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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 18:11:21 GMT
The warmongering terroeist abomination didn't want peace. It tells us as much. That's why it decided to kill her and over a hundred others to cause Meredith to kill hundreds more to spark a war that would kill countless people. If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 20:41:19 GMT
If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. No he didn' t say that he asid he did it because he felt there wasn't going to be one or at least that's how I interpreteted it. Because if ther ewas going t obe a compromised by that point Elthina would and should have offered it
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 20:46:41 GMT
Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. No he didn' t say that he asid he did it because he felt there wasn't going to be one or at least that's how I interpreteted it. Because if ther ewas going t obe a compromised by that point Elthina would and should have offered it Orsino: "Why? Why would you do such a thing?" Anders: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise." He's very clear that the only option he'd even consider is complete capitulation from everyone to giving everything he wanted. Since he wasn't going to get his way through peace, he decided to throw a tantrum that costed the lives of tens of thousands as a result of his actions.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 20:50:43 GMT
If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. You're joking. Elthina's compromise isn't compromise. Did you hear, what she said to the templars in the beginning of Act 1, when she ordered them to escort Orsino back to the Circle? "Gently, pls!" I'm sure, you think, this is a proof, how nice is Elthina, how cares about the mages. But no. She said it, because she knew, the practice is totally different – and wanted to show, how merciful is her. In this scene, she proved, she support Meredith. Yes, she sent Meredith back to the Circle – aw, but this is equal treatment! No. With this "equal"treatment she proved, she stands by Meredith and her methods. Not mentioned: at the moment, if she sends them both back to the Circle again – Meredith would continue her horror, and not many times later, Annul the Circle. Behid the closed door. But her hands remains clean, isn't? She proved, she's "neutral" and always so kind! Not Anders took the compromise away. But you right about it, that was never compromise. He still hoped for the last moment. You cited Anders, so I'll too: "No. Talk of mages! Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered to pick a side. Perhaps, she will more inclined to listen to you." In his personal quest... And what a surprise: She was not able to listen Hawke.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 20:59:59 GMT
Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. You're joking. Elthina's compromise isn't compromise. Did you hear, what she said to the templars in the beginning of Act 1, when she ordered them to escort Orsino back to the Circle? "Gently, pls!" I'm sure, you think, this is a proof, how nice is Elthina, how cares about the mages. But no. She said it, because she knew, the practice is totally different – and wanted to show, how merciful is her. In this scene, she proved, she support Meredith. Yes, she sent Meredith back to the Circle – aw, but this is equal treatment! No. With this "equal"treatment she proved, she stands by Meredith and her methods. Not mentioned: at the moment, if she sends them both back to the Circle again – Meredith would continue her horror, and not many times later, Annul the Circle. Behid the closed door. But her hands remains clean, isn't? She proved, she's "neutral" and always so kind! Not Anders took the compromise away. But you right about it, that was never compromise. He still hoped for the last moment. You cited Anders, so I'll too: "No. Talk of mages! Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered to pick a side. Perhaps, she will more inclined to listen to you." In his personal quest... And what a surprise: She was not able to listen Hawke. You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 21:01:54 GMT
You're joking. Elthina's compromise isn't compromise. Did you hear, what she said to the templars in the beginning of Act 1, when she ordered them to escort Orsino back to the Circle? "Gently, pls!" I'm sure, you think, this is a proof, how nice is Elthina, how cares about the mages. But no. She said it, because she knew, the practice is totally different – and wanted to show, how merciful is her. In this scene, she proved, she support Meredith. Yes, she sent Meredith back to the Circle – aw, but this is equal treatment! No. With this "equal"treatment she proved, she stands by Meredith and her methods. Not mentioned: at the moment, if she sends them both back to the Circle again – Meredith would continue her horror, and not many times later, Annul the Circle. Behid the closed door. But her hands remains clean, isn't? She proved, she's "neutral" and always so kind! Not Anders took the compromise away. But you right about it, that was never compromise. He still hoped for the last moment. You cited Anders, so I'll too: "No. Talk of mages! Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered to pick a side. Perhaps, she will more inclined to listen to you." In his personal quest... And what a surprise: She was not able to listen Hawke. You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit. No, I don't believe such a thing, but you believe, that the lobotomy is a mercy. Wants to continue that, or you able to be civil? I would appreciate...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 21:04:12 GMT
