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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 10, 2020 17:24:01 GMT
Solas doesn't like to lie
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 17:50:27 GMT
There's a point in the game where Solas straight-up says, "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."Or he could be doing his usual equivocation. PW says that every time he says that he saw something he adds "in the Fade" so you think that is how he knows rather than by personal experience but is also why he gets so shirty when people won't believe him, even though he admits that if he was really getting it from spirits in the Fade then they can have different perspectives of the same thing. Anyway, when he makes this statement, note the qualifier "in any lore". This statement then becomes perfectly true. There is nothing in lore that connects them, particularly any lore that is currently known in Thedas. However, until he says: "Nothing connects my people to the Old God dragons", then it is still possible there is a connection, it is just no one but Solas knows about it.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 10, 2020 18:08:40 GMT
There's a point in the game where Solas straight-up says, "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."Or he could be doing his usual equivocation. PW says that every time he says that he saw something he adds "in the Fade" so you think that is how he knows rather than by personal experience but is also why he gets so shirty when people won't believe him, even though he admits that if he was really getting it from spirits in the Fade then they can have different perspectives of the same thing. Anyway, when he makes this statement, note the qualifier "in any lore". This statement then becomes perfectly true. There is nothing in lore that connects them, particularly any lore that is currently known in Thedas. However, until he says: "Nothing connects my people to the Old God dragons", then it is still possible there is a connection, it is just no one but Solas knows about it. As I said, it's easy to tell when he's obfuscating something. In this case, when I hear "in any lore", it's like "in the Fade". It says to me that he's drawing from personal knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 18:51:27 GMT
There's a point in the game where Solas straight-up says, "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."Or he could be doing his usual equivocation. PW says that every time he says that he saw something he adds "in the Fade" so you think that is how he knows rather than by personal experience but is also why he gets so shirty when people won't believe him, even though he admits that if he was really getting it from spirits in the Fade then they can have different perspectives of the same thing. Anyway, when he makes this statement, note the qualifier "in any lore". This statement then becomes perfectly true. There is nothing in lore that connects them, particularly any lore that is currently known in Thedas. However, until he says: "Nothing connects my people to the Old God dragons", then it is still possible there is a connection, it is just no one but Solas knows about it. Yeah that particular reply from Solas was extremely suspicious. I think its overwhelmingly likely that the ancient elves/Evanuris in particular were connected in some way to the Old God dragons (the Trespasser murals are particularly suggestive here), Solas making weasel comment about them not being connected "in any lore" rather than them not being connected, full stop, is another piece of evidence on this point as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 18:52:17 GMT
There is a difference, though. "In the Fade" is where he is making a statement from personal experience but wishes to conceal that fact, whereas I feel "in any lore" is to conceal that there is a connection between the elves and the Old Gods. Otherwise he might have said "I have seen nothing in the Fade that connects them." The very fact that he appeals to "lore" rather than "the Fade" suggests he is trying to avoid an outright lie but that there is in fact a connection.
Think about it. If they had nothing to do with the ancient elves, why is he not more upfront about why he is so concerned about killing the last two arch-demons? He is constantly belittling the efforts of the Grey Wardens and expressing his hope they are right in their assumptions in a way that makes you suspect he knows more about the matter. Why not be more explicit? He only has to qualify it with "in the Fade", to get him off the hook. Yet he doesn't. He seems to realise that any light he could throw on the matter would be too revealing about him. Bearing in mind all that was revealed about Mythal and her activities in the Deep Roads, it seems likely he does know a great deal about the origins of the blight and the Old Gods.
For example, how can he say with certainty to Cassandra that the Old Gods like the Evanuris were not really gods unless he has direct knowledge of their origins? I assume that when he tells Cassandra that red lyrium is blighted it is after we were told this by Bianca or how would he know this? Of course he makes a throw away comment about how red lyrium came to be a the Shrine of Sacred Ashes right at the beginning of the game. Cassandra and Varric are talking about it but no one else should know anything about it, so how does he know what they are talking about and that magic might have caused it to be there?
