xrayspex73
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by xrayspex73 on Sept 10, 2020 7:39:07 GMT
Needing to be online in order to play single player is an automatic deal breaker for me. They could do what Hitman and MGS5 did and have extra unlockables like weapons and gadgets hidden behind online access. After completing challenges or grinding for them; they stay in your possession even in offline mode. It gave you a reason to be online but didn’t lock you out of the core experience. I wouldn't say deal breaker just hiiighhhhly annoying. Nope. It is a complete deal breaker for me. If they want an online only game with microtransactions, that game better be free.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by xrayspex73 on Sept 10, 2020 7:42:14 GMT
We also have to remember how, 18 months after the release of Anthem, we only got a rushed Cataclysm out the door and nothing but seasonal events since. So we should also be prepared for a long content drought.
I'm less concerned about how fast the content comes, and more about the quality of said content. If live service ends up bringing pointless fetch quests, then I'm not gonna be interested in it no matter how fast they pumped that content out. Well considering that Bioware essentially abandoned Anthem after less than 1 year of lackluster support, I don't have any faith that they would deliver any "quality" post-launch content.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 10, 2020 9:11:01 GMT
I wasn't quite sure of where to stick these thoughts that I have been musing, but it might be the most telling to put them here. Now a lot of this is obvious supposition but it is still worth pointing out. Playing Ghost Recon Breakpoint has been a bit of a fascinating experience when it has come to live service for two big reasons. A. Its the first Live Service game I have played with major issues at launch which made it panned in some circles and B. For whatever specific reason Ubisfot seems to have a lot more resources to throw at fixing Breakpoint whereas the game has seen signifcant QoL improvements while both Anthem and FO 76, for instance, are still wallowing and waiting for theirs (I mean I know Wastelanders has just released for the ladder). But the point is this provides us an in world spead up view of what DA 4 might be and how it might relate to Live Service. In the end of the day I think the biggest benefit for Live Service is that games have beome investments, not just launch them out the door and pretty much wash your hands of them if they do bad. Game companies are more willing to stick with these games long term, make major community requested changes to fix them. -Breakpoint had a bad idea for core gameplay...which has since been patched out. -Community and user feedback has led to numerous new GP being introduced. -New expansions are still being planned and have been released post launch despite the game's initial struggles. -And some of this new expansions have been reworked...again based on user feedback and new ideas for story. I just can't imagine EA doing this in a pre live service model. In fact we know they didn't given they both basically stopped working on DA 2 and Andromeda. However now, even with a game with a troubled launch and bad critical reception...they are still working on it, in Anthem. How this pans out we have yet to see, however this is...telling. Heh, it’s telling alright. It tells me that this industry is kind of a sham. The real benefit of a live service model is simply the recurring revenue system, of course this isn’t a benefit that translates down to the players themselves, because they paid an entry fee for mediocrity, like Anthem or Breakpoint, and their greatest hope for any improvements later might hinge solely on the idea that the game is designed to keep asking them for money throughout its service life. As one of the suckers who fell for Anthem’s pre-release hype and ultimately paid for a game with even less at its core than base Destiny, which is incredible, I don’t benefit at all from the prospects of whatever Anthem 2.0 brings. If it turns out to be a major improvement, great for them, but the only money they will ever get from me for this title was paid way back in January 2019. If a company decides to keep investing in a product to improvement, that’s fine. If a company’s only true incentive is to do it is when that product is designed specifically to keep making money on an individual user basis, perhaps that’s not so fine. I guess the expectation of getting a better product right at release is becoming increasingly unreasonable this day and age. I can’t imagine EA really going out of their way to do this either, but that’s because they’re greedy fucks, much like Ubisoft are, because in the end, we’re all suckers that eat this shit up, and congratulate them when they get around to finally providing what we paid for. As for DA2, it at least got 2 major expansions. Whatever problems that game might’ve had, it was given far better treatment than Andromeda.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 10:28:24 GMT
