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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 19:56:17 GMT
Do the mods even care? They read this right? God knows they comb through each word I post. Wanna comment about whats been going on in this thread there mods? No? Just wanna go back to personal attacks and smearing people who dont agree with you as selfish assholes? You guys join hermancainaward yet? Celebrate when an unvax dies? What can we talk about and what is off limits? Everyone should start to question when people get banned for posting true statements. Im not talkin about this site. Facebook. Youtube. Twitter. Ive seen people banned for quoting the CDC. That should frighten anyone. But its their side of the political aisle doing it so they dont. Another mod post without getting answers to these questions. Looks like they are just ignoring us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 19:57:44 GMT
All I said was it wasnt the goal and you immediately go to conspiratorial, political and propaganda without even knowing what I know is the main goal. Fair enough. It sounded like a lot like the nutjob "social control" stuff I see all the time, and I jumped the gun. What do you think the final goal is? IDK if I can get into that publicly without being banned.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 4, 2021 20:00:50 GMT
Was it a British study I saw recently that showed that 1 in 3 people who'd contracted Covid suffered from one or more "long Covid" symptoms? Ongoing, seriously debilitating health effects? So while having been infected and recovered provides some immunity - like you say, not clear how much, but definitely less than the vaccines - it would appear to be a poor strategy for staying healthy. I would like to know if an annual booster shot is all that will be needed, though. Or if it might need to be more frequent. Plus, while the vaccine isn't a 100% perfect shield - and no one ever claimed it was - if you are fully vaccinated and still contract Covid, you're far, far less likely to develop serious symptoms or require hospitalisation (hence, leaving capacity free for people who get sick from something that can't be vaccinated against). ----- Yesterday we found out that the country is moving away from its 'elimination' strategy. "Zero" covid is no longer a thing that the government is aiming for, which is a bit like saying we're no longer aiming to reverse the orbit of the moon. It worked for us with the initial Covid, but Delta is just so much more transmissible. One case on a Tuesday afternoon in August has become more than 1200 just a few weeks later. As of tomorrow we'll be able to meet with one other family (no more than 10 people at a time) outdoors. Guess what the weather forecast is for the next week? Hint: there's not a lot of sun. I read about the shift in public policy. I get it. I hope it doesn't result in an explosive rise in serious illness. That is my very great fear. I've watched Victoria (which has a bit larger population than NZ) and NSW (which is larger again) in Australia and the results of their own attempts to ring-fence this thing. We have a 4 Level "Alert" system here, with 4 being the most stringent and 1 being, more or less, normal life (borders being restricted as the only notable exception). My city has been at Level 4 or 3 for 7 weeks. My business works in the events sector, so realistically, there is no work to be done until Level 1. And I can see that being a long, long way away if this easing has the effect of boosting us to numbers like what those two Australian states saw/have seen.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 4, 2021 20:02:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 20:11:39 GMT
Now how about personal attacks on people calling them dumbasses, selfish assholes?
