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Post by Sonya on Jan 22, 2020 15:19:58 GMT
In truth you could aim that same question at the templars seeing as they were investigating him as early on in tha tinvestigation is when you meet this emeric or whatever his name was. Plus I doubt Orsino was lying because you don' tgetto be a first enchanter without an element of respec tfrom both sides and by that I mean not just ewll liked among his fellow mages but respected by the templars as well. You'll only earn that respect by being rtuthful and damiting mistakes if and when you make them and of course being generally well liked by everyone. Also Orsino used cordpses not mages that were still alive when he transformed from what I remember. Granted him giving into the Blood magic was wrong but I can understand why he did it he was desperate as he knew he was losing the fight. Desperation can make people do bad things. actually think have answered that by writing to Catilina. Plus, as we see: templars investigated, but not good enough (did not do their job properly), so Orsino continued. But I can agree with that statement Desperation can make people do bad things Not only bad,, but even stiuid and useless - remember what Shepard did after failed Thessia mission? Took a HP and made some shots even it was clear - it's useless. Only if I understand why someone does something, it does not mena I support it (like with Solas e.g.) In real world it works the same way. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 15:20:21 GMT
If he truly cared, he would have helped the Templars stop him regardless of how Meredith would have acted. But instead, his opinions are made clear: He was fascinated and fully supported Quentin's work, as well as willingly shrugging off the deaths of innocent to protect himself and his kind. No, helping a serial killer is not an understandable mistake. Again as I asid above I don't think Orsino knew that Quentin was a serial kliller And as I pointed out with evidence, there is no chance he didn't know Quentin was a serial killer.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 22, 2020 15:23:46 GMT
To both of you saying that war excuses the deaths of civilians: it does not mean at all that it is a good thing. How can that be a good thing at all? Te point of the statement - it is reality you can't avoid. A fact. Any war means deaths. A grim reality, yes. |
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Post by fylimar on Jan 22, 2020 15:25:04 GMT
That Harvester thing do bother me btw. According to the Golems of Amargant dlc the Harvester is not something you just do with a bit of blood magic. I wish, the writers had acknowledged that and had Orsino turn into something else. What happened to good old abominations? Why did they have to go flashy and disrupt their own lore? About how much Orsino knows:I always thought, that he knew, Quentin did research about forbidden magic, but I was of the opinion, he didn't know, that his pal is actually killing people. But he should have stopped Quentin regardless, he knew, the research was dangerous. There's no way that Orsino didn't know that Quentin was killing people. Quentin was sending Orsino letters about how he was making progress, and with the kind of thing Quentin was doing that could only mean he was getting bodies to work with. That combined with knowing the serial killer was a mage for years due to the investigations Hawke and Eneric did, the correlation was obvious. Also, the letter from Orsino to Quentin even sufggests he was in favor of the work. My dear friend,
I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!
Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.
Your friend and colleague,
Odragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_A_Letter_from_the_Circle Which proofs exactly, what I have written, nothing more, nothing less. I did say, that he must be aware of Quentin doing something dangerous and that he should have stopped his friend, maybe without Meredith help if he was afraid of consequences for the circle. But apart from Emeric, nobody even believed that a serial killer was around. All the disappearances of the women up to Leandra were explained away, even after Hawke found some bloody remains. I can't see Quentin telling anyone how he obtained material for his experiments. He could have gone all Frankenstein and just payed someone for fresh bodies, wouldn't have been too strange for Kirkwall. The point is, that it was left open to every players imagination, how much Orsino was involved. |
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Gileadan
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Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 22, 2020 15:26:09 GMT
If he truly cared, he would have helped the Templars stop him regardless of how Meredith would have acted. But instead, his opinions are made clear: He was fascinated and fully supported Quentin's work, as well as willingly shrugging off the deaths of innocent to protect himself and his kind. No, helping a serial killer is not an understandable mistake. Again as I asid above I don't think Orsino knew that Quentin was a serial kliller Why wouldn't he know? The letter makes it clear that Quentin shared his research results with him. "Wow cool, so you chopped up a bunch of women and sewed their parts back together and it walked at talked afterwards? Great work man, that's such valuable research!"... while women go missing in Kirkwall. How could he not know? And their cooperation must have been going on for a while, or Orsino's letter would not have referred to the usual spot.
