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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 19, 2020 17:55:17 GMT
Let's start with the basics. I think the flaw with Mass Effect: Andromeda is that the developers didn't ask the right question at the outset. That question is this: What makes Andromeda different from the Milky Way?
Obviously it has a different history, but what does that mean?
That means Andromeda has different races and cultures. That's obvious of-course but just how different would these races and cultures be? It wouldn't be something as trivial as details about customs or physiology, no, it will be a much more substantial difference and it relates to another important factor. Andromeda has no Reapers. Of-course I'm sure somebody at some point at least pondered the idea of more Reapers in another galaxy but that would be boring and repetitive. So we must then consider what effect the Reapers have had on the Milky Way. I think the biggest effect is that every 50,000 years or so they wipe the slate clean of civilizations. No space-faring society in the original Mass Effect games is more than two or three thousand years old. However the Milky Way has been capable of supporting intelligent life, and thus space faring civilizations, for billions of years. What would happen if nobody had wiped those civilizations out? Would humans or asari or quarians ever evolve? More likely, and this is pretty much a mathematical certainty, those races homeworlds would have been colonized by aliens eons ago. That means that without the Reapers the Milky Way would most likely see an early flurry of intelligent species arise and attain space travel and spread out into neighboring star systems. Until they develop the Mass Relays this process will be slow, even with FTL. However after just a million years or so, even without FTL, the Milky Way could be colonized by even just one race. Every single star system settled. There would then be no room for anyone else to evolve. Instead, especially if some colonies are relatively isolated, you might see speciation of a single race into multiple distinct species or sub-species over time. Without the Mass Relays their interstellar civilizations will be limited in their structure over space and time because communication and travel to the distant corners of the "empire" will just be too costly and long. Given that the Milky Way seems to support many intelligent species at the same we can gather that in the Mass Effect universe intelligent life is relatively common and inevitable. So in the Andromeda Galaxy's early history there must have been several species that evolved and attained space travel and even FTL. Perhaps they never invented the Mass Relays because that might have been a unique invention of the Reapers, the product of their infinite lifespan and machine intelligence. Or perhaps they did invent them, but the resource needed to construct them is rarer in Andromeda, or some other reason. Instead Andromeda could be a galaxy-sized city of sorts, with every single star, every one, bearing the marks of intelligent life. Several civilizations, spread out from a single origin point in their particular region of the galaxy, and each broken down into several sub-races or mini-empires or civilizations only dimly aware of one another. There is no Mass Relay network and so no Council. No true "Galactic Civilization" just a galaxy filled with dozens or hundreds of little empires spanning a few clusters at the most, with gulfs of more disorganized space in between some of them. Contested systems perhaps? Some wiped clean with terrible super weapons (think black holes and stars turned into directed energy beams). The societies are at the oldest more than several billion years old, or at least, they can trace their ancestry back that far. You'd have aliens specially evolved to live in zero-gravity environments, who did so in the eons before artificial gravity was ever discovered and thus never had a use for it. Some might have replaced themselves with machines, be they hostile or passive. Swarms of self-replicating bots, no less destructive than the Reapers but not so haughty, might have also turned swaths of the galaxy into dull, dim, wastelands of grey goo and burnt-out stars, their spread stopped only by the deployment of rival replicators that neutralized one another. With tens of millions of years to plan vast work projects, some societies must surely have achieved constructs that vastly dwarf the Citadel or Omega. Entire stars, even solar systems, covered over with swarms of solar panels (a dyson sphere/swarm). Ring worlds that stretch across light years. Disc worlds and artificial planets with an individual size and mass so great that time differentials at the surface and the inner core are significant. Some would be occupied by jam-packed societies that number in the trillions, who long ago converted entire planets into space-born habitats. Other star systems might be barren ghost towns... filled to the brim with the relics of ancient and advanced societies that died out for one reason or another. Imagine driving the Nomad across a field of grass, alien organisms darting out of the way, alien trees swaying the distance... but as you gaze toward the horizon the ground curves upward, and then over your head. Rather than a mere uncharted world you are exploring a bottled up wilderness in a vast O'Neil Cylinder. An entire ecosystem, filled with rivers, lakes, and mountains, contained with an an abandoned super structure. When you dig into the ground you eventually break into long lost service tunnels and access shafts. Somewhere down there is the machinery that keeps this forest-in-a-bottle running and if you can find it and use it, this place would be ideal to settle. A mobile planet. Or a fleet of them. That might not be so easy though. The Andromeda Initiative met with problems on the long journey. Some systems had to be sacrificed and so when you awoke you found supplies drained, people lost in cryo-sleep. A desperate situation. In trying to cope with disaster the real heroes and experts of the expedition, the best of the best, were killed. Ryder and his/her compatriots aren't the A-team... they are the B-team. Back up. Temporary replacements to fill in for the main characters while they are doing cool shit on away missions... but since they are dead you have to fill in double duty. Ryder and co are younger than Shepard and his companions. Less experience. Not so famous. Not the best of the best or the top of their class. Never destined for greatness. Not the son or daughter of an Admiral, legendary cop, or Matriarch. Competent, but nothing special. Now they'll have to rise to the occasion. They bring youthful enthusiasm and touching naivety to this expedition... but will that optimism survive the struggle that lies ahead? You are stranded in foreign territory with no allies, infrastructure, and no way back home. Limited amounts of water, limited amounts of raw resources to manufacture omni-gel and or medi-gel. The Initiative had counted on the ability to extract raw resources from the natural environment... but the planners of this project didn't think things through. You find that, as described above, Andromeda is an ancient and used up place. A barren ghetto where all the easily obtained minerals and raw elements were long-since used up. Think of the game Total Annihilation; a galaxy of derelict scavengers who constantly recycle the aging machinery all around them because there's almost nothing left to dig up out of the ground. Water bearing comets went extinct 200 millions years ago. Metal rich asteroids? The last of those was pulverized into dust and pounded into some many deck panels 30 million years ago. Even gas giants have become withered husks in many cases, their atmospheres processed into needed fuels and chemical compounds in ages since long forgotten. Alone and afraid, on borrowed time, you are but an inquisitive ant probing a decadent but decaying mansion. A pest, but also the first new thing to inch its away across the floor tiles in half a billion years. The residents find you interesting, at least for now. Very interesting. Over the course of the long voyage the VI's managing the sleeper ships had oh so much time to run simulations and calculate pi. Using what was given to them in the aftermath of 2183, specifically the scans of the Conduit and its counterpart on Ilos, your VI's have developed schematics for your own mass relays. You need only enough element zero and some other assorted materials. Find some hospitable planets (or whatever else) in the local clusters and link them up. You'll need to since you have to search so far and wide to find anything remotely hospitable or usable. Since most everything has been looted already you'll have to make contact with the locals and start trading. At first it is easy make some bargains for basic essentials. The locals are plenty curious about you and your original home just giving them cultural data is enough. That won't last though. In going on an expedition to uncharted territory, far from home, we are going to experience shortages on basic necessities. Water, food, medical care, mundane comforts. Andromeda should have embraced this aspect of exploration by thrusting the player into a position of intense responsibility, with a monumental task to achieve, and not enough resources to accomplish it. Challenge the player as the narrative challenges the characters to figure out the right balance of pragmatism, diplomacy, and ruthlessness to survive. Not only are the explorers on their own with no hope of resupply or rescue, but they're also a destabilizing element in this new environment. Over the billions of years an equilibrium was reached and we have just disrupted it, just by being there. Our arrival has sparked wars and unrest and people are dying. Ryder and co come to realize that their responsibility is not just to the members of the expedition, but to the people of all this new (old) civilization. Our choice to venture out into the unknown and explore has had consequences for us and for the people we meet. You could tip the balance for this side or that side... you have new technologies and new ways of thinking. You have Mass Relays. Soon everyone will want one. Whichever group can get them from you first, either by transaction, by theft, or by outright conquest, will have in their possession the key to crafting Andromeda's first true galactic government (or empire). Who will that be? Just by coming to Andromeda it is clear you will forever shape its destiny and its future history. The Mass Effect principle at work here as we see that little things have long, complicated consequences. Everything is going to change and it starts with you. A new golden age could begin with your arrival, or a dark and terrible one. Only your decisions will determine what history will be written.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 13:28:45 GMT
Let's start with the basics. I think the flaw with Mass Effect: Andromeda is that the developers didn't ask the right question at the outset. That question is this: What makes Andromeda different from the Milky Way?