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Post by Element Zero on Oct 4, 2021 20:15:51 GMT
At the very least, Iakus, @natinthehat and smilesja have turned a mirror on some of my posts. I feel very strongly that nearly everyone should be vaccinated; and I'm positive that I've allowed my experiences, concerns and frustrations to sour the tone of more than one of my posts. I don't feel any differently about the topic, but I do regret any needless negativity I've fed into the discussion. The negativity is coming from seeing too much death; wanting it to end ASAP; etc... It's not coming from a dislike of any individuals. I have generally liked talking other topics with those guys above, and most others on the BSN, and I have never felt like we needed to agree on everything. The stakes are undoubtedly higher and more real with this topic, but that doesn’t mean I should "sound" angry, rude or condescending. I'll make a legitimate effort to improve my tone.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 4, 2021 20:19:59 GMT
Now how about personal attacks on people calling them dumbasses, selfish assholes? If someone has personally attacked a user here - or any specifically named individual that isn't a public figure who holds themselves up for criticism, then report it. I'm not the only moderator of this forum. Generic comments about groups that aren't protected under Proboards Terms of Service - LGBT, for instance - are not personal attacks. And never have been. And this is the last post regarding moderation that will be allowed to stand in this thread. You have three options; report (either report function or PM another moderator), ignore or don't read the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 20:47:16 GMT
Now how about personal attacks on people calling them dumbasses, selfish assholes? If someone has personally attacked a user here - or any specifically named individual that isn't a public figure who holds themselves up for criticism, then report it. I'm not the only moderator of this forum. Generic comments about groups that aren't protected under Proboards Terms of Service - LGBT, for instance - are not personal attacks. And never have been. And this is the last post regarding moderation that will be allowed to stand in this thread. You have three options; report (either report function or PM another moderator), ignore or don't read the thread. See how easy that was, if you answered Iakus when he first brought up his point we wouldnt of had 3 pages of questions.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2021 21:20:33 GMT
At the very least, Iakus , @natinthehat and smilesja have turned a mirror on some of my posts. I feel very strongly that nearly everyone should be vaccinated; and I'm positive that I've allowed my experiences, concerns and frustrations to sour the tone of more than one of my posts. I don't feel any differently about the topic, but I do regret any needless negativity I've fed into the discussion. The negativity is coming from seeing too much death; wanting it to end ASAP; etc... It's not coming from a dislike of any individuals. I have generally liked talking other topics with those guys above, and most others on the BSN, and I have never felt like we needed to agree on everything. The stakes are undoubtedly higher and more real with this topic, but that doesn’t mean I should "sound" angry, rude or condescending. I'll make a legitimate effort to improve my tone. See, this is an attitude I can respect a lot more than "Stop talking or we'll silence you" I get that tempers can run high. Just gotta count to ten before hitting "Create Post" sometimes.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2021 21:31:38 GMT
Statistically, approximately 20% of the United States has had Covid at this point. Add in the, what 55% that have been vaccinated? We should be at around 75% at this point. A fair guess in terms of percentages, but "immunity" isn't that simple. For instance, data seem to indicate that being fully vaccinated grants at least 4 times the immunity as prior infection. And, of course, any form of immunity wanes with time. We are still learning about how the virus functions (let alone how it's evolving); the extent and duration of immunity; and all sorts of other important points. This is no doubt a big reason why people like Fauci are reticent to make any definitive statements. Our understanding is ever evolving. And if someone does make a confident statement or set a tentative timeline in the interest of public health (which is never as black-and-white as pure science), they're "a liar" when things don't happen exactly as they suggested. What I have read indicates the opposite, that natural immunity from prior infections grants longer lasting resistance towards Covid and at least some of the variants. Of course, the means to getting that resistance can kinda suck... And I suspect that the questions about how much protection and how long is part of the reason for the vaccine hesitancy? Even if the risk is small, why accept the risk of a bad reaction to the vaccine if you still have to get boosters every 4-6 months and still have to wear a mask everywhere? Where is the benefit? At any rate, it's hard to not be skeptical when they say "trust the science" when they're saying the exact opposite things six months to a year later and going "trust us this time" and then dealing with naysayers with excessive harshness. Seriously, science SHOULD be questioned. Good science stands up to scrutiny. I suspect history is not gonna look kindly on our leadership in the history books. Assuming they haven't all been burned by then...
