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Post by Gwydden on Jan 27, 2020 3:49:47 GMT
Sure. That's why women can't somersault through the air and land sword-point first on a dragon's head. Gravity. Well, it is one reason why.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 27, 2020 5:18:24 GMT
No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Right, cause that's what video games are about: copying 'real life'. Even if men and women do move differently, and I'm not going to accept that on your word alone, there's no sensible reason to animate them differently in a video game, especially when they'll be doing a bunch of shit that people don't do in "real liiiiiife nyer nyeeeeer". Anyone who gives a shit about it is a complete weirdo. I can't even begin to comprehend the alien psychology of a person who'd think it's an issue worthy of COMPLAINT. But hey, if anyone here really has this much time on their hands, then by all means, show me the Kinesiology study that compares and contrasts the posture/movement of male and female bodies while casting spells and fighting dragons. That argument didn't work for facial animations tho, did it? And as games become more realistic (from visual standpoint), the need for animations to be more varied, elaborate and life-like (and maybe even - heaven forbid! - more artsy) will grow. Also - since casting spells isn't usually particularly different from dance moves, and fighting dragons from typical stunt work in movies, I fail to see how differences in build would *not* affect animation...? I mean, I'm a graphic artist and most people like me don't need a degree in kinesiology to know enough about human body to tell this stuff apart, or be aware how anatomy affects movement. This sh*t is important even in still pictures! And it's hardly different with people having different postures or height or mass - the Qunari should be animated somewhat differently than elves or dwarves, for example. Wearing light or heavy armor would affect movements too. So, as fidelity rises, polygons on 3D models become more numerous, and textures sharper and more detailed, the human eye will become more discerning when it comes to the quality of animation utilized to move all those polygons around. If there's enough dissonance then we're venturing straight into Uncanny Valley, which isn't a great place to be. So yeah, animation is simply important in modern videogames and will remain an important part of their expression in foreseeable future. Fortunately, 3D animation has a very wide use across wider entertainment industry and thus strides are made on this field quickly. Modern 3D modelling and animation tools (and mocap) make a lot of stuff easier than it was even 5 years ago, and allow animators to focus more on refinement, rather than building all necessary animations from scratch. That's not to say that I'm demanding a ton of unique, elaborate animations for different genders or races (clever use of available animation libraries to mask some deficiencies would be appreciated tho) in every game I play - I'd just like to point out that we're quickly getting past the days when one could slap one animation type on all models, just like we're past many other different things in game design, like godawful voiceover quality or visible compression/pixellation on textures (save for stylized stuff).
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 27, 2020 14:25:24 GMT
Right, cause that's what video games are about: copying 'real life'. Even if men and women do move differently, and I'm not going to accept that on your word alone, there's no sensible reason to animate them differently in a video game, especially when they'll be doing a bunch of shit that people don't do in "real liiiiiife nyer nyeeeeer". Anyone who gives a shit about it is a complete weirdo. I can't even begin to comprehend the alien psychology of a person who'd think it's an issue worthy of COMPLAINT. But hey, if anyone here really has this much time on their hands, then by all means, show me the Kinesiology study that compares and contrasts the posture/movement of male and female bodies while casting spells and fighting dragons. That argument didn't work for facial animations tho, did it? Snip
That argument, if you remember, was one reason why Andromeda had such a poor reception at launch.
Animations are important and games will be ridiculed for it, if poorly made. As you said, proper facial mocap capture will save the day but is expensive.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 27, 2020 14:35:52 GMT
Sure. That's why women can't somersault through the air and land sword-point first on a dragon's head. Gravity.
LOL!