Obviously it has a different history, but what does that mean?
OK, let's examine your examinaton:
We don't actually know if there IS even other life "out there." Any evidence we have that earth has been visited by any advanced aliens species is still pretty sketchy despite many ardent "alien" enthusiasts continually scrounging the earth for solid evidence of it. Since we've never actually encountered life that emerged on another planet, how can we truthfully say with confidence that it would be so radically different from the varieties of life we have here on earth? The only truthful answer is "We don't actually know."
Mass Effect 3 told us that the Reapers continually left species evolve naturally until they surpassed a certain evolutionary point. They left humans evolve naturally and the first human evolutionary ancestor is said to have emerged about 5.8 million years ago (ref: www.newscientist.com/article/dn9989-timeline-human-evolution/).
The Milky Way itself is thought to be about 11 billion years old, but the oldest rocks found on earth are about 4.4 billion years old and the oldest signs of "biotic life" are about 4.1 billion years old and the first signs of multicellular life are only 800 million years old. (Ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Calendar) and the first Primates appeared only 65 million years ago. So, to assume that "the Milky Way has been capable of supporting intelligent life and space faring civilizations for billions of years" is a big stretch based on the available evidence of how long it has taken earth to become capable of supporting even just one intelligent species that is only really just starting to become "space-faring."
Since the rest of your post is based on the above faulty premise, it goes nowhere. Bioware made a set of different assumptions (and IMO, more accurate assumptions) about how long it would have taken life to evolve in Andromeda than they did when they set up ME1. Furthermore, they did introduce us to one very highly evolved and highly intelligent species - the Jaardan... who are capable of creating new "other" intelligent species from scratch as well as all sorts of varieties of organic life. We just haven't met them in person yet... and we've only explored probably 1% of a single cluster of that galaxy.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 27, 2020 19:06:48 GMT
We don't actually know if there IS even other life "out there. UpUpAgain, why do you even bother? You can't even grasp that we're talking about Mass Effect here and not real life and then you try to have a discussion with me? For what purpose? Oh boy, this is off to a bad start. So, to assume that "the Milky Way has been capable of supporting intelligent life and space faring civilizations for billions of years" Mass Effect's portrayal of the Milky Way says that it does and has. We find ruins of alien civilizations millions or billions of years old all over the place. Since the rest of your post is based on the above faulty premise, You have no idea what you're talking about and don't even seem to understand what this thread is about or what idea is being put up for examination. Thanks for playing all the same.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 19:40:50 GMT
We don't actually know if there IS even other life "out there. UpUpAgain, why do you even bother? You can't even grasp that we're talking about Mass Effect here and not real life and then you try to have a discussion with me? For what purpose? Oh boy, this is off to a bad start. So, to assume that "the Milky Way has been capable of supporting intelligent life and space faring civilizations for billions of years" Mass Effect's portrayal of the Milky Way says that it does and has. We find ruins of alien civilizations millions or billions of years old all over the place. Since the rest of your post is based on the above faulty premise, You have no idea what you're talking about and don't even seem to understand what this thread is about or what idea is being put up for examination. Thanks for playing all the same. What ruins millions and billions of years old do we find in any ME game?
Liara struggles to find Prothean ruins, which are clearly not "millions and billions of years old." Liara clearly states that there "even less" to be found on the civilizations that came before... because the Reapers allegedly wiped the galaxy clean of evidence after each cycle. AFAIK, the planetary descriptions do not describe any ruins that old anywhere in ME1. They tell us of colonies established by the Asari, etc. We do have a derelict Reaper or two in ME2, but even that is identified as having been there for only 37 million years... not even a single billion.
There is no indication within Mass Effect of how long it took each civilization to evolve from the basic building blocks of life.
You're making faulty assumptions about what is even presented in the OT.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 27, 2020 19:45:04 GMT
We do have a derelict Reaper or two in ME2, but even that is identified as having been there for only 37 million years... not even a single billion. The derelict Reaper dubbed the Leviathan of Dis was dated to be a billion years old, so the Reapers have been around for at least a billion years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 20:02:46 GMT
We do have a derelict Reaper or two in ME2, but even that is identified as having been there for only 37 million years... not even a single billion. The derelict Reaper dubbed the Leviathan of Dis was dated to be a billion years old, so the Reapers have been around for at least a billion years. ... I was just looking that up. There is STILL a big difference in time between saying 1 billion years ago (for the Leviathan species to hit it's apex and the AI to have created the Reapers; and it is described the first) and saying that ruins of other intelligent species are being found all over the galaxy that are "billions of years" old.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 27, 2020 20:03:44 GMT
What ruins millions and billions of years old do we find in any ME game? [/div] I am going to go through the wiki and quote every planet description which talks about long lost civilizations. Prepare to have your mind blown. Maybe this time you'll realize you're not as smart or informed as you think you are and learn something. Stay tuned.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 20:14:28 GMT
What ruins millions and billions of years old do we find in any ME game? [/div] I am going to go through the wiki and quote every planet description which talks about long lost civilizations. Prepare to have your mind blown. Maybe this time you'll realize you're not as smart or informed as you think you are and learn something. Stay tuned. [/quote][/div]
Be sure to directly quote the ones that say "billions of years old" The ME Timeline in the Wiki starts with Leviathan as "unknown to 1 billion years BCE." If there was something that actually is dated prior to that, it should be on the timeline as a specific event.
