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Post by Solas on Jul 13, 2020 14:20:39 GMT
That part of the World of Thedas entry was incorrect. Ben Gelinas clarified that on Twitter, that it was an error, and stated that Zazikel is male. He mentioned that later on in WoT Zazikel is referred to correctly as a he. The citation for the tweet is on the wiki. All of the Old Gods are (usually) called "gods". It's less a masculine designation in that context and more the gender neutral usage of the term as when we might say something like "the gods are watching". They're called the Old Gods collectively as a group even though Razikale is female. (It's possible some of the genders changed over time, or were/are incorrect in-universe, or what does gender even matter to a god or god-like entity, really? I agree but that's not what I mean. I just mean in terms of what instances of plain dry mentions of gender/indicators such as pronouns in the lore are there. Hope this makes sense.) For the Andoral question, I'm after clear references, not assumption or speculation. In TN for instance Teia named her male horse after Andoral, so it's possible to see that and think "maybe she was naming it a male name/after a male entity" but it could just as easily not matter (people name their pets all kinds of random ways and stuff). Not conclusive. For Dumat, Lusacan, Zazikel, Urthemiel and Razikale, there is either lore references calling them a she or a he (e.g. Razikale-related inscriptions in JoH, Call of the Dark item description for Lusacan, codex entries, etc) or WoG specifying which. In the cases of the remaining 2, Andoral and Toth, I can't find anything concrete one way or the other. The wiki lists them as male but I'm wondering where that information came from? Or if it's just an assumption in the absence of clear info. From what I can see the roster looks like this: Razikale - she Dumat, Lusacan, Zazikel, Urthemiel - he Andoral and Toth - not mentioned But I'm worried I'm missing a reference here or a mention there for the last 2 and wondering if it is actually specified somewhere and I'm just not aware of it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2020 17:23:51 GMT
But I'm worried I'm missing a reference here or a mention there for the last 2 and wondering if it is actually specified somewhere and I'm just not aware of it.
No, I don't think there has been anything specific apart from the fact they are referred to as Old Gods, which as you say is true of Razikale even though we know she is female. Also, as people pointed out in the past, it was odd that people should automatically consider them male considering that the big dragons, High and Great, are always female.
Incidentally, I love how things are only clarified on Twitter and not in WoT2; not everybody reads Twitter who bought the books. Still, I've pretty much given up on World of Thedas now as a source of accurate lore as it has so often been disproved by later revelations whether in game or other media.
Along with correcting the gender, did he happen to mention if Zazikel is Freedom or Chaos? Is Andoral Unity or Slaves? I must say with Andoral unity makes far more sense considering their festival was associated with marriage and I've come up with a personal explanation for why Zazikel might have changed over time but it would be nice if the writers would actually confirm this or give an alternative explanation.
As I say, the Canticle of Silence in WoT2 has their high priests designated as the Appraiser of Slavery and the Madman of Chaos, but we are told that work was propaganda by Hessarian so I suppose he could have deliberately altered them. However, considering the Old Gods were still being worshipped at that time, wouldn't his readers have noticed the error?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2020 23:24:06 GMT
If Zazikel being goddess of freedom instead of God was a mistake then it's weird they didn't put that on the WoT1 errata section in WoT2. They put much more smaller and harder to notice things on there and had evidently been alerted to it through Twitter if nothing else.
Did they decide to keep the mistake? Decide that some people did believe that zazikel was a goddess or that some scholors may have translated it that way? Just straight up felt that it didn't matter since all reference to gender of the old gods is only human perception/projection that has little to do with the realities of giant magic lizards anyway?
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Post by Solas on Jul 14, 2020 3:11:12 GMT
The tweet is from 2013 and has presumably been referenced on the wiki this whole time. A quick wiki search for "Zazikel" and the second line in the info box is 'gender: male' with the link. I guess they forgot it from the list of error clarifications in WoT, stuff happens. Even error lists can miss things out. BW forgot a whole ass moon after all. It's also the case that in the absence of Ben's clarification, we had one lore reference saying Zazikel is female and one saying Zazikel is male, so even then it wouldn't be a sure thing.
