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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 6, 2020 17:14:44 GMT
And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana. Elthina was not powerless. The Templars are allegedly intensely devout. So call together the entire garrison and in front of them she orders Meredith to stand down. What do the Templars do? Support Meredith or the Grand Cleric? Considering many of the Templars were unhappy with her rule and Cullen was beginning to have his doubts about her, this would have been all that was needed. If Meredith turned on Elthina the other Templars would have been well within their rights to strike her down. Elthina could also have asked for the Divine to send a Seeker or more than one to support her action before she took it. That way if Meredith attacked her, the Seeker could neutralise her by boiling the lyrium in her blood (as Cassandra says they can do). There were plenty of options if Elthina wanted Meredith removed but she preferred to leave her in place. Meredith was bad for the city. King Alistair could see it, Orsino could see it, many nobles and Templars could see it but so long as she had the tacit support of Elthina there was nothing the rest of them could do about it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2020 20:52:54 GMT
And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana. Elthina was not powerless. The Templars are allegedly intensely devout. So call together the entire garrison and in front of them she orders Meredith to stand down. What do the Templars do? Support Meredith or the Grand Cleric? Considering many of the Templars were unhappy with her rule and Cullen was beginning to have his doubts about her, this would have been all that was needed. If Meredith turned on Elthina the other Templars would have been well within their rights to strike her down. Elthina could also have asked for the Divine to send a Seeker or more than one to support her action before she took it. That way if Meredith attacked her, the Seeker could neutralise her by boiling the lyrium in her blood (as Cassandra says they can do). There were plenty of options if Elthina wanted Meredith removed but she preferred to leave her in place. Meredith was bad for the city. King Alistair could see it, Orsino could see it, many nobles and Templars could see it but so long as she had the tacit support of Elthina there was nothing the rest of them could do about it. I'd worry that the Templars might turn on her if she tried this, or at least that enough of them would to give Meredith the advantage. I'm fairly confident that the Seeker would have backed Meredith, since Cassandra said they knew some of what was going on in Kirkwall and decided to sign off on it on the (mistaken) impression that Meredith was a net gain for the Chantry. But then, Elthina didn't know the Seekers were tacitly accepting Meredith's abuses. But maybe the idea of Meredith pushing back is why Elthina didn't do this? Maybe she figured Meredith was so far gone she'd have tried to kill Elthina, and that the templars would have backed her? Not that that justifies her in not trying something. Maybe tell Cullen in confidence that she's got concerns, and float the idea that he should take over. She'd want to bring her A-Game to that conversation, though, since Thrask wasn't able to convince Cullen.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 6, 2020 20:58:10 GMT
Meredith was bad for the city (but you can tell that with hindshight), but she was not necessarly bad for the Chantry's geopolitical interests and international power games. On the contrary, she was a key military figure. And the Chantry, in Thedas, is a superpower. Like the Papal State in the middle age. It doesn't think in terms of ethically right of wrong... but politically convenient. And Elthina is a member of the Chantry. Can she go against the fundamental interests of the Chantry? Remove such a succesful, fearsome leader, on her own initiative, without prior, clear, irrefutable authorization from the Divine? no, she probably cannot (although theoretically she could) the serious faults are of the divine, who did not foresee what meredith's fanaticism would lead to. And also the intrinsic organization of the Templar order, which does not provide clear and rapid mechanisms to control and eventually replace knighcommanders unsuitable for their role. Elthina, despite all the formal powers she is invested with, actually counts for nothing. She could do more? Yes... but not so much more. She islike the Secretary General of the United Nations
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 6, 2020 21:48:27 GMT