None of it talks of ruins "billions of years old." The oldest civilization mentioned is one associated with the planet Etamis at 20 to 40 million years old. There is also a non-specific reference regarding Siano - "The sunward hemisphere of the tidally-locked world of Siano bears the remnants of a complex of artificial structures in the north that are millennia old. Located on the opposite side are bunkers of radioactive waste ostensibly produced by primitive fission power plants. It is unclear if the structures were built on Siano before or after it entered the Dirada system millions of years ago."
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 27, 2020 23:55:18 GMT
Be sure to directly quote the ones that say "billions of years old" ] I don't need to because that is irrelevant and unnecessary. It is a baseless demand on your part rooted in your lack of knowledge or understanding about galactic, stellar, or planetary evolution. There is absolutely no reason to presume the galaxy was less hospitable 5 billion years ago than it is now. Naturally, the farther back into the past something happened the harder it will be to find evidence of it. The oldest relatively solid dating we have is of the Leviathan of Dis, which goes back nearly a billion years, so somewhere around 750 million to 950 million years ago. Approximately. For the sake of argument let's pretend you are right and the galaxy has only been producing intelligent life for the last 50 million years or so. That would still generate a HUGE difference between the Milky Way and Andromeda since, and I repeat, no space faring civilization in Mass Effect is older than about 3000 years or so, the oldest being the asari and salarians. That's not even 1% of a million years much less 10 million years or 37 million, ect... So, you have failed to make any kind of informed point, sir. Now, as for the evidence of past civilizations: Klendagon's most striking feature is, of course, the Great Rift valley that stretches across the southern hemisphere. What is most fascinating about the Rift is that it does not appear to be natural. The geological record suggests it is the result of a "glancing blow" by a mass accelerator round of unimaginable destructive power. This occurred some thirty-seven million years ago.Atahil is only of note for a few scattered craters. Though flattened by millions of years of high pressure, the marks of orbital bombardment strikes are unmistakable. Etamis and Linossa also show traces of this same eventThe initial flyby probe of Armeni detected multiple areas at the equator with oddly regular surface protrusions.
Closer investigation revealed these as millions of elaborate crypts a few meters below the surface, left by a long-extinct space-faring species called the zeioph.Junthor is a large terrestrial planet with a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and chlorine. The surface is mainly composed of aluminum with deposits of nickel. Surveyors found the ruins of a technical civilization near the equator — evidently the colony of an ancient spacefaring race. The ruins had subsided to almost nothing — merely wind hollowed husks of arcologies and other megastructures.Helyme is thought to be the homeworld of the arthenn, a spacefaring species which disappeared approximately 300,000 years ago. Gaelon and Epho show traces of the same eventGamayun is a hydrogen-helium gas giant with six large, icy moons. The outermost one, Gigula, is of note for a well-preserved wreckage of an ancient starship that was recovered by a turian military surveyor. Little information has been released to the public on the vessel, aside from a scholarly paper regarding how the internal layout suggests a horizontally-oriented race.VecchioOn a recent tour, the Alliance surveyor ship Kupe discovered a group of partial graves hidden in the equatorial mountain ranges. The ancient skeletons in the burial sites were obviously humanoid but incomplete and poorly preserved, which has made them difficult to identify. DaratarThere are indications of ancient mining operations, but any structures have long since been buried or worn away by the planet's seasonal dust storms.Bothros is home to a scientific curiosity. Evidence of a primate-like spacefaring civilization was found frozen in its equatorial ice, ranging from melted fragments of metal to preserved remains of the creatures still wearing suits for extra-vehicular activity. Further exploration revealed that their habitation centers were vaporized by orbital bombardments from railgun-like weapons hitting with a force of approximately 120 kilotons of TNT. Preying Mouth is a ship-killing enigma, the Bermuda Triangle of the Terminus Systems. There are many theories why ships never return from there: undetectable space debris; old disruptor torpedoes and magnetic mines from a long-forgotten war; even miniature black holes. But what is clear is that too many ships have been lost there for it to be happenstance.Aphras is a "heavenly twin," a planet in a star system that has not one but two worlds of sufficient mass to retain an [sic] nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere within the habitable life zone of its parent star. Fossil evidence shows abundant vertebrates and evidence of a sapient terrestrial avian species in its Bronze Age.
However, the only trace of contemporary life on the planet is that of single-celled organisms in its seas. All else has suffered from an extinction event -- a series of massive impacts that vaporized vast quantities of water and lofted dust into its atmosphere. Early theories that this event was a collision with a fragmenting asteroid have now been discounted -- the impact craters were aimed directly at habitation centers. Tosal Nym and shows traces of this event as wellJoab was home to a primate-like spacefaring civilization as well as abundant flora and fauna. However, this can only be deduced from time capsules put into the ground well outside habitation centers -- all cities and detectable dwellings were targeted in a massive orbital bombardment that turned them into vapor. Mizraim and Laban show traces of this eventSianoThere is evidence that a complex of artificial structures once existed in the north of the sunward-facing hemisphere, but they have been badly degraded by millennia of heat and radiation. Several bunkers of radioactive waste, apparently byproducts of primitive fission plants, have been discovered on the far side.Anjea is a typical ammonia-methane ice giant. Traces of chlorine in the atmosphere give it a distinct green tint. Penetrating scans have revealed large numbers of hollow, unpowered objects with dimensions of 3.14 by 12.56 by 28.26 meters circulating in the equatorial cloud bands. These objects appear to have "sails" or "wings" attached, allowing them to be borne aloft by Anjea's winds.Eingana is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the inusannon.Carcosa was thought to be a naturally occurring hothouse planet until an asari expedition discovered palatial ruins on its barren surface. Likely the seat of an ancient city, the crumbling edifice dates back more than 2.7 million years.Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis," the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. Ploba is the second, and by far the larger, of Antaeus' two gas giants. Active scans by survey ships have returned tantalizing indications of massive, solid structures deep within the atmosphere, too regular in pattern to be anything natural.Chasca's ring is unique. It appears to be, for lack of a better term, a massive piece of alien "installation art." The rings are made of small pieces of synthetic material, and are almost invisible from space. From the ground, they catch and scatter the light of Matano in picturesque ways. It is not known who created the ring or when.Farcrothu is only distinguished by its moons; several dozen of them have been sculpted into the likenesses of an arthropodal alien race not yet known to Council science. Radiometric dating suggests the moons were worked over half a million years ago.Logan is a standard hydrogen-helium gas giant. The survey team who charted the system twenty years ago reported many strange disturbances in Logan's cloud bands, suggesting many remarkably large solid objects were present beneath the cloud tops.Mind you, I left out lots of suspicious planet descriptions that might hint at historical Reaper cycles but which are too vague.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 0:35:00 GMT
Be sure to directly quote the ones that say "billions of years old" ] I don't need to because that is irrelevant and unnecessary. It is a baseless demand on your part rooted in your lack of knowledge or understanding about galactic, stellar, or planetary evolution. There is absolutely no reason to presume the galaxy was less hospitable 5 billion years ago than it is now. Naturally, the farther back into the past something happened the harder it will be to find evidence of it. The oldest relatively solid dating we have is of the Leviathan of Dis, which goes back nearly a billion years, so somewhere around 750 million to 950 million years ago. Approximately. For the sake of argument let's pretend you are right and the galaxy has only been producing intelligent life for the last 50 million years or so. That would still generate a HUGE difference between the Milky Way and Andromeda since, and I repeat, no space faring civilization in Mass Effect is older than about 3000 years or so, the oldest being the asari and salarians. That's not even 1% of a million years much less 10 million years or 37 million, ect... So, you have failed to make any kind of informed point, sir. Now, as for the evidence of past civilizations: Klendagon's most striking feature is, of course, the Great Rift valley that stretches across the southern hemisphere. What is most fascinating about the Rift is that it does not appear to be natural. The geological record suggests it is the result of a "glancing blow" by a mass accelerator round of unimaginable destructive power. This occurred some thirty-seven million years ago.Atahil is only of note for a few scattered craters. Though flattened by millions of years of high pressure, the marks of orbital bombardment strikes are unmistakable. Etamis and Linossa also show traces of this same eventThe initial flyby probe of Armeni detected multiple areas at the equator with oddly regular surface protrusions.