Did some research with Google about this did you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 17:59:26 GMT
almost all of u sound 5 minutes from going "cassandra's jaw is not a physical possibility for a female" or something like. never seen a woman walk differently from me or any one else unless she was doing it on purpose. different animations is a waste of money they could be using towards anything else of more importance. so everything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 18:01:13 GMT
No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Pretty much. I have never seen, in real life, a woman walk like a man (or the reverse), unless they were actively trying to. Different hips, or so I'm told. how exactly does one "walk like a man"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 18:03:55 GMT
Men and women even have a different center of gravity making some movements for men impossible and vice versa.- like what?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 27, 2020 18:43:54 GMT
Pretty much. I have never seen, in real life, a woman walk like a man (or the reverse), unless they were actively trying to. Different hips, or so I'm told. how exactly does one "walk like a man"? Walk like a man, talk like a man
Walk like a man my son
No woman's worth crawlin' on the earth
So walk like a man, my son
I'll see myself out
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 27, 2020 19:22:04 GMT
how exactly does one "walk like a man"? Other than - "in a way that looks different to every woman I've ever seen due to physically different hip/pelvic bones" - I don't know how to answer that question. I am not the Brevnau you are looking for.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 27, 2020 19:22:14 GMT
Men and women even have a different center of gravity making some movements for men impossible and vice versa.- like what? Tried it myself, same result.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 27, 2020 20:06:40 GMT
almost all of u sound 5 minutes from going "cassandra's jaw is not a physical possibility for a female" or something like. never seen a woman walk differently from me or any one else unless she was doing it on purpose. different animations is a waste of money they could be using towards anything else of more importance. so everything else. Hmmm, are you sure that differences in walk are not that noticeable? Especially in games or animated features that usually make movements more pronounced and then - not infrequently - apply animations to skeleton of models not necessarily compatible with them? You know, like here (start of the video: female Inquisitor - male walk cycle, Cassandra - female walk cycle): This 'diaper walk' of female Inquisitors happens, because women don't have to accommodate for existence of external, sensitive reproductive organs between their legs, never mind having wider hips, more elastic joints and ligaments or more flexible spine. Most of us simply walk differently, mate. And a lot of stuff affects movement of each person, regardless of gender. That you don't pay attention to it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, or that this stuff should be ignored wholesale in modern games, given how much of a visual medium they are and how the graphic fidelity only keeps increasing. Now, we can discuss how many resources should go into animation in specific games or in specific genres of games for it to be worth the effort - for example, a lot of people can expect more from animations in games like "Uncharted" or "The Last Of Us", or those featuring a fixed character compared to 100+ hour game with a customizable PC or a 'cast of thousands'. But, as mentioned before, we're past the time when same animations can be slapped on character models and then everybody calls it a day, even if only because we're way past time when games were kind of blocky or clunky or cartoony, for a simple reason of not having enough computing power or tools to make them better. Never mind for now that realism is always the key to designing even the 'styliziest' of styles. It's a somewhat different discussion. But if a game wants to emulate real or semi-real style, then it also follows that it should emulate movements that compliment the design of its world and characters. We're at a time when devs are able to give individual characters idiosyncrasies or quirks or unique gaits that help the game with its artistic expression - this naturally whets the appetite of the audience, which starts to pay more attention to quality of animations in games. To put it simply - as models and graphics become better (even in games with high level of stylization), so will demand for better, more nuanced animation grow with it and thus invite even more discussion circling around its many aspects. So I don't think it's fair to compare discussing the topic now to silliness with Cassandra's jaw.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 27, 2020 20:17:31 GMT
I'm pretty sure I do not walk like most women - or most women do not walk like I do- simply because I weigh 250lbs and most women around 135 or so. The weight difference between men and women surely results in a different walking ''Style'' as well.
I think it would be foolish to assume that a different pelvis ratio, different total muscle mass, different center of gravity, different sex organ anatomy and considerable weight difference does not result in a different walking style. Saying that there cannot be a difference is like saying a sports car and a minivan have the same driving characteristics because they have wheels and they are cars.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Jan 27, 2020 20:56:08 GMT
Surely a walk that was half way between the two could be made. Neither big and butch nor an anime girl with a stick up her arse.
The question is Bee, could you walk like femHawke if you wanted to?
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Post by river82 on Jan 27, 2020 20:57:20 GMT
Tried it myself, same result. Lol, I just heard about that on twitch recently. Someone said their entire office was trying it and yep, none of the guys could But alas, according to a (poor) scientist named Jeremy Johnson who has been dragged into this whole mess, it's because, "the centre of mass for most girls is lower to the hips, while the centre of mass in boys is much higher. Therefore for most girls, the centre of mass while bent over the chair is above their feet, while the centre of mass for boys is above the chair."www.mamamia.com.au/the-chair-challenge/Interesting. I've never heard about this before 0.0 EDIT: Oh noes, conflicting hypotheses: However, according to scientist Professor Brian Ford of Cambridge University, who spoke to The Sun recently, this is not the case.
"It is true that women have a lower centre of gravity than men, by several centimetres," Professor Ford said.
"But that has no bearing on this crafty little trick.
