melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Jan 28, 2020 3:45:05 GMT
The broader point I am making by bringing up the dragons and magic is that Thedas is a fantasy setting where MANY aspects of our reality do not apply No, your point is because something doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother anyone else. I can only imagine the wall of text you'd write if someone dared be of the opinion that there shouldn't be any same sex romances in the next DA game and used the crap excuse of "it's not our reality so what does it matter?" as justification.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2020 3:55:51 GMT
Isn't most time in a DA game spent walking/running and not slaying dragons? I'd rather the movements be accurate (or at least, more accurate) for the majority of the game than base the sameness (which, you'll note, tends to default to male) on the 5 minutes where they don't actually matter. UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH The broader point I am making by bringing up the dragons and magic is that Thedas is a fantasy setting where MANY aspects of our reality do not apply, including particular points of anatomy and biology. Appealing to 'accuracy' makes no sense. Accurate to what? We are not on Earth, and it can even be argued that the 'humans' of Thedas are not the same species as us. Even if I accept that the "human" males and females of Thedas need to walk differently (and I don't), there's no real-world point of comparison for elves, dwarves or Qunari. The simplest solution is to design animations that will work best for everybody, and I maintain that anyone who gets upset about a 'female' character walking the same as a 'male' one has far too much time on their hands. Well, I guess I have enough time in my hands and education in relevant fields to care enough about field of animation and design... Anyway, I think you're taking this argument where it wasn't ever intended to be taken, which is to another side of the extreme. Sure, the claims that fantasy should be 'realistic' and demanding that it mirrored social structure or population diversity in fantasy is quite ridiculous, not only because of magic in the air and dragons flying around, but different history or migration patterns. ....But aside from the fact that all stories, no matter how fantastic, will ALWAYS be in one way or another based on real world (this is the only point of reference we have!), DA setting isn't a world that far away from ours. There are still humans and humanoids and their movements are similar to ours - or in fact either based on, or straight copied from real people. Physics also appear to work a lot like ours, when it's not altered by magic. And qunari, dwarves and elves are still basically very slightly altered humans, compared to what they could be. They don't have, say, different lower appendages or exoskeletons, like some species in Mass Effect do. They can be more flexible or stronger or more resilient, but that doesn't affect their base movements to the point when it's not humanoid movement anymore. Dragon Age also isn't very stylized. Their characters and animations are pretty realistic in DAI, even compared to, say, energetic and exaggerated movements of Devil May Cry 5. And just like facial animations pushed MEA to Uncanny Valley for many, making real-looking world move in unreal ways can do the same for other games. It's fine if this is an intended effect, but we know that it wasn't really in DA at places. There was a female walk cycle in DAI - the cinematic simply didn't utilize it for PCs, because all models were basically hooked to one walk cycle, thus creating effect that looks very awkward for quite a few of people, especially that they just saw their characters walk differently outside of a cinematic moments before. It was their first try on Frostbite with DAI and now they have more experience and hopefully more time to refine and add nuance to animations to because hey, whaddya know - aside from people kinda paying attention to quality of animation more and more, I'm fairly sure animators would like to express themselves in ways that go beyond 'it's a game, so it will do, who cares?'. I can even assure you, that any half-decent animator or designer would LOVE a challenge of creating a somewhat alieni'ish movement library for humanoids, if such was their intention. But this wasn't intended - those were simply shortcomings stemming out of limitations imposed on them at that time, just like MEA animations were. Or like complexion was in DAO, making darker characters' skin look patchy. Anyway - there don't appear to be many complaints about animations in Anthem, so clearly they've made strides to improve and support their animation and cinematic departments. I don't recall seeing women utilizing male walk cycle, etc. So I don't think people should waste a lot of energy being upset about a problem that has a small chance of existing in DA4 (kinda like there being no choice of gender for PCs)... or being too worked-up about people wanting to talk about minutiae of animations in BW game, especially given the Long Effin' Wait...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 28, 2020 4:48:23 GMT