Closer investigation revealed these as millions of elaborate crypts a few meters below the surface, left by a long-extinct space-faring species called the zeioph.Junthor is a large terrestrial planet with a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and chlorine. The surface is mainly composed of aluminum with deposits of nickel. Surveyors found the ruins of a technical civilization near the equator — evidently the colony of an ancient spacefaring race. The ruins had subsided to almost nothing — merely wind hollowed husks of arcologies and other megastructures.Helyme is thought to be the homeworld of the arthenn, a spacefaring species which disappeared approximately 300,000 years ago. Gaelon and Epho show traces of the same eventGamayun is a hydrogen-helium gas giant with six large, icy moons. The outermost one, Gigula, is of note for a well-preserved wreckage of an ancient starship that was recovered by a turian military surveyor. Little information has been released to the public on the vessel, aside from a scholarly paper regarding how the internal layout suggests a horizontally-oriented race.VecchioOn a recent tour, the Alliance surveyor ship Kupe discovered a group of partial graves hidden in the equatorial mountain ranges. The ancient skeletons in the burial sites were obviously humanoid but incomplete and poorly preserved, which has made them difficult to identify. DaratarThere are indications of ancient mining operations, but any structures have long since been buried or worn away by the planet's seasonal dust storms.Bothros is home to a scientific curiosity. Evidence of a primate-like spacefaring civilization was found frozen in its equatorial ice, ranging from melted fragments of metal to preserved remains of the creatures still wearing suits for extra-vehicular activity. Further exploration revealed that their habitation centers were vaporized by orbital bombardments from railgun-like weapons hitting with a force of approximately 120 kilotons of TNT. Preying Mouth is a ship-killing enigma, the Bermuda Triangle of the Terminus Systems. There are many theories why ships never return from there: undetectable space debris; old disruptor torpedoes and magnetic mines from a long-forgotten war; even miniature black holes. But what is clear is that too many ships have been lost there for it to be happenstance.Aphras is a "heavenly twin," a planet in a star system that has not one but two worlds of sufficient mass to retain an [sic] nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere within the habitable life zone of its parent star. Fossil evidence shows abundant vertebrates and evidence of a sapient terrestrial avian species in its Bronze Age.
However, the only trace of contemporary life on the planet is that of single-celled organisms in its seas. All else has suffered from an extinction event -- a series of massive impacts that vaporized vast quantities of water and lofted dust into its atmosphere. Early theories that this event was a collision with a fragmenting asteroid have now been discounted -- the impact craters were aimed directly at habitation centers. Tosal Nym and shows traces of this event as wellJoab was home to a primate-like spacefaring civilization as well as abundant flora and fauna. However, this can only be deduced from time capsules put into the ground well outside habitation centers -- all cities and detectable dwellings were targeted in a massive orbital bombardment that turned them into vapor. Mizraim and Laban show traces of this eventSianoThere is evidence that a complex of artificial structures once existed in the north of the sunward-facing hemisphere, but they have been badly degraded by millennia of heat and radiation. Several bunkers of radioactive waste, apparently byproducts of primitive fission plants, have been discovered on the far side.Anjea is a typical ammonia-methane ice giant. Traces of chlorine in the atmosphere give it a distinct green tint. Penetrating scans have revealed large numbers of hollow, unpowered objects with dimensions of 3.14 by 12.56 by 28.26 meters circulating in the equatorial cloud bands. These objects appear to have "sails" or "wings" attached, allowing them to be borne aloft by Anjea's winds.Eingana is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the inusannon.Carcosa was thought to be a naturally occurring hothouse planet until an asari expedition discovered palatial ruins on its barren surface. Likely the seat of an ancient city, the crumbling edifice dates back more than 2.7 million years.Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis," the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. Ploba is the second, and by far the larger, of Antaeus' two gas giants. Active scans by survey ships have returned tantalizing indications of massive, solid structures deep within the atmosphere, too regular in pattern to be anything natural.Chasca's ring is unique. It appears to be, for lack of a better term, a massive piece of alien "installation art." The rings are made of small pieces of synthetic material, and are almost invisible from space. From the ground, they catch and scatter the light of Matano in picturesque ways. It is not known who created the ring or when.Farcrothu is only distinguished by its moons; several dozen of them have been sculpted into the likenesses of an arthropodal alien race not yet known to Council science. Radiometric dating suggests the moons were worked over half a million years ago.Logan is a standard hydrogen-helium gas giant. The survey team who charted the system twenty years ago reported many strange disturbances in Logan's cloud bands, suggesting many remarkably large solid objects were present beneath the cloud tops.Mind you, I left out lots of suspicious planet descriptions that might hint at historical Reaper cycles but which are too vague. I still don't see anything described as being "billions of years" old. It's a big stretch to go from things described consistently as being less that 1 billion years old to saying there are numerous ruins found that are "billions of years old."