By the way, could you remind me please, to whom did he make the statement about the Old Gods?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 10, 2020 19:39:51 GMT
There is a difference, though. "In the Fade" is where he is making a statement from personal experience but wishes to conceal that fact, whereas I feel "in any lore" is to conceal that there is a connection between the elves and the Old Gods. Otherwise he might have said "I have seen nothing in the Fade that connects them." The very fact that he appeals to "lore" rather than "the Fade" suggests he is trying to avoid an outright lie but that there is in fact a connection. Think about it. If they had nothing to do with the ancient elves, why is he not more upfront about why he is so concerned about killing the last two arch-demons? He is constantly belittling the efforts of the Grey Wardens and expressing his hope they are right in their assumptions in a way that makes you suspect he knows more about the matter. Why not be more explicit? He only has to qualify it with "in the Fade", to get him off the hook. Yet he doesn't. He seems to realise that any light he could throw on the matter would be too revealing about him. Bearing in mind all that was revealed about Mythal and her activities in the Deep Roads, it seems likely he does know a great deal about the origins of the blight and the Old Gods. For example, how can he say with certainty to Cassandra that the Old Gods like the Evanuris were not really gods unless he has direct knowledge of their origins? I assume that when he tells Cassandra that red lyrium is blighted it is after we were told this by Bianca or how would he know this? Of course he makes a throw away comment about how red lyrium came to be a the Shrine of Sacred Ashes right at the beginning of the game. Cassandra and Varric are talking about it but no one else should know anything about it, so how does he know what they are talking about and that magic might have caused it to be there? By the way, could you remind me please, to whom did he make the statement about the Old Gods? I think it was the Inquisitor. Also there being a connection would certainly explain why Flemeth was so eager to save its 'soul'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 20:09:20 GMT
Also there being a connection would certainly explain why Flemeth was so eager to save its 'soul'. Yes, it is a pity we didn't get more of an explanation about what was going on there. "Snatched from the jaws of darkness" suggests it was a rescue mission or at least she wanted to prevent the "darkness" from having it. Why would Flemeth/Mythal be wanting to absorb any power that wasn't equally ancient to her own?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 10, 2020 20:36:52 GMT
Also there being a connection would certainly explain why Flemeth was so eager to save its 'soul'. Yes, it is a pity we didn't get more of an explanation about what was going on there. "Snatched from the jaws of darkness" suggests it was a rescue mission or at least she wanted to prevent the "darkness" from having it. Why would Flemeth/Mythal be wanting to absorb any power that wasn't equally ancient to her own? that's the one thing I don't get though. The idea that I have that I like is that it makes a lot of sense for the Evanuris to be sundered from their bodies and their souls are trapped in the Fade behind Solas's trap while their bodies are in the real world deep roads. But if that were the case what did we 'rescue' in Origins?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 20:46:00 GMT
It says to me that he's drawing from personal knowledge. I've found the place where he makes this statement now. It is when you discuss Corypheus with him. I think it is pertinent that he makes the statement when the Inquisitor suggests he can use the orb to control the arch-demons. Solas responds that this would only be indirectly and then goes on to make the statement about the lore concerning the Old Gods. Given the context I think Solas was probably very concerned about the Inquisitor getting too near the truth about the connection between the Old Gods and the elves, hence his appeal to the lore. So the statement about the orb not being used directly to control the arch-demons was probably true, but the denial that follows is obscuring the truth. I notice that straight after the first statement, when the Inquisitor asks about the source of Corypheus' power, he says: "According to the lore, the Ancient Magisters of Tevinter received guidance from the Old Gods." So it seems clear that when he is referring to "the lore" he is speaking of human lore or possibly Chantry lore and it would certainly be the truth that there is nothing in that lore that makes any connection between the Old Gods and the elves, because in Chantry lore at least the elves are not mentioned at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 21:00:53 GMT