You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit. No, I don't believe such a thing, but you believe, that the lobotomy is a mercy. Wants to continue that, or you able to be civil? I would appreciate... You have on countless occasions said that exact thing, so you are a liar as well.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 21:51:25 GMT
If he felt peace w asan option I'm suer Andres could have kept it unde rconrtolafter all hje had managed to do tha tup until the end of the game. I think he only took that optoin as h efelt he had no choice given Elthina wasn't doing abything to keep Meredith under control.H eonl ydid what he did because nobody in authority was listening. By trying to keep everything neutral effectively gave Meredit han open goal to shoot at instead of ordering her to stand down and try to find a peaceful option. Orsino was no fool he at least seemed willing to negotiate he only did wha the did himsl fbecause again he felt he had no option his back ws against the wall.I suspect the whol emess could have been avoided had Elthina stepped in and took action. Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. What he meant was that any "compromise" would have meant going right back to the atrocious status quo, since Elthina clearly has no interest in actually getting her subordinates under control and making them obey their own laws. Besides that, Elthina only delayed the Annulment. If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. The third time the Right of Annulment was used, Knight-Commander Gervasio faked an uncontrollable demon infestation to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was killing mages out of pure bigotry. Though Knight-Captain Nicholas was eventually dealt with by the Seekers, the truth remained hidden from the rest of the Circle of Magi, and the status quo kept right on going despite such a blatant example of what was wrong with it. By provoking Meredith into jumping the gun instead of waiting for permission from Justinia, Anders single-handedly stopped history from repeating itself at the Gallows.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 22:19:30 GMT
Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. What he meant was that any "compromise" would have meant going right back to the atrocious status quo, since Elthina clearly has no interest in actually getting her subordinates under control and making them obey their own laws. Besides that, Elthina only delayed the Annulment. If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. That’s not what compromise means, so I doubt that’s what he meant. He saw any kind of Circle, even ones with no abuses, as unacceptable. He wasn’t willing to compromise so he took away anyone else’s chance. Ironic how the man who keeps going on about freedom robbed countless people, including those he supposedly cares for, of it. As for Justinia, well as you mentioned she sent Leliana to investigate. So once Leliana returned with the facts, it’s very likely that she too would have denied Meredith’s request. After all, we know what side she is on when it comes to the conflict.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 22:31:37 GMT
What he meant was that any "compromise" would have meant going right back to the atrocious status quo, since Elthina clearly has no interest in actually getting her subordinates under control and making them obey their own laws. Besides that, Elthina only delayed the Annulment. If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. That’s not what compromise means, so I doubt that’s what he meant. He saw any kind of Circle, even ones with no abuses, as unacceptable. He wasn’t willing to compromise so he took away anyone else’s chance. Ironic how the man who keeps going on about freedom robbed countless people, including those he supposedly cares for, of it. As for Justinia, well as you mentioned she sent Leliana to investigate. So once Leliana returned with the facts, it’s very likely that she too would have denied Meredith’s request. After all, we know what side she is on when it comes to the conflict. Leliana was not here to investigate Meredith's sins. She was there to investigate the blood mage and Resolutionist presence in Kirkwall. Nothing about the Templars. Also, Elthina probably painted the situation absolutely okay in the Circle. Leliana supposed the danger come from the mages, Tevinter, not from the Knight-Commander of Kirkwall.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 22:33:11 GMT