The tweet just reads "That's an unfortunate typo on page 21. It's correct on page 147. Zazikel is male." so nothing on the attributes/domain Zazikel and Andoral preside over. I'd guess that there are interesting lore reasons that will be revealed at some point re: Zazikel and Andoral, or perhaps Tevene society's interpretations of them over time, that are the reason why they have more than one 'domain', or why it changed.
Or maybe the multiple domain thing is the case for all of the Old Gods, it's just that we haven't got the additional info yet on the rest of them. It reminds me of the dual aspects of the Evanuris and the reality of the Evanuris vs the portrayal of the Creators in Dalish lore e.g. Vengeance and Justice, goddess of hunting vs goddess of sacrifice. Maybe the truth is a mix of both? Chaos is what can happen when there is absolute freedom, and slaves are 'united' in an effed up kinda way since they're all bound and controlled. The traits are related.
Interestingly Andoral even has three titles/attributes: Unity, Chains and Slaves. (ofc the latter two are similar) Or it could simply be sth like internal changes, accidental oversight, in-universe biases etc.
Anyway the reason I asked was because lately I was thinking about the theory that the Old Gods are (or were, as the case may be) the imprisoned Evanuris, so the seven minus Mythal and Solas. Not saying this is or isn't the case, there are lots of other theories, just mentioning the context of my query. Over the years people have 'matched up' the Old Gods with the Evanuris in a couple different combinations based on similarities in the traits etc associated with each deity and stuff like process of elimination. In the last couple days I was wondering about whether the gender split of the Evanuris matched the gender split of the Old Gods. There are plenty of reasons why that could be irrelevant (which can be listed and discussed at length so I won't get into it), but for the purposes of simplicity and the hypothetical scenario, I had "it would match" as an assumption. I was then curious to find that I couldn't find any references at all to the genders of Andoral and Toth (if anyone is aware of one though do pls tell me lol I'm dying to know). So it appears that male is a fan assumption? And that it's therefore possible they're female, in which case the split of 3 female and 4 male OGs would match the ratio found in those 7 Evanuris. Then I wondered about 'mapping' gender first then doing the process of god-trait-comparison and elimination. So like.. Razikale is female, and so the candidates list would be narrowed to Andruil, Sylaise and Ghilan'nain. Then, the constellation of Eluvia is associated with Razikale and it's also known as Sacrifice. Andruil was a goddess of sacrifice, so maybe there's a connection there. Stuff like that. Trouble explaining myself so I hope this makes sense.
Dunno that I subscribe to the theory that OG=Evanuris anyway, so it's kinda just.. academic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2020 11:33:04 GMT
Interestingly Andoral even has three titles/attributes: Unity, Chains and Slaves. (ofc the latter two are similar) Or it could simply be sth like internal changes, accidental oversight, in-universe biases etc. I could imagine unity being brought to the fore when the three kingdoms were united into the Imperium and, as I say above, unity would also fit with the feast of Andoralis being associated with marriage. So if there was no correction of this designation in the Tweet, I'm going to assume that Andoral started off as a patron of marriage and unity, then only later took on slaves as well when the number of slaves in the Imperium was boosted by the conquest of the elves in Arlathan forest. Now since slaves were an important part of the blood sacrifices, then that could fit with Andruil as the goddess of sacrifice. Also since Andruil was the deity of hunting, it could also fit with slave hunters tracking down errant slaves in order to maintain the unity and stability of their society. Previously perhaps Andoral was associated with tracking down traitors and criminals for the same reason. It is never clear exactly what benefits their worshipers of the Old Gods gained from their patronage but according to Koslun they did receive something tangible for their sacrifices to the Old Gods, which must have been more than the blood magic spells that are still known in Thedas because you can get these benefits from ordinary blood magic with no deities involved. Prior to the Veil the same was true of petitioners to the Evanuris, whether it was some action on their behalf, as with Mythal, or whether it was to appease them so they wouldn't harm/hunt them, as with Andruil. It is also true of the Avvar gods. What puzzles me if you link the Old Gods to the Evanuris is why did they stop communicating with the