I wasn't quite sure of where to stick these thoughts that I have been musing, but it might be the most telling to put them here. Now a lot of this is obvious supposition but it is still worth pointing out. Playing Ghost Recon Breakpoint has been a bit of a fascinating experience when it has come to live service for two big reasons. A. Its the first Live Service game I have played with major issues at launch which made it panned in some circles and B. For whatever specific reason Ubisfot seems to have a lot more resources to throw at fixing Breakpoint whereas the game has seen signifcant QoL improvements while both Anthem and FO 76, for instance, are still wallowing and waiting for theirs (I mean I know Wastelanders has just released for the ladder). But the point is this provides us an in world spead up view of what DA 4 might be and how it might relate to Live Service. In the end of the day I think the biggest benefit for Live Service is that games have beome investments, not just launch them out the door and pretty much wash your hands of them if they do bad. Game companies are more willing to stick with these games long term, make major community requested changes to fix them. -Breakpoint had a bad idea for core gameplay...which has since been patched out. -Community and user feedback has led to numerous new GP being introduced. -New expansions are still being planned and have been released post launch despite the game's initial struggles. -And some of this new expansions have been reworked...again based on user feedback and new ideas for story. I just can't imagine EA doing this in a pre live service model. In fact we know they didn't given they both basically stopped working on DA 2 and Andromeda. However now, even with a game with a troubled launch and bad critical reception...they are still working on it, in Anthem. How this pans out we have yet to see, however this is...telling. Heh, it’s telling alright. It tells me that this industry is kind of a sham. The real benefit of a live service model is simply the recurring revenue system, of course this isn’t a benefit that translates down to the players themselves, because they paid an entry fee for mediocrity, like Anthem or Breakpoint, and their greatest hope for any improvements later might hinge solely on the idea that the game is designed to keep asking them for money throughout its service life. As one of the suckers who fell for Anthem’s pre-release hype and ultimately paid for a game with even less at its core than base Destiny, which is incredible, I don’t benefit at all from the prospects of whatever Anthem 2.0 brings. If it turns out to be a major improvement, great for them, but the only money they will ever get from me for this title was paid way back in January 2019. If a company decides to keep investing in a product to improvement, that’s fine. If a company’s only true incentive is to do it is when that product is designed specifically to keep making money on an individual user basis, perhaps that’s not so fine. I guess the expectation of getting a better product right at release is becoming increasingly unreasonable this day and age. I can’t imagine EA really going out of their way to do this either, but that’s because they’re greedy fucks, much like Ubisoft are, because in the end, we’re all suckers that eat this shit up, and congratulate them when they get around to finally providing what we paid for. As for DA2, it at least got 2 major expansions. Whatever problems that game might’ve had, it was given far better treatment than Andromeda. isn't this logic backwards? If you only pay an entry fee for mediocrity...as you put it...but then the game keeps on improving whether or not you decide to put more money into it...well that sounds like a big win for the player over the company. We get a great game eventually, the companies use up how much ever time and money trying to improve said game. Which you are...actually very correct and I never actually considered how pro gamer LS was.  its certainly opened my eyes. As far as the 'incomplete game' argument is concerned...does that even work. Should all TV shows stop after one season and not make improvements? Should no movies get sequels? Should no company listen to community feedback? Should DAI not have gotten DLC or Andromeda patched? Fine, maybe games like Andromeda or the Avengers or Anthem or Breakpoint had issues on launch. Fine they should mitigate those issues going forward. But I would rather these companies make changes and patch things to improve their games. I don't care that they were broken on launch, I care what they have become or what they could become in the future. Because yes people make mistakes but in the modern era they are afforded the opprotunity to fix their mistakes. |
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 10, 2020 11:44:12 GMT
Content droughts only really matter for the multiplayer end, so that’s fine. So I guess it's OK that Andromeda never got any DLC. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 10, 2020 12:18:26 GMT
Content droughts only really matter for the multiplayer end, so that’s fine. So I guess it's OK that Andromeda never got any DLC. No, but that’s not really the same thing. Even if Andromeda got DLC, it’s still a one-and-done deal. Most players don’t have tons of replays of singleplayer games (assuming they even complete them), so even the ones that get DLC probably might just get one or possibly 2 before the dev moves on to something else. “Droughts” are more impactful for multiplayer, where the developer has to keep drip-feeding content to keep people on that treadmill.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 12:23:37 GMT
