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Post by cloud9 on Aug 29, 2020 6:51:31 GMT
And that is why TLOU franchise is suffering, because of Druckmann's poor narrative decisions. But the one thing I don't understand is why does he wanted people to hate the game, by killing off Joel in the most despicable way, and not allowing gamers to kill the antagonist for killing a beloved character. On top of that, he got upset at gamers for hating the sequel for that very reason, and decides to label them as "haters" for not seeing his "artistic vision" of the game. Obviously, this guy has a huge ego problem and he's very sensitive to criticism. If he can't listen to criticism or don't learn from his mistakes, then he should never been a writer/creative director of ND in the first place. Let alone being a vice president of the company. I never understood the mentality that Neil Druckmann had with The Last of Us Part 2. He talked constantly about how he was expecting people to hate the game, but when people did hate it he took it personally and seemed to be confused to why people hated his masterpiece. He didn't do the game any favors with how he acted if anything it made the problems of the game worse. From the massive DMCA takedown rampage which caused people to boycott talking about the game, then questioning reviewers to why they were negative about the game, and then followed by what seems to be grouping everyone who disliked the game into some kind of bigot category. The one thing I will remember from all of the issues around The Last of Us Part 2 is how inconsistent coverage of games and their issues are. My thoughts exactly. Personally, I think he just want to give a middle finger to the fans who loved the first game, and he wants his revenge story in the first game but Bruce Straley stopped him from doing it. And as soon as Bruce resigns from ND, that's when things are going downhill when Druckmann takes full control.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 31, 2020 9:10:23 GMT
It may be some time before I can come to a balanced view of TLOUII. I really enjoyed the game (completed twice and platinumed). But it would be fair to say that some game choices were there to challenge or even provoke the player. I was satisfied with the challenges, but I can understand that some may not have been (justifiably or not).
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 31, 2020 11:56:04 GMT
It is going to hurt the franchise on the long run.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Aug 31, 2020 12:01:37 GMT
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Post by flyingovertrout on Aug 31, 2020 12:04:05 GMT
It is going to hurt the franchise in the long run.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 31, 2020 13:03:22 GMT
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 5, 2020 12:23:16 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 20, 2020 15:17:50 GMT
The Last of Us Part II is a damn good game. It has the balls to kill the "hero" of the previous one in a brutal way and shows Ellie doing a lot of the same things that Joel did in the first one. I think Abby's story is actually slightly better but doesn't make her a hero either. This is a game that challenges players to actually THINK about the story and the character's actions and the fact that we don't have any choice in the matter.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 16:37:43 GMT
The Last of Us Part II is a damn good game. It has the balls to kill the "hero" of the previous one in a brutal way and shows Ellie doing a lot of the same things that Joel did in the first one. I think Abby's story is actually slightly better but doesn't make her a hero either. This is a game that challenges players to actually THINK about the story and the character's actions and the fact that we don't have any choice in the matter. They absolutely had choices in the matter.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 17:48:22 GMT
Okay, having now played the game I feel like I can see what the story tried to do, and say with certainty that it failed. The character motivations are very hurriedly, loosely and in many cases cheaply set up, and the characters don't even act consistently according to them.
Everybody makes weird and suicidally (and infanticidally) stupid decisions again and again, and nobody makes it clear enough why exactly they're doing any given thing for their arcs to be meaningful or even comprehensible. And the clear message of the ending isn't even causally backed up by the events of the game.
To whit, if a moral had to be extracted from the story itself it wouldn't be 'an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind', but rather 'don't leave witnesses'. Seriously. Hundreds of people could have lived if either Joel or Addy had chosen to finish the job instead of leaving enemies at their backs. Which I would wager isn't what was on Neil Druckmann's mind when he conceived of the plot.
They could have put the time and effort into the writing to make a really cool and interesting piece of storycraft here, instead of taking obvious shortcuts and cheaping out on the substance just hoping that the players would project the narrative they want unto events, essentially just giving the writers credit for trying.
Which a lot of people are obviously willing to do, and a lot of others aren't. I'm personally not.
But that's just the story. The mechanics are pretty cool, and very close to being great, at least on Grounded difficulty. The aiming stability, or lack of it, is ridiculous, but otherwise I was impressed and had a good deal of fun.
Could have done with less time spent staring at post-apocalyptic asses in skinny-jeans though. I've just about had it with games, movies and series full of roving angry people whose primary weapons are teeth and nails where the survivors don't think about protective clothing. Tough cargo pants and leather jackets aren't just for show, people.