"Men have longer feet than women. Two paces back for a man would be some 60cm, for a woman it's more like 50cm.
"So to begin with, the man is forced further away from the wall.
"The man's larger feet mean he is farther away from the wall than the woman, and is thus leaning forward.
"The woman's legs are closer to the wall, and are thus leaning back."
www.hitc.com/en-gb/2019/12/09/why-cant-men-do-the-chair-challenge-tiktok-science-social-media/
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 27, 2020 21:01:25 GMT
I'm pretty sure I do not walk like most women - or most women do not walk like I do- simply because I weigh 250lbs and most women around 135 or so. The weight difference between men and women surely results in a different walking ''Style'' as well. I think it would be foolish to assume that a different pelvis ratio, different total muscle mass, different center of gravity, different sex organ anatomy and considerable weight difference does not result in a different walking style. Saying that there cannot be a difference is like saying a sports car and a minivan have the same driving characteristics because they have wheels and they are cars. Eh, I'm not sure many people postulate that there is 'no' difference - it's mostly whether differences between how men and women walk are worth the effort, and whether resources should go somewhere else, especially in a games of a size and scope of Dragon Age. Naturally, I'm biased here due to my profession - if it depended on me, I'd have a library of different gaits with some characteristics. But I'd actually give players at least 2 or 3 gaits or 'personalities' (with gait attached) to choose from. Some games already offer this, so it's not undoable. I don't expect for DA to offer over a dozen of different personalities the way ESO does (ESO is a MMO, so their animations aren't as advanced or realistic, thus easier to tinker with), but I can see 2 or 3 (and maybe a few more postures, like in Dragon's Dogma) to be achievable. If it was my game we'd also probably see differences with how rogues move compared to heavy armor-clad warriors and so on. I'm quite aware of limitations of designing huge RPGs though, so I know designers will more than likely search for a happy medium and use clever solutions - or use powers of modern 3D animation tools, that will take a 'neutral' walk cycle and individualize it somewhat, based on different rigs. Modern 3D animation doesn't just rely on mocapping or hand-keying every movement on each model, so there's room to avoid stuff like forcing different body types to use animations that aren't very compatible with them (which also helps to avoid stuff like awkward arms for male elves in DAI).
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 27, 2020 21:22:13 GMT
Surely a walk that was half way between the two could be made. Neither big and butch nor an anime girl with a stick up her arse. The question is Bee, could you walk like femHawke if you wanted to? You know what? I just got up and tried it for real. THE THINGS I DO FOR YOU Thing is, yeah, can totally run like fem Hawke and that with surprisingly little effort. It feels extremely.............unnatural though. With the junk rubbing and stuff. I just hope my neighbor didn't see me prancing around like that. I would hate to destroy his fantasies. *edit* Yeah, pretty much like this:
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Jan 27, 2020 21:25:34 GMT
Surely a walk that was half way between the two could be made. Neither big and butch nor an anime girl with a stick up her arse. The question is Bee, could you walk like femHawke if you wanted to? You know what? I just got up and tried it for real. THE THINGS I DO FOR YOU Thing is, yeah, can totally run like fem Hawke and that with surprisingly little effort. It feels extremely.............unnatural though. With the junk rubbing and stuff. I just hope my neighbor didn't see me prancing around like that. I would hate to destroy his fantasies. You legend.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 27, 2020 21:31:11 GMT
Saying that there cannot be a difference is like saying a sports car and a minivan have the same driving characteristics It can if you're brave enough.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 27, 2020 21:35:18 GMT
Sure. That's why women can't somersault through the air and land sword-point first on a dragon's head. Gravity.
LOL!
Did some research with Google about this did you?
Can't help but notice this article is only about walking and not flipping through the air to slay dragons.
