Mithras
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:41:50 GMT
That's not two equal evil. The one is a systematic opression. The other is one act against that. Nothing equal about them. Yeah, yeah, Osama Bin Laden thought he was a freedom fighter too.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 6, 2019 0:04:18 GMT
That's because the game needs to account for the possibility that Karras is dead. Considering he's one step behind Alrik, a lot of people are going to kill him when they get the chance. But the fact remains that Hawke can directly hear from Karras that Meredith has sent for the Annulment, and Anders can be in the party when that happens. Just as Anders might not be in the party. Now what? The game could have easily have him say "My sources inside the Gallows tell me that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment from the Divine herself" yes he never does. Or she sincerely believes that the situation is not as bad as it seems and Leliana considers that the Resolutionists are a bigger threat than Meredith.
There's no lie implied in any of this. Again, two wrongs don't make a right. Anders just decided for the whole Circle that they were all going to become unwilling martyrs in the name of freedom. At least Meredith had been driven mad by the Blight at that point, what's his excuse?
Furthermore, the only thing Anders proved is that the system works because while Elthina was alive, she was keeping Meredith's more murderous tendencies in check as she was supposed to. I said already. As hawke could know if from Karras as source, Anders can know it from another source. It was a known thing. The fact, that Karras speaks about it openly, proved, no matter, Hawke killed him or not, or Anders was in the party when Karras spoke about it, or not. If Elthina "sincerely" thinks, there's nothing wrong, Elthina is the stupidest thing in the whole Kirkwall. But she knows it. She speaks about with Hawke. Nothing equal about this "two wrong". Meredith has no excuse. Not the blighted red lyrium made her mad criminal, she was mad criminal in the Act1 as well. With Elthina's agreement. The whole explosion proved, the system doesn't work. Also: Elthina never made Meredith less murderous. She just helped his crimes to keep behind the closed doors.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 6, 2019 0:05:10 GMT
That's not two equal evil. The one is a systematic opression. The other is one act against that. Nothing equal about them. Yeah, yeah, Osama Bin Laden thought he was a freedom fighter too. That's pure bullshit, and you know well.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 6, 2019 0:53:55 GMT
That's because the game needs to account for the possibility that Karras is dead. Considering he's one step behind Alrik, a lot of people are going to kill him when they get the chance. But the fact remains that Hawke can directly hear from Karras that Meredith has sent for the Annulment, and Anders can be in the party when that happens. Just as Anders might not be in the party. Now what? The game could have easily have him say "My sources inside the Gallows tell me that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment from the Divine herself" yes he never does. Or she sincerely believes that the situation is not as bad as it seems and Leliana considers that the Resolutionists are a bigger threat than Meredith.
There's no lie implied in any of this.
Again, two wrongs don't make a right. Anders just decided for the whole Circle that they were all going to become unwilling martyrs in the name of freedom. At least Meredith had been driven mad by the Blight at that point, what's his excuse?
Furthermore, the only thing Anders proved is that the system works because while Elthina was alive, she was keeping Meredith's more murderous tendencies in check as she was supposed to.
If he's not in the party then someone who was tells him about it. If Elthina is so stupid as to believe that everything is fine even as her own direct subordinates have spent the better part of a decade flouting Chantry law, then that is all the more reason that she is unfit for her position. Leliana's lack of concern over Meredith's law-breaking is just another example of how Elthina is utterly failing in her duty to control her subordinates. And Meredith had already decided that the Circle needed to be wiped out even before Anders involved himself. His plan never would have worked if Meredith had just executed him instead of Annulling an unrelated Circle. Your "two wrongs don't make a right" logic clearly doesn't apply to Meredith. And Elthina clearly wasn't keeping Meredith's impulses in check as proven by the fact that Meredith went over Elthina's head in the first place. What Anders proved is that Templars cannot be trusted with life and death power over others. He proved that they cannot be trusted to obey their own laws. That's why at least half the Circles revolted on the spot when they heard what Meredith had done. The only alternative at that point was to allow a repeat of the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 6, 2019 0:59:20 GMT
Honestly, what she SHOULD have done is actually listened to the Divine's agent and gotten the hell out of dodge. As was directly proven, her absence was no improvement over her assassination, which triggered the insanity that followed.
SOMETHING was seriously wrong with the Gallows' system of checks and balances, no matter which side of the Mage rights debate you fall on but Elthina refused to upset the established balance of power (IE Meredith free to do whatever she pleased without consequence) rather than push for a better solution.
