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Post by Buckeldemon on Apr 15, 2020 9:54:15 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 15, 2020 11:06:40 GMT
We know the Council knew that Sovereign was a Reaper and that them saying it was a Geth ship was to prevent mass panic. This is shown in the Citadel DLC when the Sovereign archive starts playing that until it recognizes your SPECTRE status. So I think they were making some preparations. AS for not telling Shepard that in ME2, remember Shepard was with Cerberus so they didn't want them knowing what they were up to. Yea hbecause Shep ws awith Cerberus maybe the ythouight the yewre better off not telling them. Even if Shep knew the truth about Sovereign whic hthe yknow Shep knows given they were the ones tha treported Sovereign in the first place
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 15, 2020 11:13:34 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense. I don' tthink it's Shep themselves they'er worried about but Cerberus given tha tthey'er pretty much see nas abit of a terroris tgroup. You do see a lot of what they'er doing through both ME1 and ME2 and that's befoer you end up destroying them in 3
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Post by themikefest on Apr 15, 2020 11:47:03 GMT
Ah yes, don't tell Shepard because he/she is working with a group that is doing something while everyone else does nothing. Anderson tells Shepard it's up to him/her to find a way to stop the reapers. So much for that I trust you crap or I believe you crap. He never cared. The Alliance never cared. The Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard's death. Of course it didn't help that one character, who says Shepard is a friend, made no attempt to inform anyone that Shepard's corpse was in the hands of Cerberus. **** them all. My Shepard welcomed the opportunity to work with Cerberus.
In regards to the council. If they knew Sovereign was a reaper, why not form a group to investigate? Supposedly they went to Ilos. Why didn't they get the so-called prothean expert, or one of the other squadmates to help them?
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 15, 2020 13:36:03 GMT
Ah yes, don't tell Shepard because he/she is working with a group that is doing something while everyone else does nothing. Anderson tells Shepard it's up to him/her to find a way to stop the reapers. So much for that I trust you crap or I believe you crap. He never cared. The Alliance never cared. The Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard's death. Of course it didn't help that one character, who says Shepard is a friend, made no attempt to inform anyone that Shepard's corpse was in the hands of Cerberus. **** them all. My Shepard welcomed the opportunity to work with Cerberus. In regards to the council. If they knew Sovereign was a reaper, why not form a group to investigate? Supposedly they went to Ilos. Why didn't they get the so-called prothean expert, or one of the other squadmates to help them? You probably miss the point because no one negates that Alliance & Council did not do much. The problem is the characterization break that enabled this.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Apr 15, 2020 16:02:08 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense. I don' tthink it's Shep themselves they'er worried about but Cerberus given tha tthey'er pretty much see nas abit of a terroris tgroup. You do see a lot of what they'er doing through both ME1 and ME2 and that's befoer you end up destroying them in 3
Well, all unique Shepards I played to date cleared the failed insane science projects and got a good impression of their MO. Oh, and my very first one was a Sole Survivor, so ME2's premise did even made less sense for her than the others.
Ah yes, don't tell Shepard because he/she is working with a group that is doing something while everyone else does nothing. Anderson tells Shepard it's up to him/her to find a way to stop the reapers. So much for that I trust you crap or I believe you crap. He never cared. The Alliance never cared. The Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard's death. Of course it didn't help that one character, who says Shepard is a friend, made no attempt to inform anyone that Shepard's corpse was in the hands of Cerberus. **** them all. My Shepard welcomed the opportunity to work with Cerberus. In regards to the council. If they knew Sovereign was a reaper, why not form a group to investigate? Supposedly they went to Ilos. Why didn't they get the so-called prothean expert, or one of the other squadmates to help them? You probably miss the point because no one negates that Alliance & Council did not do much. The problem is the characterization break that enabled this. He selectively misses the point. Else his argument won't work.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 15, 2020 16:40:48 GMT
You probably miss the point because no one negates that Alliance & Council did not do much. The problem is the characterization break that enabled this. Characterization break?
