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Post by themikefest on Mar 6, 2020 19:06:50 GMT
Disappointed that I don't just join you in railing against ME:A? Why would I be disappointed? The geth/quarian war settlement came a lot closer to the deeper model I suggested than anything in ME1 because you had to do a lot more along the way to earn that option in the first place. For example, you had to save Tali from exile and keep her loyalty. Tali doesn't have to be loyal to get peace.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 19:16:41 GMT
Disappointed that I don't just join you in railing against ME:A? Why would I be disappointed? The geth/quarian war settlement came a lot closer to the deeper model I suggested than anything in ME1 because you had to do a lot more along the way to earn that option in the first place. For example, you had to save Tali from exile and keep her loyalty. Tali doesn't have to be loyal to get peace. !) I don't know... you seem to be. 2) I stand corrected... not that it matters a whole lot. You still have to do a lot more work to get peace than do a "few undeserved favors for the geth" and more than you had to do for any quest in ME1, which still makes it closer to the model I suggested than those quests in ME1 mentioned.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 6, 2020 22:09:16 GMT
I guess the best outcome is that they find a happy balance that keeps both you and me happy, because ultimately we're both fans of the series - the original trilogy anyway - and even though I disagree with you, and others, we're still members of the Mass Effect Krantt... I don't quite agree with you on two things: one that the core of Mass Effect is about AI's or machine life, though I do agree it is one of many core themes. Or that what I outlined contradicts this in anyway. My outline mentioned the possibility of machine life. The details of how much of it there is, its nature, and how it would interact with the Initiative, is an open question. It really isn't prudent to get into details. Whether in Andromeda or a series of sequels to the original trilogy, there is no reason that organic/synthetic conflicts need to disappear and wouldn't remain as a central theme. That said, I recognize what the ending to ME3 was going for, but it is communicated poorly as well as just being written terribly. Walters and Hudson tried to grasp a topic that went way above their ends and the result of a laughable mess. The endings make little sense and aren't explored or explained with any depth. This is another debate though. Anyway, thank your for your donation.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 7, 2020 2:20:43 GMT
Aye, that most likely is why dialogue is so limiting in most modern rpgs. The robust system you described would be an absolute wet dream, alas as you said, that would be a very niche game for a small playerbase. However, I think there might be a compromise. How about a dice roll to determine weather or not you convince Major Kyle? where the charisma provides a modifier, positive or negative? "But whats the point of that? you'll just keep reloading until you win" I can hear in response. Yes you can, but you don't have to. That's up to the player to decide how dynamic they want their experience to be. As you said, I wanted to shove legion into the airlock straight away after he betrayed the crew. It infuriates me to this day that I cannot. It upsets me that Dragon Age Origins is the last Bioware game where you can theoretically lose most of your party due to your actions. However, I also detest, in many cases, the Third Option. Because for me, the third option neuters any sense of tension or stakes. I hated how if I just leave Redcliff and come back after Mage tower I can remove any sense of difficulty for me in terms of what choice to make. Now I don't have to self reflect or put any real thought into it, because I can just take the obvious rainbows decision. Like-wise for the Rannoch choice. I cannot believe for one minute that after 300 years of hostilities, after all the millions of dead, that those two peoples are just gonna stop shooting each other because Shepard screams loud enough (and does the Geth a bunch of favors they arguably don't deserve). I'm sorry, there is no situation where I can buy into that possibility. To me it's either The Geth, or the Quarians, never both. Because yes, while not everything is zero sum, not everything is one or the other, but sometimes, sometimes, it is. Edit: When I first did Legions loyalty mission, I literally stopped the game for a WEEK, because I could not decide which impossible choice to make. Genocide, or Mass forced brainwashing. Both options equally horrible to me. That choice was beautiful, it was perfect. And I remember every second of that week I spent debating myself, cursing Legions processes for being unable to come to concusses. I LOVED how painful it was for me, and I openly cried, a week later when finally, with shaky hand and filled with self loathing, I selected Rewrite... The geth/quarian war settlement came a lot closer to the deeper model I suggested than anything in ME1 because you had to do a lot more along the way to earn that option in the first place. For example, you had to save Tali from exile and keep her loyalty. You had to save General Koris (which is not a favor for the geth). You also had to have a loyal Legion present, which means you had to tolerate his BS in ME2. In short, you were earning respect from the two parties embroiled in the war so that, when push came to shove they might listen to your counsel. That's far more realistic than walking in on Major Kyle, possibly having never met him once, and just telling him he's being an idiot in a "charming" way.