Elthina was not powerless. The Templars are allegedly intensely devout. So call together the entire garrison and in front of them she orders Meredith to stand down. What do the Templars do? Support Meredith or the Grand Cleric? Considering many of the Templars were unhappy with her rule and Cullen was beginning to have his doubts about her, this would have been all that was needed. If Meredith turned on Elthina the other Templars would have been well within their rights to strike her down. Elthina could also have asked for the Divine to send a Seeker or more than one to support her action before she took it. That way if Meredith attacked her, the Seeker could neutralise her by boiling the lyrium in her blood (as Cassandra says they can do). There were plenty of options if Elthina wanted Meredith removed but she preferred to leave her in place. Meredith was bad for the city. King Alistair could see it, Orsino could see it, many nobles and Templars could see it but so long as she had the tacit support of Elthina there was nothing the rest of them could do about it. I'd worry that the Templars might turn on her if she tried this, or at least that enough of them would to give Meredith the advantage. I'm fairly confident that the Seeker would have backed Meredith, since Cassandra said they knew some of what was going on in Kirkwall and decided to sign off on it on the (mistaken) impression that Meredith was a net gain for the Chantry. But then, Elthina didn't know the Seekers were tacitly accepting Meredith's abuses. But maybe the idea of Meredith pushing back is why Elthina didn't do this? Maybe she figured Meredith was so far gone she'd have tried to kill Elthina, and that the templars would have backed her? Not that that justifies her in not trying something. Maybe tell Cullen in confidence that she's got concerns, and float the idea that he should take over. She'd want to bring her A-Game to that conversation, though, since Thrask wasn't able to convince Cullen. Considering Cullen doesn’t act on a warning of a terrorist threat regarding a certain warmongering abomination, I doubt he would have acted no matter what Elthina said.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2020 21:51:07 GMT
kalreegar Oh, I absolutely agree that the Chantry supported the Templars like Meredith (I often say that). Also, a logical conclusion, that the Seekers probably would agree with the Annulment, and because of it, the Divine would sign Meredith's request. According to them: Kirkwall was a lost case. (The Divine, Elthina read Alrik's request... and while refused it, thought this madman is absolutely fits the Templars... – the mass tranquility's idea is a madness, if they didn't think it is, and the person who requested it, they're guilty or mad – or both. All of them.) riverdaleswhiteflash Yes, Cullen supported Meredith even in the Act3, when he saw Meredith's madness. Cullen compared her to Uldred... just not in that phase, when Uldred lost every humanity of him... YET – as he worded. He questions her mind – but he's not ready to step against her. He needed to see her commander (whom he deeply respected) become an abomination – like her feared blood mages... like Uldred...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2020 22:25:40 GMT
Meredith was bad for the city (but you can tell that with hindshight), but she was not necessarly bad for the Chantry's geopolitical interests and international power games. On the contrary, she was a key military figure. And the Chantry, in Thedas, is a superpower. Like the Papal State in the middle age. It doesn't think in terms of ethically right of wrong... but politically convenient. And Elthina is a member of the Chantry. Can she go against the fundamental interests of the Chantry? Remove such a succesful, fearsome leader, on her own initiative, without prior, clear, irrefutable authorization from the Divine? no, she probably cannot (although theoretically she could) That's the thing: Meredith is not successful. Varric makes clear that her heavy-handed methods were not working. And it doesn't sound like he's talking from hindsight: he seems to have known at the time that Meredith's methods were making things less controlled than they had been. And while I know only half of the people here seem to take Anders's word as evidence of anything, it sounds like he's right when he says that crushing the Mage Underground was just trading her apostate enemies for (even more) maleficarum.Really? Because when she finally goes far enough that Cullen runs out of rationalizations, he immediately tells her she's not the Knight-Commander anymore, and he doesn't seem to doubt that he can do that. And one assumes that if he can do that to his boss, their boss could do it to either of them. I don't think the problem is that there are no rules meant for this situation. I think the problem is that the problem-templars (Meredith, Alrik, etc.) were only following the rules when the rules mandated stuff they wanted to do anyway, and the authority figures to whom the rules actually mattered weren't doing enough to make the rules matter. Considering Cullen doesn’t act on a warning of a terrorist threat regarding a certain warmongering abomination, I doubt he would have acted no matter what Elthina said. He says he's already sent a force to arrest Anders, for what that's worth. As for getting him to turn on Meredith, it wouldn't be easy, and might not have been possible... but we're never going to