What's actually wrong with a game not getting DLC?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 10, 2020 12:51:38 GMT
No, but that’s not really the same thing. Even if Andromeda got DLC, it’s still a one-and-done deal. Most players don’t have tons of replays of singleplayer games (assuming they even complete them), so even the ones that get DLC probably might just get one or possibly 2 before the dev moves on to something else That wasn't the case with ME2 or ME3. Just DA2, ME:A and DA:I. So far. “Droughts” are more impactful for multiplayer, where the developer has to keep drip-feeding content to keep people on that treadmill. So there should be even more active development there, but isn't. And this should inspire confidence? What's actually wrong with a game not getting DLC? I don't know. Depends. If the game brings up certain plot points and doesn't follow them up, I might be a little disappointed. Especially if it seems these plot points were intentionally not resolved in the base game and left for post launch DLC. And even more if the next game doesn't address them, or is too far off to actually care by then, so there goes my investment in the franchise. While not wrong, it can be bad, I guess. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 10, 2020 13:23:33 GMT
What's actually wrong with a game not getting DLC? In the case of Andromeda specifically, the problem comes about when an in-game story hook gets relegated to a book, or simply not at all. Imagine if Shepard told the Council that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers, and we find out.....in a novel.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 13:40:40 GMT
What's actually wrong with a game not getting DLC? In the case of Andromeda specifically, the problem comes about when an in-game story hook gets relegated to a book, or simply not at all. Imagine if Shepard told the Council that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers, and we find out.....in a novel. So it's "bad" in the same sense that the cancellation of Firefly is "bad", or GRR Martin dying before he finishes GoT would be "bad". Okay. Seems like that happens a lot, though, and to a lot of things. |
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 19:26:25 GMT
Yeah Andromeda didn't need DLC...I mean it's isn't a live service game why would it? I mean typically bioware does DLC to explore random side things or to bridge the gap to the next game. If we get another game set in Andromeda that would be that... But Andromedas plot was wrapped up in a bow and didn't need expansion. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 22:00:55 GMT
Yeah Andromeda didn't need DLC...I mean it's isn't a live service game why would it? I mean typically bioware does DLC to explore random side things or to bridge the gap to the next game. If we get another game set in Andromeda that would be that... But Andromedas plot was wrapped up in a bow and didn't need expansion. I'm pretty sure BioWare has stated in the past, though, that they consider ALL the DA and ME games to have been some form of 'live service'. And Andromeda did get a few multiplayer updates early on. |
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 23:04:30 GMT
Yeah Andromeda didn't need DLC...I mean it's isn't a live service game why would it? I mean typically bioware does DLC to explore random side things or to bridge the gap to the next game. If we get another game set in Andromeda that would be that... But Andromedas plot was wrapped up in a bow and didn't need expansion. I'm pretty sure BioWare has stated in the past, though, that they consider ALL the DA and ME games to have been some form of 'live service'. And Andromeda did get a few multiplayer updates early on. Exactly. Good point its not something I had forgotten when it comes to this. I don't know if it was you or someone else...or even this thread...but I have thought before that its within the realm of possibility for DA 4 to have no single player DLC at all...but just releasing expansions and new stuff for the multiplayer mode. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 23:12:25 GMT
I'm pretty sure BioWare has stated in the past, though, that they consider ALL the DA and ME games to have been some form of 'live service'. And Andromeda did get a few multiplayer updates early on. Exactly. Good point its not something I had forgotten when it comes to this. I don't know if it was you or someone else...or even this thread...but I have thought before that its within the realm of possibility for DA 4 to have no single player DLC at all...but just releasing expansions and new stuff for the multiplayer mode. They could, yes, but as someone who has only ever played multiplayer anything so far in Crash Team Racing (because that was the quickest way to earn coins for the store and points for events), I'd be disappointed personally. I am interested to see how Marvel's Avengers works out long-term. So far it has not required me to play multiplayer for ANYTHING, and they've promised regular content updates in the form of new playable characters, each coming with their own short story campaign. BioWare could do something like that, potentially. |
