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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 14:49:37 GMT
Opposite: Elthina created that, when she sent Orsino and Meredith both back to the Circle, without statement: that Meredith is the Knight Commander, but a viscount should govern the city. Without this statement, she strengthened Meredith's position over Kirkwall, not just the mages. With this she declared, the Chantry and the Templars has every right over the whole city. You should take this opportunity to work out a bit because that was a huge stretch you just made. Not. This was the pure truth: Meredith prevented the election with Elthina's support. Elthina supported Meredith implicitly. This exists in the politics. People often compare the Chantry with Catholic Church... so... about sin... "By thought, word, deed, and omission..." (Catholic liturgy...)
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 15:06:51 GMT
Bush was a politician so that very much justified Osama Bin Laden.
Terrorism is NEVER justified. Period.
That "Bush and Osama Bin Laden" thing is a big fat bullshit here. I said, Justinia is a politician, and if she's thinking in this way, as you and others also said: Justinia and the Seekers were able to sacrifice Kirkwall mages, or if it needed, the Kirkwall itself. It's a genocide... Meredith prepared to a genocide, and it was not secret, Karras and even Cullen said openly. So: the Chantry can be Justified? The genocide can be justified? You seriously need to stop taking everything that is said and then stetching it to the most extreme position imaginable. Even if Justinia was willing to use Meredith, that is a whole world's away from being "able to sacrifice Kirkwall itself". There is zero chance that Justinia; the Divine whose whole platform was reform; was ever going to grant Meredith the right to Annul a Circle in a city known for having one of the most porous Veils in Thedas.
Anders, on the other hand, is the textbook definition of a terrorist.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 15:17:21 GMT
That "Bush and Osama Bin Laden" thing is a big fat bullshit here. I said, Justinia is a politician, and if she's thinking in this way, as you and others also said: Justinia and the Seekers were able to sacrifice Kirkwall mages, or if it needed, the Kirkwall itself. It's a genocide... Meredith prepared to a genocide, and it was not secret, Karras and even Cullen said openly. So: the Chantry can be Justified? The genocide can be justified? You seriously need to stop taking everything that is said and then stetching it to the most extreme position imaginable. Even if Justinia was willing to use Meredith, that is a whole world's away from being "able to sacrifice Kirkwall itself". There is zero chance that Justinia; the Divine whose whole platform was reform; was ever going to grant Meredith the right to Annul a Circle in a city known for having one of the most porous Veils in Thedas.
Anders, on the other hand, is the textbook definition of a terrorist. Like "unlawful violence"? Rofl. My favourite part of the definition... The Chantry, Celene is the "lawful violence". Just remember: Justinia had no problem with Celene's genocide... so, PERHAPS those methods weren't so far from her... for the reform, probably? It's better? Not. This is terror. The Annulment (massacre of a group of people) was a declared RIGHT... LAW... What Anders did, was against this terror – with morally questionable act, of course. Grey. In this world, Anders is among the good guys – even if his act was morally questionable (of course it was...) Just a friendly reminder: in game we can reward wtith crown someone who committed genocide... we can support someone who prepares a genocide... so: where is the moral?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 19:54:45 GMT
There is zero chance that Justinia; the Divine whose whole platform was reform; was ever going to grant Meredith the right to Annul a Circle in a city known for having one of the most porous Veils in Thedas. She was considering an Exalted March on the whole city. In fact, had the DLC not been cancelled, that is precisely what would have happened. So it doesn't seem that much of a stretch that Justinia would have agreed to the Annulment if Meredith put forward a decent enough case for it. As I've said before, it seems likely that Leliana was sent to Kirkwall in order to check out the situation so Justinia could decide what to do. Since she is advising Elthina to get out whilst she can, it does seem as though the report is not going to be favourable. If the Veil is known to be so thin there it is likely to give her more reason to allow it since Meredith could argue too many demons are getting through and corrupting the mages. Justinia is happy to bring about reform on her terms. However, Cassandra says that Leliana is wrong to think that Justinia would have gone as far as freeing the mages entirely. When she helped the mages escape the White Spire I think she thought it wouldn't be long before they saw sense and then surrendered on her terms. In fact she sends peace overtures to them at Andoral's Reach. When Fiona is putting this to the vote she says that they will be surrendering to the Divine's mercy and no doubt some heads would have to roll in order for Justinia to save face. They would be going back to reformed Circles but still under the control of the Divine, which is what Cassandra institutes if she is Divine. As Justinia authorised the new Cumberland Chant of Light, which includes the Canticle of Shartan, it would seem restoring that was something she wanted to do but likely that would be as far as reforms within the Chantry went and she would not have authorised all races and sexes becoming ranking clergy rather than just brothers and sisters. Leliana is the one who completely changes