The idea that I have that I like is that it makes a lot of sense for the Evanuris to be sundered from their bodies and their souls are trapped in the Fade behind Solas's trap while their bodies are in the real world deep roads I think it may be more like the opposite, if they are the Evanuris, so their original bodies are trapped in the Fade but their split soul is in the dragon, just like Corypheus' was. Then the Evanuris can channel their thoughts through the dragon soul and onwards to those in the world above. In that scenario clearly the intent was to eventually manipulate those they spoke to in their dreams into breaking into the Black City and freeing them. However, I don't think they are Evanuris as in the Creators but rather the Forgotten Ones who rebelled against their rule. The Dalish got it right when they said that Fen'Harel locked away the Creators in the heavens, so why should they not have got it right that the other side in the war was imprisoned in the Abyss (Deep Roads). It would also fit with the idea that Fen'Harel was seen as one of the Creators (at least originally) but also trusted by the Forgotten Ones as well. It was odd how they suddenly changed the terminology from Creators and Forgotten Ones to Evanuris, so when he speaks of the Evanuris as the false gods, he could well mean both groups as in Dalish lore both sides are referred to as gods. As for what we rescue in Origins, it is clearly some essence of an ancient being, with enough "memory" of the time it came from to make the comments that Kieran does about the various races. Whether Creator or Forgotten One that would still make it connected with the Ancient Elves despite what Solas declared.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 10, 2020 21:10:04 GMT
It says to me that he's drawing from personal knowledge. I've found the place where he makes this statement now. It is when you discuss Corypheus with him. I think it is pertinent that he makes the statement when the Inquisitor suggests he can use the orb to control the arch-demons. Solas responds that this would only be indirectly and then goes on to make the statement about the lore concerning the Old Gods. Given the context I think Solas was probably very concerned about the Inquisitor getting too near the truth about the connection between the Old Gods and the elves, hence his appeal to the lore. So the statement about the orb not being used directly to control the arch-demons was probably true, but the denial that follows is obscuring the truth. I notice that straight after the first statement, when the Inquisitor asks about the source of Corypheus' power, he says: "According to the lore, the Ancient Magisters of Tevinter received guidance from the Old Gods." So it seems clear that when he is referring to "the lore" he is speaking of human lore or possibly Chantry lore and it would certainly be the truth that there is nothing in that lore that makes any connection between the Old Gods and the elves, because in Chantry lore at least the elves are not mentioned at all. Personally, I think Solas is telling the truth here. I think the Old Gods are important somehow, and have a connection to the Titans (or their power), but they're not the Evanuris (or ancient elves). I think the Evanuris are as Solas said - imprisoned in the Fade, only freed by bringing down Veil, though I'm sure they'll all wind up free in the end.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jul 10, 2020 21:46:00 GMT
We are slowly learning that there is a history between the ancient Elves and Dwarves and I certainly believe that The Old Gods are a key aspect in their relationship. Remember that Trespasser codex entry stating "Mythal gives you dreams"? Mythal, the ancient dragonlady protector? The Old Gods are Dragons... found in the deep roads. It's right in our faces.
Maybe the Old God Dragons were used to repurpose the connection between Titans and Dwarves? Or created a new connection between the Old God Dragons and Dwarves - moreso, used as a vessel for that connection? I can see each Dragon being a piece of Mythal, thus the "Mythal gives you dreams."-
There's a lot of interesting word choice when npcs discuss Andraste and Mythal, who both are symbolically related. The dragon cult spoke of Andraste coming back in all of her fullness as being more powerful than "all of the old god dragons combined." Interesting word choice. Abelelas even spoke of us not being able to understand Mythal "in her fullness." We have seen Mythal put pieces of herself in jewelry so I certainly would not be surprised if these dragons are pieces of herself as well.