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 23:15:27 GMT
Exactly. Good point its not something I had forgotten when it comes to this. I don't know if it was you or someone else...or even this thread...but I have thought before that its within the realm of possibility for DA 4 to have no single player DLC at all...but just releasing expansions and new stuff for the multiplayer mode. They could, yes, but as someone who has only ever played multiplayer anything so far in Crash Team Racing (because that was the quickest way to earn coins for the store and points for events), I'd be disappointed personally. I am interested to see how Marvel's Avengers works out long-term. So far it has not required me to play multiplayer for ANYTHING, and they've promised regular content updates in the form of new playable characters, each coming with their own short story campaign. BioWare could do something like that, potentially. Yeah Avengers is the next real case study for this sort of thing...especially since, according to the devs, its *not* a live service game...oh no It just walks like a duck and talks like a duck... |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 11, 2020 1:12:44 GMT
They could, yes, but as someone who has only ever played multiplayer anything so far in Crash Team Racing (because that was the quickest way to earn coins for the store and points for events), I'd be disappointed personally. I am interested to see how Marvel's Avengers works out long-term. So far it has not required me to play multiplayer for ANYTHING, and they've promised regular content updates in the form of new playable characters, each coming with their own short story campaign. BioWare could do something like that, potentially. Yeah Avengers is the next real case study for this sort of thing...especially since, according to the devs, its *not* a live service game...oh no It just walks like a duck and talks like a duck... I mean, it was pretty clear from the start that the definition of "live service" changes depending on who's saying it. In a world where almost EVERY game gets at least a few patches or updates and is never complete out of the box, I don't think 'is it a live service game?' is even a meaningful or useful question anymore. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 13, 2020 13:31:14 GMT
Yeah Andromeda didn't need DLC...I mean it's isn't a live service game why would it? I mean typically bioware does DLC to explore random side things or to bridge the gap to the next game. If we get another game set in Andromeda that would be that... But Andromedas plot was wrapped up in a bow and didn't need expansion. I'm pretty sure BioWare has stated in the past, though, that they consider ALL the DA and ME games to have been some form of 'live service'. And Andromeda did get a few multiplayer updates early on. I already expect just about any new BioWare game to have some sort of multiplayer component, just as a tacked-on side activity that doesn’t interfere with the base game. When the phrase “live service” starts becoming part of the conversation, it doesn’t really imply the same thing, regardless of whatever assurances BioWare wants to convey. After all, what’s the point if it just means the same old shit we’ve gotten for years? By and large, “live service” doesn’t just imply that tacked-on mode BioWare’s normally delivered, which is why I’m always wary when it’s suggested that this game or that is going to be one. Only thing that will quell my concern is when it’s confirmed that, yet again, the multiplayer component will not interfere with the base game in any way, and it’s just business as usual.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 13, 2020 13:42:46 GMT
What's actually wrong with a game not getting DLC? In the case of Andromeda specifically, the problem comes about when an in-game story hook gets relegated to a book, or simply not at all. Imagine if Shepard told the Council that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers, and we find out.....in a novel. I really don't understand this argument. There has been other BioWare games that don't have a full blown conclusion to things they have mentioned and I don't remember people crying out for DLC. Such as the Reapers in Mass Effect 1, we didn't stop the invasion in fact we did nothing towards them and the franchise could have just as easily died right there after that one game with no conclusion knowing the Reapers were still on their way. We don't know what the future holds or what they are going to be doing in the future games and BioWare themselves said they were writing Andromeda to be standalone, but will have threads that could continue going forward even if not a direct sequel.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 13, 2020 14:17:05 GMT