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 21, 2020 22:27:19 GMT
The Last of Us Part II is a damn good game. It has the balls to kill the "hero" of the previous one in a brutal way and shows Ellie doing a lot of the same things that Joel did in the first one. I think Abby's story is actually slightly better but doesn't make her a hero either. This is a game that challenges players to actually THINK about the story and the character's actions and the fact that we don't have any choice in the matter. But the way how the story was executed is terrible. Because she came out to f nowhere murdering Joel, without bringing up why she wanted to hunt him down, and kill him from the beginning of the game. But all in all, I think Druckmann just want to tell his story so bad on the first game, and want to piss off fans who loved the first game. And on top of that, he sees gamers and critics who don't like the game as "less important".
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 21, 2020 22:30:38 GMT
Okay, having now played the game I feel like I can see what the story tries to do, and say with certainty that it failed. The character motivations are very hurriedly, loosely and in many cases cheaply set up, and the characters don't even act consistently according to them. Everybody makes inexplicably weird and suicidally (and infanticidally) stupid decisions again and again, and nobody makes it clear enough why exactly they're doing any given thing for their arcs to be meaningful or even comprehensible. And the clear message of the ending isn't even causally backed up by the events of the game. To whit, if a moral had to be extracted from the story itself it wouldn't be 'an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind', but rather 'don't leave survivors'. Which I would wager isn't what was on Neil Druckmann's mind when he conceived of it. They could have put the time and effort into the writing to make a really cool and interesting piece of storycraft here, instead of taking obvious shortcuts and cheaping out on the substance just hoping that the players project the narrative they want unto events, essentially just giving the writers credit for trying. Which a lot of people are obviously willing to do, and a lot of others aren't. I'm not. But that's just the story. The mechanics are pretty cool, and very close to being great, at least on Grounded difficulty. The aiming stability, or lack of it, is ridiculous, but otherwise I was impressed and had a good deal of fun. Could have done with less time spent staring at post-apocalyptic asses in skinny-jeans though. I've just about had it with games, movies and series full of roving angry people whose primary weapons are teeth and nails where the survivors don't think about protective clothing. Tough cargo pants and leather jackets aren't just for show, people. Well said.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 22, 2020 1:37:15 GMT
But the way how the story was executed is terrible. Because she came out to f nowhere murdering Joel, without bringing up why she wanted to hunt him down, and kill him from the beginning of the game. But all in all, I think Druckmann just want to tell his story so bad on the first game, and want to piss off fans who loved the first game. And on top of that, he sees gamers and critics who don't like the game as "less important". Pretty sure most of us expected him to die at some point in the game, I don't have a huge issue with that. And his last words are definitely badass, and unfortunately the only point in the scene where he seems to be acting like himself. Joel getting murdered at the start of the game could definitely have been done in a satisfying way. The problem with the way they did it is that it's very, very obvious to the player that they just wanted him dead for dramatic reasons and didn't care enough about doing him justice to actually write it in a way that made sense. To whit, for the scene in the ski lodge to occur the way it does requires that Joel is on patrol with Tommy in the same general area and at the exact same time that Abby and co. arrive from Seattle, and that Abby impulsively leaves her friends in a tissy fit coincidentally heading for their exact location, at the same time as a huge swarm of clickers bigger than anything we see in the entire first game just so happens to bulldoze past Jackson. It also requires both Joel and Tommy to act a hell of a lot more trusting - some would even say downright stupid - compared to both their characterizations in the previous game. And then it requires that Ellie is both on patrol at the same time as all this is going on, that she's the one out of all of Jesse's people to end up picking up Joel's trail, that she doesn't run into any trace of the massive army of clickers that were overrunning the area five minutes earlier, and that she similarly uncharacteristically bursts into a room full of armed hostiles without so much as peeking or listening at the door. And finally it requires that Abby and co. leave Ellie and Tommy alive to tell the tale for reasons that are never explained. Even though it's a terrible idea. If any single one of those contrivances hadn't occurred, Joel would either be alive because Abby's group gave up on the mission at seeing Jackson, or Ellie would never have known who had gotten him and Tommy, and the game wouldn't have happened. Which I think is why people are left with a feeling of "the writers fucking just went and killed Joel", rather than "Joel died when his extreme measures to protect Ellie caught up to him" which would have been the natural conclusion if the chain of causality actually made sense, rather than his death just being the result of plot shenanigans. I have a hard time imagining that someone who painstakingly wrote The Last of Us would deliberately want to disappoint or hurt the people who loved it. But it's clear that something's changed the man's priorities when fitting together a story since 2012, and it's a damn shame that it has.