the Chantry, so to a large extent it is no longer the Chantry that Drakon instituted. In some ways, the Chantry under her rule may actually be closer to how the faith was immediately after Andraste's death. As Leliana was Ferelden born, initially raised there and then returned there as a Chantry sister after her negative experiences with Majorlaine, I do wonder if she picked up some other native ideas on the faith, say from the Ash Warriors, for example. We never get to learn exactly how their faith in the Maker differed from that of the Chantry but it had to have been different since the codex about it says they do not acknowledge the authority of either the Chantry or their Chant of Light. Since the Ash Warriors were converted by Gelgennig before the existence of the Orlesian Chantry, it would seem the Ash Warrior's faith must have been closer to the original faith of Andraste, particularly considering they came from the same country. It is annoying they largely killed them off at Ostagar so we never really learn what they believed apart from in those brief codex entries.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 21:09:36 GMT
There is zero chance that Justinia; the Divine whose whole platform was reform; was ever going to grant Meredith the right to Annul a Circle in a city known for having one of the most porous Veils in Thedas. She was considering an Exalted March on the whole city. In fact, had the DLC not been cancelled, that is precisely what would have happened. So it doesn't seem that much of a stretch that Justinia would have agreed to the Annulment if Meredith put forward a decent enough case for it. As I've said before, it seems likely that Leliana was sent to Kirkwall in order to check out the situation so Justinia could decide what to do. Since she is advising Elthina to get out whilst she can, it does seem as though the report is not going to be favourable. If the Veil is known to be so thin there it is likely to give her more reason to allow it since Meredith could argue too many demons are getting through and corrupting the mages. It does seem like a stretch because we do not know under which set of circumstances Justinia may have considered sending an Exalted March. It could have simply been the worst case scenario solution sitting under all the other more peaceful ones in case, say, a mage terrorist decided to assassinate the Grand Cleric or something like that. The fact that the Veil is so thin in Kirkwall means that killing hundreds of people in the city; like during an Annulment; is akin to asking for a demonic invasion.
Yes and authorizing Annulments for no good reason would make said reforms all that more difficult to bring about.
Why? Didn't the guy just have a vision of Andraste, exactly like Drakon did? What makes his vision so much more credible beyond him living in the same general area of Thedas where Andraste was born?
In fact, if we accept that his vision was real, then him being Ferelden is irrelevant because the Maker wouldn't care about Ferelden culture.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2020 22:17:04 GMT
Lol, "reform" never actually translates to any meaningful progress or change. What was Justinia ACTUALLY going to do? Institute voluntary sensitivity training?
"Okay, now, if you see a mage practising spells alone at night, what is the appropriate response to that situation?"
"Um... rape them?"
"Close, but not quite! First, it is appropriate to ask them what they're doing outside of the dormitory past curfew. Then, if you don't like their answer, check to make sure that they aren't dating Bastien de Ghyslain, and if they aren't, THEN you can rape them."
And if she was sooooooo concerned about avoiding mass violence in Kirkwall because of the thin veil there (which like, is that even common knowledge? We only know it because of an obscure codex entry), then why didn't she... I dunno, rein Meredith in when she overstepped her bounds and seized control of the city?
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Post by Sonya on Oct 30, 2020 15:08:58 GMT
Neutral or not, though can't understand one thing: the Divine wanted to save only Elthina - the Grand Cleric - and send her army to the city if need be.
What about other peope? Chantry people? Simple citizens? According to the Divine they are just "nothing"? But useless Elthina is very important to be saved. Why is it so crucial to save exactly the Grand Cleric of the city leaving the whole city to its fate? What is the benifit of such action? And later Elthina can be the the Grand Cleric of another city or just return to Kirkwall. How will the whole city, citizens, chantry people look at her?
The Divine acts according to some "written rules" maybe?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2020 15:22:02 GMT
Neutral or not, though can't understand one thing: the Divine wanted to save only Elthina - the Grand Cleric - and send her army to the city if need be. What about other peope? Chantry people? Simple citizens? According to the Divine they are just "nothing"? But useless Elthina is very important to be saved. Why is it so crucial to save exactly the Grand Cleric of the city leaving the whole city to its fate? What is the benifit of such action? And later Elthina can be the the Grand Cleric of another city or just return to Kirkwall. How will the whole city, citizens, chantry people look at her? The Divine acts according to some "written rules" maybe? Because the Grand Cleric matters, politically – the others just nothing: just pawns on the big chessboard in the eyes of the Chantry's leadership. Yes. This is a surprise? We speak about an Exalted March, against the city... (including the citizens of the city) and a danger of the whole city, and the Divine wants to protect the only person who matters – politically. This is the Chantry's value exactly.