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Post by Mithras on Jan 22, 2020 16:15:29 GMT
Eh, I think it's possible that Orsino didn't know exactly what Quentin was doing. I'm sure he wanted to believe only the best from his friend.
With that being said, it was still his duty to report that there was a blood mage at large in the city. Especially a blood mage whose area of study involved sewing flesh together in order to "reverse" death.
That has more red flags attached to it than a Soviet Union military parade.
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Post by Mithras on Jan 22, 2020 16:46:24 GMT
that is the point. All we see it "demon-summonng". Who did that? Templars? No, mages are responsable for everything we see: all kinds of demons, and they become abominations. Do you justify that kind of protection of yourself? Even if innocents will die, including children? Demons do not care who is in front of them. Oh, "innocent children would die" argument... This is a war. The Templars prepared to kill everyone. Including innocent children in the Circle – nobody cares. Also: not every mage summoned demons, shades and became an abomination. Meredith didn't want to protect the city. She was an abomination. You blame the mages because they tried to protect themselves. Lol, so you're cool with turning mages from "victims of an unjustified pogrom simply trying to defend themselves" into "evil monsters that the Templars have to kill because they're releasing demons and turning themselves into flesh golems liable to kill a few dozen thousands of people" I mean, if you're cool with them putting themselves in the wrong, that's up to you. But the second mages started summoning demons, is the second Meredith became the lesser evil.
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N7
Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 22, 2020 17:18:33 GMT
There's no way that Orsino didn't know that Quentin was killing people. Quentin was sending Orsino letters about how he was making progress, and with the kind of thing Quentin was doing that could only mean he was getting bodies to work with. That combined with knowing the serial killer was a mage for years due to the investigations Hawke and Eneric did, the correlation was obvious. Also, the letter from Orsino to Quentin even sufggests he was in favor of the work. My dear friend,
I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!
Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.
Your friend and colleague,
Odragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_A_Letter_from_the_CircleWhich proofs exactly, what I have written, nothing more, nothing less. I did say, that he must be aware of Quentin doing something dangerous and that he should have stopped his friend, maybe without Meredith help if he was afraid of consequences for the circle. But apart from Emeric, nobody even believed that a serial killer was around. All the disappearances of the women up to Leandra were explained away, even after Hawke found some bloody remains. I can't see Quentin telling anyone how he obtained material for his experiments. He could have gone all Frankenstein and just payed someone for fresh bodies, wouldn't have been too strange for Kirkwall. The point is, that it was left open to every players imagination, how much Orsino was involved. Exactly ity's open t ointerpretation as to how much Orsino knwe imo he masy have suspected Quentin was up to something but he had no proof plus in DAI Morrigan does say to our Inquisitor knowledge alon edoes no harm it's how you use that knowledge tha tmakes it good or bad. B ythat I mean Orsino ma yhave known what Quentin was studying but he may not have known what Quentin was doing with that knowledge.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 17:23:01 GMT
Which proofs exactly, what I have written, nothing more, nothing less. I did say, that he must be aware of Quentin doing something dangerous and that he should have stopped his friend, maybe without Meredith help if he was afraid of consequences for the circle. But apart from Emeric, nobody even believed that a serial killer was around. All the disappearances of the women up to Leandra were explained away, even after Hawke found some bloody remains. I can't see Quentin telling anyone how he obtained material for his experiments. He could have gone all Frankenstein and just payed someone for fresh bodies, wouldn't have been too strange for Kirkwall. The point is, that it was left open to every players imagination, how much Orsino was involved. Exactly ity's open t ointerpretation as to how much Orsino knwe imo he masy have suspected Quentin was up to something but he had no proof plus in DAI Morrigan does say to our Inquisitor knowledge alon edoes no harm it's how you use that knowledge tha tmakes it good or bad. B ythat I mean Orsino ma yhave known what Quentin was studying but he may not have known what Quentin was doing with that knowledge. Oh yeah, he didn’t know if it was just theory or not or had any proof. That’s why he compliments what Quentin did after he was told the results. :rolleyes: |
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 19:15:46 GMT