elves and switch to humans? The only answer I can come up with is that they wished to avoid the notice of Fen'Harel. He was more tuned in to the ancient elves and spirits, not giving other races much thought at all, so if they were trying to find a way to circumvent him and free themselves, the humans were the obvious option because they did have mages among them. Of course the same comment applies to the Forgotten Ones if they were also imprisoned by Fen'Harel as the Dalish myth maintains. Whoever the Old Gods were, if they were truly the dragons in the Deep Roads, then it would seem they needed tainted creatures to free them. Alternatively, if the Old Gods were some other beings that wanted to destroy the dragons, why would this be? Now it would seem the Arch-demons were genuinely the Old Gods because that is how Morrigan refers to the soul and she was taught by Flemeth, so unless they were both being deliberately evasive about the true identity of the soul that was being rescued, we must assume it was that of an Old God. Also it would seem that the Grey Wardens must somehow be informed of the identity of the Old God via their link with it. Otherwise, how would anyone know which Old God had arisen as an Arch-demon? I can understand Dumat being identified by his worshipers but the later Arch-demons arose after Old God worship had been eradicated, except for a few cults, and the Old Gods had been silent for centuries, so how would anyone know what god had appeared on the surface? I have also never understood why the Grey Wardens know where the last two Old Gods are located if they aren't already tainted. The Grey Wardens are linked to the Arch-demon through the taint but if the Old Gods are only tainted when the darkspawn break through to their prison, why can the Wardens (and the darkspawn) already hear them?
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Post by Solas on Jul 14, 2020 12:49:06 GMT
I think Andruil a "goddess of sacrifice" + Razikale's associated constellation often being known as "Sacrifice" + "the blood of the sacrifices" in her temple inscriptions is simpler. "Madness has filled the silence" also rings of Andruil coming back crazy from the Void. I agree w/ Toth as the Dragon of Fire = Sylaise since Sylaise is the hearthkeeper who gave the elves fire in Dalish lore and her "fire cannot be quenched". My understanding is the given in-universe explanation for 'which OG was it' is "The archdemons have been identified only after years of argument among scholars". There must be something on which to base conjecture and research/debate I guess. Wardens have their own Warden scholars and that big library at Weisshaupt is probably a treasure trove, only they're secretive about it because Grey Wardens gonna Warden. There's also a point in Last Flight where the Wardens mid-Blight know it's Andoral. The Fourth Blight did last 12 years I suppose. But then they knew Urthemiel was it during the Fifth Blight and that was only 1 year. This is prolly kinda off-topic for this thread
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jul 15, 2020 22:52:35 GMT
I"m just going to leave this here; David Gaider, in 2009, about Chantry/Old God/Elven religion overlap: "Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete."
The Imperium's contempt for elven culture certainly didn't stop Cory and his search for elven orbs and mirrors. We also know now that Elves, specifically the Evanuris, were religously connected with dragons. Dragons are mentioned as "divine," in the Ancient Elven Writing codex, and only reserved for GODS and their chosen. If the elves worshipped dragons and the Evanuris, I wouldn't be surprised if their religion involved worshipping the Evanuris as dragons. Connecting that with what Gaider said, it almost sounds to me as if he's suggesting that Old God Worship/Religion = Ancient Elven Worship/Religion. The Magisters may have known who the Evanuris were, bought their propaganda like the ancient elves, and turned their religion into something of their own. That kinda shoots my Mythal theory, but if true, I really have to wonder what Mythal could possibly do with the Evanuris souls.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jul 16, 2020 7:29:18 GMT
There's a difference between recognizing the practicality of a culture's resources or artifacts and actually converting to their religion. Christianity borrowed a lot of elements from the various cultures it tried to spread to but that was because it was the religion that needed to be accepted, in this case Tevinter was already the dominant culture with, I'm assuming, already a dominant religion (or at least cults that shared some commonalities). Not saying they couldn't appropriate elements they thought were going to be useful and get them more power but outright worshiping what used to be the Elvhen gods, I'm not sure.