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Post by river82 on Jan 27, 2020 21:41:49 GMT
never seen a woman walk differently from me or any one else unless she was doing it on purpose. The hip joint has two parts: the ball of the femur, which rotates within a socket in the pelvic bone, called the acetabulum.If you look at the hip joint from above, you can see that the acetabulum in men is aligned straight across the ball of the femur, while the acetabulum in women tends to angle forward. This is called the acetabular anteversion angle, and women tend to have higher anteversion than men.This means that in women, the pelvic bone needs to move along with the femur as women walk, as compared to men where the pelvic bone stays roughly in the same position while men walk.Now looking from the front again, you will notice something different when it comes to the angle of the femur. In men the femur has a small angle moving in towards the centre of the body, but in women, the angle of the femur is much larger. This angle is called the Q-angle and on average, the Q angle is 4.6 degrees greater in women than in men. This doesn’t seem like a lot but it makes a big difference in how women walk.In women, a combined result of a wider pelvis, greater anteversion of the acetabulum and higher Q-angle, means that the pelvis has to rotate in order to allow a woman to walk.Combine this rotation in real time, and you get the classic hip sway of the female walk.www.docunlock.org/youtube/hipswayWomen walk differently than men. Don't understand why people want to deny it. Of course stuff like DA:2 is ridiculous but equating people pointing out the difference with people wanting to sexualise women, which I gather is what you're suggesting from your comparisons to Cassandra's jaw, is ridiculous.
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Post by melbella on Jan 27, 2020 21:59:07 GMT
Can't help but notice this article is only about walking and not flipping through the air to slay dragons. Isn't most time in a DA game spent walking/running and not slaying dragons? I'd rather the movements be accurate (or at least, more accurate) for the majority of the game than base the sameness (which, you'll note, tends to default to male) on the 5 minutes where they don't actually matter.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 28, 2020 0:00:57 GMT
LOL!
Did some research with Google about this did you?
Can't help but notice this article is only about walking and not flipping through the air to slay dragons.
LOL!
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 28, 2020 0:33:48 GMT
Here's my 2¢ worth on animations... I guess I'm not nearly as picky about them as a lot of folks here apparently are. In a 3rd person game, though, I do care about basic walking and running animations - because I spend most of the game looking at them. I'm happiest when I don't notice them at all, because to me that means it looks normal and natural. If I notice my character is walking/running a certain way, that means there's something unusual or unique about it. I will also admit that I never really noticed walking/running animations until I loaded DA2 for the first time. I found it painful and difficult to watch, which made it a lot harder for me to get through the game. When I saw that the same one was used for DAI, I chose not to buy the game - I did pick it up a couple of years later on sale through amazon, for $20 including all of the DLCs. Rundown of some BioWare titles: ME1 - one of my faves. Totally unremarkable, looked like efficient mobility, as a highly trained soldier should. ME2 - no idea why they changed it, but the new one had a lot of shoulder and arm movement added. It's... kind of weird. ME3 - better than ME2's, but I'd have been perfectly content sticking with ME1's throughout. MEA - big improvement all around, imho. The male and female walk/run animations are different, but the differences are subtle, and they both look like efficient mobility. DAO - no prob. Didn't notice it. DA2 - Hawke works waaay too hard to draw sexual attention. Poor thing is apparently desperate, needing to wiggle and waddle everywhere she goes. DAI - I did sort of figure out how to play the game without having to see it all the time - I keep the camera at an angle so she's walking diagonally across the screen and I don't have to see it from directly behind her. So - this thread might have been useful after all. It did provide an opportunity for people to express their thoughts about animations.
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Post by Frost on Jan 28, 2020 2:05:56 GMT
Hmmm, are you sure that differences in walk are not that noticeable? Especially in games or animated features that usually make movements more pronounced and then - not infrequently - apply animations to skeleton of models not necessarily compatible with them? You know, like here (start of the video: female Inquisitor - male walk cycle, Cassandra - female walk cycle): I dislike both walks in the video. The male walk looks awkward and bow-legged on the female Inquisitor. The female walk is a runway walk (walking in a straight line with one foot in front of the other).
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 28, 2020 2:23:06 GMT
Can't help but notice this article is only about walking and not flipping through the air to slay dragons. Isn't most time in a DA game spent walking/running and not slaying dragons? I'd rather the movements be accurate (or at least, more accurate) for the majority of the game than base the sameness (which, you'll note, tends to default to male) on the 5 minutes where they don't actually matter. UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH The broader point I am making by bringing up the dragons and magic is that Thedas is a fantasy setting where MANY aspects of our reality do not apply, including particular points of anatomy and biology. Appealing to 'accuracy' makes no sense. Accurate to what? We are not on Earth, and it can even be argued that the 'humans' of Thedas are not the same species as us. Even if I accept that the "human" males and females of Thedas need to walk differently (and I don't), there's no real-world point of comparison for elves, dwarves or Qunari. The simplest solution is to design animations that will work best for everybody, and I maintain that anyone who gets upset about a 'female' character walking the same as a 'male' one has far too much time on their hands.
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