I just wonder what her plans are? Maybe she is going to restore the blighted Titan? That would be interesting, seeing as there are theories that Solas is going to wake up the blighted Titan for a reckoning that'll destroy the veil. Mythal may as well be using him to wake up the Titan, just for her to go in and heal the being for her own reckoning.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 10, 2020 23:12:37 GMT
The idea that I have that I like is that it makes a lot of sense for the Evanuris to be sundered from their bodies and their souls are trapped in the Fade behind Solas's trap while their bodies are in the real world deep roads I think it may be more like the opposite, if they are the Evanuris, so their original bodies are trapped in the Fade but their split soul is in the dragon, just like Corypheus' was. Then the Evanuris can channel their thoughts through the dragon soul and onwards to those in the world above. In that scenario clearly the intent was to eventually manipulate those they spoke to in their dreams into breaking into the Black City and freeing them. However, I don't think they are Evanuris as in the Creators but rather the Forgotten Ones who rebelled against their rule. The Dalish got it right when they said that Fen'Harel locked away the Creators in the heavens, so why should they not have got it right that the other side in the war was imprisoned in the Abyss (Deep Roads). It would also fit with the idea that Fen'Harel was seen as one of the Creators (at least originally) but also trusted by the Forgotten Ones as well. It was odd how they suddenly changed the terminology from Creators and Forgotten Ones to Evanuris, so when he speaks of the Evanuris as the false gods, he could well mean both groups as in Dalish lore both sides are referred to as gods. As for what we rescue in Origins, it is clearly some essence of an ancient being, with enough "memory" of the time it came from to make the comments that Kieran does about the various races. Whether Creator or Forgotten One that would still make it connected with the Ancient Elves despite what Solas declared. If the first possibility that does make a lot of sense and it would also explain why Mythal needs to 'possess' Flemeth and why both of them need to keep on possessing other bodies down through the ages. Or at least that is one possibility. If it is the other...which again is probably the most likely. I do wonder if that is where more to the story came from on *why* the Evanuris decided to kill Mythal. Maybe she too was being a bit sympathetic to the other side or thinking the Evanuris went too far and that formed the division point which the rest of the collective group decided she must be dealt with. Or it could've simply been a disagreement over tactics or making them 'forgotten' in the first place. Of course we can't also discount the possibility that the Titans themselves are the Forgotten Ones considering they are quite literally the only group to fit that bill. I mean while the origins of the Old Gods might have been forgotten...if you are right...the Titans themselves entire existance was quite literally forgotten. By the Dwarves, by the rest of Thedas, and maybe even by themselves with 'they made the Earth forget' line that Cole mentions.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 11, 2020 8:08:22 GMT
I think the Old Gods are important somehow, and have a connection to the Titans (or their power), but they're not the Evanuris (or ancient elves). The exact quote is: "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons." Now again, that is still being evasive because if the Old Gods were connected to, say, the Titans as you suggest then they are also connected to his People. We now know that the Evanuris were involved in some way with the titans and that dragons were not only around at that time but that there was a prohibition against anyone not a god or their chosen from taking that form. So for his statement to be true the Old Gods would need to have arisen totally independently of the time before the Veil. In which case, why was Flemeth/Mythal so concerned with their welfare? Why was Solas so agitated by the Grey Wardens' plan to destroy the last two of them? If they are simple spirit gods, like Hakkon was in JoH, what were they doing underground? I'd really like them to be totally unconnected with the ancient elves because with all the lore reveals thus far pointing to them having a hand in everything, it would make a refreshing change for some completely independent group to emerge. However, after listening to what PW said about how Solas avoids directly lying about anything that he doesn't wish you to know, I am inclined not to take anything that he says at face value unless he makes an emphatic statement about it, for example when he admits responsibility for the Veil and the fall of the elven empire. Even in that conversation there was so much more he could have told us but didn't.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 11, 2020 8:30:17 GMT
We have seen Mythal put pieces of herself in jewelry so I certainly would not be surprised if these dragons are pieces of herself as well. This would certainly explain her concern to save one of those pieces from destruction. It would also explain them slumbering in the Deep Roads to await her return and the Old Gods speaking to their high priests through their Dreams. However, it doesn't explain why Dumat would urge the Magisters into breaking into the Eternal City, thus releasing the Blight on the world. Flemeth was definitely opposed to the Blight. Anyway, whatever their identity, until proven otherwise I shall assume that the Old Gods had their origins in the time of the Ancient Beings such as the Evanuris and the Titans, a time when the dragons ruled the skies, the time before the Veil, and Solas could have enlightened us on the whole issue but chose instead to evade and obscure the truth.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 11, 2020 15:24:15 GMT
I am still convinced that the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same. There's a point in the game where Solas straight-up says, "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."Solas doesn't like to lie, and it's easy to tell when he's obfuscating something, and with such a direct statement on the matter, I'm inclined to believe him. True, but sometimes the way he says things indicates that there may be a 2nd bottom there and 'nothing in any lore' is a peculiar type of wording. Like... yea, nothing in any LORE connects Old Gods to his people - but 'lore' ain't all knowledge or ways things can be connected, plus... do we really know who are Solas's people? He himself sometimes seems unsure.
