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Post by Iddy on Nov 28, 2019 18:20:29 GMT
As in the title.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 28, 2019 19:45:28 GMT
Going to get in before Catilina explodes all over the thread (I tease). No, she did not do the right thing. Her reason for doing so was predicated on the idea that the issue was solely about mage freedom. It was widely acknowledged that Kirkwall's circle was more extreme than most, with not only Meredith exerting ever tighter control over the mages, widespread abuse of the mages that was far beyond the typical templar maintenance of order, but also her attempted influence over Kirkwall politics. I don't say that Elthina should have "sided" with the mages, since I don't think that was likely to happen. However, I think there should have been serious discussions with the grand clerics about replacing Meredith with a knight-commander who wasn't so volatile and had more control over their subordinates. Even giving Meredith the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know about the abuses, it doesn't matter. As knight-commander of Kirkwall's circle, it was her duty to know, so she was ultimately responsible for stopping it. That she either didn't know or didn't care means that she was incompetent, ineffectual, indifferent, or all of the above, any one of which would demand her replacement.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2019 19:50:38 GMT
Anders: How can you keep standing up for her? Sebastian: Who? Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric. Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise— Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands. Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done. Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth.
Like Anders said.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2019 19:51:24 GMT
Her actions were the only thing keeping both sides in check (hence why the warmongering terrorist abomination formerly known as Anders killed her) and stopping the city from falling into chaos and countless people dying, so yes she did the right thing.
It’s not like she could have done more anyway, since things like removing Templars is not up to her.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2019 19:52:58 GMT
Anders: How can you keep standing up for her? Sebastian: Who? Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric. Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise— Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands. Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done. Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth. Like Anders said. Anders was a complete idiot as well as a monster.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2019 19:57:45 GMT
Her actions were the only thing keeping both sides in check and stopping the city from falling into chaos and countless people dying, so yes she did the right thing. It’s not like she could have done more anyway, since things like removing Templars is not up to her. There was no "both sides". The Circle is a property of the Chantry, and Elthina is the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall. The procurator of the Divine. She's responsible for everything about the Circle. The Chantry wanted this position, and she serves the Chantry. This is her duty. And she knew, Meredith abuses her power. She didn't want to do anything against her – so she supported her. She served Meredith with her "neutrality" (Hawke also can accuse her with that, like Anders said to Sebastian). But she's spineless to openly stay behind Meredith. And she's very good at this game... you also believe, she's neutral...
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Post by Iddy on Nov 28, 2019 20:00:09 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2019 20:08:01 GMT
Her actions were the only thing keeping both sides in check and stopping the city from falling into chaos and countless people dying, so yes she did the right thing. It’s not like she could have done more anyway, since things like removing Templars is not up to her. There was no "both sides". The Circle is a property of the Chantry, and Elthina is the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall. The procurator of the Divine. She's responsible for everything about the Circle. The Chantry wanted this position, and she serves the Chantry. This is her duty. And she knew, Meredith abuses her power. She didn't want to do anything against her – so she supported her. She served Meredith with her "neutrality" (Hawke also can accuse her with that, like Anders said to Sebastian). But she's spineless to openly stay behind Meredith. And she's very good at this game... you also believe, she's neutral... So if both groups are part of a larger group, there aren’t both sides? You realize how stupid that sounds right? Except she didn’t support her. She stood in Meredith’s way countless times like for example not approving Right of Annulment. Anders was more on Meredith’s side than Elthina was since at least both of them wanted the Kirkwall Circle wiped out. But I know that you can’t comprehend things like facts, and it’s clear this thread was just a troll one judging from the OP’s response so I’m done. It’s not like you’ll ever produce an argument Roth anything anyway.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 28, 2019 20:15:47 GMT
Iddy share me some popcorn?