Being silent in the face of atrocities is to side with the aggressor. In this case there really was no middle ground.
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2019 2:39:10 GMT
Only idiots or psychopaths think differently.
This is what you think of people who disagree with you? Wow.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2019 3:08:47 GMT
Only idiots or psychopaths think differently.
This is what you think of people who disagree with you? Wow.
When it comes to people saying "Killing hundreds of innocent people is okay under certain circumstances", then yes.
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2019 3:26:26 GMT
This is what you think of people who disagree with you? Wow.
When it comes to people saying "Killing hundreds of innocent people is okay under certain circumstances", then yes. I guess I keep forgetting how inflexible you are. Hope you are never in a situation where you have to make a choice like that. Something may not be "okay" but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes necessary.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2019 3:42:15 GMT
When it comes to people saying "Killing hundreds of innocent people is okay under certain circumstances", then yes. I guess I keep forgetting how inflexible you are. Hope you are never in a situation where you have to make a choice like that. Something may not be "okay" but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes necessary.
Forgive me for actually having morals. Things like what Anders did is never necessary either.
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2019 3:50:59 GMT
Forgive me for actually having morals. Most people have morals. How much are you willing to sacrifice to abide by them 100% of the time?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 11, 2019 15:34:11 GMT
The plot demanded Elthina to be neutral. It doesn't matter anyway. She wouldn't have been able to stop Anders from doing what he did.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 11, 2019 18:35:26 GMT
Still, I wish, she had used her influence to make a dire situation better. She was the only one, that could send Meredith back to the Gallows 'like a good girl' (I think, those were Elthinas words?). And to make the templars not punish Orsino for speaking out in public. She should have used that influence, she still had to try to make peace between mages and templars. Nobody knew by that time, that Meredith was under the influence of the idol and even with the idol, she still obviously respected Elthina. I know, the game has to have a neutral Elthina, but tbh, it would have been better, if Mother Petrice had just assassinated Elthina and became the new grand cleric - and totally in line with Meredith. The end result would have been the same, but more believable storywise. No one would have even tried to argue with Petrice about mage rights, seeing what a hard liner she is, thus making room for the mage rebellion. Don't know, but it seemed a wasted opportunity since Petrice was a great adversary tbh and imo even a better one than Meredith.
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Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 12, 2019 5:42:29 GMT
Still, I wish, she had used her influence to make a dire situation better. She was the only one, that could send Meredith back to the Gallows 'like a good girl' (I think, those were Elthinas words?). And to make the templars not punish Orsino for speaking out in public. That scene and how it's shot actually made me suspicious the first time I played that she was a mage or demon with how easily she seemed able to force Meredith to back down. I mean good grief! That staredown!
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 12, 2019 5:44:13 GMT
Still, I wish, she had used her influence to make a dire situation better. She was the only one, that could send Meredith back to the Gallows 'like a good girl' (I think, those were Elthinas words?). And to make the templars not punish Orsino for speaking out in public. That scene and how it's shot actually made me suspicious the first time I played that she was a mage or demon with how easily she seemed able to force Meredith to back down. I mean good grief! That staredown! Too bad she didn't use that to make Meredith obey the laws she was supposed to be enforcing.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Dec 22, 2019 20:33:41 GMT
Going to get in before Catilina explodes all over the thread (I tease). No, she did not do the right thing. Her reason for doing so was predicated on the idea that the issue was solely about mage freedom. It was widely acknowledged that Kirkwall's circle was more extreme than most, with not only Meredith exerting ever tighter control over the mages, widespread abuse of the mages that was far beyond the typical templar maintenance of order, but also her attempted influence over Kirkwall politics. I don't say that Elthina should have "sided" with the mages, since I don't think that was likely to happen. However, I think there should have been serious discussions with the grand clerics about replacing Meredith with a knight-commander who wasn't so volatile and had more control over their subordinates. Even giving Meredith the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know about the abuses, it doesn't matter. As knight-commander of Kirkwall's circle, it was her duty to know, so she was ultimately responsible for stopping it. That she either didn't know or didn't care means that she was incompetent, ineffectual, indifferent, or all of the above, any one of which would demand her replacement.