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Post by Ieldra on Jul 12, 2020 17:25:12 GMT
We have seen Mythal put pieces of herself in jewelry so I certainly would not be surprised if these dragons are pieces of herself as well. This would certainly explain her concern to save one of those pieces from destruction. It would also explain them slumbering in the Deep Roads to await her return and the Old Gods speaking to their high priests through their Dreams. However, it doesn't explain why Dumat would urge the Magisters into breaking into the Eternal City, thus releasing the Blight on the world. Flemeth was definitely opposed to the Blight. Anyway, whatever their identity, until proven otherwise I shall assume that the Old Gods had their origins in the time of the Ancient Beings such as the Evanuris and the Titans, a time when the dragons ruled the skies, the time before the Veil, and Solas could have enlightened us on the whole issue but chose instead to evade and obscure the truth. The reason why I maintain my opinion that there is a link between the Old Gods and the Evanuris is that I find it hard to believe that the dragon aspects exist in both groups by random chance. Do I believe Solas is not intentionally misleading? If so, I'd also had to believe in that random chance. And Solas - well, he may be mostly honest, but he is also the elven trickster god. It would be not at all beyond him to tell the truth in a way that leads people to believe an untruth - and get away with it. If there is anyone who could sell us such things without arousing suspicion, it's him. The only question is whether the writers at Bioware could successfully write him that way. It would be rather uncharacteristically subtle.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 12, 2020 18:35:07 GMT
The only question is whether the writers at Bioware could successfully write him that way. It would be rather uncharacteristically subtle. Well according to PW he did write him that way. He wanted to avoid him telling outright lies but instead obscuring the truth with cleverly constructed phrasing and he did this because it would be in character for someone known as a trickster to play with words in this way to fool the listener. It is classic equivocation. Of course, sometimes he'd let his the mask slip briefly. He does this after the Winter Palace and also in some of his conversations with companions but when challenged he quickly recovers himself. Of course, there are some places where I would have liked to have questioned him further first time through, even before I knew he was Fen'Harel, particularly after the Temple of Mythal but the writers didn't allow this. Still, once armed with the information that he is the Dread Wolf and how he avoids revealing what he does not wish to, it is pretty easy to spot where he is doing this. I am convinced his conversations with the Inquisitor when he refers to the "lore" to qualify his answers as definite examples of when he was skirting round the truth. The reason why I maintain my opinion that there is a link between the Old Gods and the Evanuris is that I find it hard to believe that the dragon aspects exist in both groups by random chance.
Well it is possible for worship of dragon gods to arise independently. They are after all supremely powerful creatures and we have an example in Hakkon of a god in dragon form who has no connection with either the Evanuris or the Old Gods. Where it seems to become more than coincidence is the fact that both the Evanuris/Creators/Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods were imprisoned at some point. Also the fact the Corypheus had apparently learned the secret of effective immortality that must have been known to the Evanuris, since Solas points out how difficult they are to kill permanently, and to Flemeth via Mythal, plus would seem behind the Arch-demons' ability to cheat death initially. Add in the fact that in both elven and Tevtiner mythology, the Eternal/Golden/Black City was home to their gods and the similarities are too great to put down to mere coincidence.