Yeah it sounsd in that instance as though he was rtying to protect himself and his fellow mages unnecessarily in that instance as he wasn't sure of Merediths intentions o rhow she would react if she found out. Especially given her tendency to overreact. So like I said, Orsino didn't give a damn about the citizens of Kirkwall so long as it couldn't be linked back to the mages. He defended Kirkwall, what was his prison, not home.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 22, 2020 19:15:55 GMT
Orsino really had no good options. If Meredith finds out about the blood mages on her own, she'll call the Right of Annulment. If Orsino turns them in, Meredith's mental state has deteriorated so badly she'll probably call an Annulment anyway. Like Hawke says, she tends to add one and one and get eleven.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 19:24:39 GMT
Again as I asid above I don't think Orsino knew that Quentin was a serial kliller Why wouldn't he know? The letter makes it clear that Quentin shared his research results with him. "Wow cool, so you chopped up a bunch of women and sewed their parts back together and it walked at talked afterwards? Great work man, that's such valuable research!"... while women go missing in Kirkwall. How could he not know? And their cooperation must have been going on for a while, or Orsino's letter would not have referred to the usual spot. The letter doesn't contain what was the research exactly, what he shared with Orsino. It can be many things about necromancy + blood magic + corpses. Seems Kirkwall was endless supply of corpses.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 19:30:51 GMT
Oh, "innocent children would die" argument... This is a war. The Templars prepared to kill everyone. Including innocent children in the Circle – nobody cares. Also: not every mage summoned demons, shades and became an abomination. Meredith didn't want to protect the city. She was an abomination. You blame the mages because they tried to protect themselves. Lol, so you're cool with turning mages from "victims of an unjustified pogrom simply trying to defend themselves" into "evil monsters that the Templars have to kill because they're releasing demons and turning themselves into flesh golems liable to kill a few dozen thousands of people" I mean, if you're cool with them putting themselves in the wrong, that's up to you. But the second mages started summoning demons, is the second Meredith became the lesser evil.
Meredith can't be lesser evil, in fact: even more.
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 22, 2020 19:50:34 GMT
Orsino really had no good options. If Meredith finds out about the blood mages on her own, she'll call the Right of Annulment. If Orsino turns them in, Meredith's mental state has deteriorated so badly she'll probably call an Annulment anyway. Like Hawke says, she tends to add one and one and get eleven. Or as Orsino puts it one hundred and eleven
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 19:56:56 GMT
So: where's the evidence he knew about, what exactly was Quentin's success, and how exactly Quentin achieved his successes. At least until it was too late. I ask the same questiion as I read only short versions of books (never liked whern you need to read something more to understand events in the game - and DAO is such a game). So came the qusestion as maybe I missed something on this topic? According to your post - there was nothing it seems. So the game and dialogues shown that he knew. Beth reaction "you could have saved her!" Orsino had something to tell her back... And whatever Meredith was already right before the Harvester fight, she tells a very true thing "Such magic can't come out of thin air". Orsino practiced it, kept a secter evething and knew about everyone turns out. And to become a Harvester? It is not just some simple abomination. Even if he practiced - OK, I see no harm in BM as it it. As I have written already, everything depends on the persion: if you are strong and don't need alien blood - use it for good. I did not see any good. Meredith also not right there: the Harvester isn't such thing he would be able to practice... And how he was able to kill those mages, if not the Templars killed them, or themselves? To become a Harverster you or even just ti use some spell - you need knowledge and practice. Where that knowledge came from? Not about practicing to run around in Harverster form. See above. And about mages...maybe temmplars, maybe not, as Orsino's words were already desperate as you have noticed. Remember what he said after all those confessions/talks/"and here we are"/"you could have saved her!!!!"? I already got the feeling that he killed them as "they would have died anyway! You wanted BM - get it!" 1. When Bethany says, "you could have to saved her", Orsino said: it was too late, and I believe he didn't lie (Bethany seems believed as well – she was sad, when Orsino died) – i saw the Templar end with Bethany. 2. At the moment, Orsino lost his mind in despair. He didn't think about it will be succeeded or not, he felt he should try. To pay for everything. At the moment, yes, he was crazed. It's right, that he studied the blood magic. It doesn't mean he used it as well. He knew, how it could work. And he tried, succeed or not. It didn't matter – I don't think, the Harvester is reversible, and Orsino wanted to live as a Harvester. I don't think, anyone wants to live as Harvester.