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 22, 2020 2:02:40 GMT
But the way how the story was executed is terrible. Because she came out to f nowhere murdering Joel, without bringing up why she wanted to hunt him down, and kill him from the beginning of the game. But all in all, I think Druckmann just want to tell his story so bad on the first game, and want to piss off fans who loved the first game. And on top of that, he sees gamers and critics who don't like the game as "less important". Pretty sure most of us expected him to die at some point in the game, I don't have a huge issue with that. And his last words are definitely badass, and unfortunately the only point in the scene where he seems to be acting like himself. Joel getting murdered at the start of the game could definitely have been done in a satisfying way. The problem with the way they did it is that it's very, very obvious to the player that they just wanted him dead for dramatic reasons and didn't care enough about doing him justice to actually write it in a way that made sense. To whit, for the scene in the ski lodge to occur the way it does requires that Joel is on patrol with Tommy in the same general area and at the exact same time that Abby and co. arrive from Seattle, and that Abby impulsively leaves her friends in a tissy fit coincidentally heading for their exact location, at the same time as a huge swarm of clickers bigger than anything we see in the entire first game just so happens to bulldoze past Jackson. It also requires both Joel and Tommy to act a hell of a lot more trusting - some would even say downright stupid - compared to both their characterizations in the previous game. And then it requires that Ellie is both on patrol at the same time as all this is going on, that she's the one out of all of Jesse's people to end up picking up Joel's trail, that she doesn't run into any trace of the massive army of clickers that were overrunning the area five minutes earlier, that she similarly uncharacteristically bursts into a room full of armed hostiles without so much as peeking or listening at the door. And finally it requires that Abby and co. leave her and Tommy alive to tell the tale for reasons that are never explained and make no sense. If any single one of those contrivances hadn't occurred, Joel would either be alive because Abby's group gave up on the mission at seeing Jackson, or Ellie would never have known who had gotten him and Tommy, and the game wouldn't have happened. Which I think is why people are left with a feeling of "the writers fucking just went and killed Joel", rather than "Joel died when his extreme measures to protect Ellie caught up to him" which would have been the natural conclusion if the chain of causality actually made sense, rather than his death just being the result of plot shenanigans. I have a hard time imagining that someone who painstakingly wrote The Last of Us would deliberately want to disappoint or hurt the people who loved it. But it's clear that something's changed the man's priorities when fitting together a story since 2012, and it's a damn shame that it has. It would've been better if the sequel was about Abby, and her group was traveling to Seattle to join the WLF. How they're struggling to survive on a post apocalyptic world, and what would Abby would become when she lost the people that she loved, and cared for when they were taken away from her. That way, we could get the chance to know her and the group better, and get to appreciate and like Abby as a person. Instead of a character who was driven by revenge and hate, and just a plain sociopath. As a matter of fact, the story of revenge and hate on the sequel was supposed to be on the first game. Where Tess tortured Joel for killing her brother, and Ellie sworn revenge against Tess. But Bruce Straley stepped in and changed the story, because he believed that revenge does not fit the post-apocolyptic setting. I think that's why Druckmann wanted to push his poorly written story of revenge and hate on the sequel. Because, it wasn't on the first game. That's why the story feels so forced, poorly paced, and not well written because of his ego. And I think he was pissed off that his ideas didn't went in the first game.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 23, 2020 3:54:24 GMT
But the way how the story was executed is terrible. Because she came out to f nowhere murdering Joel, without bringing up why she wanted to hunt him down, and kill him from the beginning of the game. But all in all, I think Druckmann just want to tell his story so bad on the first game, and want to piss off fans who loved the first game. And on top of that, he sees gamers and critics who don't like the game as "less important". Pretty sure most of us expected him to die at some point in the game, I don't have a huge issue with that. And his last words are definitely badass, and unfortunately the only point in the scene where he seems to be acting like himself. Joel getting murdered at the start of the game could definitely have been done in a satisfying way. The problem with the way they did it is that it's very, very obvious to the player that they just wanted him dead for dramatic reasons and didn't care enough about doing him justice to actually write it in a way that made sense. To whit, for the scene in the ski lodge to occur the way it does requires that Joel is on patrol with Tommy in the same general area and at the exact same time that Abby and co. arrive from Seattle, and that Abby impulsively leaves her friends in a tissy fit coincidentally heading for their exact location, at the same time as a huge swarm of clickers bigger than anything we see in the entire first game just so happens to bulldoze past Jackson. It also requires both Joel and Tommy to act a hell of a lot more trusting - some would even