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 4, 2021 22:34:27 GMT
Seriously, science SHOULD be questioned. Good science stands up to scrutiny. I agree with this, but I think that's part of the problem. As more was learned about covid and how it spreads, recommendations should (and did) change. Maybe the error (or one of many) early on was the amount of certainty some officials seemed to portray about both the importance and the futility of various safety measures. This should be used as an opportunity to educate people, however, not to silence them.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 5, 2021 0:05:16 GMT
I agree with this, but I think that's part of the problem. As more was learned about covid and how it spreads, recommendations should (and did) change. Maybe the error (or one of many) early on was the amount of certainty some officials seemed to portray about both the importance and the futility of various safety measures. This should be used as an opportunity to educate people, however, not to silence them. Other than the transmissibility via surfaces which seems to still be under debate and dependent on the type of surface, has the advice really changed that much from the early days? Physical distancing, wash your hands really well before and after being out, avoid crowded spaces and in areas of medium and higher transmission, wear a mask. All of those things, along with other restrictions/requirements which varied from country to country, were designed to do exactly one thing. Buy time for vaccines to be developed. Anyone who thought those measures would be enough in the long term were not paying attention.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 5, 2021 0:44:06 GMT
I agree with this, but I think that's part of the problem. As more was learned about covid and how it spreads, recommendations should (and did) change. Maybe the error (or one of many) early on was the amount of certainty some officials seemed to portray about both the importance and the futility of various safety measures. This should be used as an opportunity to educate people, however, not to silence them. Other than the transmissibility via surfaces which seems to still be under debate and dependent on the type of surface, has the advice really changed that much from the early days? Physical distancing, wash your hands really well before and after being out, avoid crowded spaces and in areas of medium and higher transmission, wear a mask. All of those things, along with other restrictions/requirements which varied from country to country, were designed to do exactly one thing. Buy time for vaccines to be developed. Anyone who thought those measures would be enough in the long term were not paying attention. The messaging was likely different in different parts of the world. Here, there was a time when they said people not in health care should not be wearing PPE. The reason for that was a PPE shortage, but it came across sometimes as, "If you aren't in health care, a mask won't help you." So then people started making cloth masks, and the data on those has been all over the place. And again, advice should change when new data comes in, but if someone is already mistrustful of authority, I can see how the changing recommendations without accompanying education on the issue would make people mistrust the recommendations even more. Then there were the promises that lockdowns would be "just two weeks," but the length of those lockdowns kept extending. Now, I know in some places your lockdowns were actual lockdowns, but here, "lockdown" in essence meant that restaurants, bars, schools, and entertainment venues were closed, but everything else was a free-for-all. When I did go out in order to drop off or pick things up at work, the streets were busier than ever. People went to the grocery store with the whole family just to have something to do. So then the "lockdowns" kept extending because covid kept spreading, because people weren't actually reducing their contact with others. Not to mention the absolute sham of contact-tracing conducted by both my employer and the state health department. Combating all this would have required an honest and united leadership, and we did not have that.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 5, 2021 0:49:24 GMT
The messaging was likely different in different parts of the world. Here, there was a time when they said people not in health care should not be wearing PPE. The reason for that was a PPE shortage, but it came across sometimes as, "If you aren't in health care, a mask won't help you." So then people started making cloth masks, and the data on those has been all over the place. And again, advice should change when new data comes in, but if someone is already mistrustful of authority, I can see how the changing recommendations without accompanying education on the issue would make people mistrust the recommendations even more. Ah - got you. We were initially told - re: masks - wear them if it makes you feel more comfortable/safer It wasn't until...mid March, I think...just before Lockdown 1 that it became clear we had ongoing and widespread community transmission that the wording changed from "wear if you feel better" to "wear unless you can't" (and not many would fall into that category). Then it finally rested where it is now - "wear a fucking mask". Everything else regarding public health messaging has been pretty consistent here. I know in some places your lockdowns were actual lockdowns Don't remind me. This is the longest one yet, and I think we're likely to have at least another two weeks. If we're lucky.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 5, 2021 16:32:16 GMT