The broader point I am making by bringing up the dragons and magic is that Thedas is a fantasy setting where MANY aspects of our reality do not apply No, your point is because something doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother anyone else. I can only imagine the wall of text you'd write if someone dared be of the opinion that there shouldn't be any same sex romances in the next DA game and used the crap excuse of "it's not our reality so what does it matter?" as justification. Kinda telling on yourself there, aren't you?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 28, 2020 4:58:45 GMT
UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH The broader point I am making by bringing up the dragons and magic is that Thedas is a fantasy setting where MANY aspects of our reality do not apply, including particular points of anatomy and biology. Appealing to 'accuracy' makes no sense. Accurate to what? We are not on Earth, and it can even be argued that the 'humans' of Thedas are not the same species as us. Even if I accept that the "human" males and females of Thedas need to walk differently (and I don't), there's no real-world point of comparison for elves, dwarves or Qunari. The simplest solution is to design animations that will work best for everybody, and I maintain that anyone who gets upset about a 'female' character walking the same as a 'male' one has far too much time on their hands. Well, I guess I have enough time in my hands and education in relevant fields to care enough about field of animation and design... Anyway, I think you're taking this argument where it wasn't ever intended to be taken, which is to another side of the extreme. Sure, the claims that fantasy should be 'realistic' and demanding that it mirrored social structure or population diversity in fantasy is quite ridiculous, not only because of magic in the air and dragons flying around, but different history or migration patterns. ....But aside from the fact that all stories, no matter how fantastic, will ALWAYS be in one way or another based on real world (this is the only point of reference we have!), DA setting isn't a world that far away from ours. There are still humans and humanoids and their movements are familiar to ours - or in fact either based on, or straight copied from real people. Physics also appear to work a lot like ours, when it's not altered by magic. And qunari, dwarves and elves are still basically very slightly altered humans, compared to what they could be. They don't have, say, different lower appendages or exoskeletons, like some species in Mass Effect do. They can be more flexible or stronger or more resilient, but that doesn't affect their base movements to the point when it's not humanoid movement anymore. Dragon Age also isn't very stylized. Their characters and animations are pretty realistic in DAI, even compared to, say, energetic and exaggerated movements of Devil May Cry 5. And just like facial animations pushed MEA to Uncanny Valley for many, making real-looking world move in unreal ways can do the same for other games. It's fine if this is an intended effect, but we know that it wasn't really in DA at places. There was a female walk cycle in DAI - the cinematic simply didn't utilize it for PCs, because all models were basically hooked to one walk cycle, thus creating effect that looks very awkward for quite a few of people, especially that they just saw their characters walk differently outside of a cinematic moments before. It was their first try on Frostbite with DAI and now they have more experience and hopefully more time to refine and add nuance to animations to because hey, whaddya know - aside from people kinda paying attention to quality of animation more and more, I'm fairly sure animators would like to express themselves in ways that go beyond 'it's a game, so it will do, who cares?'. I can even assure you, that any half-decent animator or designer would LOVE a challenge of creating a somewhat alieni'ish movement library for humanoids, if such was their intention. But this wasn't intended - those were simply shortcomings stemming out of limitations imposed on them at that time, just like MEA animations were. Or like complexion was in DAO, making darker characters' skin look patchy. Anyway - there don't appear to be many complaints about animations in Anthem, so clearly they've made strides to improve and support their animation and cinematic departments. I don't recall seeing women utilizing male walk cycle, etc. So I don't think people should waste a lot of energy being upset about a problem that has a small chance of existing in DA4 (kinda like there being no choice of gender for PCs)... or being too worked-up about people wanting to talk about minutiae of animations in BW game, especially given the Long Effin' Wait... Look, I read about half of this, and I'm sure it's very well thought out, and your credentials are legit. The truth is I don't particularly care if male and female characters walk differently. I reject any and all arguments that fantasy has to reflect "real life" in any way. The entire POINT of the fantasy genre is that it is not bound by the strictures of "real life". Yes, points of similarity are inevitable, but they are not required. A semantic point maybe, but it matters to me. I also reject any argument that a fictional character has to do anything because of their fictional sex, and more so the notion that they have to do it in any particular way.