Your premise that grows from this faulty assumption is that all the civilizations having been advanced for "billions of years" in the Andromeda galaxy would have stripped that galaxy of all it's resources because there were no Reapers to keep them in check. As for the rest, much of it sounds very similiar to what was already written in ME:A (e.g. about Ryder being the B-team). We have also clearly upset the balance of power in the galaxy simply because now the Angara are aware of their actual creation and the purpose of the Remnant tech in their midst.
All in all, I don't see an improvement with your version. It seems to me to be just a "remake" for the sake of remaking it; and I don't see the point of going back and rewriting ME:A anymore than I see a real point to rewriting the OT. Let's just move forward from where we are already at. There is nothing that precludes the AI from now developing tech that enables them to branch out into adjacent clusters and nothing that precludes them from encountering a variety of different species in various stages of their evolutionary timeline. Personally, I'm very curious about the Jaardan, who have evolved sufficient to have learned how to create life from scratch.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 29, 2020 20:35:43 GMT
I still don't see anything described as being "billions of years" old. I explained why it is unnecessary to find a civilization from a billion+ years ago. I explained how even a timespan a tiny fraction of that, of which we have many examples, would still illustrate the same point I'm making. I'm sorry you can't wrap your head around this. I am not making any assumptions but you are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 20:48:27 GMT
I still don't see anything described as being "billions of years" old. I explained why it is unnecessary to find a civilization from a billion+ years ago. I explained how even a timespan a tiny fraction of that, of which we have many examples, would still illustrate the same point I'm making. I'm sorry you can't wrap your head around this. I am not making any assumptions but you are. I'm sorry that you're unwilling to engage in any sort of academic discussion about your ideas but are so defensive that you would rather wage insults at me. I hope you get the precise responses you're looking for. So far, I"m the only one who has bothered to even respond (save Hanako's single post so far). To now answer the first question you post... No, I truly don't know why I even bothered.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 2, 2020 16:50:57 GMT
I'm sorry that you're unwilling to engage in any sort of academic discussion about your ideas but are so defensive that you would rather wage insults at me. We can't have an academic discussion when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Here, let me humor you and explain why my premise might be a bad idea or might not be true in the Mass Effect Andromeda continuity. There are two approaches to this: in-universe reasons and out-of-universe reasons, IE: real world development or brand reasons. In the latter case, it could be argued that the kind of galaxy I described is just a bit too novel and weird for audiences to develop any sort of connection to. I don't really agree with this, but it is an argument I can see someone making. Successful fiction needs to appeal to a broad audience and that means, that at least on the surface, it needs to be easily digestible and comprehensible. Most casual players are going to know, at least in a general sense, what a galaxy is and what a solar system is. What "clusters" (of solar systems) are is quickly conveyed to them by the mechanics of the game when they use the galaxy map. However the mega-structures I talk about are in truth a bit more obscure. They are high-concept science fiction and real-world speculation. So perhaps if for whatever reason we don't think we can convey these ideas to the audience then we shouldn't try. Another view is that Andromeda is intended to be a soft-reboot of the franchise. That means that we want it to emulate all the same plot-points and themes of the original games, but with a different coat of paint. So we don't want it to be different. This means we want humanity as a young and upstart race, we want some established alien races that look down on humans, we want a misunderstood enemy race that we discover has depth, and we want a galaxy wide threat which seeks to destroy everything. Structurally, we want a story that takes us from one end of the galaxy to the other, with a central hub where most of the politics takes place. So we want a new galaxy that functions the same as the Milky Way did only the names are different. Thus an Andromeda Galaxy which is fundamentally different in its nature to the Milky Way would be a bad design decision. So with those two approaches in mind, we would have a choice to just present Andromeda as a blank slate and ignore the in-universe reasons that might suggest this doesn't make sense, or we address this head on and have characters realize that Andromeda is different from how it ought to be. Though we could avoid this perhaps by just not having any knowledge of the Reapers in this new game, as without knowledge of them characters are less likely to question why Andromeda resembles the Milky Way. Anyway, to explain in-universe why Andromeda is like the Milky Way we'd need to invent a new progenitor race. They might be a combination of the Protheans and Reapers in concept. For whatever reason they purged Andromeda in the past and then disappeared. Or perhaps we introduce the idea that some natural disaster in Andromeda has been purging it of all advanced life for eons. Maybe we could even resurrect the "Dark Energy" concept that was dropped during ME3's development. Maybe in Andromeda the black hole at the center of the galaxy regularly emits pulses of energy that, while harmless to a primitive species, wrecks absolute havoc on advanced ones and either causes their extinction or else blows them back to the stone age. The ancient progenitors became aware of this phenomena and attempted to stop by building some kind of protection or something in galaxy's core, but they ran out of time. It's up to us to rally the denizens of Andromeda and complete this ancient work to save everyone. Go read this article: The Fermi ParadoxThere are billions of stars in the Milky Way similar to the Sun.[4][5] With high probability, some of these stars have Earth-like planets,[6][7] and if the Earth is typical, some may have already developed intelligent life. Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step the Earth is investigating now. Even at the slow pace of currently envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years.[3] And since many of the stars similar to the Sun are billions of years older, this would seem to provide plenty of time.[8][9]
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 17:00:01 GMT
I'm sorry that you're unwilling to engage in any sort of academic discussion about your ideas but are so defensive that you would rather wage insults at me. We can't have an academic discussion when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Here, let me humor you and explain why my premise might be a bad idea or might not be true in the Mass Effect Andromeda continuity. There are two approaches to this: in-universe reasons and out-of-universe reasons, IE: real world development or brand reasons. In the latter case, it could be argued that the kind of galaxy I described is just a bit too novel and weird for audiences to develop any sort of connection to. I don't really agree with this, but it is an argument I can see someone making. Successful fiction needs to appeal to a broad audience and that means, that at least on the surface, it needs to be easily digestible and comprehensible. Most casual players are going to know, at least in a general sense, what a galaxy is and what a solar system is. What "clusters" (of solar systems) are is quickly conveyed to them by the mechanics of the game when they use the galaxy map. However the mega-structures I talk about are in truth a bit more obscure. They are high-concept science fiction and real-world speculation. So perhaps if for whatever reason we don't think we can convey these ideas to the audience then we shouldn't try. Another view is that Andromeda is intended to be a soft-reboot of the franchise. That means that we want it to emulate all the same plot-points and themes of the original games, but with a different coat of paint. So we don't want it to be different. This means we want humanity as a young and upstart race, we want some established alien races that look down on humans, we want a misunderstood enemy race that we discover has depth, and we want a galaxy wide threat which seeks to destroy everything. Structurally, we want a story that takes us from one end of the galaxy to the other, with a central hub where most of the politics takes place. So we want a new galaxy that functions the same as the Milky Way did only the names are different. Thus an Andromeda Galaxy which is fundamentally different in its nature to the Milky Way would be a bad design decision. So with those two approaches in mind, we would have a choice to just present Andromeda as a blank slate and ignore the in-universe reasons that might suggest this doesn't make sense, or we address this head on and have characters realize that Andromeda is different from how it ought to be. Though we could avoid this perhaps by just not having any knowledge of the Reapers in this new game, as without knowledge of them characters are less likely to question why Andromeda resembles the Milky Way. Anyway, to explain in-universe why Andromeda is like the Milky Way we'd need to invent a new progenitor race. They might be a combination of the Protheans and Reapers in concept. For whatever reason they purged Andromeda in the past and then disappeared. Or perhaps we introduce the idea that some natural disaster in Andromeda has been purging it of all advanced life for eons. Maybe we could even resurrect the "Dark Energy" concept that was dropped during ME3's development. Maybe in Andromeda the black hole at the center of the galaxy regularly emits pulses of energy that, while harmless to a primitive species, wrecks absolute havoc on advanced ones and either causes their extinction or else blows them back to the stone age. The ancient progenitors became aware of this phenomena and attempted to stop by building some kind of protection or something in galaxy's core, but they ran out of time. It's up to us to rally the denizens of Andromeda and complete this ancient work to save everyone. Go read this article: The Fermi ParadoxThere are billions of stars in the Milky Way similar to the Sun.[4][5] With high probability, some of these stars have Earth-like planets,[6][7] and if the Earth is typical, some may have already developed intelligent life. Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step the Earth is investigating now. Even at the slow pace of currently envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years.[3] And since many of the stars similar to the Sun are billions of years older, this would seem to provide plenty of time.[8][9] You clearly don't understand... I'm not going to bother to try to have an academic discussion with you since you insist on posting an insult to my intelligence in every post you've made. As for this last, I stopped reading with the first sentence. You got your wish... have your discussion other people... if any of them will care to post in this thread.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 3, 2020 10:44:11 GMT
I honestly can't wrap my head around the OP at all.