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2019 20:19:18 GMT
There was no "both sides". The Circle is a property of the Chantry, and Elthina is the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall. The procurator of the Divine. She's responsible for everything about the Circle. The Chantry wanted this position, and she serves the Chantry. This is her duty. And she knew, Meredith abuses her power. She didn't want to do anything against her – so she supported her. She served Meredith with her "neutrality" (Hawke also can accuse her with that, like Anders said to Sebastian). But she's spineless to openly stay behind Meredith. And she's very good at this game... you also believe, she's neutral... So if both groups are part of a larger group, there aren’t both sides? You realize how stupid that sounds right? Except she didn’t support her. She stood in Meredith’s way countless times like for example not approving Right of Annulment. Anders was more on Meredith’s side than Elthina was since at least both of them wanted the Kirkwall Circle wiped out. But I know that you can’t comprehend things like facts, and it’s clear this thread was just a troll one judging from the OP’s response so I’m done. It’s not like you’ll ever produce an argument Roth anything anyway. Yes, if you can't see, she supported Meredith, she's very good at this game, as I said. Or... according to your logic, she supported the open rebellion... with her passivity, she incites the suppressed wrath of the mages ... choose! And it's not my fault if you don't understand. But I agree, Iddy loves to throw shit in the ventilator and just watching...
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 4,971 Likes: 12,405
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 28, 2019 20:21:37 GMT
as for the thread at hand...no, I don't think Elthina did the right thing to stay neutral, but I don't think her taking sides (one or the other) would've helped matters anyway Kirkwall was already a hornet's nest before Hawke and company arrived, and when Anders (+Justice) arrived and saw the state of the city...how can someone turn a blind eye to it for so many years?
so yeah, Anders blowing up the Chantry and killing Elthina (and Maker knows how many other people) wasn't a good thing, far from it in fact but if he hadn't...someone else might've done it eventually, just like someone eventually tried killing Justinia (multiple times), I doubt Elthina would've stayed safe anyway
Anders' actions was the drop of water spilling the bucket known as Kirkwall's problems, but as I said...if he hadn't, someone else probably would've done it sooner or later
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2019 20:23:33 GMT
So if both groups are part of a larger group, there aren’t both sides? You realize how stupid that sounds right?
Except she didn’t support her. She stood in Meredith’s way countless times like for example not approving Right of Annulment. Anders was more on Meredith’s side than Elthina was since at least both of them wanted the Kirkwall Circle wiped out.
But I know that you can’t comprehend things like facts, and it’s clear this thread was just a troll one judging from the OP’s response so I’m done. It’s not like you’ll ever produce an argument Roth anything anyway. Yes, if you can't see, she supported Meredith, she's very good at this game, as I said. Or... according to your logic, she supported the open rebellion... with her passivity, she incites the suppressed wrath of the mages ... choose! And it's not my fault if you don't understand. She supported everyone trying to stop countless people from dying. Something your boytoy Anders couldn't care less about.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2019 20:26:45 GMT
Yes, if you can't see, she supported Meredith, she's very good at this game, as I said. Or... according to your logic, she supported the open rebellion... with her passivity, she incites the suppressed wrath of the mages ... choose! And it's not my fault if you don't understand. She supported everyone trying to stop countless people from dying. Something your boytoy Anders couldn't care less about. If you right about that she tied to avoid the bloodshed, she's the stupidest and blindest person ever. And in her position this is a deadly sin.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 28, 2019 21:44:34 GMT
I would not say that Elthina could have stayed neutral at all, given she's beholden to chantry dogma and hierarchy. On the other hand, the local Grand Cleric does, at least in theory, outrank the Templar commander and Meredith was promoted with Elthina's support as far as I recall, so calling for a replacement wasn't completely out of question in that regard. If Meredith would have drawn her red sword, called Elthina a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, I guess the already doubting people like Cullen would have called Meredith nuts. I'm also not entirely sure if this is due to localisation issues, but it struck me as that Elthina knew about Petrice's shenanigans for some time before Petrice had Seamus murdered, and she did not act, even as Petrice rallyed groups of Elthina's community/"flock" into attacking the Qunari (and Hawke), getting them killed. That leads me to question if Elthina's "waiting the Maker's time" nonsense is even somewhat... malicious instead of plain ignorance. Yes, I called her reasoning nonsense. Did she missed the lesson saying that the Maker has abandoned "his" creations?