Also, I never thought of the Evanuris worship = dragon worship to be a thing with the elves, more like a status symbol. We know dragons are animals, not mages who shape-shifted into them and then forgot how to shift back. It's more akin to you needing a lot of power to turn into a dragon and the Evanuris had that much power, so turning into a dragon is something only they did because they wanted that level of power to be associated only with them, not the common folk, as well. Kind of like how in Heian period Japan only the Emperor would wear a certain shade of the color green, the common folk and even the courtiers by law weren't allowed to. That doesn't mean they worshiped the color, they merely recognized the position, power and influence the emperor had and it just wasn't allowed for you to associate outside your rank.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2020 8:44:59 GMT
Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Either they hadn't got that far with deciding on the lore concerning Mythal and the other elven gods or DG was doing a Solas on us here. Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete."
Considering right from DAO Flemeth can take the form of a dragon and she is revived in DA2 at the shrine to Mythal, it seems pretty clear that for her at least they had already decided was an elven god/dragon. So DG was being crafty in referring only to the lore revealed thus far by the Dalish, which has since been shown to be incomplete. Bear in mind also in his comic series Yavana revealed there was a time before the Veil when dragons ruled the skies. It was the first mention that the Veil had not always existed, which we now know was the time of the elven empire when it was ruled by the Evanuris who had strict rules about who could take the form of dragons. Of course that doesn't mean that dragons did not exist independently of them but even the Great Dragon that Yavana revived, whilst exhibiting clear intelligence, did not seem to be on a level with Yavana for magical ability. So if the Old Gods were not connected in any way with the Evanuris/Forgotten Ones, then at the very least they must have been like Hakkon, a dragon possessed by a spirit/demon. Thus, if we are correct that the Evanuris were originally spirits that took on material forms, then there is still a kinship between them. I think the biggest clue is in Flemeth/Mythal's desire to preserve the Old God soul from destruction. This suggests a being superior to Hakkon in JoH and capable of giving power to host that Mythal might desire. Of course, it may be that the designation given to them after they arise during a Blight is pretty much spot on; they are Arch-demons/spirits, the highest level of spirit and what the Evanuris once were before they crossed over from the Fade. At this stage I am starting to avoid calling them elves because I am not altogether sure that they were. The elves certainly saw them as their leaders and later gods, or as the Dalish call them, their Creators but I get the sense that they were more than just elves as we think of them. This is partly borne out by the fact that Flemeth called Mythal the "wisp of an ancient being", rather than an ancient elf or god.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jul 16, 2020 14:24:13 GMT
There's a difference between recognizing the practicality of a culture's resources or artifacts and actually converting to their religion. Christianity borrowed a lot of elements from the various cultures it tried to spread to but that was because it was the religion that needed to be accepted, in this case Tevinter was already the dominant culture with, I'm assuming, already a dominant religion (or at least cults that shared some commonalities). Not saying they couldn't appropriate elements they thought were going to be useful and get them more power but outright worshiping what used to be the Elvhen gods, I'm not sure. I realize that, but I don't think I ever said that Tevinter completely converted into Elvhen Relgion. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but may point was that, seeing as the story behind Tevinter and the Elves has been unraveling in the games since DG'S post, and that Tevinter has been known to "Tevinter-wash" old Elvhen society, that it fits the bill for Tevinter to borrow aspects from their religion as well and put thier name on it, just like they put their name on Elvhen status and cut of their ears. I'm speculating that Tevinter simply stole aspects of their religion and called it their own, much like the they did to the rest of Elvhen society. If they borrowed magical mirrors and orbs for power, why would they stop there, if worshipping Elvhen gods granted them power too?. You would say this about the Evanuris literally gatekeeeping whole beings for power, but also believe they wouldn't call for worship under these forms? If The Evanuris wanted power, wouldn't it make sense to use a "divine" symbol to gain more power through worship? Why even turn into dragons to be seen as divine, but not to be worshipped as divine? I don't think that flew over their heads. If the Evanuris did indeed gatekeep like the codex I mentioned suggested, then the ancient elves (depending on what they remember... cough) may have only known dragons to be the Evanuris and their chosen. That was the propaganda created, no? It seems as if said codex was the beginning of the end of that propaganda.