My problem with Meredith in Act 3 was the fact that she wouldn't let Kirkwall elect a new viscount and was basically ruling the city-state as a dictator. Which is NOT her job or her duty. Her job was to protect the mages and the people from the dangers of magic and she failed spectacular there too. Elthina should have stepped in and either removed Meredith from her post. Cullen was strict but he could be reasoned with at least.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 22, 2019 20:41:06 GMT
Going to get in before Catilina explodes all over the thread (I tease). No, she did not do the right thing. Her reason for doing so was predicated on the idea that the issue was solely about mage freedom. It was widely acknowledged that Kirkwall's circle was more extreme than most, with not only Meredith exerting ever tighter control over the mages, widespread abuse of the mages that was far beyond the typical templar maintenance of order, but also her attempted influence over Kirkwall politics. I don't say that Elthina should have "sided" with the mages, since I don't think that was likely to happen. However, I think there should have been serious discussions with the grand clerics about replacing Meredith with a knight-commander who wasn't so volatile and had more control over their subordinates. Even giving Meredith the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know about the abuses, it doesn't matter. As knight-commander of Kirkwall's circle, it was her duty to know, so she was ultimately responsible for stopping it. That she either didn't know or didn't care means that she was incompetent, ineffectual, indifferent, or all of the above, any one of which would demand her replacement.
My problem with Meredith in Act 3 was the fact that she wouldn't let Kirkwall elect a new viscount and was basically ruling the city-state as a dictator. Which is NOT her job or her duty. Her job was to protect the mages and the people from the dangers of magic and she failed spectacular there too. Elthina should have stepped in and either removed Meredith from her post. Cullen was strict but he could be reasoned with at least.
It's also worth noting that even the supposedly pro-mage Justinia is never shown having a problem with Meredith usurping the Viscount's office like that, and there's no way she didn't know about it considering how closely the Chantry was watching Kirkwall.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 20, 2020 0:17:34 GMT
My problem with Meredith in Act 3 was the fact that she wouldn't let Kirkwall elect a new viscount and was basically ruling the city-state as a dictator. Which is NOT her job or her duty. Her job was to protect the mages and the people from the dangers of magic and she failed spectacular there too. Elthina should have stepped in and either removed Meredith from her post. Cullen was strict but he could be reasoned with at least.
It's also worth noting that even the supposedly pro-mage Justinia is never shown having a problem with Meredith usurping the Viscount's office like that, and there's no way she didn't know about it considering how closely the Chantry was watching Kirkwall.
Very true.
Kirkwall had been causing trouble for the Chantry for years even before Justina was the Divine and even before the events of DAO, when Viscount Dumar's predecessor tried to kick the Templars out of the city for reasons according to Bran in DA2 this excuse of the world "not allowing another Kirkwall" was used by the villain in that is the reason why they tried to kill Divine Beatrix in Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker. Even though the anime doesn't explain the timeline very well and BioWare had to have Cassandra finally set the record straight in DAI.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 21, 2020 13:29:28 GMT
In-universe, Anders probably doesn't even know that Meredith sent for the right of Annulment since he never even mentions it and, by God, Anders never shuts up about what he perceives to be the "wrongs" of the Chantry. At any rate, it's a huge assumption to make that Justinia would countenance a Knight Commander going over the head of a Grand Cleric and would just sign off on wholesale purge. One should certainly not attempt to set off the hypothetical purge early based on such flimsy evidence.
And when did Elthina lie to Leliana?
Two wrongs don't make a right. And, again, Anders' convictions about the "evilness" of the Chantry does not grant him the right to decide when and how the mages of Kirkwall should die. He is not documenting an atrocity in order to make sure the world knows, he is committing it.
That's because the game needs to account for the possibility that Karras is dead. Considering he's one step behind Alrik, a lot of people are going to kill him when they get the chance. But the fact remains that Hawke can directly hear from Karras that Meredith has sent for the Annulment, and Anders can be in the party when that happens. Elthina told Hawke to tell Leliana that the situation wasn't as bad as it seemed. She lied by omission about Meredith's extensive crimes that were directly responsible for the current situation. We know this because Leliana never mentions Meredith's crimes; she's focused only on the Resolutionists. Meredith's convictions about the presence of "blood mages" does not grant her the right to decide that an entire Circle needs to be wiped out on a whim. Meredith didn't have to Annul the Circle in response to Anders's crime. There was absolutely nothing stopping her from taking him into custody and executing him for what he did, especially since she knew that he was never a resident of the Gallows. The Annulment of the Gallows was at least as much of an atrocity as the chantry explosion, and it is one that Meredith chose to commit. That is was Anders meant when he said that the world needs to see that the Circle is not a solution. They both committed an atrocity. His was committed for the purpose of exposing hers. Indeed the only time as I understand their rules that templars are allowed to take action without permission is if a mage is possessed and has become an abomination such as if they fail their harrowing. And I think they're only alloewd t od othat as a containing the problem cenario to prevent the situartion spreading out of control such as what hapened in the Ferelden circle during DAO the only problem there was I think for the templars in that scenario was it kind of spread so quickly that they couldn't control it so a complete Anulment was potentially necessary there. I say potentially as I think it's likely he'd have got permission to carry it out So in that sense in Gregoir's case he was right to ask for permission to do it because he was following the rules he and his fellow templars are sworn to follow even though it wasn't required in the end thanks to the warden. Meredith on the other hand was not justified in what she was doing though her mind had gone cuckoo thanks to the red lyrium.