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 15, 2020 17:37:08 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense. I don' tthink it's Shep themselves they'er worried about but Cerberus given tha tthey'er pretty much see nas abit of a terroris tgroup. You do see a lot of what they'er doing through both ME1 and ME2 and that's befoer you end up destroying them in 3 We can theorize to our hearts' content about the actual storylines they wrote. The point I made several posts ago is that BioWare was determined to stick Shep w/ Cerberus in ME2, and then proceeded to set up a set of circumstances to make it plausible that Shep would ever associate with a terrorist organization. -They could have written the Alliance - or the turians or the Council or some other species - building and staffing the SR-2. -They could have written the Alliance - or some mad salarian scientist or the Council or whoever/whatever else - reanimating Shepard's corpse (or they could have just left Shep's death and resurrection out altogether). -They could have written the collectors to be hitting all species' remote colonies, and the Council giving Shep a ship and team of Spectres to investigate it. And there's a bazillion other ways they could have developed a premise for ME2. Instead, they made everyone else stupid/incompetent to force Shep to associate with Cerberus and recruit assassins, thieves, and other criminals.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 15, 2020 18:01:39 GMT
I don' tthink it's Shep themselves they'er worried about but Cerberus given tha tthey'er pretty much see nas abit of a terroris tgroup. You do see a lot of what they'er doing through both ME1 and ME2 and that's befoer you end up destroying them in 3 We can theorize to our hearts' content about the actual storylines they wrote. The point I made several posts ago is that BioWare was determined to stick Shep w/ Cerberus in ME2, and then proceeded to set up a set of circumstances to make it plausible that Shep would ever associate with a terrorist organization. -They could have written the Alliance - or the turians or the Council or some other species - building and staffing the SR-2. -They could have written the Alliance - or some mad salarian scientist or the Council or whoever/whatever else - reanimating Shepard's corpse (or they could have just left Shep's death and resurrection out altogether). -They could have written the collectors to be hitting all species' remote colonies, and the Council giving Shep a ship and team of Spectres to investigate it. And there's a bazillion other ways they could have developed a premise for ME2. Instead, they made everyone else stupid/incompetent to force Shep to associate with Cerberus and recruit assassins, thieves, and other criminals. Indeed I'm just asying tha tthat's how I headcanon i tin terms of how I explain how and where Shep is a tany given moment in the trilogy.
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 15, 2020 19:25:51 GMT
You probably miss the point because no one negates that Alliance & Council did not do much. The problem is the characterization break that enabled this. Characterization break? In the final arc of ME1, I had the Council ground me for their reasons it was futile to argue against. I talked to Anderson, who agreed to free my ship with violence, in open defiance of them. I saved the Council*, nomineed that partner in crime for the human Councillor and the four (+ Udina)'s final statement was that the Reapers are a threat and they need me to stop them. Then I read in ME: Ascension** that because the Council fleets were decimated in the battle while Alliance fleets joined lately and emerged largely unharmed, humanity became the dominant military power of the galaxy, with its top representative becoming the most powerful person in the galaxy (because who else, the old Council was discredited hard). Basically, the whole power of the Council was in my pocket. ME2:… *actually I didn't but I could and the game has to accomodate this choice **actually I didn't but it was written there and canon
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2020 19:40:06 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense. We’re already forced to be with Cerberus before we talk to the others.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 15, 2020 20:02:13 GMT
We know the Council knew that Sovereign was a Reaper and that them saying it was a Geth ship was to prevent mass panic. This is shown in the Citadel DLC when the Sovereign archive starts playing that until it recognizes your SPECTRE status. So I think they were making some preparations. AS for not telling Shepard that in ME2, remember Shepard was with Cerberus so they didn't want them knowing what they were up to. That still doesn’t really make sense though. It makes sense that the Council would publicly deny the existence of the reapers since the public at large is served no better panicking over some imminent reaper attack, but it doesn’t serve any purpose to insist on this denial in a private conference with the Spectre that saved the Citadel, who knows full well that they’re spinning bullshit. Even if they didn’t want to divulge the details of these “preparations”, a private acknowledgement of what they’re up against even if they were unable to devote any resources to Shepard’s efforts at the time wouldn’t have been any skin off their backs. I suppose it doesn’t help though that Shepard’s dialogue options are hamstrung in such a way that characters can get away with this without any reasonable counters to their ridiculous statements. Basically, the Council were unnecessarily being extra dickish for no good reason and providing zero incentive for Shepard to support them. As for the Citadel DLC, I chalk a lot of this stuff up to a retroactive fix to certain story problems. The Leviathan DLC’s whole purpose is to do exactly that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2020 20:13:25 GMT