For the Geth/Quarian war, I would have put more weight on how you dealt with Gerrel. For the Major Kyle incident, I would have it such that only the Shepard with the Torfan background would have the ability to talk him out of the fight... and that Shepard would have to work for that result over a much longer dialogue... involving Kyle's followers more in a concrete way to see that their leader got the heal he needed. There would also be none of this "I'm just sending a ship to pick you up (while I loot the place) and I'm going to trust you to turn yourself in" line at the end of it. Kyle would accompany Shepard then and there to Normandy and Shepard would have to actually deliver him to an Alliance facility. En route, they could talk about what really happened on Torfan.
Ah, but in order to ensure Tali is not exiled and still maintain loyalty, requires the use of the same magical persuade system that we've established is horrible. However you are more or less correct about it closely resembling the system you described, I simply believe that particular situation is beyond diplomacy, because frankly, there is NO REASON for Garrel to stop shooting from his PoV. They have the clear advantage, and only by Shepard "betraying" the Quarians and Tali will the Geth be able to defeat them. I cannot see a world where you can convince a General/Admiral to cease firing when victory is clearly in their grasp, aside from straight up telling him "if you don't stop, I'm gonna let the Geth kill your entire race" which...imo, is not gonna convince anyone. As for Major Kyle, I agree entirely. Only the Torfan Shepard should be able to talk him down, but it should be difficult, since Kyle sees you as the wicked "Butcher of Torfan". just like Akuze Shepard should be the only one who can talk down Toombs, because like Kyle only Akuze Shepard has even the faintest idea of what Toombs went through. The only real objection I would have in theory, is War Hero Shepard wouldn't have a unique "talk someone down" mission. Because the Pirate King who led the attack on Elysium is hell bent on killing you for making him look like a idiot. Aside from that I believe it's entirely possible to avoid this, and thus hardly inevitable. Much like Mass Effect itself proves that it's not inevitable, despite so many people on this forum insisting that ME proves it is. The Quarians ARE better than the Geth. Without Reaper intervention, the Geth lose, period. The Reapers themselves are a contradiction that is illogical, they are machines that butcher organics, so that organics don't get butchered by machines. Yet, they also provide aid to inferior machines (the Geth) when Organics prove they are capable of defeating them...they provide this aid so that the machines are able to defeat the organics...which is what the Reapers are apparently suppose to be trying to avoid. I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone whose played this franchise, think that makes sense. Not only make sense but be some ridiculous poetic statement. Even in the previous cycle, the Protheans were able to easily defeat the machine constructs of their cycle, until the Reapers showed up...and again boosted the machines to make it easier for them to defeat the organics..... I'm sorry, but if anything, ME has told me that AI is easily able to be held in check by organic beings, if not for the outside interference of other machines who insist their trying to protect organics by butchering them.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 7, 2020 19:44:47 GMT
The only real objection I would have in theory, is War Hero Shepard wouldn't have a unique "talk someone down" mission. Because the Pirate King who led the attack on Elysium is hell bent on killing you for making him look like a idiot. I think there a few options there. A different quest could be substituted, the quest could be re-written, or maybe compensate by giving War Hero Shepard a chance to enjoy their fame elsewhere. In terms of re-write, perhaps the personal enmity Haliat has for War Hero Shepard is so intense that he isn't content to merely trap Shepard in the mine; he needs to confront him and personally kill him. So War Hero fights him in the mine and never has to hike over a mountain to get the MAKO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 21:03:58 GMT
The geth/quarian war settlement came a lot closer to the deeper model I suggested than anything in ME1 because you had to do a lot more along the way to earn that option in the first place. For example, you had to save Tali from exile and keep her loyalty. You had to save General Koris (which is not a favor for the geth). You also had to have a loyal Legion present, which means you had to tolerate his BS in ME2. In short, you were earning respect from the two parties embroiled in the war so that, when push came to shove they might listen to your counsel. That's far more realistic than walking in on Major Kyle, possibly having never met him once, and just telling him he's being an idiot in a "charming" way.
For the Geth/Quarian war, I would have put more weight on how you dealt with Gerrel. For the Major Kyle incident, I would have it such that only the Shepard with the Torfan background would have the ability to talk him out of the fight... and that Shepard would have to work for that result over a much longer dialogue... involving Kyle's followers more in a concrete way to see that their leader got the heal he needed. There would also be none of this "I'm just sending a ship to pick you up (while I loot the place) and I'm going to trust you to turn yourself in" line at the end of it. Kyle would accompany Shepard then and there to Normandy and Shepard would have to actually deliver him to an Alliance facility. En route, they could talk about what really happened on Torfan.