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Post by Mithras on Jan 21, 2020 19:14:03 GMT
No one has ever argued that Meredith wasn't absolutely out of her mind and I don't think anyone ever will.
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Post by Mithras on Jan 21, 2020 23:01:45 GMT
With that being said, she did have a point when she called for the Gallows to be searched top to bottom. I replayed the Annulment tonight, siding with the Templars, and as soon I entered, I was knee deep in blood mages and demons who completely ignored all the mages around to make a beeline for me.
Now, I'm not saying that there were definitely blood mages hiding amidst the Circle's population...but this really is a LOT of demons and blood mages for a Circle supposedly free of corruption.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2020 23:22:12 GMT
With that being said, she did have a point when she called for the Gallows to be searched top to bottom. I replayed the Annulment tonight, siding with the Templars, and as soon I entered, I was knee deep in blood mages and demons who completely ignored all the mages around to make a beeline for me. Now, I'm not saying that there were definitely blood mages hiding amidst the Circle's population...but this really is a LOT of demons and blood mages for a Circle supposedly free of corruption. Meredith had no one little point. She's just a mad tyrant, and was even before the red lyrium. Such a corrupted, criminal prison guard never has any point, and everyone who supports, is criminal as well, like Elthina. She just jeopardized the whole city with her madness. If the mages used blood magic against her, they were justified. If such captives have any duty, it is the escape, and the sabotage. The blood magic is very good against the Templars. Also: the Chantry uses blood magic against the mages...
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 22, 2020 3:30:57 GMT
With that being said, she did have a point when she called for the Gallows to be searched top to bottom. I replayed the Annulment tonight, siding with the Templars, and as soon I entered, I was knee deep in blood mages and demons who completely ignored all the mages around to make a beeline for me. Now, I'm not saying that there were definitely blood mages hiding amidst the Circle's population...but this really is a LOT of demons and blood mages for a Circle supposedly free of corruption. I agree with Meredith that the tower should have been searched and checked and in the en dbefore the final battle didn' tOrsino offer to help Meredith do just that? It ma yhave been a while sinc eI last played DA2 but I do remember Orsino''s offer to help her check
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 3:50:24 GMT
With that being said, she did have a point when she called for the Gallows to be searched top to bottom. I replayed the Annulment tonight, siding with the Templars, and as soon I entered, I was knee deep in blood mages and demons who completely ignored all the mages around to make a beeline for me. Now, I'm not saying that there were definitely blood mages hiding amidst the Circle's population...but this really is a LOT of demons and blood mages for a Circle supposedly free of corruption. I agree with Meredith that the tower should have been searched and checked and in the en dbefore the final battle didn' tOrsino offer to help Meredith do just that? It ma yhave been a while sinc eI last played DA2 but I do remember Orsino''s offer to help her check Considering that Orsino was the ringleader of the malificarum, it’s probably better that Meredith not accept his help.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 22, 2020 4:05:31 GMT
I agree with Meredith that the tower should have been searched and checked and in the en dbefore the final battle didn' tOrsino offer to help Meredith do just that? It ma yhave been a while sinc eI last played DA2 but I do remember Orsino''s offer to help her check Considering that Orsino was the ringleader of the malificarum, it’s probably better that Meredith not accept his help. H ewasn't the ringleaderhe only used Blood magic himself because he was getting desperate and knew Meredith was going to kill him anyway.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 4:05:47 GMT
I agree with Meredith that the tower should have been searched and checked and in the en dbefore the final battle didn' tOrsino offer to help Meredith do just that? It ma yhave been a while sinc eI last played DA2 but I do remember Orsino''s offer to help her check Considering that Orsino was the ringleader of the malificarum, it’s probably better that Meredith not accept his help. Meredith was a monster, remember?
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