know, since as far as we can tell she didn't actually try. riverdaleswhiteflash Yes, Cullen supported Meredith even in the Act3, when he saw Meredith's madness. Cullen compared her to Uldred... just not in that phase, when Uldred lost every humanity of him... YET – as he worded. He questions her mind – but he's not ready to step against her. He needed to see her commander (whom he deeply respected) become an abomination – like her feared blood mages... like Uldred... *video snipped* Now that I've actually played through that sequence, it looks like what he really needed was to see evidence of her madness he couldn't simply explain away. So a whole lot of lives might have been saved if only Elthina had gathered such evidence and presented it to him. (Or they might not have, but she was wrong not to try.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 6, 2020 22:31:57 GMT
Considering Cullen doesn’t act on a warning of a terrorist threat regarding a certain warmongering abomination, I doubt he would have acted no matter what Elthina said. He says he's already sent a force to arrest Anders, for what that's worth. As for getting him to turn on Meredith, it wouldn't be easy, and might not have been possible... but we're never going to know, since as far as we can tell she didn't actually try. Where does Cullen say this? I just remember him saying he’ll pass it on in a kind of dismissive way.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2020 22:37:39 GMT
He says he's already sent a force to arrest Anders, for what that's worth. As for getting him to turn on Meredith, it wouldn't be easy, and might not have been possible... but we're never going to know, since as far as we can tell she didn't actually try. Where does Cullen say this? I just remember him saying he’ll pass it on in a kind of dismissive way. We're thinking of the same conversation. I misremembered. (Sorry.) Bear in mind I haven't actually done a pro-templar run of DA2 yet.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2020 22:45:30 GMT
Where does Cullen say this? I just remember him saying he’ll pass it on in a kind of dismissive way. We're thinking of the same conversation. I misremembered. (Sorry.) Bear in mind I haven't actually done a pro-templar run of DA2 yet. He says, they tried, but Anders was not in his clinic. So: he can't do anything... Anders disappeared, rofl.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2020 23:05:37 GMT
We're thinking of the same conversation. I misremembered. (Sorry.) Bear in mind I haven't actually done a pro-templar run of DA2 yet. He says, they tried, but Anders was not in his clinic. So: he can't do anything... Anders disappeared, rofl. That actually does sound a lot like what I remember... maybe you get a different result based on whether or not you have Anders in your party at the time?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2020 23:33:13 GMT
He says, they tried, but Anders was not in his clinic. So: he can't do anything... Anders disappeared, rofl. That actually does sound a lot like what I remember... maybe you get a different result based on whether or not you have Anders in your party at the time? I found the whole.
I think, it's the same: no matters Anders with Hawke or not. He just asks Hawke, what s/he's doing.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2020 23:40:20 GMT
That actually does sound a lot like what I remember... maybe you get a different result based on whether or not you have Anders in your party at the time? I found the whole.
I think, it's the same: no matters Anders with Hawke or not. He just asks Hawke, what s/he's doing. No, it definitely changed between those two. With Anders in the party Cullen doesn't say much, but without Anders in the party, he freely admits there's an active manhunt for the guy. Maybe Cullen's got people looking for him either way, but doesn't want to admit that in front of Anders himself?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 0:27:46 GMT
I found the whole.
I think, it's the same: no matters Anders with Hawke or not. He just asks Hawke, what s/he's doing. No, it definitely changed between those two. With Anders he doesn't say much, but without Anders in the party, he freely admits there's an active manhunt for the guy. Maybe Cullen's got people looking for him either way, but doesn't want to admit that in front of Anders himself? Oh, yes, I thought this is the next question. And I suppose Cullen feared Anders... haha, there's no reason to not question him... or what he was waiting for?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 0:33:04 GMT
Also it's interesting, that right after Anders' quest at the Gallows, Cullen says to Hawke (not conversation, but if you click on him), that Alrik's plan was a mercy compared what will come, and also says, he hopes, Hawke will support the Templars... It was before Anders' act. I went back to the game, before my Hawke did anything with Anders' quest. So: Meredith's plan was not a secret – and it was nothing about what Anders plans. (Sadly, it not on the video.)