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Post by Vall on Jan 28, 2020 6:14:38 GMT
The poll is missing one very serious option... how about no *male* lead. Andraste wasn't a man, now was she.
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 10:01:17 GMT
The poll is missing one very serious option... how about no *male* lead. Andraste wasn't a man, now was she. how about we have both genders on lead characters? since you know, bioware done it so far and there is literally zero indication they will do it differently, at least in that aspect.
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 10:08:16 GMT
1I reject any and all arguments that fantasy has to reflect "real life" in any way. The entire POINT of the fantasy genre is that it is not bound by the strictures of "real life". Yes, points of similarity are inevitable, but they are not required. A semantic point maybe, but it matters to me. I also reject any argument that a fictional character has to do anything because of their fictional sex, and more so the notion that they have to do it in any particular way. how about this argument then: the RP aspect. say i play a female character and i was her conduct to be so called "girly" why shouldn't i get the option for her to be walking less manly? and it's not like we don't have women walking differently than men in dragon age, hawke did in dragon age 2, josie did.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 28, 2020 10:19:43 GMT
1I reject any and all arguments that fantasy has to reflect "real life" in any way. The entire POINT of the fantasy genre is that it is not bound by the strictures of "real life". Yes, points of similarity are inevitable, but they are not required. A semantic point maybe, but it matters to me. I also reject any argument that a fictional character has to do anything because of their fictional sex, and more so the notion that they have to do it in any particular way. how about this argument then: the RP aspect. say i play a female character and i was her conduct to be so called "girly" why shouldn't i get the option for her to be walking less manly? and it's not like we don't have women walking differently than men in dragon age, hawke did in dragon age 2, josie did. Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut.
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Post by river82 on Jan 28, 2020 11:04:41 GMT
how about this argument then: the RP aspect. say i play a female character and i was her conduct to be so called "girly" why shouldn't i get the option for her to be walking less manly? and it's not like we don't have women walking differently than men in dragon age, hawke did in dragon age 2, josie did. Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut. *Loads up 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees most people walking around as a catboy or catgirl … in sexy glamors* *Loads up the most popular MMO on the planet, sees an entire server dedicated to erotic roleplay* *Goes back to 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees a scantily clad bunny girl race introduced* I'm totally convinced that female walk is going to turn heads
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 28, 2020 11:41:33 GMT
The poll is missing one very serious option... how about no *male* lead. Andraste wasn't a man, now was she. Religious extremist!
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 11:49:08 GMT
how about this argument then: the RP aspect. say i play a female character and i was her conduct to be so called "girly" why shouldn't i get the option for her to be walking less manly? and it's not like we don't have women walking differently than men in dragon age, hawke did in dragon age 2, josie did. Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut. huh? xD
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 11:50:25 GMT
Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut. *Loads up 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees most people walking around as a catboy or catgirl … in sexy glamors* *Loads up the most popular MMO on the planet, sees an entire server dedicated to erotic roleplay* *Goes back to 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees a scantily clad bunny girl race introduced* I'm totally convinced that female walk is going to turn heads i am glad my point was taken a turn that has zero to do with what i said or meant xD
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Post by river82 on Jan 28, 2020 11:56:46 GMT
*Loads up 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees most people walking around as a catboy or catgirl … in sexy glamors* *Loads up the most popular MMO on the planet, sees an entire server dedicated to erotic roleplay* *Goes back to 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees a scantily clad bunny girl race introduced* I'm totally convinced that female walk is going to turn heads i am glad my point was taken a turn that has zero to do with what i said or meant xD It wouldn't be the internet if that didn't happen hundreds of times a day
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 28, 2020 14:04:31 GMT
Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut. *Loads up 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees most people walking around as a catboy or catgirl … in sexy glamors* *Loads up the most popular MMO on the planet, sees an entire server dedicated to erotic roleplay* *Goes back to 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees a scantily clad bunny girl race introduced* I'm totally convinced that female walk is going to turn heads I don't know what point you're trying to make, besides the fact that sexist character design is rampant across the entire industry. Plenty of people still side-eye that shit. Something can be popular and still creepy and gross.