Ah, but in order to ensure Tali is not exiled and still maintain loyalty, requires the use of the same magical persuade system that we've established is horrible. However you are more or less correct about it closely resembling the system you described, I simply believe that particular situation is beyond diplomacy, because frankly, there is NO REASON for Garrel to stop shooting from his PoV. They have the clear advantage, and only by Shepard "betraying" the Quarians and Tali will the Geth be able to defeat them. I cannot see a world where you can convince a General/Admiral to cease firing when victory is clearly in their grasp, aside from straight up telling him "if you don't stop, I'm gonna let the Geth kill your entire race" which...imo, is not gonna convince anyone. As for Major Kyle, I agree entirely. Only the Torfan Shepard should be able to talk him down, but it should be difficult, since Kyle sees you as the wicked "Butcher of Torfan". just like Akuze Shepard should be the only one who can talk down Toombs, because like Kyle only Akuze Shepard has even the faintest idea of what Toombs went through. The only real objection I would have in theory, is War Hero Shepard wouldn't have a unique "talk someone down" mission. Because the Pirate King who led the attack on Elysium is hell bent on killing you for making him look like a idiot. Aside from that I believe it's entirely possible to avoid this, and thus hardly inevitable. Much like Mass Effect itself proves that it's not inevitable, despite so many people on this forum insisting that ME proves it is. The Quarians ARE better than the Geth. Without Reaper intervention, the Geth lose, period. The Reapers themselves are a contradiction that is illogical, they are machines that butcher organics, so that organics don't get butchered by machines. Yet, they also provide aid to inferior machines (the Geth) when Organics prove they are capable of defeating them...they provide this aid so that the machines are able to defeat the organics...which is what the Reapers are apparently suppose to be trying to avoid. I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone whose played this franchise, think that makes sense. Not only make sense but be some ridiculous poetic statement. Even in the previous cycle, the Protheans were able to easily defeat the machine constructs of their cycle, until the Reapers showed up...and again boosted the machines to make it easier for them to defeat the organics..... I'm sorry, but if anything, ME has told me that AI is easily able to be held in check by organic beings, if not for the outside interference of other machines who insist their trying to protect organics by butchering them. For clarity - the quoted material below the phrase "Aside from that:" in the above was not written by me, so I'm not sure why you're addressing the response to it towards me.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 7, 2020 22:12:34 GMT
Ah, but in order to ensure Tali is not exiled and still maintain loyalty, requires the use of the same magical persuade system that we've established is horrible. However you are more or less correct about it closely resembling the system you described, I simply believe that particular situation is beyond diplomacy, because frankly, there is NO REASON for Garrel to stop shooting from his PoV. They have the clear advantage, and only by Shepard "betraying" the Quarians and Tali will the Geth be able to defeat them. I cannot see a world where you can convince a General/Admiral to cease firing when victory is clearly in their grasp, aside from straight up telling him "if you don't stop, I'm gonna let the Geth kill your entire race" which...imo, is not gonna convince anyone. As for Major Kyle, I agree entirely. Only the Torfan Shepard should be able to talk him down, but it should be difficult, since Kyle sees you as the wicked "Butcher of Torfan". just like Akuze Shepard should be the only one who can talk down Toombs, because like Kyle only Akuze Shepard has even the faintest idea of what Toombs went through. The only real objection I would have in theory, is War Hero Shepard wouldn't have a unique "talk someone down" mission. Because the Pirate King who led the attack on Elysium is hell bent on killing you for making him look like a idiot. Aside from that I believe it's entirely possible to avoid this, and thus hardly inevitable. Much like Mass Effect itself proves that it's not inevitable, despite so many people on this forum insisting that ME proves it is. The Quarians ARE better than the Geth. Without Reaper intervention, the Geth lose, period. The Reapers themselves are a contradiction that is illogical, they are machines that butcher organics, so that organics don't get butchered by machines. Yet, they also provide aid to inferior machines (the Geth) when Organics prove they are capable of defeating them...they provide this aid so that the machines are able to defeat the organics...which is what the Reapers are apparently suppose to be trying to avoid. I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone whose played this franchise, think that makes sense. Not only make sense but be some ridiculous poetic statement. Even in the previous cycle, the Protheans were able to easily defeat the machine constructs of their cycle, until the Reapers showed up...and again boosted the machines to make it easier for them to defeat the organics..... I'm sorry, but if anything, ME has told me that AI is easily able to be held in check by organic beings, if not for the outside interference of other machines who insist their trying to protect organics by butchering them. For clarity - the quoted material below the phrase "Aside from that:" in the above was not written by me, so I'm not sure why you're addressing the response to it towards me. I was aware, for some reason my brain told me it would be obnoxious to make 2 posts back to back to address that separately.
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