say downright stupid - compared to both their characterizations in the previous game. And then it requires that Ellie is both on patrol at the same time as all this is going on, that she's the one out of all of Jesse's people to end up picking up Joel's trail, that she doesn't run into any trace of the massive army of clickers that were overrunning the area five minutes earlier, and that she similarly uncharacteristically bursts into a room full of armed hostiles without so much as peeking or listening at the door. And finally it requires that Abby and co. leave Ellie and Tommy alive to tell the tale for reasons that are never explained. Even though it's a terrible idea. If any single one of those contrivances hadn't occurred, Joel would either be alive because Abby's group gave up on the mission at seeing Jackson, or Ellie would never have known who had gotten him and Tommy, and the game wouldn't have happened. Which I think is why people are left with a feeling of "the writers fucking just went and killed Joel", rather than "Joel died when his extreme measures to protect Ellie caught up to him" which would have been the natural conclusion if the chain of causality actually made sense, rather than his death just being the result of plot shenanigans. I have a hard time imagining that someone who painstakingly wrote The Last of Us would deliberately want to disappoint or hurt the people who loved it. But it's clear that something's changed the man's priorities when fitting together a story since 2012, and it's a damn shame that it has. Well, from what I understand, Druckmann’s creative decisions were tempered by a fair amount of pushback, so the Last of Us was also the result of naysaying that kept some of the “stronger” stuff in line. By the time TLOU2 started coming about, that opposition had all but evaporated.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 23, 2020 12:33:47 GMT
Well, from what I understand, Druckmann’s creative decisions were tempered by a fair amount of pushback, so the Last of Us was also the result of naysaying that kept some of the “stronger” stuff in line. By the time TLOU2 started coming about, that opposition had all but evaporated. Haven't read up on either game's development, basically never do, but I still don't know if I believe that. The Last of Us just doesn't feel like the kind of game that was made as a compromise. The timeline also doesn't seem quite right. This was 2010-2012, before people collectively lost their marbles. The absolutely dumbass writing tendencies we're seeing all over the place now didn't start manifesting for real until a few years later. My own guess would be that "Dr. Uckmann" with his 'Brains' stat of 100 just drank a little too much of his own Kool-Aid after the first game's success, and ended up catching the Disney Star Wars bug in between installments like so many other creators have. "OMG, people who already support the themes and angles I want to work into the game are just going to applaud it automatically, regardless of things like structure, consistency and suspension of disbelief? That makes my job so much easier!"
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 23, 2020 13:26:56 GMT
Pretty sure most of us expected him to die at some point in the game, I don't have a huge issue with that. And his last words are definitely badass, and unfortunately the only point in the scene where he seems to be acting like himself. Joel getting murdered at the start of the game could definitely have been done in a satisfying way. The problem with the way they did it is that it's very, very obvious to the player that they just wanted him dead for dramatic reasons and didn't care enough about doing him justice to actually write it in a way that made sense. To whit, for the scene in the ski lodge to occur the way it does requires that Joel is on patrol with Tommy in the same general area and at the exact same time that Abby and co. arrive from Seattle, and that Abby impulsively leaves her friends in a tissy fit coincidentally heading for their exact location, at the same time as a huge swarm of clickers bigger than anything we see in the entire first game just so happens to bulldoze past Jackson. It also requires both Joel and Tommy to act a hell of a lot more trusting - some would even say downright stupid - compared to both their characterizations in the previous game. And then it requires that Ellie is both on patrol at the same time as all this is going on, that she's the one out of all of Jesse's people to end up picking up Joel's trail, that she doesn't run into any trace of the massive army of clickers that were overrunning the area five minutes earlier, and that she similarly uncharacteristically bursts into a room full of armed hostiles without so much as peeking or listening at the door. And finally it requires that Abby and co. leave Ellie and Tommy alive to tell the tale for reasons that are never explained. Even though it's a terrible idea. If any single one of those contrivances hadn't occurred, Joel would either be alive because Abby's group gave up on the mission at seeing Jackson, or Ellie would never have known who had gotten him and Tommy, and the game wouldn't have happened. Which I think is why people are left with a feeling of "the writers fucking just went and killed Joel", rather than "Joel died when his extreme measures to protect Ellie caught up to him" which would have been the natural conclusion if the chain of causality actually made sense, rather than his death just being the result of plot shenanigans. I have a hard time imagining that someone who painstakingly wrote The Last of Us would deliberately want to disappoint or hurt the people who loved it. But it's clear that something's changed the man's priorities when fitting together a story since 2012, and it's a damn shame that it has. Well, from what I understand, Druckmann’s creative decisions were tempered by a fair amount of pushback, so the Last of Us was also the result of naysaying that kept some of the “stronger” stuff in line. By the time TLOU2 started coming about, that opposition had all but evaporated. It does kind of explains why most of the creative team quit ND.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 23, 2020 23:51:17 GMT