That’s not what compromise means, so I doubt that’s what he meant. He saw any kind of Circle, even ones with no abuses, as unacceptable. He wasn’t willing to compromise so he took away anyone else’s chance. Ironic how the man who keeps going on about freedom robbed countless people, including those he supposedly cares for, of it. As for Justinia, well as you mentioned she sent Leliana to investigate. So once Leliana returned with the facts, it’s very likely that she too would have denied Meredith’s request. After all, we know what side she is on when it comes to the conflict. Leliana was not here to investigate Meredith's sins. She was there to investigate the blood mage and Resolutionist presence in Kirkwall. Nothing about the Templars. Also, Elthina probably painted the situation absolutely okay in the Circle. Leliana supposed the danger come from the mages, Tevinter, not from the Knight-Commander of Kirkwall. You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 22:35:33 GMT
Leliana was not here to investigate Meredith's sins. She was there to investigate the blood mage and Resolutionist presence in Kirkwall. Nothing about the Templars. Also, Elthina probably painted the situation absolutely okay in the Circle. Leliana supposed the danger come from the mages, Tevinter, not from the Knight-Commander of Kirkwall. You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit. What about your Justinia? She honored what Celene did in the Alienage. There was no compromise, yes? Some murders are okay? Some murderers are okay?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 22:39:32 GMT
You believe murdering innocent people is a good thing. Your opinions and views hold no merit. What about your Justinia? She honored what Celene did in the Alienage. There was no compromise, yes? Some murders are okay? Some murderers are okay? Who ever said I supported Justinia? All I said regarding her was with all we know her support was definitely more towards the mages considering things like Asunder. Those mages were actively rebelling at the end and she still didn’t support the Templars, instead focusing on peace. As for Celene, well you’ll never see me defend her regarding that. Unlike you, I treat everyone equally.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 22:40:12 GMT
What he meant was that any "compromise" would have meant going right back to the atrocious status quo, since Elthina clearly has no interest in actually getting her subordinates under control and making them obey their own laws. Besides that, Elthina only delayed the Annulment. If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. That’s not what compromise means, so I doubt that’s what he meant. He saw any kind of Circle, even ones with no abuses, as unacceptable. He wasn’t willing to compromise so he took away anyone else’s chance. Ironic how the man who keeps going on about freedom robbed countless people, including those he supposedly cares for, of it. As for Justinia, well as you mentioned she sent Leliana to investigate. So once Leliana returned with the facts, it’s very likely that she too would have denied Meredith’s request. After all, we know what side she is on when it comes to the conflict. Well, as you said, that's not what "compromise" means, thus Anders's statement that "there is no compromise." Elthina certainly wasn't offering a real one considering her refusal to do anything about Meredith's blatant law-breaking. Leliana makes no mention of the Templars' misdeeds during her investigation. She's focused entirely on the Resolutionists. If her report to Justinia were to include anything about Meredith being out of control, it would have come up during her appearance, yet it is conspicuous in its absence. Combined with Elthina's lies, that leaves Justinia only with Meredith's twisted version of the situation. Besides that, Justinia's support for the mages didn't prevent the Annulment of Dairsmuid while the Nevarran Accord was still in effect.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 22:45:22 GMT
What about your Justinia? She honored what Celene did in the Alienage. There was no compromise, yes? Some murders are okay? Some murderers are okay? Who ever said I supported Justinia? All I said regarding her was with all we know her support was definitely more towards the mages considering things like Asunder. Those mages were actively rebelling at the end and she still didn’t support the Templars, instead focusing on peace. As for Celene, well you’ll never see me defend her regarding that. Unlike you, I treat everyone equally. I didn't speak about Celene. I spoke about Justinia. She strengthened Celene on the throne, after she burned the Alienage. You're okay with Justinia. Only condemn Celene... Yes, you're "neutral" like Elthina. Oh, her hands are clean, as the fresh snow. Everything around her is bloody as hell. But she smiles meekly.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 22:45:25 GMT
"No. Talk of mages! Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered to pick a side. Perhaps, she will more inclined to listen to you." In his personal quest... And what a surprise: She was not able to listen Hawke. She did listen. She just didn't give you the answer you wanted.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 22:51:43 GMT
If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. You're assuming Justinia would have said "yes".
Anders doesn't have the right to decide for the Circle that they are all going to be unwilling martyrs for the sake of proving his point.