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Post by nanotm on Jul 21, 2020 23:05:08 GMT
how can that possibly be part of Thedas ????? there is zero cheese anywhere !!!!
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2020 23:45:15 GMT
how can that possibly be part of Thedas ????? there is zero cheese anywhere !!!! ...What if the red stuff is a new kind of cheese?
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Post by The Elder King on Jul 22, 2020 8:23:50 GMT
Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Either they hadn't got that far with deciding on the lore concerning Mythal and the other elven gods or DG was doing a Solas on us here. Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete."
Considering right from DAO Flemeth can take the form of a dragon and she is revived in DA2 at the shrine to Mythal, it seems pretty clear that for her at least they had already decided was an elven god/dragon. So DG was being crafty in referring only to the lore revealed thus far by the Dalish, which has since been shown to be incomplete. Bear in mind also in his comic series Yavana revealed there was a time before the Veil when dragons ruled the skies. It was the first mention that the Veil had not always existed, which we now know was the time of the elven empire when it was ruled by the Evanuris who had strict rules about who could take the form of dragons. Of course that doesn't mean that dragons did not exist independently of them but even the Great Dragon that Yavana revived, whilst exhibiting clear intelligence, did not seem to be on a level with Yavana for magical ability. So if the Old Gods were not connected in any way with the Evanuris/Forgotten Ones, then at the very least they must have been like Hakkon, a dragon possessed by a spirit/demon. Thus, if we are correct that the Evanuris were originally spirits that took on material forms, then there is still a kinship between them. I think the biggest clue is in Flemeth/Mythal's desire to preserve the Old God soul from destruction. This suggests a being superior to Hakkon in JoH and capable of giving power to host that Mythal might desire. Of course, it may be that the designation given to them after they arise during a Blight is pretty much spot on; they are Arch-demons/spirits, the highest level of spirit and what the Evanuris once were before they crossed over from the Fade. At this stage I am starting to avoid calling them elves because I am not altogether sure that they were. The elves certainly saw them as their leaders and later gods, or as the Dalish call them, their Creators but I get the sense that they were more than just elves as we think of them. This is partly borne out by the fact that Flemeth called Mythal the "wisp of an ancient being", rather than an ancient elf or god. I also think it's quite possible that Flemeth was written from the start to be Mythal, but that is mostly based by the fact that between DAO and DA2 there wasn't much development time, so I don't think it'd be something that they came up in that short time, and in DA2, as you pointed out, the connection between Mythal and the elven lore is obvious. I also aree on the about Flemeth wanting to preserve the Old Gods' soul, which is the main reason behind sending Morrigan with the Warden, meaning that there's a connection between the elven lore and past and the Old Gods; Mythal and the Old Gods even share some similarities in regards of soul transferring...and the ritual Flemeth taught Morrigan could've been elven in nature, and it worked because the Old Gods were originally ancient elves or Evanuris. On this point, though, I'm not entirely sure the Old Gods are Evanuris. I know that in terms of numbers they don't match the Forbidden Ones, but the elven lore about Fen'harel mentioned that he trapped the Creators/Evanuris in the skies, while the Forbidden Ones in the depths of the earth. And while this story doesn't have to be completely right (and Solas himself didn't say anything about the Forbidden Ones so far), there's also the fact that in both Tevinter mythology and Andrastianism the Old Gods were underground. We do know for a fact that the Maker didn't create the Veil, since Solas/Fen'harel did that, and given the similaries between the Dalish's myth of what he did, and what the Maker did with the Veil and sending the Old Gods to the depths of the earth, the connection between the two is strong. I also don't think the Evanuris weren't elves. We do know that ancient elves were immortal and probably in general more powerful then the current ones, and Solas is definitely an elf, and his powers were, if not the same of the Evanuris, quite god-like in scope. I guess (and hope) this is all something that'll become clear in the next game.