Incidentally I find it interesting that Corypheus wasn't aware that his god was imprisoned in the depths of the earth but thought he was going to find him in the Golden City, having been urged/invited there by the voice in his dreams. Instead he found an empty throne, corruption and dead whispers but apparently there definitely was a throne, suggesting that someone must have once sat in it.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 12, 2020 18:47:23 GMT
The only question is whether the writers at Bioware could successfully write him that way. It would be rather uncharacteristically subtle. Well according to PW he did write him that way. He wanted to avoid him telling outright lies but instead obscuring the truth with cleverly constructed phrasing and he did this because it would be in character for someone known as a trickster to play with words in this way to fool the listener. It is classic equivocation. Of course, sometimes he'd let his the mask slip briefly. He does this after the Winter Palace and also in some of his conversations with companions but when challenged he quickly recovers himself. Of course, there are some places where I would have liked to have questioned him further first time through, even before I knew he was Fen'Harel, particularly after the Temple of Mythal but the writers didn't allow this. Still, once armed with the information that he is the Dread Wolf and how he avoids revealing what he does not wish to, it is pretty easy to spot where he is doing this. I am convinced his conversations with the Inquisitor when he refers to the "lore" to qualify his answers as definite examples of when he was skirting round the truth. The reason why I maintain my opinion that there is a link between the Old Gods and the Evanuris is that I find it hard to believe that the dragon aspects exist in both groups by random chance.
Well it is possible for worship of dragon gods to arise independently. They are after all supremely powerful creatures and we have an example in Hakkon of a god in dragon form who has no connection with either the Evanuris or the Old Gods. Where it seems to become more than coincidence is the fact that both the Evanuris/Creators/Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods were imprisoned at some point. Also the fact the Corypheus had apparently learned the secret of effective immortality that must have been known to the Evanuris, since Solas points out how difficult they are to kill permanently, and to Flemeth via Mythal, plus would seem behind the Arch-demons' ability to cheat death initially. Add in the fact that in both elven and Tevtiner mythology, the Eternal/Golden/Black City was home to their gods and the similarities are too great to put down to mere coincidence.
Incidentally I find it interesting that Corypheus wasn't aware that his god was imprisoned in the depths of the earth but thought he was going to find him in the Golden City, having been urged/invited there by the voice in his dreams. Instead he found an empty throne, corruption and dead whispers but apparently there definitely was a throne, suggesting that someone must have once sat in it. nevermind Andrastae the dragon the Cult worshipped. It is worth pointing out that since Tevinter is built on the bones of the Elvhen that might explain a lot of these coincidences too. Similar things have happened IRL.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 12, 2020 19:48:56 GMT
It is worth pointing out that since Tevinter is built on the bones of the Elvhen that might explain a lot of these coincidences too
Well I've always maintained the images in the mosaics are not obviously elven, particularly if as history suggests the elves had largely gone into retreat by this time. They definitely don't look human but they might make you think of draconic beings.
Now it is unlikely they would find them altogether like this but if you leave out Ghilan'nain and Fen'Harel, who were not originally part of the pantheon, then you have seven gods, some of whose images would fit with the portfolio of some of the Old Gods:
Sylaise would easily fit Toth as both are connected with fire. Dirthamen would fit with Dumat, god of silence, which hands being held across the mouth would suggest. June would fit with Uthemiel if he was originally known as the architect/crafter of beauty rather than just beauty. Mythal would fit with Andoral who was originally the goddess of unity (only later slaves), so embracing many figures is appropriate. Falon'Din might fit with Lusacan with the staff guiding people through the night.
That just leaves Razikale the goddess of mysteries and Zazikel, originally the goddess of freedom, later chaos. As the image of Elgar'nan shows nothing in particular, perhaps his image was given to Razikale and that would leave Andruil, known for her free spirit among the Dalish, as the image applied to Zazikel.