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 14:35:08 GMT
*Loads up 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees most people walking around as a catboy or catgirl … in sexy glamors* *Loads up the most popular MMO on the planet, sees an entire server dedicated to erotic roleplay* *Goes back to 2nd most popular MMO on the planet, sees a scantily clad bunny girl race introduced* I'm totally convinced that female walk is going to turn heads I don't know what point you're trying to make, besides the fact that sexist character design is rampant across the entire industry. Plenty of people still side-eye that shit. Something can be popular and still creepy and gross. yes because when i said a woman character walking like a woman clearly i meant that, totally. sure it has nothing to do with one another but your connection is still valid and not at all in your head. yup, totally.
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Jan 28, 2020 14:36:12 GMT
i am glad my point was taken a turn that has zero to do with what i said or meant xD It wouldn't be the internet if that didn't happen hundreds of times a day it happens outside the internet as well >_<
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jan 28, 2020 15:29:59 GMT
Well, I guess I have enough time in my hands and education in relevant fields to care enough about field of animation and design... Anyway, I think you're taking this argument where it wasn't ever intended to be taken, which is to another side of the extreme. Sure, the claims that fantasy should be 'realistic' and demanding that it mirrored social structure or population diversity in fantasy is quite ridiculous, not only because of magic in the air and dragons flying around, but different history or migration patterns. ....But aside from the fact that all stories, no matter how fantastic, will ALWAYS be in one way or another based on real world (this is the only point of reference we have!), DA setting isn't a world that far away from ours. There are still humans and humanoids and their movements are familiar to ours - or in fact either based on, or straight copied from real people. Physics also appear to work a lot like ours, when it's not altered by magic. And qunari, dwarves and elves are still basically very slightly altered humans, compared to what they could be. They don't have, say, different lower appendages or exoskeletons, like some species in Mass Effect do. They can be more flexible or stronger or more resilient, but that doesn't affect their base movements to the point when it's not humanoid movement anymore. Dragon Age also isn't very stylized. Their characters and animations are pretty realistic in DAI, even compared to, say, energetic and exaggerated movements of Devil May Cry 5. And just like facial animations pushed MEA to Uncanny Valley for many, making real-looking world move in unreal ways can do the same for other games. It's fine if this is an intended effect, but we know that it wasn't really in DA at places. There was a female walk cycle in DAI - the cinematic simply didn't utilize it for PCs, because all models were basically hooked to one walk cycle, thus creating effect that looks very awkward for quite a few of people, especially that they just saw their characters walk differently outside of a cinematic moments before. It was their first try on Frostbite with DAI and now they have more experience and hopefully more time to refine and add nuance to animations to because hey, whaddya know - aside from people kinda paying attention to quality of animation more and more, I'm fairly sure animators would like to express themselves in ways that go beyond 'it's a game, so it will do, who cares?'. I can even assure you, that any half-decent animator or designer would LOVE a challenge of creating a somewhat alieni'ish movement library for humanoids, if such was their intention. But this wasn't intended - those were simply shortcomings stemming out of limitations imposed on them at that time, just like MEA animations were. Or like complexion was in DAO, making darker characters' skin look patchy. Anyway - there don't appear to be many complaints about animations in Anthem, so clearly they've made strides to improve and support their animation and cinematic departments. I don't recall seeing women utilizing male walk cycle, etc. So I don't think people should waste a lot of energy being upset about a problem that has a small chance of existing in DA4 (kinda like there being no choice of