after the Veil is removed (2) Solas is in the back of our minds, but unaddressable (trail went cold, etc.) in early acts, making other stuff our primary focus. Then at the very end, the Veil comes down, and the older/larger threats arrive in DA5. I prefer a story that doesn’t involve the Veil coming down and the genocide that causes. That’s a valid preference, but storywise I don’t think the Veil removal is avoidable. Sandal’s prophecy says that all the magic will come back, so he can’t be referring to Corypheus. The only thing we know that would fit his description is Solas’s thing (or something functionally identical to it). That’s another reason why I question whether Solas’s plot will be the main focus. If his success (or, for the sake of argument, him failing and the Veil coming down for some other reason) is inevitable, then there’s not a lot of ways the player can influence that. So why spend tons of time on this plotline? Just rip off the bandaid and let us deal with the aftermath.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 4, 2019 21:16:09 GMT
I prefer a story that doesn’t involve the Veil coming down and the genocide that causes. That’s a valid preference, but storywise I don’t think the Veil removal is avoidable. Sandal’s prophecy says that all the magic will come back, so he can’t be referring to Corypheus. The only thing we know that would fit his description is Solas’s thing (or something functionally identical to it). That’s another reason why I question whether Solas’s plot will be the main focus. If his success (or, for the sake of argument, him failing and the Veil coming down for some other reason) is inevitable, then there’s not a lot of ways the player can influence that. So why spend tons of time on this plotline? Just rip off the bandaid and let us deal with the aftermath. Storywise I don’t see how making it inevitable is a good idea. If that was the case, why have the entire Trespasser plot, especially the end conversation with Solas and at Haven talking about stopping him? Prophecies don’t always come true, and others not in the way you think. Just ask the Jedi about the Chosen One prophecy.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 4, 2019 21:30:01 GMT
I get the feeling that Bioware does better with short development cycles. I think they need real pressure. Like college kids who never hand in that paper without a sharp deadline from the start. I look at DA2 which was GREAT considering it was made in 1.5 years! I look at MEA and Anthem and read how they used the generous time frame to dick around for years without results... and I see more time does not mean a better product. That said, I still think the reason for Bioware's development issues is Frostbite. And open world. More than bad leadership. The latter made things worse, obviously. But seems to me wasting time was connected to realizing that they couldn't do any of the stuff they dreamed of because Frostbite is a bitch. I have my doubts they know by now what they can or can't do. Because many years after DAI they're still struggling with the engine. If you can't master an engine in TEN YEARS, just give up, yo! Beg EA to let you use another engine that's easier. Or try to limit the scope dramatically. Do The Outer Worlds with a AAA polish and I'll be happy. I want closure to the STORY, I don't care about collecting notes on a huge map. I don't think its time frame, for wasn't the rumor that they really only had a year and a half for both Andromeda and Anthem? To me the problem is the eyes are bigger then the stomach especially since they have a massive publisher backing the game. Its more about the amount of money they are using to make the game so they don't put the constrictions on themselves like they did when they were independent they are wanting to put "all the things" into their games instead of picking and choosing what to add. That is the problem I think EA brought to BioWare and everything else BioWare has been able to deal with. I remember the stories about Mass Effect 1 and how they took sound recording equipment outside and captured different audio to make the sound of the Reapers, but I doubt that is something that they would do now.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 4, 2019 21:35:55 GMT
That’s a valid preference, but storywise I don’t think the Veil removal is avoidable. Sandal’s prophecy says that all the magic will come back, so he can’t be referring to Corypheus. The only thing we know that would fit his description is Solas’s thing (or something functionally identical to it). That’s another reason why I question whether Solas’s plot will be the main focus. If his success (or, for the sake of argument, him failing and the Veil coming down for some other reason) is inevitable, then there’s not a lot of ways the player can influence that. So why spend tons of time on this plotline? Just rip off the bandaid and let us deal with the aftermath. Storywise I don’t see how making it inevitable is a good idea. If that was the case, why have the entire Trespasser plot, especially the end conversation with Solas and at Haven talking about stopping him? Prophecies don’t always come true, and others not in the way you think. Just ask the Jedi about the Chosen One prophecy. I would guess that stopping him means he doesn’t do it. Maybe an rogue AoF agent, or some other faction does the final deed, which could affect how carefully it’s done or with what goals. We know from Corypheus that there are exceptionally bad ways for the Veil to be destroyed, ways that not even Solas is onboard with. I know I overuse the Fade=internet analogy a lot, but the rollout method matters a lot. Introducing the internet to a culture is extremely disruptive, but there are ways to do it that are more/less disruptive. Solas is jaded about this because he comes from a culture so steeped in the internet the Fade that it was hard to see all the benefits through all the enslavement to toxic, viral ideas the Evanuris. He saw the end state, the state we’re just on the cusp of IRL, where the internet the Fade is so integrated in daily life that we only notice it when it unleashes demons. I am going to studiously avoid referencing any real world politics. But like, it seems like it didn’t even occur to him that cutting off the internet the Fade would destroy elven medical advances immortality. In short, I think removing the Veil is more of a mixed bag than fatalistic!Zoomer Solas makes it out to be. The Veil removal might be inevitable, but how it happens + the surrounding societal conditions could make a huge difference in whether it’s a net positive or negative.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 4, 2019 21:45:45 GMT
I don't think its time frame, for wasn't the rumor that they really only had a year and a half for both Andromeda and Anthem? To me the problem is the eyes are bigger then the stomach especially since they have a massive publisher backing the game. Its more about the amount of money they are using to make the game so they don't put the constrictions on themselves like they did when they were independent they are wanting to put "all the things" into their games instead of picking and choosing what to add. That is the problem I think EA brought to BioWare and everything else BioWare has been able to deal with. I remember the stories about Mass Effect 1 and how they took sound recording equipment outside and captured different audio to make the sound of the Reapers, but I doubt that is something that they would do now. That too, yes. Both aspects come together. They are given generous development time AND get a generous budget. And now they're getting crazy ambitious ideas. The moment they sit down to actually work on these ideas, they realize that they can't make any of it work. Even worse, they can't even get simple things to work without issues anymore. Because it's not about budget and time as a AAA developer. At EA, it's about working with an engine that was not designed for RPGs. They have engine limitation now and perhaps a talent problem when it comes to making the best of that engine. And I suppose that's where the management issues come into play. Somebody should execute a reality check sooner.
When money isn't the issue, setting yourself realistic limits becomes an issue, definitely. Just look at Star Citizen. That's the embodiment of your ambitions running wild eating up time and money without getting anything done.
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