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N7
Go Team!
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Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 22, 2020 20:03:09 GMT
Why wouldn't he know? The letter makes it clear that Quentin shared his research results with him. "Wow cool, so you chopped up a bunch of women and sewed their parts back together and it walked at talked afterwards? Great work man, that's such valuable research!"... while women go missing in Kirkwall. How could he not know? And their cooperation must have been going on for a while, or Orsino's letter would not have referred to the usual spot. The letter doesn't contain what was the research exactly, what he shared with Orsino. It can be many things about necromancy + blood magic + corpses. Seems Kirkwall was endless supply of corpses. Indeed there caves full of corpses al alonmg th eWounded coast other than Hawke and Emeric who no one believed ther's no evidence to suggest he didn't just get what he needed from there. W eknow he didn't in the end but nobod yelse did and I always assumed that was the case with Orsino too in that he assumed the same.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 20:18:16 GMT
Orsino really had no good options. If Meredith finds out about the blood mages on her own, she'll call the Right of Annulment. If Orsino turns them in, Meredith's mental state has deteriorated so badly she'll probably call an Annulment anyway. Like Hawke says, she tends to add one and one and get eleven. 1. Don't help 2. Tell a Templar he trusts 3. Tell others he trusts 4. Tell Meredith anyway to save innocent lives because it's the right thing to do And that's with barely any thought into it. Orsino had plenty of good options. He just didn't choose them.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 22, 2020 20:34:30 GMT
Orsino really had no good options. If Meredith finds out about the blood mages on her own, she'll call the Right of Annulment. If Orsino turns them in, Meredith's mental state has deteriorated so badly she'll probably call an Annulment anyway. Like Hawke says, she tends to add one and one and get eleven. 1. Don't help 2. Tell a Templar he trusts 3. Tell others he trusts 4. Tell Meredith anyway to save innocent lives because it's the right thing to do And that's with barely any thought into it. Orsino had plenty of good options. He just didn't choose them. 1: Meredith finds out on her own, blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 2: Assuming he can find one considering Meredith's cast-iron grip on things, that Templar needs to tell others in order to get back-up, it gets back to Meredith, Meredith blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 3: See #2. 4: Meredith doesn't listen because she's cuckoo-bananas, calls the Right of Annulment.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 20:37:33 GMT
Orsino really had no good options. If Meredith finds out about the blood mages on her own, she'll call the Right of Annulment. If Orsino turns them in, Meredith's mental state has deteriorated so badly she'll probably call an Annulment anyway. Like Hawke says, she tends to add one and one and get eleven. 1. Don't help 2. Tell a Templar he trusts 3. Tell others he trusts 4. Tell Meredith anyway to save innocent lives because it's the right thing to do And that's with barely any thought into it. Orsino had plenty of good options. He just didn't choose them. Who wasn't in a desperate situation, when can't trust anyone, that one can't condemn that one, who was. Or, of course, can – everyone can condemn everyone, but that doesn't mean anything, irrelevant.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 20:47:02 GMT
1. Don't help 2. Tell a Templar he trusts 3. Tell others he trusts 4. Tell Meredith anyway to save innocent lives because it's the right thing to do And that's with barely any thought into it. Orsino had plenty of good options. He just didn't choose them. 1: Meredith finds out on her own, blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 2: Assuming he can find one considering Meredith's cast-iron grip on things, that Templar needs to tell others in order to get back-up, it gets back to Meredith, Meredith blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 3: See #2. 4: Meredith doesn't listen because she's cuckoo-bananas, calls the Right of Annulment. If things were as certain as you claim (which in Acts 1 and 2 when Quentin was around they weren't, with even Anders saying as much) then at least that saves as many lives as they can. But no, like I said before he doesn't care about anyone's life but his own.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 22, 2020 20:54:40 GMT