If the Andromeda galaxy, due to a lack of reaper-induced resets, was home to ancient, super advanced civilizations that had drained most of its resources by now, then wouldn't those civilizations very likely also be aware of the Milky Way's existence and have figured out intergalactic travel long before the Andromeda Initiative did?
Also, if the AI successfully reverse-engineered mass relays and could construct their own, the establishment of a relay network would take a lot of time - they'd still have to somehow reach the target cluster that any given relay connects to so that the twin can be put in place. If the task of establishing that network can be completed within the protagonist's life time, then mass relays are obsolete already because some other way must exist to reach the placement points.
And I can't see why the AI's arrival would upset any existing balance of power between galaxy spanning super-empires. The AI has less people than a major present day city, requiring many, many generation to fully spread over even a single planet. Their presence would most likely be utterly meaningless to those alien empires.
There's a reason why Andromeda is so much like the Milky Way. The story was moved to Andromeda to avoid the continuity dilemma caused by ME3's endings but without putting the player into a too unfamiliar environment. That's why most of the Milky Way species were brought along. Andromeda is the Milky Way away from the Milky Way. It's intentional, not accidental.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 3, 2020 11:32:41 GMT
Andromeda would have needed more Lem and less Space Opera - I kinda feel the light entertainment pushed it over the edge. I mean we got holocaust aliens, yes - they were rather evildoer lite as well. As so often they kinda did nothing with the more interesting elements of their story elements like the scourge and the Jardaan and the purpose of the vaults.
The only times I truly glimpsed some interesting bits was with the level designs: The broken planet, the ice planet and its geysers and caves, the desert planet's sinkholes. THAT was alien. The story - not so much.
I mean I never asked for holocaust aliens - my face is really tired from pangalactic threats - I shouldn't have to save the universe each time I play a Bioware game. Take it down a notch, maybe? Or 5? There's an interesting enough story that can be told without hippie aliens, genetic space nazis, what's with the murder and benefactor at hand in the first place? Why does it always have to be some pompous overdone threat?
Instead give us some more intelligent stuff to ponder. Like fermi paradoxons eg. But I guess that's franchises for you. They're set up like a bloddy sitcom with cliffhangers and incomplete story arks to hook you and keep you coming back. A "good" story would do that already.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 3, 2020 17:25:29 GMT
I honestly can't wrap my head around the OP at all. Have you ever heard of the Fermi Paradox? It is a scientific question about the lack of any evidence for alien civilizations. It goes like this: We know that life can evolve in the universe and that intelligent life, technological life, can arise from it. It has happened here. Logic dictates that it should have happened somewhere else in the galaxy wider universe. When we try to conservatively estimate how many times it could have arisen in the Milky Way, even being very pessimistic, we get numbers that indicates possibly thousands or tens of thousands of civilizations arising in the Milky Way alone. This presents another problem though; when we simulate how long it could take even one technological species to colonize the entire Milky Way, even without faster than light travel, we get figures of only a couple million years or so to do so. Which then begs the question, why hasn't some other species done this already? We should see evidence of alien civilizations all around us and should actually not even be here because Earth should have been colonized in the distant past. This is especially glaring because the galaxy is some 12 to 13 billion years old. That is many, many times the couple million years it would take to settle everything. That is many times older than the Earth or Sun. So why hasn't it happened? Say it takes 2 million years to settle every star in the Milky Way. Well, in Mass Effect for example we know that 37 million years ago somebody fired a mass accelerator round at a Reaper which scarred Klendagon. So that civilization, had it not been wiped out, would have had a timespan to colonize the galaxy nearly 20x longer than is necssary to do so. Keep in mind that in Mass Effect faster than light travel is very common and easily developed, so the span of time required to explore and settle every star is far less than 2 million years. Now in the Milky Way, in Mass Effect, we know that no species ever lives long enough to settle the Milky Way entirely because the Reapers wipe them out. In fact, the Reapers are the only race that can be said to have explored the entire Milky Way because as far as we know their Mass Relay system extends from one end of the Milky Way to the other. When we take into account the Reapers, we realize that the Milky Way galaxy is a very unnatural place. It is a controlled system that the Reapers manage, preventing any space faring species from existing for more than a few thousand years. If there were no Reapers, say, then the species that scarred Klendagon would likely still be around today and their civilization would encompass every star. Their civilization would be nearly 40 million years old today. Compare that to the Asari Republics, which as a space faring power are at most about 3,000 years old. That means the asari aren't even 1% as old as the "Klendagonians" would be as of 2183. Now in Andromeda, there are no Reapers. So nobody is purging space faring civilizations every 50,000 years. Thus it should have civilizations many times older than the asari. It should a have civilizations going back millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions of years. That means many civilizations that each have had more than a enough time to settle the entirety of Andromeda. More over, since they aren't Reapers, they wouldn't be constructing Mass Relays and then disappearing into Dark Space to hibernate. They'd be hanging around constructing ever larger cities, power plants, mining operations, and consuming resources. Yet in the game when we get to Andromeda we see worlds and solar systems largely untouched except for a few traces of some ancient progenitor race that isn't around anymore. It's all very reminiscent of what we saw in the Milky Way. It doesn't line up with logic assuming that Andromeda isn't also plagued by the Reapers. If the Andromeda galaxy, due to a lack of reaper-induced resets, was home to ancient, super advanced civilizations that had drained most of its resources by now, then wouldn't those civilizations very likely also be aware of the Milky Way's existence and have figured out intergalactic travel long before the Andromeda Initiative did? Yes. So the question is, why would they stay away? I would hazard a guess that they didn't want to deal with the Reapers. It's a big universe and a galaxy is a big thing. Even if all stars have been settled and exploited, the resources wouldn't be gone. Stars are still burning, producing energy. Some new ones are still forming out of nebulae. Needed materials could always be extracted from the very structures they were used to create. So there isn't any pressing need to go to the Milky Way, except for scientific purposes, and that has the risk of getting into an intergalactic war with the Reapers. If the task of establishing that network can be completed within the protagonist's life time, then mass relays are obsolete already because some other way must exist to reach the placement points. I didn't mean to imply that the whole task could be complete din the protagonist's lifetime. Only begun, kicking off a chain of events, a "mass effect", that will reach into the future. Propelling far beyond the protagonist in both time and