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 22:55:34 GMT
Nope. Anders didn't want peace. He wanted only what he wanted. Again, he states to us that the reason he blew up the Chantry was because Elthina offered a chance of compromise between the two sides, and there can be no compromise. Elthina was the only thing keeping Meredith from annuling the Circle, which is what Anders also wanted to happen to use them as a martyr to spark a war. What he meant was that any "compromise" would have meant going right back to the atrocious status quo, since Elthina clearly has no interest in actually getting her subordinates under control and making them obey their own laws. Besides that, Elthina only delayed the Annulment. If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. The third time the Right of Annulment was used, Knight-Commander Gervasio faked an uncontrollable demon infestation to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was killing mages out of pure bigotry. Though Knight-Captain Nicholas was eventually dealt with by the Seekers, the truth remained hidden from the rest of the Circle of Magi, and the status quo kept right on going despite such a blatant example of what was wrong with it. By provoking Meredith into jumping the gun instead of waiting for permission from Justinia, Anders single-handedly stopped history from repeating itself at the Gallows. Exactl yElthina wasn't tasking any action whic hwhy Anders felt he had to. I'm no tasyin geither side is righ t o rwron gin wha tthe yudid but I certainly can see why Anders felt the way he did and why he took the actions he did even if he was going to be executed for it.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 22:57:10 GMT
If Karras is alive in Act 3, he states that Meredith went over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Divine Justinia for the Right. Since Elthina opted to lie to Leliana, Justinia's only information would have Meredith's heavily distorted account. The moment Justinia's answer came it would have been out of Elthina's hands. You're assuming Justinia would have said "yes".
Anders doesn't have the right to decide for the Circle that they are all going to be unwilling martyrs for the sake of proving his point.
Anders doesn't know Justinia's position on the matter. Since Elthina lied to Leliana and we know that Meredith's perception does not reflect reality, a "yes" answer is a strong possibility based on what the characters know in-universe. Meredith doesn't have the right to wipe out a Circle on false pretenses, and yet that's exactly what she was attempting to do regardless of Anders's involvement. He just made sure that the Seekers wouldn't be able to cover it up a second time.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:06:59 GMT
Anders doesn't know Justinia's position on the matter. Since Elthina lied to Leliana and we know that Meredith's perception does not reflect reality, a "yes" answer is a strong possibility based on what the characters know in-universe. In-universe, Anders probably doesn't even know that Meredith sent for the right of Annulment since he never even mentions it and, by God, Anders never shuts up about what he perceives to be the "wrongs" of the Chantry. At any rate, it's a huge assumption to make that Justinia would countenance a Knight Commander going over the head of a Grand Cleric and would just sign off on wholesale purge. One should certainly not attempt to set off the hypothetical purge early based on such flimsy evidence.
And when did Elthina lie to Leliana?
Two wrongs don't make a right. And, again, Anders' convictions about the "evilness" of the Chantry does not grant him the right to decide when and how the mages of Kirkwall should die. He is not documenting an atrocity in order to make sure the world knows, he is committing it.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 5, 2019 23:07:03 GMT
You're assuming Justinia would have said "yes".
Anders doesn't have the right to decide for the Circle that they are all going to be unwilling martyrs for the sake of proving his point.
Anders doesn't know Justinia's position on the matter. Since Elthina lied to Leliana and we know that Meredith's perception does not reflect reality, a "yes" answer is a strong possibility based on what the characters know in-universe. Meredith doesn't have the right to wipe out a Circle on false pretenses, and yet that's exactly what she was attempting to do regardless of Anders's involvement. He just made sure that the Seekers wouldn't be able to cover it up a second time. Agreed she has the authority t olead the templars unde rher command but sh edoesn't have the right to call an Annulment without the Chantry's permission we already know this from Origins because Gregoir if I remembre rightly was waiting for permission and extra support from Denerim's chantry when we do the Broken Circle quest when he requested it. Which is why he gave you (as the warden)grudging permission to see what you could do. As he was hoping you could stop it without killing all the mages because he doesn't want all the mages dead if it can be helped he just wants the tower restored to order. Meredith on the other hand did want them all executed and was willing to break her own rules that templars aer supposed to obey to do so.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 23:16:05 GMT
Anders doesn't know Justinia's position on the matter. Since Elthina lied to Leliana and we know that Meredith's perception does not reflect reality, a "yes" answer is a strong possibility based on what the characters know in-universe. In-universe, Anders probably doesn't even know that Meredith sent for the right of Annulment since he never even mentions it and, by God, Anders never shuts up about what he perceives to be the "wrongs" of the Chantry. At any rate, it's a huge assumption to make that Justinia would countenance a Knight Commander going over the head of a Grand Cleric and would just sign off on wholesale purge. One should certainly not attempt to set off the hypothetical purge early based on such flimsy evidence.