gender for PCs)... or being too worked-up about people wanting to talk about minutiae of animations in BW game, especially given the Long Effin' Wait... Look, I read about half of this, and I'm sure it's very well thought out, and your credentials are legit. The truth is I don't particularly care if male and female characters walk differently. I reject any and all arguments that fantasy has to reflect "real life" in any way. The entire POINT of the fantasy genre is that it is not bound by the strictures of "real life". Yes, points of similarity are inevitable, but they are not required. A semantic point maybe, but it matters to me. I also reject any argument that a fictional character has to do anything because of their fictional sex, and more so the notion that they have to do it in any particular way. I want to see Dragon Age 4 go fully Unity Engine isometric so walking animations don't matter AT ALL.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 28, 2020 15:44:05 GMT
how about this argument then: the RP aspect. say i play a female character and i was her conduct to be so called "girly" why shouldn't i get the option for her to be walking less manly? and it's not like we don't have women walking differently than men in dragon age, hawke did in dragon age 2, josie did. Do whatever you want, just don't be surprised if other people side-eye you for making all your female RP characters do an "equal blend of strong and sexy grrrrrr" catwalk strut. Looks like I'm not the only person who has never forgotten this: I don't suppose it ever occurred to him that some of us might prefer our characters' gait to be: -- strong and determined -- smart and capable -- graceful and athletic -- energetic and motivated … or any of a bazillion other postures walking might convey. It also apparently never occurred to him that what looks "sexy" to his eyes might look more like a desperate affectation to others.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2020 15:45:43 GMT
Look, I read about half of this, and I'm sure it's very well thought out, and your credentials are legit. The truth is I don't particularly care if male and female characters walk differently. I reject any and all arguments that fantasy has to reflect "real life" in any way. The entire POINT of the fantasy genre is that it is not bound by the strictures of "real life". Yes, points of similarity are inevitable, but they are not required. A semantic point maybe, but it matters to me. I also reject any argument that a fictional character has to do anything because of their fictional sex, and more so the notion that they have to do it in any particular way. But we aren't talking about some sort of designed 'going out of bounds', but something that stemmed out of limitations in game development of that time, that you're making way too much of on conceptual level - thus cheapening the whole argument, when we know it has its merits when applied to something more substantial than this particular issue. Nobody is making the same argument about patchy dark skintones in DAO. It bothered people that it looked wrong compared to light skintones when they wanted to play POC PCs and it stemmed out of technical difficulties and not creative decisions. Are you going to make the same argument there...? And since I don't know when you stopped reading ... I'll point it out again - there IS female walk cycle in DAI. It's just that it switches to male walk in many cinematics, thus making the difference between animations more noticeable. So there is no consistent 'they do it in particular way' in game itself in this specific regard - just an unintended visual quirk they'll very likely fix in the next game, same with elf arms (it's not a real race, yet people are bothered that arms look and move awkward).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 28, 2020 15:51:39 GMT
And since I don't know when you stopped reading ... I'll point it out again - there IS female walk cycle in DAI. It's just that it switches to male walk in many cinematics, thus making the difference between animations more noticeable. So there is no consistent 'they do it in particular way' in game itself in this specific regard - just an unintended visual quirk they'll very likely fix in the next game, same with elf arms (it's not a real race, yet people are bothered that arms look and move awkward). If their "fix" involves using the same (ahem) "strong and sexy to my eyes" abomination originally developed for Hawke all the time, I'm out.