1: Meredith finds out on her own, blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 2: Assuming he can find one considering Meredith's cast-iron grip on things, that Templar needs to tell others in order to get back-up, it gets back to Meredith, Meredith blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 3: See #2. 4: Meredith doesn't listen because she's cuckoo-bananas, calls the Right of Annulment. If things were as certain as you claim (which in Acts 1 and 2 when Quentin was around they weren't, with even Anders saying as much) then at least that saves as many lives as they can. But no, like I said before he doesn't care about anyone's life but his own. You mean when Meredith was already flouting the law against Tranquilizing Harrowed mages and even Dumar didn't dare do anything to piss her off.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2020 20:55:07 GMT
1: Meredith finds out on her own, blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 2: Assuming he can find one considering Meredith's cast-iron grip on things, that Templar needs to tell others in order to get back-up, it gets back to Meredith, Meredith blames Orsino and the Circle regardless of evidence, calls the Right of Annulment. 3: See #2. 4: Meredith doesn't listen because she's cuckoo-bananas, calls the Right of Annulment. If things were as certain as you claim (which in Acts 1 and 2 when Quentin was around they weren't, with even Anders saying as much) then at least that saves as many lives as they can. But no, like I said before he doesn't care about anyone's life but his own. 1. That he would be able to save lifes, is the player's metaknowledge. 2. That simply not right, that Orsino cared only about himself, and this isn't my explanation, but it's canon. He took the position only for protect the others, and he protected Kirkwall. He was active in the qunari fight, he risked his life for the city, what was his prison.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 21:06:49 GMT
If things were as certain as you claim (which in Acts 1 and 2 when Quentin was around they weren't, with even Anders saying as much) then at least that saves as many lives as they can. But no, like I said before he doesn't care about anyone's life but his own. You mean when Meredith was already flouting the law against Tranquilizing Harrowed mages and even Dumar didn't dare do anything to piss her off. The only Harrowed mages I recall that she Tranquilized were ones who were part of Grace’s group aka actual criminals. But yes, she wasn’t itching for the Right of Annulment during that time, and if as far as she went was Tranquilizing mages involved in crimes that means that Orsino would be the only one punished because he was an accessory to a serial killer. So geez, I wonder why he didn’t help. Probably because like I said he cares only about himself. Meanwhile who knows how many women would have lived. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 21:09:49 GMT
At this point I’m just waiting for people to start defending Quentin himself.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 22, 2020 21:12:13 GMT
You mean when Meredith was already flouting the law against Tranquilizing Harrowed mages and even Dumar didn't dare do anything to piss her off. The only Harrowed mages I recall that she Tranquilized were ones who were part of Grace’s group aka actual criminals. But yes, she wasn’t itching for the Right of Annulment during that time, and if as far as she went was Tranquilizing mages involved in crimes that means that Orsino would be the only one punished because he was an accessory to a serial killer. So geez, I wonder why he didn’t help. Probably because like I said he cares only about himself. Meanwhile who knows how many women would have lived. Did you forget the start of Anders's Act 2 quest? It was a lot more than Grace's group.
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