It does kind of explains why most of the creative team quit ND. Gurgh. I hate those ultra-nebulous game industry critiques. You never know what an internet video game journalist might or might not consider an inhumane work environment, or whether or not they understand that adults can negotiate their own contracts and are kind of supposed to be able to stand up for themselves. And you just can't tell from the outside whether an office is psychologically terrorizing and whipping their employees like horses, or are collectively busting their asses together trying to create a magnum opus with just a few guys here and there who can't take the pressure and don't have the spine to quit, whining to anyone who'll listen. Who in turn will potentially ignore the statements of dozens of people who thrived on working like maniacs on something amazing in favor of the one who 'felt pressured' and talks about vacations as 'recovery time'. I sure as hell don't know what to think and whether to care on the basis of videos like that. Unionizing a new industry is hard work, obviously, but it's the only thing to really do about these issues. Telling people they should be wagging their fingers at a company isn't going to change anything.
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 24, 2020 3:42:47 GMT
It does kind of explains why most of the creative team quit ND. Gurgh. I hate those ultra-nebulous game industry critiques. You never know what an internet video game journalist might or might not consider an inhumane work environment, or whether or not they understand that adults can negotiate their own contracts and are kind of supposed to be able to stand up for themselves. And you just can't tell from the outside whether an office is psychologically terrorizing and whipping their employees like horses, or are collectively busting their asses together trying to create a magnum opus with just a few guys here and there who can't take the pressure and don't have the spine to quit, whining to anyone who'll listen. Who in turn will potentially ignore the statements of dozens of people who thrived on working like maniacs on something amazing in favor of the one who 'felt pressured' and talks about vacations as 'recovery time'. I sure as hell don't know what to think and whether to care on the basis of videos like that. Unionizing a new industry is hard work, obviously, but it's the only thing to really do about these issues. Telling people they should be wagging their fingers at a company isn't going to change anything. But there's something going on that a lot of devs are quitting ND. It could be excessive crunch time, office politics, or upper management. But it has to be a reason why the company has an exodus.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 24, 2020 4:50:12 GMT
But there's something going on that a lot of devs are quitting ND. It could be excessive crunch time, office politics, or upper management. But it has to be a reason why the company has an exodus. Well, obviously. People were pouring years of their lives into a really ambitious game that seemed promising and everybody was looking forward to, and it was all undermined by a creative director who was too busy ruminating on themes of violence and revenge to actually whip up a compelling story, or even one that made sense. I'd leave too, whether or not there was any kind of foul play. There's no future in an environment like that, where you work your ass off and the leadership is more interested in exploiting it for their own little crusades than actually doing their part.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 29,477 Likes: 104,097
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ღ N-Special
151
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104,097
Hrungr
More coffee...? More coffee.
29,477
August 2016
hrungr
Hrungr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Hrungr
18,258
65,767
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 26, 2020 16:33:16 GMT
- I'll keep these as twitter links so the gifs will remain intact. More...
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 29,477 Likes: 104,097
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ღ N-Special
151
0
104,097
Hrungr
More coffee...? More coffee.
29,477
August 2016
hrungr
Hrungr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Hrungr
18,258
65,767
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 26, 2020 16:34:18 GMT
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4588
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2,875
therevanchist25
1,741
Mar 15, 2017 23:07:06 GMT
March 2017
therevanchist25
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 27, 2020 21:59:47 GMT
Never forget...Sarah died for nothing.
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ღ Twelfth Level Geek
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8,898
Jeremiah12LGeek
Mostly silly, occasionally useful.
2,988
August 2016
jeremiah12thlvlgeek
Bottom
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Sept 27, 2020 23:09:05 GMT
Is it really necessary to keep posting the same video? O.o
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3,996
Blast Processor
"Why are you telling me this? I can read and draw my own conclusions." - Roach
1,439
August 2016
slotts
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Post by Blast Processor on Sept 28, 2020 0:04:21 GMT
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