We know the Council knew that Sovereign was a Reaper and that them saying it was a Geth ship was to prevent mass panic. This is shown in the Citadel DLC when the Sovereign archive starts playing that until it recognizes your SPECTRE status. So I think they were making some preparations. AS for not telling Shepard that in ME2, remember Shepard was with Cerberus so they didn't want them knowing what they were up to. That still doesn’t really make sense though. It makes sense that the Council would publicly deny the existence of the reapers since the public at large is served no better panicking over some imminent reaper attack, but it doesn’t serve any purpose to insist on this denial in a private conference with the Spectre that saved the Citadel, who knows full well that they’re spinning bullshit. Even if they didn’t want to divulge the details of these “preparations”, a private acknowledgement of what they’re up against even if they were unable to devote any resources to Shepard’s efforts at the time wouldn’t have been any skin off their backs. I suppose it doesn’t help though that Shepard’s dialogue options are hamstrung in such a way that characters can get away with this without any reasonable counters to their ridiculous statements. Basically, the Council were unnecessarily being extra dickish for no good reason and providing zero incentive for Shepard to support them. As for the Citadel DLC, I chalk a lot of this stuff up to a retroactive fix to certain story problems. The Leviathan DLC’s whole purpose is to do exactly that. They did give Shepard that acknowledgement though, at least the original Council, since they reinstate your SPECTRE status. They can’t do any more since you are part of a terrorist organization. All the issues with this stem from Mac Walter’s favoritism to his pet project organization.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 15, 2020 20:17:23 GMT
That still doesn’t really make sense though. It makes sense that the Council would publicly deny the existence of the reapers since the public at large is served no better panicking over some imminent reaper attack, but it doesn’t serve any purpose to insist on this denial in a private conference with the Spectre that saved the Citadel, who knows full well that they’re spinning bullshit. Even if they didn’t want to divulge the details of these “preparations”, a private acknowledgement of what they’re up against even if they were unable to devote any resources to Shepard’s efforts at the time wouldn’t have been any skin off their backs. I suppose it doesn’t help though that Shepard’s dialogue options are hamstrung in such a way that characters can get away with this without any reasonable counters to their ridiculous statements. Basically, the Council were unnecessarily being extra dickish for no good reason and providing zero incentive for Shepard to support them. As for the Citadel DLC, I chalk a lot of this stuff up to a retroactive fix to certain story problems. The Leviathan DLC’s whole purpose is to do exactly that. They did give Shepard that acknowledgement though, at least the original Council, since they reinstate your SPECTRE status. They can’t do any more since you are part of a terrorist organization. All the issues with this stem from Mac Walter’s favoritism to his pet project organization. Their reinstatement of Spectre status feels more like a backhanded gesture, if anything. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that they flat-out insult Shepard right then and there, insisting that the reapers are the product of some sort of delusion and that Saren tricked both them and the geth. If they didn’t actually believe this even then, then they would know full well that Shepard knows better too, so the whole meeting and this exchange is a farce. I begrudgingly select to accept the Spectre status, but I feel it would probably have been better to tell them to shove it. It’s not like having Spectre status in ME2 is even worth anything, since all of your resources are things you take off the field, buy with your own credits or supplied by Cerberus itself. The love of Cerberus did go a bit far though. I didn’t mind their expansion a bit in ME2, but they were basically the First Order of Mass Effect. Stupidly huge out of nowhere.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2020 20:28:57 GMT
They did give Shepard that acknowledgement though, at least the original Council, since they reinstate your SPECTRE status. They can’t do any more since you are part of a terrorist organization. All the issues with this stem from Mac Walter’s favoritism to his pet project organization. Their reinstatement of Spectre status feels more like a backhanded gesture, if anything. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that they flat-out insult Shepard right then and there, insisting that the reapers are the product of some sort of delusion and that Saren tricked both them and the geth. If they didn’t actually believe this even then, then they would know full well that Shepard knows better too, so the whole meeting and this exchange is a farce. I begrudgingly select to accept the Spectre status, but I feel it would probably have been better to tell them to shove it. It’s not like having Spectre status in ME2 is even worth anything, since all of your resources are things you take off the field, buy with your own credits or supplied by Cerberus itself. The love of Cerberus did go a bit far though. I didn’t mind their expansion a bit in ME2, but they were basically the First Order of Mass Effect. Stupidly huge out of nowhere. Yes, why would they tell the truth to a person who was confirmed killed but then brought back to life through Cerberus dark science? Who knows what kind of listening devices they could have inserted into them, even unknowingly. The only group I wish I could have told to shove it was Cerberus. And I mean in the beginning, not after you finish the mission they gave you. Went completely against all my Shepard’s, especially the Sole Survivor background ones.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 15, 2020 20:40:14 GMT