A fair guess in terms of percentages, but "immunity" isn't that simple. For instance, data seem to indicate that being fully vaccinated grants at least 4 times the immunity as prior infection. And, of course, any form of immunity wanes with time. We are still learning about how the virus functions (let alone how it's evolving); the extent and duration of immunity; and all sorts of other important points. This is no doubt a big reason why people like Fauci are reticent to make any definitive statements. Our understanding is ever evolving. And if someone does make a confident statement or set a tentative timeline in the interest of public health (which is never as black-and-white as pure science), they're "a liar" when things don't happen exactly as they suggested. Plus, while the vaccine isn't a 100% perfect shield - and no one ever claimed it was - if you are fully vaccinated and still contract Covid, you're far, far less likely to develop serious symptoms or require hospitalisation (hence, leaving capacity free for people who get sick from something that can't be vaccinated against). Not entirely true. Health officials have adjusted their messaging after the vaccines weren't as effective as hoped. Their strategy appears to be a Covid zero policy, which is impossible. They've said ad nauseum that once we get enough people vaccinated, we can return to 'normal'. And many have been treating the vaccine like a miracle cure. Every egg we have is put in that basket and very little messaging has been about prevention or early treatment. It's been all about the vaccine and now they're back tracking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 18:04:02 GMT
I agree with this, but I think that's part of the problem. As more was learned about covid and how it spreads, recommendations should (and did) change. Maybe the error (or one of many) early on was the amount of certainty some officials seemed to portray about both the importance and the futility of various safety measures. This should be used as an opportunity to educate people, however, not to silence them. Other than the transmissibility via surfaces which seems to still be under debate and dependent on the type of surface, has the advice really changed that much from the early days? Physical distancing, wash your hands really well before and after being out, avoid crowded spaces and in areas of medium and higher transmission, wear a mask. All of those things, along with other restrictions/requirements which varied from country to country, were designed to do exactly one thing. Buy time for vaccines to be developed. Anyone who thought those measures would be enough in the long term were not paying attention. Im your huckleberry
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 5, 2021 19:41:59 GMT
Plus, while the vaccine isn't a 100% perfect shield - and no one ever claimed it was - if you are fully vaccinated and still contract Covid, you're far, far less likely to develop serious symptoms or require hospitalisation (hence, leaving capacity free for people who get sick from something that can't be vaccinated against). Not entirely true. Health officials have adjusted their messaging after the vaccines weren't as effective as hoped. Their strategy appears to be a Covid zero policy, which is impossible. They've said ad nauseum that once we get enough people vaccinated, we can return to 'normal'. And many have been treating the vaccine like a miracle cure. Every egg we have is put in that basket and very little messaging has been about prevention or early treatment. It's been all about the vaccine and now they're back tracking. Maybe where you are. For us, we're still being told the vaccine is the ticket to normal. And evidence thus far bears that out. The number of people in our current outbreak that are fully vaccinated represent the definition of a statistical anomaly. And single dose cases are either a low double digit or high single percentage. But because of how much we've slowed since hitting 80% of first doses, that ticket is just on a very slow train.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 5, 2021 19:44:03 GMT
Other than the transmissibility via surfaces which seems to still be under debate and dependent on the type of surface, has the advice really changed that much from the early days? Physical distancing, wash your hands really well before and after being out, avoid crowded spaces and in areas of medium and higher transmission, wear a mask. All of those things, along with other restrictions/requirements which varied from country to country, were designed to do exactly one thing. Buy time for vaccines to be developed. Anyone who thought those measures would be enough in the long term were not paying attention. Im your huckleberry Public Health advice. I'm not going to read through all of that, but most of them appear to be media outlets. Official advice from government is what I was referring to. And there is a difference. And as for the WHO, well - not commenting on that.
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Post by nopersdeviv on Oct 5, 2021 20:08:56 GMT
Plus, while the vaccine isn't a 100% perfect shield - and no one ever claimed it was - if you are fully vaccinated and still contract Covid, you're far, far less likely to develop serious symptoms or require hospitalisation (hence, leaving capacity free for people who get sick from something that can't be vaccinated against). Not entirely true. Health officials have adjusted their messaging after the vaccines weren't as effective as hoped. Their strategy appears to be a Covid zero policy, which is impossible. They've said ad nauseum that once we get enough people vaccinated, we can return to 'normal'. And many have been treating the vaccine like a miracle cure. Every egg we have is put in that basket and very little messaging has been about prevention or early treatment. It's been all about the vaccine and now they're back tracking. They haven't been backtracking, their message has always been the same. It's how it's been reported that has created much of this confusion. From the onset, it was known that the virus spreading would result in an overflow of patients in the hospital, causing over crowding and creating an overworked healthcare system, with the hospital workers becoming burnt out. To prevent this from happening, the recommendation was to wash your hands, wear a mask in public places and social distance whenever possible. It was simple. But no, some media reports turned it into a big mess by pumping out misinformation, inferring a multitude of conspiracy theories and acting like a simple request was an attack on human rights. Frontline workers have been attacked, threatened and maligned. Experts have been misquoted