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Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2020 16:01:04 GMT
And since I don't know when you stopped reading ... I'll point it out again - there IS female walk cycle in DAI. It's just that it switches to male walk in many cinematics, thus making the difference between animations more noticeable. So there is no consistent 'they do it in particular way' in game itself in this specific regard - just an unintended visual quirk they'll very likely fix in the next game, same with elf arms (it's not a real race, yet people are bothered that arms look and move awkward). If their "fix" involves using the same (ahem) "strong and sexy to my eyes" abomination originally developed for Hawke all the time, I'm out. ...Why would they use a walk cycle ported from an older game (and a different engine), when they have adequate animation libraries out of 3 last Bioware games made on Frostbite, and in fact can tap into other Frostbite games made under EA's umbrella? The whole field of 3D animation has changed quite a bit since DA2 or even DAI. I think we can see quite a bit of refinement when it comes to animations (DAI was Bioware's first try on the engine) and quite a bit of it will likely be built on different principles, allowing them more flexibility when it comes to assigning things like walk cycles to people with different body types. As I said earlier, if it depended on me, I'd give people a few options of gait and posture to choose from - perhaps even a slider if they wanted more or less exaggerated hip sway regardless of gender, lol. Some games already do things like that, though it's not very common and it's hard to say if it's an option easy to add on Frostbite.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 28, 2020 16:11:53 GMT
If their "fix" involves using the same (ahem) "strong and sexy to my eyes" abomination originally developed for Hawke all the time, I'm out. ...Why would they use a walk cycle ported from an older game (and a different engine), when they have adequate animation libraries out of 3 last Bioware games made on Frostbite, and in fact can tap into other Frostbite game made under EA's umbrella? The whole field of 3D animation has changed quiet a bit since DA2 or even DAI. I think we can see quite a bit of refinement when it comes to animations (DAI was Bioware's first try on engine) and quite a bit of it will likely be built on different principles, allowing them more flexibility when it comes to assigning things like walk cycles to people with different body types. As I said earlier, if it depended on me, I'd give people a few options of gait and posture to choose from - perhaps even a slider if they wanted more or less exaggerated hip sway regardless of gender, lol. Some games already do things like that, though it's not very common and it's hard to say if it's an option easy to add on Frostbite. The other question I would have about an option like that is how much development time would be needed to add something like that. Which I could see being something that holds back adding a system like this for it could be the new procedural content issue. I am not completely sure I have posted on this thread or not, but my stance has been that it would be nice if BioWare did have the animations of both genders. Now I think its subtle enough that if they decided they only wanted to make one animation, but have it somewhere in the middle most people wouldn't notice or care. If they go that route I just don't want to see a female protagonist man-spreading during a cinematic. Which is probably one of the only times I noticed the movement animations feeling really out of place. As far as the animations in Dragon Age II or other games to me it was BioWare being BioWare and over compensating, for they heard people talk about the different animations and that was their response to it.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 28, 2020 16:26:33 GMT
If their "fix" involves using the same (ahem) "strong and sexy to my eyes" abomination originally developed for Hawke all the time, I'm out. ...Why would they use a walk cycle ported from an older game (and a different engine), when they have adequate animation libraries out of 3 last Bioware games made on Frostbite, and in fact can tap into other Frostbite game made under EA's umbrella? Why would they have ever created and used that catwalk strut - both live and in cutscenes - in the first place? Because someone apparently thought it was an improvement over what they'd used previously. Despite marketing's many attempts to get us to associate "new" with "improved", it doesn't always work that way, at least not to my eyes. You seem to be expecting massive changes in the animation libraries they use this time. I guess we'll see...