space. How exactly this works would depend on how we decide Mass Relays work and whether or not Andromeda has its own version of them. A few "Milky Way Mass Relays" could, say, connect to the edges of a pre-established Andromeda relay network. It could be that several different species invented and constructed mass relays in Andromeda, but war and conflict and mistrust meant their networks don't fully connect to one another, leaving large gaps of inconvenient space in between. Thus the Initiative comes along and fills in these gaps with a comparatively smaller network of their own, that then has the effect of linking all of Andromeda together. With the whole of the galaxy now connected, the balance of power would shift around until a new equilibrium is reached. With new connections between them the established powers have incentive to fight over new territorial lines and resources because the practical distance between them is now shorter. Think of it like this. You are secure in your house because you a have only a front door and a back door. It is easy to guard those and you have total dominion within the interior of your house. This is good because there are zombies outside. Now a tree falls in your backyard and it takes out one of your outer walls. Suddenly the zombies can walk right into your living room and spare bathroom from outside. From the living room they can get into the kitchen and the stairway that leads upstairs, and by walking into the bathroom they can reach the guest bedroom. Suddenly you are not secure in your home. The defenses you had guarding the back door and front door are no longer effective. Your whole house could be claimed by the zombies. Or call them raiders. Or prairie dogs, or just a your hostile neighbors. The tree here is the Andromeda Initiative; relatively harmless on its own or otherwise easily chopped up with your chainsaw, but the hole in the side of your house it unintentionally created is the new Mass Relays they built. The balance of power in and around your house is shifted. To stay alive you might have to block off the stairwell and live only up stairs, half your territory gone to your rivals. There's a reason why Andromeda is so much like the Milky Way. The story was moved to Andromeda to avoid the continuity dilemma caused by ME3's endings but without putting the player into a too unfamiliar environment. That's why most of the Milky Way species were brought along. Andromeda is the Milky Way away from the Milky Way. It's intentional, not accidental. Oh I agree, but I don't like it. It's creatively boring in my opinion.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 3, 2020 18:14:32 GMT
There's a reason why Andromeda is so much like the Milky Way. The story was moved to Andromeda to avoid the continuity dilemma caused by ME3's endings but without putting the player into a too unfamiliar environment. That's why most of the Milky Way species were brought along. Andromeda is the Milky Way away from the Milky Way. It's intentional, not accidental. Oh I agree, but I don't like it. It's creatively boring in my opinion. Definitely. I would've appreciated something more fantastic in terms of SF. Instead, we got more or less more of the same. I said it after ME1 came out and I say it again: Their games may be enjoyable to play, but Bioware is really bad at the SF stuff. The Reapers could've been a cool idea, but they were ruined by crass imagery and ridiculous tropes attached to them (to say nothing of the inconsistent ending setup), all taken across from the fantasy stuff Bioware is actually good at, into a genre where it doesn't fit at all. I guess there was also too much thinking about emotional attachment to characters, and too little thinking about how the world works.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 3, 2020 18:27:51 GMT
Definitely. I would've appreciated something more fantastic in terms of SF. Instead, we got more or less more of the same. I said it after ME1 came out and I say it again: Their games may be enjoyable to play, but Bioware is really bad at the SF stuff. The Reapers could've been a cool idea, but they were ruined by crass imagery and ridiculous tropes attached to them, all taken across from the fantasy stuff Bioware is actually good at, into a genre where it doesn't fit at all. I guess there was also too much thinking about emotional attachment to characters, and too little thinking about how the world works. I've always found the Reapers one of the less interesting aspects of the Mass Effect setting. The stakes they pose are dramatically interesting, but there aren't a whole of ideas on display. What is far more compelling to me is the conflict between humanity and the batarians over selling the traverse. The dance between the Council and humanity over prospective membership; each wanting to maximize what they gain, wary of conceding too much power and influence, but both recognizing the potential benefits of a tighter partnership. The Morning War (at least in conception if not execution) is a lot more compelling to me than the Reaper War. I really don't think ME3 did it justice either (hence my thread about the geth). The motivations of the salarians in their uplifting of the krogan, the reasons for the resulting Krogan Rebellions, and issues over the future fate of the krogan has a lot more depth and emotion than the Reaper War. I wanted ME2 to introduce us to rogue turian colonies in the Terminus that don't bow to the Hieararchy, I wanted to learn what Lysenthi salarians were and why they only existed in the Terminus. What were the other species out there that were opposed to the Council and why were they opposed to it? You could have made a game about any one of these conflicts and fleshed them out with a lot of nuance and, for lack of a better term, humanity. Just think of how complicated it could all get. The batarian Hegemony loses its proxy war with humanity over the Traverse. This weakens them and this leads to internal strife. Desperate to overturn the oppressive Hegemony and its system of slavery, batarian rebels stage terrorist attacks in Council space on Garden Worlds, to force the Council to go to ware with the Hegemony and bring it to an end. A brutal and ruthless tactic, but the result is the end of slavery in batarian space. Was it worth it? Were those desperate rebels justified? Nobody knows, so the player has to decide for themselves. When the quarians, their fleet slowly dying, decide it is time to attack the geth and take back their home world, what are the implications? Nobody likes the geth, but the Council recognizes their right to exist. Does anyone support the quarians, does anyone oppose them? The destruction or subjugation of the geth could turn regions of the galaxy upside down. A reestablished quarian civilization would have large political and economic effects. Who benefits and who loses out? What at first seems like just a conflict between the quarians and geth could quickly involve much of the rest of the galaxy. Why not explore the Spectres and Council more? What does it say about the Council that it employs these agents? Is it justified, is the Council justified or just in its nature? Are they just polite tyrants ruling an empire? Should the whole system be overturned and replaced with something that gives every race a voice? Should every race have a voice, or only every planet? What if we have a planet with a balanced population of several species who are independent? Can they be part of the Council or must interstellar governments be composed of only a single species, rather than dividing them on ideological grounds? One missed opportunity with the Reapers, actually, is the aftermath. What do you do with knowledge of indoctrination? If the Reapers could do it then so could we once we master the technology. Can you ban such a thing? Probably not because somewhere, somebody, will study it. What could be done with it, for good or ill? You could reform criminals and anti-social types into model citizens. You could make model citizens into model consumers. What IS a model citizen anyway? Someone free or someone HAPPY to be ruled over?