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Post by Iddy on Nov 29, 2019 0:17:34 GMT
Iddy share me some popcorn? Anytime, m8
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Post by fylimar on Nov 29, 2019 14:23:33 GMT
I would not say that Elthina could have stayed neutral at all, given she's beholden to chantry dogma and hierarchy. On the other hand, the local Grand Cleric does, at least in theory, outrank the Templar commander and Meredith was promoted with Elthina's support as far as I recall, so calling for a replacement wasn't completely out of question in that regard. If Meredith would have drawn her red sword, called Elthina a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, I guess the already doubting people like Cullen would have called Meredith nuts. I'm also not entirely sure if this is due to localisation issues, but it struck me as that Elthina knew about Petrice's shenanigans for some time before Petrice had Seamus murdered, and she did not act, even as Petrice rallyed groups of Elthina's community/"flock" into attacking the Qunari (and Hawke), getting them killed. That leads me to question if Elthina's "waiting the Maker's time" nonsense is even somewhat... malicious instead of plain ignorance. Yes, I called her reasoning nonsense. Did she missed the lesson saying that the Maker has abandoned "his" creations?
I agree, especially with the part about Petrice.
I also find it strange, that Elthina would sit by, while a templar commander takes control over a city. And she should have at least try to find out, if any of the accusations about the Kirkwall circle are true or not and acting accordingly. I'm thinking about the tranquil solution of Ser Alrik and some of the other atrocities commited by the templars, but also some of the bloodmage activity. Just sitting by and hope that the maker sorts it out, was the worst thing, she could have done. Maybe Anders would still have blewn up the church or someone else would have done something terrible, but maybe not.
And if Elthina would have decided to get actively involved, maybe it would have come out, that Meredith was unfit as knight commander due to her red lyrium affliction, who knows.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 4, 2019 23:15:04 GMT
By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's direct superior. For all intents and purposes, "staying neutural" is the same as taking the side of Meredith's flagrant law-breaking.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 3:50:16 GMT
Going to get in before Catilina explodes all over the thread (I tease). No, she did not do the right thing. Her reason for doing so was predicated on the idea that the issue was solely about mage freedom. It was widely acknowledged that Kirkwall's circle was more extreme than most, with not only Meredith exerting ever tighter control over the mages, widespread abuse of the mages that was far beyond the typical templar maintenance of order, but also her attempted influence over Kirkwall politics. I don't say that Elthina should have "sided" with the mages, since I don't think that was likely to happen. However, I think there should have been serious discussions with the grand clerics about replacing Meredith with a knight-commander who wasn't so volatile and had more control over their subordinates. Even giving Meredith the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know about the abuses, it doesn't matter. As knight-commander of Kirkwall's circle, it was her duty to know, so she was ultimately responsible for stopping it. That she either didn't know or didn't care means that she was incompetent, ineffectual, indifferent, or all of the above, any one of which would demand her replacement. Agreed she should have taken actoin and worked wit hboth Orsino and Meredit hto rty to solve the situation befoer after all I think that's the main reason wh yAnders felt he had to tak ethe action he did. I think if he fel tthere was a chance for peacr and Elthina was going to do something about it he wouldn't have felt the need to blow the chantry up. I think Anders was onl ytaking action becaus enobody else was prepared to do so.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 4:50:02 GMT
The Gallows was going to be Annulled regardless of what Anders did; Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Justinia for the Right. So Anders's options were essentially to stand back and do nothing while Meredith repeated what happened to the Antiva City Circle, or he could make sure the world knew the truth this time.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 5:07:24 GMT