Anyway as elven murals may well have shown their gods in both elven form (with horned headdresses) and dragon form, it is possible to see how they could have adopted the images and applied them to their own gods. Or if the Old Gods were merely demons masquerading as gods, may be when the early humans asked if these images were of them, they didn't deny it.
Still if these were all coincidences, it still doesn't explain how the Old Gods came to be imprisoned in the Deep Roads if it happened subsequent to the raising of the Veil. If it happened before the Veil then it had to have been connected with the elves in some way.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2020 3:42:28 GMT
I mean the connection may be as simple as the Great Dragons were the original badass bitches whose blood is "the blood of the world" according to Yavana and all the powerful beings ( old gods, creators, forgotten ones, hakkon,) want to emulate them.
The people of Thedas may not remember individual ancient dragons but they remember the power and the fear of them, and it seems like every powerful being since had taken on that shape too. Whether deliberately to take advantage, or because they're a spirit and it is their nature to take on the form people expect of them.
Depending on how much smarter than High dragons Great Dragons are the Old Gods might BE Great dragons. We know basically nothing about them, maybe what makes them so great is being mages.
If theoretical ancient Elven mages who like to take on the shape of a Dragon could call out to the darkspawn to free them, then presumably an ancient great dragon mage could theoretically do the same. Possibly banking on their dragon ability to create cysts around disease to protect them.
If the old gods (whatever they are) want the darkspawn to find them at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2020 8:19:57 GMT
I mean the connection may be as simple as the Great Dragons were the original badass bitches whose blood is "the blood of the world" according to Yavana and all the powerful beings ( old gods, creators, forgotten ones, hakkon,) want to emulate them. It is possible that the Great Dragons were earthbound creatures that in some dim and distant past were connected with the titans through their blood; hence the quote about their blood being the blood of the world. Yavana also suggested that in killing off the dragons the humans were unwittingly bringing about their own destruction, so the answer to the Blight might well lie with the Great Dragons, which is why Flemeth and Yavana wanted to preserve them. Alternatively, the Great Dragons would be able to counter the Evanuris should they be released. I've just had another wild thought and that is that may be the sea from which Mythal is said to have arisen was not a literal water sea but a sea of lyrium. That would put a whole new spin on the matter. Thus she was a sort of earth mother figure and leader of the dragons who made a union with Elgar'nan in order to bring about peace. In which case she didn't kill the titan but just subdued it, as the Dalish legends suggest. Part of the deal was that she would be the dispenser of justice and arbitrator in future disputes. Anyway, that is just a random musing of my own. One thing I forgot about in defining which lore we are talking about is the lore of the Qun. Now according to the comic series, Arishok Sten claimed that the Old Gods are mentioned in the Tome of Koslun. This is curious because we have never definitively been told exactly when Koslun lived. However, for this to be written in the Tome of Koslun, I would have thought he must have been around at least at the time of ancient Tevinter. Now the words of Sten are quite precise. He doesn't say that their priesthood gained power through learning blood magic from the Old Gods but that the Old Gods granted power to their worshipers through the sacrifices of blood and implies that this was not simple blood magic as the power was lost to them when the Old Gods fell silent. This actually agrees with passages in the Chant of Light, likely based off old oral traditions of the barbarians, which suggests that the Old Gods either granted power or acted on behalf of their worshipers in response to such sacrifices. In the Chant of Light the initial sacrifices were animals rather than humans, which would make sense as an offering to a dragon. The fact that the Old Gods were able to communicate directly with their priesthood and grant power to them, does suggest that they were not connected with the Creators at least. The elves never stopped praying to their gods but the gods fell silent and were unable to aid them from the time of their imprisonment. If the Old Gods were connected in some way with the Creators then why did they stop communicating with their faithful? However, this may not apply to the Forgotten Ones. The elves who worshipped them in the Dales were said to gain a terrible and twisted strength from this but at the price of being cut off from their people. The elves of the Tirashan appeared to offer up their enemies in sacrifice to their gods in the midst of battle, gods not familiar to the reporter. So there are similarities between the worship apparently demanded by the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods. If the Forgotten Ones were not really elves but Great Dragons that opposed the rule of the Evanuris, then technically Solas would have been telling the truth. It was suggested even as far back as DAO that perhaps the dragons hadn't been imprisoned at all, at least not initially but had merely gone into hibernation. In his story about a battle between Andruil and one of the Forgotten Ones, Anaris, Felassan recounts that on account of the wounds they received, both gods went into a magical slumber to recover their strength. So it is still plausible that the Old Gods originally retreated to the Deep Roads to recover their strength after their war with the Evanuris; may be Solas even suggested this to them as a way of utilising the truce productively and then he sealed their bed chambers. If the Old Gods date from a later time then the Great Dragons could still have gone into hibernation for a time, may be to preserve their strength or longevity. It is also possible that the voice speaking to Corypheus in his dreams, urging him to break into the Golden City, was not Dumat at all but some other being that wanted the Old Gods destroyed or at least corrupted by the Blight. If my crazy theory is in any way correct and Mythal was the original protector of dragons, then it would at least explain why Flemeth wanted to save the Old God's soul.