In the final arc of ME1, I had the Council ground me for their reasons it was futile to argue against. I talked to Anderson, who agreed to free my ship with violence, in open defiance of them. I saved the Council*, nomineed that partner in crime for the human Councillor and the four (+ Udina)'s final statement was that the Reapers are a threat and they need me to stop them. Doesn't Anderson say the same as what Udina said without doing anything? He confirms that in ME2 by saying it's up to Shepard to stop the reapers, then does a 180 at the beginning of ME3 by telling Shepard he needs his/her help stopping the reapers. I have never saved the council. I've never read any of the comics nor do I have any reason to.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 15, 2020 21:54:47 GMT
Their reinstatement of Spectre status feels more like a backhanded gesture, if anything. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that they flat-out insult Shepard right then and there, insisting that the reapers are the product of some sort of delusion and that Saren tricked both them and the geth. If they didn’t actually believe this even then, then they would know full well that Shepard knows better too, so the whole meeting and this exchange is a farce. I begrudgingly select to accept the Spectre status, but I feel it would probably have been better to tell them to shove it. It’s not like having Spectre status in ME2 is even worth anything, since all of your resources are things you take off the field, buy with your own credits or supplied by Cerberus itself. The love of Cerberus did go a bit far though. I didn’t mind their expansion a bit in ME2, but they were basically the First Order of Mass Effect. Stupidly huge out of nowhere. Yes, why would they tell the truth to a person who was confirmed killed but then brought back to life through Cerberus dark science? Who knows what kind of listening devices they could have inserted into them, even unknowingly. The only group I wish I could have told to shove it was Cerberus. And I mean in the beginning, not after you finish the mission they gave you. Went completely against all my Shepard’s, especially the Sole Survivor background ones. Far as I can tell, the Council was never privy to any of that Project Lazarus business, so all that medical science voodoo Cerberus pulled went on totally unbeknownst to them. There’s nothing indicating that they even considered the possibility of Shepard somehow being some sort of cybernetic Manchurian candidate stooge sent to infiltrate them, and given that C-Sec was able to reinstate Shepard’s status along with the biometric scanners confirming Shepard’s identity, it’s basically a case of rumors of their death being greatly exaggerated. If there was any fear that Shepard might be compromised by Cerberus as to make them unreliable, I’m not sure why the Council would even bother offering reinstatement anyway. I assume it would just be a hollow gesture to show good faith to the Alliance and its human councilor, but again, Spectre status in ME2 has little value anyway. Mass Effect’s writers had a penchant for painting the politicians of that universe as conniving and cripplingly short-sighted, and the Council’s the most blatant examples. They don’t become even remotely useful until it’s way too late. I had similar issues with the Cerberus affiliation and how it was handled. I don’t mind having to work with them, but too often the dialogue was just too limited in how you could act. The Sole Survivor background really got the shortest end of the stick there. I really wish there was a lot more you could say, even if that didn’t really affect your affiliation throughout most of the game. Those little things just built up and is why ME2 ended up being my least favorite overall.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 16, 2020 1:42:14 GMT
Then I read in ME: Ascension** that because the Council fleets were decimated in the battle while Alliance fleets joined lately and emerged largely unharmed, humanity became the dominant military power of the galaxy, with its top representative becoming the most powerful person in the galaxy (because who else, the old Council was discredited hard). Jeez. Those numbers don't even work. If enough of the Council fleets were present at the Citadel for their loss to shift the balance of power that much, Sovereign would have been destroyed easily.
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 16, 2020 11:30:18 GMT
In the final arc of ME1, I had the Council ground me for their reasons it was futile to argue against. I talked to Anderson, who agreed to free my ship with violence, in open defiance of them. I saved the Council*, nomineed that partner in crime for the human Councillor and the four (+ Udina)'s final statement was that the Reapers are a threat and they need me to stop them. Doesn't Anderson say the same as what Udina said without doing anything? He confirms that in ME2 by saying it's up to Shepard to stop the reapers, then does a 180 at the beginning of ME3 by telling Shepard he needs his/her help stopping the reapers. I have never saved the council. You mean "I brought you back, it's up to you to do the rest"? It was TIM. Then I read in ME: Ascension** that because the Council fleets were decimated in the battle while Alliance fleets joined lately and emerged largely unharmed, humanity became the dominant military power of the galaxy, with its top representative becoming the most powerful person in the galaxy (because who else, the old Council was discredited hard). Jeez. Those numbers don't even work. If enough of the Council fleets were present at the Citadel for their loss to shift the balance of power that much, Sovereign would have been destroyed easily. Aren't you equating ship artillery from ME1 and ME3?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 17, 2020 11:53:28 GMT
The Council, or the Alliance for that matter as well, does not talk with Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus. Why is Shepard with Cerbreus? Because the Council/Alliance does (or would) not talk with Shepard (or so Jacob/TIM say). Still does not make any more sense. We’re already forced to be with Cerberus before we talk to the others. Exactly