Going to get in before Catilina explodes all over the thread (I tease). No, she did not do the right thing. Her reason for doing so was predicated on the idea that the issue was solely about mage freedom. It was widely acknowledged that Kirkwall's circle was more extreme than most, with not only Meredith exerting ever tighter control over the mages, widespread abuse of the mages that was far beyond the typical templar maintenance of order, but also her attempted influence over Kirkwall politics. I don't say that Elthina should have "sided" with the mages, since I don't think that was likely to happen. However, I think there should have been serious discussions with the grand clerics about replacing Meredith with a knight-commander who wasn't so volatile and had more control over their subordinates. Even giving Meredith the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know about the abuses, it doesn't matter. As knight-commander of Kirkwall's circle, it was her duty to know, so she was ultimately responsible for stopping it. That she either didn't know or didn't care means that she was incompetent, ineffectual, indifferent, or all of the above, any one of which would demand her replacement. Agreed she should have taken actoin and worked wit hboth Orsino and Meredit hto rty to solve the situation befoer after all I think that's the main reason wh yAnders felt he had to tak ethe action he did. I think if he fel tthere was a chance for peacr and Elthina was going to do something about it he wouldn't have felt the need to blow the chantry up. I think Anders was onl ytaking action becaus enobody else was prepared to do so. The warmongering terroeist abomination didn't want peace. It tells us as much. That's why it decided to kill her and over a hundred others to cause Meredith to kill hundreds more to spark a war that would kill countless people.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 13:03:19 GMT
Agreed she should have taken actoin and worked wit hboth Orsino and Meredit hto rty to solve the situation befoer after all I think that's the main reason wh yAnders felt he had to tak ethe action he did. I think if he fel tthere was a chance for peacr and Elthina was going to do something about it he wouldn't have felt the need to blow the chantry up. I think Anders was onl ytaking action becaus enobody else was prepared to do so. The warmongering terroeist abomination didn't want peace. It tells us as much. That's why it decided to kill her and over a hundred others to cause Meredith to kill hundreds more to spark a war that would kill countless people. If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 5, 2019 13:10:44 GMT
Two things.
1. "You're either for us or against us" and any of its variations are the attitude of extremists. Extremists are bad.
2. If "but they didn't do anything to improve things" ever truly becomes a valid reason for killing people, I will be one very busy dude.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 13:28:44 GMT
The warmongering terroeist abomination didn't want peace. It tells us as much. That's why it decided to kill her and over a hundred others to cause Meredith to kill hundreds more to spark a war that would kill countless people. If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. In particular she could have used Leliana's visit to send a message that Meredith was out of control and the Seekers needed to do something about her if she was worried about Meredith retaliating to an open attempt to do so. Instead she opted to lie to the Divine.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Go Team!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 14:21:50 GMT
If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. In particular she could have used Leliana's visit to send a message that Meredith was out of control and the Seekers needed to do something about her if she was worried about Meredith retaliating to an open attempt to do so. Instead she opted to lie to the Divine. Yeah she could ahe could also have spoken to Cullen and addressed her concerns to him about Meredith maybe even asked him to investigate her a tleast to eep her under conrtol until the seekers arrived. At th eend of the day Cullen I think was still nervous and hurting after wha thappened in Ferelden but I think he would still have followed Elthina's orders had she issued them to him. Admittedly he was Meredith's second and he may have been nervous about going againswt her but I think Cullen would have at least carried an investigation out. Whether he'sd hav efound anything given how paranoid Meredith was at the time is another question.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 5, 2019 17:55:56 GMT
In particular she could have used Leliana's visit to send a message that Meredith was out of control and the Seekers needed to do something about her if she was worried about Meredith retaliating to an open attempt to do so. Instead she opted to lie to the Divine. Yeah she could ahe could also have spoken to Cullen and addressed her concerns to him about Meredith maybe even asked him to investigate her a tleast to eep her under conrtol until the seekers arrived. At th eend of the day Cullen I think was still nervous and hurting after wha thappened in Ferelden but I think he would still have followed Elthina's orders had she issued them to him. Admittedly he was Meredith's second and he may have been nervous about going againswt her but I think Cullen would have at least carried an investigation out. Whether he'sd hav efound anything given how paranoid Meredith was at the time is another question. Dude, what is going on with your keyboard?
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