or ignored by media groups wanting to create a dilemma and acting like this is a competition for attention, not an actual crisis that involves real people, affecting their actual lives. The experts were always saying for life to get back to normal, we need to curtail the virus from spreading, take precautions and get vaccinated because the longer the virus is around, the more likely it is that it will mutate and create more deadly variations that we will possibly not have a chance to control. That was back with the original strain of the virus, but too many people were stomping around, refusing to wear masks, gathering in large numbers and basically doing everything the opposite of what was recommended. So the virus spread and mutated..JUST LIKE THE EXPERTS SAID IT WOULD. Now the new variants are becoming more difficult to contain and treat, JUST LIKE THE EXPERTS SAID THEY WOULD, and that is why the vaccines are losing their effectiveness. If you're finding "very little" information on prevention and treatment, then maybe you're looking at the wrong sources. Because the ones who are back tracking now, are the ones who have been throwing shade on the experts since the beginning of this mess.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 5, 2021 20:35:17 GMT
Well whether the experts were misquoted or not (I personally feel that they've been flip flopping on masks and flattening the curve) the massive amount of censorship by social media has not helped matters and just make people suspicious of authority.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 5, 2021 20:42:11 GMT
Well whether the experts were misquoted or not (I personally feel that they've been flip flopping on masks and flattening the curve) the massive amount of censorship by social media has not helped matters and just make people suspicious of authority. I've commented on how I feel that social media censorship isn't the way to combat misinformation, so we agree there. That said, you understand that YouTube or Twitter banning something is not the same as the government banning things, right? I'd be genuinely interested if you have an example of health officials actually flip-flopping on recommendations, versus changing recommendations based on new data.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 20:46:32 GMT
Well whether the experts were misquoted or not (I personally feel that they've been flip flopping on masks and flattening the curve) the massive amount of censorship by social media has not helped matters and just make people suspicious of authority. I've commented on how I feel that social media censorship isn't the way to combat misinformation, so we agree there. That said, you understand that YouTube or Twitter banning something is not the same as the government banning things, right? I'd be genuinely interested if you have an example of health officials actually flip-flopping on recommendations, versus changing recommendations based on new data. I have a treasure trove of stuff I could post, I guess the question is how can we determine if they changed based on new data or not? And twitter and google get government money, platform politicians and work with the government hand in hand, you dont think the government is telling these companies what is and isnt allowed?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2021 20:53:32 GMT
Well whether the experts were misquoted or not (I personally feel that they've been flip flopping on masks and flattening the curve) the massive amount of censorship by social media has not helped matters and just make people suspicious of authority. They have been: And there's also been a lot of misinformation about Covid treatments not approved by "the experts" ie "horse de-wormer" and "bleach", among others Note I'm not saying those ARE effective treatments. just that they have been the subject of rather extreme misrepresentation by the media, both social and mainstream. So no true conversation can be had about them,
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Oct 5, 2021 22:21:08 GMT
Get all your Covid info from hereYou can check the sources that they use at the bottom, and the data is neatly exposed for easy understanding. As for the the hot topic at the moment, flu mandates changed/changes by the how the economy is faring, who is wearing the big pants, what is the priority of said person, how is the culture of the local population (The US seems to held individualism in high regard, enough to triump it over a health crisis, or anything else really), the current data aviable from the virus (after all, it's quite new, some viruses took decades to understood), etc etc Ergo, changes are expected to happend, they always do. And please, believe or not in the vax, protect yourself, and in doing so, is an act of solidarity with whom you have at your side. I doubt anyone here want to start seeing collapsed hospitals, and short time after, morgues. It happened in less prepared countries, they saw what is to have dead bodies in homes, even streets, that should never happend, anywhere to anyone. so, again, take care of your asses.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 5, 2021 22:23:10 GMT
I've commented on how I feel that social media censorship isn't the way to combat misinformation, so we agree there. That said, you understand that YouTube or Twitter banning something is not the same as the government banning things, right? I'd be genuinely interested if you have an example of health officials actually flip-flopping on recommendations, versus changing recommendations based on new data. I have a treasure trove of stuff I could post, I guess the question is how can we determine if they changed based on new data or not? And twitter and google get government money, platform politicians and work with the government hand in hand, you dont think the government is telling these companies what is and isnt allowed? As an example, here is an article discussing the changing guidelines regarding whether covid can spread via contaminated surfaces or not: www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4. It's an interesting article, and the studies are linked as well.
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