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2020 18:18:19 GMT
...Why would they use a walk cycle ported from an older game (and a different engine), when they have adequate animation libraries out of 3 last Bioware games made on Frostbite, and in fact can tap into other Frostbite game made under EA's umbrella? Why would they have ever created and used that catwalk strut - both live and in cutscenes - in the first place? Because someone apparently thought it was an improvement over what they'd used previously. Despite marketing's many attempts to get us to associate "new" with "improved", it doesn't always work that way, at least not to my eyes. Well it was, in this case, IMO. Aside from the fact that DAO and DA2 have used a different version of Eclipse Engine, the DAO walk animations (and graphics in general) were pretty 'ehhh' even for animation/graphics standards of the time. It was mostly because the engine they've used was already quite outdated in 2009. 2006 Oblivion can be argued to have looked better. DAO has been stuck in development for a long time. So I am entirely not surprised they've ditched most of it and tried something new, even in short development time they've had for DA2. As someone who is a detail-oriented visual artist, it was somewhat amusing to watch my character move that stiff in DAO - and if I have to choose between stiff as a plank and exaggerated, I tend to sway towards the latter. It kinda got me out of game a bit and I can be pretty forgiving when it comes to suspension of disbelief, all things considered. I'm generally fine with DA2 animations, because there's an an improvement in graphics overall, plus there was an attempt at style, instead of mostly 'generic fantasy through dirty window' look of DAO. I may seem harsh, but given the changes to the look of DA franchise I'd say most Bioware folks agreed with me that there was room for improvement there. Anyway, these DAO walk animations wouldn't work AT ALL if someone tried to paste them into Frostbite and attach them, unmodified, to way more detailed and realistic models of DAI. Neither would Hawke's exaggerated trot, btw. Which was my point all along - animation should follow visuals in some sort of cohesive manner and be cohesive in on itself. We're at point in time where we can expect that from games, even if big RPGs/games with customizable PCs can still get a bit of slack due to their sheer size and complexity. DAI's visual side has been made more realistic and so were majority of movements of characters, which is why suddenly swapping to male walk in cinematic for female PCs felt so off. If the character used male/neutral walk cycle all along, or all their movements were designed to be exaggerated or stylized (like in Devil May Cry... or in DA2) then it would have been a different discussion. Bioware has already improved significantly in terms of visual storytelling and animations, so why wouldn't I expect progress, at least when it comes to avoiding glaring mistakes and maintaining visual cohesion? They have to improve anyway. Quality visuals require quality animations. It's true even in very stylized settings (I say so irrespective of the whole 'more hip sway!', because I've been consistently arguing for more variety and nuance across the board).
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2020 18:36:50 GMT
...Why would they use a walk cycle ported from an older game (and a different engine), when they have adequate animation libraries out of 3 last Bioware games made on Frostbite, and in fact can tap into other Frostbite game made under EA's umbrella? The whole field of 3D animation has changed quiet a bit since DA2 or even DAI. I think we can see quite a bit of refinement when it comes to animations (DAI was Bioware's first try on engine) and quite a bit of it will likely be built on different principles, allowing them more flexibility when it comes to assigning things like walk cycles to people with different body types. As I said earlier, if it depended on me, I'd give people a few options of gait and posture to choose from - perhaps even a slider if they wanted more or less exaggerated hip sway regardless of gender, lol. Some games already do things like that, though it's not very common and it's hard to say if it's an option easy to add on Frostbite. The other question I would have about an option like that is how much development time would be needed to add something like that. Which I could see being something that holds back adding a system like this for it could be the new procedural content issue. I am not completely sure I have posted on this thread or not, but my stance has been that it would be nice if BioWare did have the animations of both genders. Now I think its subtle enough that if they decided they only wanted to make one animation, but have it somewhere in the middle most people wouldn't notice or care. If they go that route I just don't want to see a female protagonist man-spreading during a cinematic. Which is probably one of the only times I noticed the movement animations feeling really out of place. As far as the animations in Dragon Age II or other games to me it was BioWare being BioWare and over compensating, for they heard people talk about the different animations and that was their response to it. I'd say that it depends. On a lot of factors, naturally. Not only on the engine or quality of pre-production and so on. If we get only a choice of genders but can be only human, then I can see the number of customizations we get potentially growing, compared to a situation where we get more races to play with. Then again it also depends on internal CC they'd create their many NPCs on and whether there's technology and how that affects specific armor and detail created for each race. However, there's one thing we have to keep in mind - thanks to focus on live service both engine and the game are made in a way that makes updates and improvements easier. I still remember the significant delay of Black Emporium in DAI, because the devs have wrangled with stubborn code. Since DA is now made on Anthem's codebase, which whole principle is that it's a game that grows and expands as it ages, it's possible that they may add such customization options in the future, or sell more exaggerated postures/personalities in their MTX store. Some do so already, like in MMO I play. And personalities in it have only became a thing a several years after the game launch. Now I can prance into darkest dungeons like this! (yes, it's a real walk cycle)
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