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Post by Sonya on Oct 30, 2020 16:11:04 GMT
Because the Grand Cleric matters, politically – the others just nothing: just pawns on the big chessboard in the eyes of the Chantry's leadership. Yes. This is a surprise? We speak about an Exalted March, against the city... (including the citizens of the city) and a danger of the whole city, and the Divine wants to protect the only person who matters – politically. This is the Chantry's value exactly. No, it is not a surprise. Was interested exactly in some "written rules", or something similar. And it seems none excist. I see no benifit in saving GC. No benifit, no understanding at all of such actions. Saved her ass and then what? Politically I mean. That leadership politics, fucking chantry politics - that is understandable, but trying to go deeper into it? The same old bullshit.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 31, 2020 9:29:31 GMT
Was interested exactly in some "written rules", or something similar. And it seems none excist. Elthina isn't just Grand Cleric of Kirkwall but the whole of the Freemarches. Kirkwall is just her base. Thus the Divine would consider it important to ensure her safety because of the impact on he rest of the area if anything should happen to her. Elthina can continue to issue edicts and encourage calm in the other city states whilst the Divine embarks on her Exalted March against Kirkwall. I would imagine the rule is to protect the interests of the Chantry above all else. This is why she never took any action to remove Meredith from her position or instruct her to relinquish control of the city to the secular authorities. Essentially both Elthina and the Divine were in favour of the Templars controlling the city because it emphasised the power of the Chantry over every aspect of citizens lives. If the city seems to have grown worse under the rule of the Templars, simply blame it on the mages and subversives, not on the fact that they shouldn't be involving themselves in secular governance.
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Post by Sonya on Oct 31, 2020 13:10:18 GMT
I would imagine the rule is to protect the interests of the Chantry above all else. Yes, suspected as much. As in previous posts have mentioned: just was interested in some written documents. The fact that others are noobody to the Divine, who is very important figure for everyone (for no reason) and that everyone knows at the same time that the same Divine can kill the whole city (how does Leliana say in some dialogue? "The Divine plays the nations' fates" - or something similar) is simply aweful. Having the Left and the Right hands to deal with others? The Divine is a simple murderer protecting, as you have said interests of the chantry first of all. Simple people mean nothing to her. Such attitude in DA world to a simle murderer in the robe and high hat has always bothered me. It is simply out of understanding. But...no documents - that's what wanted to know. Thank you for the answer.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 31, 2020 15:05:36 GMT
But...no documents - that's what wanted to know Well the Divine would argue that their authority is contained in the Chant of Light. That is what is used to justify everything that they do in the name of Andraste. The fact that there is nothing in the Chant of Light to support their position or it is open to interpretation does not deter them. The Divine doesn't need any other written rules, just insists they are doing the Maker's will. It is the same with Orlesian nobility. They rule by Divine Right so to rebel against their authority is effectively a sin and of course they also see it as licence to do as they please.
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Post by Sonya on Oct 31, 2020 15:19:00 GMT
just insists they are doing the Maker's will One of the main phrases. How long can the Divine "insist" it is Maker's will till people understand finally that it is actual bullshit? Religion poisoned people's minds so deed that they simply can't think already. As Leliana in DAI says " People are sheep". One of the potential Divines. Great.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 23, 2022 14:09:42 GMT
Was interested exactly in some "written rules", or something similar. And it seems none excist. Elthina isn't just Grand Cleric of Kirkwall but the whole of the Freemarches. Kirkwall is just her base. Thus the Divine would consider it important to ensure her safety because of the impact on he rest of the area if anything should happen to her. Elthina can continue to issue edicts and encourage calm in the other city states whilst the Divine embarks on her Exalted March against Kirkwall. I would imagine the rule is to protect the interests of the Chantry above all else. This is why she never took any action to remove Meredith from her position or instruct her to relinquish control of the city to the secular authorities. Essentially both Elthina and the Divine were in favour of the Templars controlling the city because it emphasised the power of the Chantry over every aspect of citizens lives. If the city seems to have grown worse under the rule of the Templars, simply blame it on the mages and subversives, not on the fact that they shouldn't be involving themselves in secular governance.
It's also possible that Justina saw Elthina as her possible successor and that she needed to be saved so she could start training her to become the next Divine.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 23, 2022 18:09:10 GMT
It's also possible that Justina saw Elthina as her possible successor and that she needed to be saved so she could start training her to become the next Divine. I doubt this. Justina was pretty shrewd and she would also know that having an aged Divine before her meant that she ruled long past the time she was fit to do so, being pretty senile towards the end. Now Justina was considered rather young in comparison but also worldly wise and that is why she was also rather effective. Would she really want to train up someone who was considerably older than herself and had been in the Chantry since childhood? Whilst she would back Elthina publicly, she would clearly see that she was not really up to the political acumen needed for a Grand Cleric, let alone a Divine. For all we know, getting her to seek sanctuary in Val Royeaux might have been the prelude to pensioning her off and replacing her with a more astute person once the Exalted March was over.
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