And when did Elthina lie to Leliana?
Two wrongs don't make a right. And, again, Anders' convictions about the "evilness" of the Chantry does not grant him the right to decide when and how the mages of Kirkwall should die. He is not documenting an atrocity in order to make sure the world knows, he is committing it.
That's because the game needs to account for the possibility that Karras is dead. Considering he's one step behind Alrik, a lot of people are going to kill him when they get the chance. But the fact remains that Hawke can directly hear from Karras that Meredith has sent for the Annulment, and Anders can be in the party when that happens. Elthina told Hawke to tell Leliana that the situation wasn't as bad as it seemed. She lied by omission about Meredith's extensive crimes that were directly responsible for the current situation. We know this because Leliana never mentions Meredith's crimes; she's focused only on the Resolutionists. Meredith's convictions about the presence of "blood mages" does not grant her the right to decide that an entire Circle needs to be wiped out on a whim. Meredith didn't have to Annul the Circle in response to Anders's crime. There was absolutely nothing stopping her from taking him into custody and executing him for what he did, especially since she knew that he was never a resident of the Gallows. The Annulment of the Gallows was at least as much of an atrocity as the chantry explosion, and it is one that Meredith chose to commit. That is was Anders meant when he said that the world needs to see that the Circle is not a solution. They both committed an atrocity. His was committed for the purpose of exposing hers.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 23:23:36 GMT
Anders doesn't know Justinia's position on the matter. Since Elthina lied to Leliana and we know that Meredith's perception does not reflect reality, a "yes" answer is a strong possibility based on what the characters know in-universe. In-universe, Anders probably doesn't even know that Meredith sent for the right of Annulment since he never even mentions it and, by God, Anders never shuts up about what he perceives to be the "wrongs" of the Chantry. At any rate, it's a huge assumption to make that Justinia would countenance a Knight Commander going over the head of a Grand Cleric and would just sign off on wholesale purge. One should certainly not attempt to set off the hypothetical purge early based on such flimsy evidence.
And when did Elthina lie to Leliana?
Two wrongs don't make a right. And, again, Anders' convictions about the "evilness" of the Chantry does not grant him the right to decide when and how the mages of Kirkwall should die. He is not documenting an atrocity in order to make sure the world knows, he is committing it.
Anders knew about the plan. Even Hawke knew about that plan – and Anders was in connection with some mages, I'm sure. He was a part of the Mage underground – Meredith may destroyed that... but not everyone. If Karras knew and spoke about it, many able to know and to speak about it. Justinia knew about the blood mage and Resolutions presence – this is why she sent Leliana, to investigate that danger. It was because of Meredith's letter, or from other reason, I don't know – but Meredith easily can justify an Annulment. Elthina didn't want any investigation. She covered what happening in Kirkwall. You can explain it with benevolence – i can explain it with complicity. That's not two equal evil. The one is a systematic opression. The other is one act against that. Nothing equal about them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 23:36:23 GMT
That's not two equal evil. The one is a systematic opression. The other is one act against that. Nothing equal about them. Both are acts of mass murder of innocent t people. They are equal evils. Only idiots or psychopaths think differently.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:40:15 GMT
That's because the game needs to account for the possibility that Karras is dead. Considering he's one step behind Alrik, a lot of people are going to kill him when they get the chance. But the fact remains that Hawke can directly hear from Karras that Meredith has sent for the Annulment, and Anders can be in the party when that happens. Just as Anders might not be in the party. Now what? The game could have easily have him say "My sources inside the Gallows tell me that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment from the Divine herself" yes he never does. Or she sincerely believes that the situation is not as bad as it seems and Leliana considers that the Resolutionists are a bigger threat than Meredith.
There's no lie implied in any of this.
Again, two wrongs don't make a right. Anders just decided for the whole Circle that they were all going to become unwilling martyrs in the name of freedom. At least Meredith had been driven mad by the Blight at that point, what's his excuse?
Furthermore, the only thing Anders proved is that the system works because while Elthina was alive, she was keeping Meredith's more murderous tendencies in check as she was supposed to.
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