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Quickpaw on Oct 7, 2020 0:50:13 GMT
The whole final battle I was all like: Where's that noble coalition that banded together to resist Meredith? Also considering how much pull could be employed by a lesser Revered Mother (Petrice, that bitch), if Elthina wanted to she could have rallied the entire city and ousted Meredith. But all Elthina could see as a threat was someone trying to challenge the status quo in Orsino.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 7, 2020 2:08:39 GMT
No, it definitely changed between those two. With Anders he doesn't say much, but without Anders in the party, he freely admits there's an active manhunt for the guy. Maybe Cullen's got people looking for him either way, but doesn't want to admit that in front of Anders himself? Oh, yes, I thought this is the next question. And I suppose Cullen feared Anders... haha, there's no reason to not question him... or what he was waiting for? The short story about Anders's merger with Justice says that Anders tore through a squad of templars (and ate some of them) right after the merger. I wonder how much of that Cullen knew of?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 2:23:25 GMT
Oh, yes, I thought this is the next question. And I suppose Cullen feared Anders... haha, there's no reason to not question him... or what he was waiting for? The short story about Anders's merger with Justice says that Anders tore through a squad of templars (and ate some of them) right after the merger. I wonder how much of that Cullen knew of? (He didn't eat them, this is a big fat bullshit rofl, but yes, probably tasted blood – there was blood and flesh everywhere, even on him, probably bitten them or something, as he raged – and he was horrified and confused when "woke up". It was a massacre. He tore them apart. Not another logical explanation for it.) I'm sure Cullen didn't know about his massacre. Why he would... And also: this "feared him" was a joke. Yes, Anders is dangerous. But Cullen didn't know about how much dangerous. And even if he knew about it, wouldn't his duty to stop such a dangerous "abomination"? "Oh, sorry, Knight-Commander, I fear the mages, especially the abominations, I just like this uniform..." Yes? Eh, I don't think Cullen is like this. And don't forget: behind him, was an army... This is just a lame plot armour... Let's find an explanation... Investigation? Let him work on his plan, and we will catch him, when he behaves suspiciously? Why they wait for it? Or... Who knows... Meredith wrote an apology letter to Gascard duPuis, and punished Emeric for the Investigation... perhaps Cullen feared Meredith, not Anders...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2020 3:27:10 GMT
No, it definitely changed between those two. With Anders he doesn't say much, but without Anders in the party, he freely admits there's an active manhunt for the guy. Maybe Cullen's got people looking for him either way, but doesn't want to admit that in front of Anders himself? Oh, yes, I thought this is the next question. And I suppose Cullen feared Anders... haha, there's no reason to not question him... or what he was waiting for? I wish they had a scene where Anders is confronted about his Act 3 plan where say Hawks and others try to bring Anders in or question him leading to a fight where he escapes. The Templars talk about searching for him, but are unsuccessful until his terrorist act. That allows him to do his thing for the plot but without everyone being bludgeoned with the Idiot Ball.
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 14:21:07 GMT
I imagine that from Justinia's viewpoint, Meredith served a twofold purpose. First, she was a stabilizing presence in an important city that was becoming an hotbed of demonic activity and magical terrorism. This freed her from having to look at the East and instead allowed her to focus her attention solely on the reforms she wished to pursue. Second, if need be, she could even use Meredith's harshness as evidence of why the Circles needed reform in the first place.
Of course, no could have predicted how much Anders and Meredith would wet the bed.