In the case of Andromeda specifically, the problem comes about when an in-game story hook gets relegated to a book, or simply not at all. Imagine if Shepard told the Council that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers, and we find out.....in a novel. I really don't understand this argument. There has been other BioWare games that don't have a full blown conclusion to things they have mentioned and I don't remember people crying out for DLC. Such as the Reapers in Mass Effect 1, we didn't stop the invasion in fact we did nothing towards them and the franchise could have just as easily died right there after that one game with no conclusion knowing the Reapers were still on their way. We don't know what the future holds or what they are going to be doing in the future games and BioWare themselves said they were writing Andromeda to be standalone, but will have threads that could continue going forward even if not a direct sequel. Not sure what there is to misunderstand. In Andromeda, we get this tease about the Quarian ark, and of course there’s no game content to follow-up this tease. Whether or not it gets fully resolved in a book is neither here or there for me, since I consider books an invalid substitute for actual game content. I’m not sure why they bothered adding this line in the first place, creating this little tidbit of intrigue for a character that’s never going to see these events play out. Similarly, if ME1 just ended and there was no trilogy, that throwaway line, which is clearly sequel bait, would be just as bothersome. Sure, we don’t know what the future holds, but then I was never one to be particularly optimistic about what that future will actually bring. Right now, I expect the bare minimum something to the effect of yet another soft reboot. Maybe I’m wrong and they actually do a proper follow-up, and I’d like to be wrong, but I have no reason to expect it.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 13, 2020 15:53:14 GMT
In the case of Andromeda specifically, the problem comes about when an in-game story hook gets relegated to a book, or simply not at all. Imagine if Shepard told the Council that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers, and we find out.....in a novel. I really don't understand this argument. There has been other BioWare games that don't have a full blown conclusion to things they have mentioned and I don't remember people crying out for DLC. Such as the Reapers in Mass Effect 1, we didn't stop the invasion in fact we did nothing towards them and the franchise could have just as easily died right there after that one game with no conclusion knowing the Reapers were still on their way. We don't know what the future holds or what they are going to be doing in the future games and BioWare themselves said they were writing Andromeda to be standalone, but will have threads that could continue going forward even if not a direct sequel. Most works of fiction have embedded threads that could later be developed as desired. Finding a cure for Mom Ryder's illness is one example, what Reyes is really up to is another, what the kett will do next (retreat? rebuild? replace?) with the Archon defeated yet another, the mysteries of the scourge and the Jardaan are still out there. ME1 was a complete story because Shepard completed the mission to find out what Saren was up to and defeat him. ME2 was a complete story because Shepard defeated the collectors. DAO was a complete story because the archdemon was slain, the blight ended. DA2 just sort of ended having accomplished its purpose of causing the circles to fall and Corypooderpie cut loose. The goal of MEA was to settle the Heleus cluster, and that remains unfinished. Ryder found all of the other missing Arks except the Keelah Si'yah - and the game ended upon receiving its distress call. Andromeda is thus missing ~ half a dozen other Milky Way species that were supposed to have arrived. That is a clear call for a follow-up of some kind, presumably a DLC. MEA does not feel complete with that Ark still out there.
And... I just realized we're discussing ME's future in the DA forum - heh.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 13, 2020 16:15:41 GMT
I'm glad MEA didn't get any DLC. It would have just taken a good story and character, ripped them apart to tease something, and then throw them away like trash. Just like Trespasser.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 13, 2020 16:18:36 GMT
^What is it you're so angry about?
Wanting other people to not get content they'd like doesn't sound like you.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 13, 2020 16:20:04 GMT
^What is it you're so angry about? Wanting other people to not get content they'd like doesn't sound like you. I'm angry about companies ruining games and stories just to make an extra buck. Also I want a MEA2 with Ryder so it's not like I'm against more content for that character or story.
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Polka Dot
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Polka Dot
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 13, 2020 16:22:10 GMT
^Sorry - too vague to be at all helpful.
Apparently, you've learned something that dashes your desires/expectations in some way.
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Onecrazymonkey1
"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 13, 2020 16:24:21 GMT
^What is it you're so angry about? Wanting other people to not get content they'd like doesn't sound like you. I'm angry about companies ruining games and stories just to make an extra buck. Also I want a MEA2 with Ryder so it's not like I'm against more content for that character or story. Is this to do with that rumor that Andromeda 2 won't be with Ryder? I wouldn't put much stock in that yet.
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its certainly opened my eyes. 