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 3, 2020 19:56:12 GMT
If it helps, the Andromeda Galaxy is a good shade younger than the Milky Way, by a few billion years, so in its 10+ billion years of existence, perhaps less than half of that would have been enjoying planets with the capacity to sustain life.
I feel like Mass Effect in general can benefit a great deal more from rewarding exploration with lots of information and environmental storytelling bits, even stuff that is largely trivial to the greater narrative. Horizon Zero Dawn had stuff like this littered throughout the world.
In the end though, I feel like the thing they're constantly trying to retain its focus on is the gunplay, to the point where talking your way out of a fight is not even much of an option anymore. Missions like Major Kyle and the biotic fanatics should have been expanded upon, and perhaps even to the point where aside from the obligatory battle mission against the primary threat, you could avoid killing things for hours on end. As a dialogue fiend, it would've been greatly appreciated to be able to sweet talk/cajole or negotiate your way out of a battle.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 3, 2020 20:34:03 GMT
In the end though, I feel like the thing they're constantly trying to retain its focus on is the gunplay, to the point where talking your way out of a fight is not even much of an option anymore. Missions like Major Kyle and the biotic fanatics should have been expanded upon, and perhaps even to the point where aside from the obligatory battle mission against the primary threat, you could avoid killing things for hours on end. As a dialogue fiend, it would've been greatly appreciated to be able to sweet talk/cajole or negotiate your way out of a battle. A radical idea, but, I wonder if the series wouldn't have been better off if the first Mass Effect was a turn-based RPG and the series stuck with that. The action part of Mass Effect dominates the whole franchise. Agreed about exploration. The Uncharted Worlds in the first game gave the game world a real sense of size and scope. It actually feels like a wilderness out there in the Traverse. It's more impressive than the more detailed, but smaller environments in ME2 and ME3.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 3, 2020 20:47:35 GMT
In the end though, I feel like the thing they're constantly trying to retain its focus on is the gunplay, to the point where talking your way out of a fight is not even much of an option anymore. Missions like Major Kyle and the biotic fanatics should have been expanded upon, and perhaps even to the point where aside from the obligatory battle mission against the primary threat, you could avoid killing things for hours on end. As a dialogue fiend, it would've been greatly appreciated to be able to sweet talk/cajole or negotiate your way out of a battle. A radical idea, but, I wonder if the series wouldn't have been better off if the first Mass Effect was a turn-based RPG and the series stuck with that. The action part of Mass Effect dominates the whole franchise. Agreed about exploration. The Uncharted Worlds in the first game gave the game world a real sense of size and scope. It actually feels like a wilderness out there in the Traverse. It's more impressive than the more detailed, but smaller environments in ME2 and ME3. Perhaps better for a number of the more dedicated RPG fans, but personally I wouldn't have touched the games with a 10 foot pole if it did. I detest turn-based combat to my core. Killing enemies in real-time is something I take a great deal of satisfaction with, but in something like Mass Effect, I prefer to have more flexibility of how little or how often I want that sort of thing to happen, depending on the type of character I like to play.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 4, 2020 0:03:30 GMT
Perhaps better for a number of the more dedicated RPG fans, but personally I wouldn't have touched the games with a 10 foot pole if it did. I detest turn-based combat to my core. Killing enemies in real-time is something I take a great deal of satisfaction with, but in something like Mass Effect, I prefer to have more flexibility of how little or how often I want that sort of thing to happen, depending on the type of character I like to play. Guilty as charged. It comes down to personal taste. When I first heard about Mass Effect I pictured something more like Oblivion, but in space. I didn't know it would be a squad shooter and not be true open-world. I was sold on the dialogue though precisely for the roleplaying. When I imagine how a turn-based Mass Effect would function, I see how it could in some ways offer more variety in powers and how they are used. I also think it would have served the "heat" mechanic on the guns better. In the end I think ME2 dumped the weapon overheat system for good reason; it did not mechanically compliment a third person shooter. To me the defensive powers in ME1 feel like something better suited to a turn based game, where you'd anticipate an enemy unleashing a series of devastating attacks for the next several turns and so you activate shield boost or immunity or barrier to tank the hits. The heat mechanic would then work by limiting the number of turns in a row you can use the attack command, say. I'm a pretty hardcore roleplayer in many ways, so for me the combat has always been a distant second. That's how ME1 can remain my favorite even if over-all I think ME2 did combat better. I care more about my ability to express my character and that the world, as presented in the narrative, make sense and not have too many holes or fictional conveniences. They're gone now, but I'd have loved to see Telltale take on a Mass Effect game in a their hayday. A whole Mass Effect game that is 99% dialogue with just a few scripted combat and exploration sequences.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Mar 4, 2020 1:59:41 GMT
If there were no Reapers, say, then the species that scarred Klendagon would likely still be around today and their civilization would encompass every star. Their civilization would be nearly 40 million years old today Why assume they would still be around? Any number of things could happen to destroy them before they get that far. Or, the opposite. They could have evolved so far as to no longer be around anymore anyway.
In the end though, I feel like the thing they're constantly trying to retain its focus on is the gunplay, to the point where talking your way out of a fight is not even much of an option anymore. Missions like Major Kyle and the biotic fanatics should have been expanded upon, and perhaps even to the point where aside from the obligatory battle mission against the primary threat, you could avoid killing things for hours on end. As a dialogue fiend, it would've been greatly appreciated to be able to sweet talk/cajole or negotiate your way out of a battle.
Um, you don't have to fight your way out (or in) on Major Kyle's mission. You can talk your way out of it and get him to surrender without killing anyone.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 4, 2020 3:22:34 GMT
Why assume they would still be around? Any number of things could happen to destroy them before they get that far. Or, the opposite. They could have evolved so far as to no longer be around anymore anyway. [/p]
[/quote] Why would they disappear? Why would evolving making them disappear? It's very hard for a species to go extinct once it has begun to settle multiple planets. You are going to need to explain your thinking here.
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