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Post by Solas on Jul 13, 2020 10:21:25 GMT
Zazikel is male. Where is Andoral's gender specified? I'm worried I missed it lol
From what I can see lore refers to Razikale as she, and Dumat, Zazikel, Lusacan and Urthemiel as he.
Toth and Andoral are the ones where I can't find clear references to them one way or the other.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2020 13:23:39 GMT
Zazikel is male. Where is Andoral's gender specified? I'm worried I missed it lol World of Thedas p.21 concerning Holidays in Thedas. Summerday was once called "Andoralis" and dedicated to Andoral, the Old God of Unity. Admittedly that is a masculine designation but with the associations with marriage and thus indirectly with fertility, it could have originally been a goddess. There is no doubt about Zazikel though. Satinalia was originally dedicated to the Old Goddess of Freedom. The odd thing about these two is that they changed their area of patronage in the religious section. So were the editors really that careless? Or could it be that this came about through a shift of emphasis in later Tevinter once slavery became more commonplace? Thus a goddess of freedom became something of a contradiction and so was instead associated with chaos, whilst the god/goddess of unity, possibly originally symbolised by a linked chain, was switched to being the patron of slavery. It is also possible that the author of WoT1 (who is meant to be an in-world historian) was simply drawing on different sources and copied them down without bothering about the discrepancies. So they probably got their information in the religious section from the Canticle of Silence, Hessarian's propaganda against the Old God worship and thus may have involved deliberate misrepresentation of them. (I use this as an explanation because there is no correction made in the List of Errata at the end of WoT2 as there is for other contradictions in the text for WoT1, so assume they are either deliberate or I am the only person in the world who spotted this - which seems extremely unlikely.)
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2020 13:56:11 GMT
Zazikel is male. Where is Andoral's gender specified? I'm worried I missed it lol From what I can see lore refers to Razikale as she, and Dumat, Zazikel, Lusacan and Urthemiel as he. Toth and Andoral are the ones where I can't find clear references to them one way or the other. WoT1 in the calender section p.21 "Satinalua: Once dedicated to the Old Goddess of Freedom, Zazikel- but now attributed more to the second moon, Satina-" Zazikel is refered as Female here. Then in the religion chapter on page 123 in the list The Seven Old Gods: "Zazikel: Dragon of Freedom" no indication of gender. Though neither is there on the rest of that list. They're all just refered to as dragon of, though Dumat is refered to with male pronouns in the rest of the Tevinter Religion section. Finally on the list of archdemons in the Blight chapter p. 147 Zazikel is now the Dragon of Chaos and refers to "his death" and that "As an Old God, Zazikel represented freedom." The over all impression the book left me was that the perception of Zazikel's gender had changed over time just as what they were the god/goddess of has. Makes you wonder whether any of the other genders have changed over time.
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