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 17, 2020 11:59:24 GMT
Yes, why would they tell the truth to a person who was confirmed killed but then brought back to life through Cerberus dark science? Who knows what kind of listening devices they could have inserted into them, even unknowingly. The only group I wish I could have told to shove it was Cerberus. And I mean in the beginning, not after you finish the mission they gave you. Went completely against all my Shepard’s, especially the Sole Survivor background ones. Far as I can tell, the Council was never privy to any of that Project Lazarus business, so all that medical science voodoo Cerberus pulled went on totally unbeknownst to them. There’s nothing indicating that they even considered the possibility of Shepard somehow being some sort of cybernetic Manchurian candidate stooge sent to infiltrate them, and given that C-Sec was able to reinstate Shepard’s status along with the biometric scanners confirming Shepard’s identity, it’s basically a case of rumors of their death being greatly exaggerated. If there was any fear that Shepard might be compromised by Cerberus as to make them unreliable, I’m not sure why the Council would even bother offering reinstatement anyway. I assume it would just be a hollow gesture to show good faith to the Alliance and its human councilor, but again, Spectre status in ME2 has little value anyway. Mass Effect’s writers had a penchant for painting the politicians of that universe as conniving and cripplingly short-sighted, and the Council’s the most blatant examples. They don’t become even remotely useful until it’s way too late. I had similar issues with the Cerberus affiliation and how it was handled. I don’t mind having to work with them, but too often the dialogue was just too limited in how you could act. The Sole Survivor background really got the shortest end of the stick there. I really wish there was a lot more you could say, even if that didn’t really affect your affiliation throughout most of the game. Those little things just built up and is why ME2 ended up being my least favorite overall. Indeed it's no surprise really tha tThessia fell tbh given the Council didn' treally start helping Shep until half way through ME3 when the war was well and truly under way and half the galaxy had already been effectively taken out.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by merylisk on May 17, 2020 1:47:12 GMT
Well, it's established canon that mass relays transport stuff through them instantaneously, regardless of distance, with no time dilation. So, in theory, if the ark ships that went to Andromeda had towed a mass relay there with them, they'd have been able to set up an instantaneous link back to the Milky Way.
If the developers DID ever want to try to link the two settings, this could be one way to do it. Like, have an ark ship arrive in Andromeda after the main ones that no one knew about that has a relay in tow, or something like that.
And enough time would have passed in the Milky Way by the time they get to Andromeda and set up the relay that the ME3 endings might not matter as much if they did want to try to incorporate the two settings.
That being said, I don't think they should do this.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 17, 2020 12:40:14 GMT
Well, it's established canon that mass relays transport stuff through them instantaneously, regardless of distance, with no time dilation. So, in theory, if the ark ships that went to Andromeda had towed a mass relay there with them, they'd have been able to set up an instantaneous link back to the Milky Way. If the developers DID ever want to try to link the two settings, this could be one way to do it. Like, have an ark ship arrive in Andromeda after the main ones that no one knew about that has a relay in tow, or something like that. And enough time would have passed in the Milky Way by the time they get to Andromeda and set up the relay that the ME3 endings might not matter as much if they did want to try to incorporate the two settings. That being said, I don't think they should do this. The mass relays are pretty enormous, and assuming that the technology actually allowed anyone to physically move them out of the system they’re tied to, it would probably be too impractical to bring along. In any case, the fact that the Council would never permit it makes it riskier. The turians would definitely destroy anyone that tries to make off with a relay. I don’t think any span of time can really neutralize any of the effects of the endings, because major factions can simply disappear.
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Post by themikefest on May 17, 2020 13:33:07 GMT
And yet the geth were able to move relays to the location they had the geth telescope. https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/79ch6x/mea_spoilers_this_is_how_they_found_our_golden/
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 17, 2020 18:14:51 GMT
Well, it's established canon that mass relays transport stuff through them instantaneously, regardless of distance, with no time dilation. So, in theory, if the ark ships that went to Andromeda had towed a mass relay there with them, they'd have been able to set up an instantaneous link back to the Milky Way. If the developers DID ever want to try to link the two settings, this could be one way to do it. Like, have an ark ship arrive in Andromeda after the main ones that no one knew about that has a relay in tow, or something like that. And enough time would have passed in the Milky Way by the time they get to Andromeda and set up the relay that the ME3 endings might not matter as much if they did want to try to incorporate the two settings. That being said, I don't think they should do this. One of the Andromeda vids talked about how that was kind of the long term goal of the Initiative. Once they got established, they'd build a Mass Relay or something that can connect with one in the Milky Way.
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