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 14:25:06 GMT
The whole final battle I was all like: Where's that noble coalition that banded together to resist Meredith? Also considering how much pull could be employed by a lesser Revered Mother (Petrice, that bitch), if Elthina wanted to she could have rallied the entire city and ousted Meredith. But all Elthina could see as a threat was someone trying to challenge the status quo in Orsino. Elthina's issue with Orsino was that he was doing exactly the opposite of what she wished by rallying the city. Elthina didn't want Kirkwall tearing itself apart in a civil war between Meredith's supporters and her opponents. Regardless of who won, that would lead to thousands of deaths and attention from the Divine.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 14:34:37 GMT
I imagine that from Justinia's viewpoint, Meredith served a twofold purpose. First, she was a stabilizing presence in an important city that was becoming an hotbed of demonic activity and magical terrorism. This freed her from having to look at the East and instead focus her attention solely on the reforms she wished to pursue. Second, if need be, she could even use Meredith's harshness as evidence of why the Circles needed reform in the first place. Of course, no could have predicted how much Anders and Meredith would wet the bed. Oh, yes, Justinia was a politician. And sure, if she thought in this way, as you wrote, that very much justified Anders.
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 14:38:10 GMT
I imagine that from Justinia's viewpoint, Meredith served a twofold purpose. First, she was a stabilizing presence in an important city that was becoming an hotbed of demonic activity and magical terrorism. This freed her from having to look at the East and instead focus her attention solely on the reforms she wished to pursue. Second, if need be, she could even use Meredith's harshness as evidence of why the Circles needed reform in the first place. Of course, no could have predicted how much Anders and Meredith would wet the bed. Oh, yes, Justinia was a politician. And sure, if she thought in this way, as you wrote, that very much justified Anders. Bush was a politician so that very much justified Osama Bin Laden.
Terrorism is NEVER justified. Period.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 14:40:44 GMT
The whole final battle I was all like: Where's that noble coalition that banded together to resist Meredith? Also considering how much pull could be employed by a lesser Revered Mother (Petrice, that bitch), if Elthina wanted to she could have rallied the entire city and ousted Meredith. But all Elthina could see as a threat was someone trying to challenge the status quo in Orsino. Elthina's issue with Orsino was that he was doing exactly the opposite of what she wished which was to rally the city. Elthina didn't want Kirkwall tearing itself apart in a civil war between Meredith's supporters and her opponents. Regardless of who won, that would lead to thousands of deaths and attention from the Divine.
Opposite: Elthina created that, when she sent Orsino and Meredith both back to the Circle, without statement: that Meredith is the Knight Commander, but a viscount should govern the city. Without this statement, she strengthened Meredith's position over Kirkwall, not just the mages. With this she declared, the Chantry and the Templars has every right over the whole city. In this point the nobles asked my Hawke take the position, if and offered their swords. Anders was quicker, of course...
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2020 14:46:25 GMT
Oh, yes, Justinia was a politician. And sure, if she thought in this way, as you wrote, that very much justified Anders. Bush was a politician so that very much justified Osama Bin Laden.
Terrorism is NEVER justified. Period.
That "Bush and Osama Bin Laden" thing is a big fat bullshit here. I said, Justinia is a politician, and if she's thinking in this way, as you and others also said: Justinia and the Seekers were able to sacrifice Kirkwall mages, or if it needed, the Kirkwall itself. It's a genocide... Meredith prepared to a genocide, and it was not secret, Karras and even Cullen said openly. So: the Chantry can be Justified? The genocide can be justified?
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Mithras
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 14:47:05 GMT
Elthina's issue with Orsino was that he was doing exactly the opposite of what she wished which was to rally the city. Elthina didn't want Kirkwall tearing itself apart in a civil war between Meredith's supporters and her opponents. Regardless of who won, that would lead to thousands of deaths and attention from the Divine.
Opposite: Elthina created that, when she sent Orsino and Meredith both back to the Circle, without statement: that Meredith is the Knight Commander, but a viscount should govern the city. Without this statement, she strengthened Meredith's position over Kirkwall, not just the mages. With this she declared, the Chantry and the Templars has every right over the whole city. You should take this opportunity to work out a bit because that was a huge stretch you just made.
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