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Post by nanotm on Jul 22, 2020 10:23:12 GMT
how can that possibly be part of Thedas ????? there is zero cheese anywhere !!!! ...What if the red stuff is a new kind of cheese? well the red stuff looks like a glowy plant its certainly not a crystalline structure which tends away from red lyrium which pushes the theory of being part of Thedas even further away, and whilst some folks might like to call masticated plant matter cheese AFIK non of them are made from glowing red ones.... so whilst its possible to change the shape and colour of the cheese its unlikely that you supposition is accurate
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2020 11:01:47 GMT
well the red stuff looks like a glowy plant its certainly not a crystalline structure which tends away from red lyrium Red lyrium can grow on anything, so it could be infusing plant matter or fungus, thus giving it the glowing red look, whilst the actual red lyrium structure is at microscopic level. The red lyrium in the primitive thaig didn't look crystalline either. Since ordinary lyrium is blood at its basic level, then surely red lyrium is too? Therefore as a liquid it could infuse anything. In this illustration from World of Thedas it also looks more organic in structure.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2020 11:20:53 GMT
Whilst we're considering images, anyone got theories as to who the giant figure in this picture from World of Thedas is meant to be? It goes with a caption that reads: "The Memories tell us that our kingdom once reached far beneath the mountains and that the thaigs were almost beyond counting". So it is definitely meant to be the Deep Roads but actually has absolutely no resemblance to anything we know about dwarves but does vaguely make me think of an eluvian. Someone has mentioned elsewhere how eluvians are very large as though for use by some very tall being and in fact, if you think about it, the Deep Roads are very large to have been constructed for use by beings as short as dwarves. However, if they were constructed to allow beings like this to move around easily, and dragons for that matter, they start to make sense.
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Post by telanadas on Jul 23, 2020 6:19:51 GMT
Whilst we're considering images, anyone got theories as to who the giant figure in this picture from World of Thedas is meant to be? It goes with a caption that reads: "The Memories tell us that our kingdom once reached far beneath the mountains and that the thaigs were almost beyond counting". So it is definitely meant to be the Deep Roads but actually has absolutely no resemblance to anything we know about dwarves but does vaguely make me think of an eluvian. Someone has mentioned elsewhere how eluvians are very large as though for use by some very tall being and in fact, if you think about it, the Deep Roads are very large to have been constructed for use by beings as short as dwarves. However, if they were constructed to allow beings like this to move around easily, and dragons for that matter, they start to make sense. I have wondered a lot about this! According to the codex, the mask is a symbol of Urthemiel. However, I have a lot of doubts on this because this can't be verified AFAIK. The shape of the hat is distinctive and looks a lot like the winged statues in DAO The statue on the left is recognised by Tamlen is Falon'Din. Leading me to believe the one in the centre is Dirthamen with the four arms. I think the being is likely a reference to the ancient elves because of the mask shape. If it is not one of the evanuris, perhaps it's one of their high priests. I think it's interesting that all throughout the series the height of the deep roads is commented on by various party members. The question's always thrown around - why are the deep roads so tall when the dwarves are so short? The Dalish elf origin also has peculiar comments about the architecture of the elven ruins, and there are many comments and questions about whether or not elves once lived underground. What's even more peculiar is the scale of the being compared to the group of humans. I originally thought the size of the eluvians were made to account for dragons (note the eluvian Solas exits scene in Trespasser is massive), but perhaps the evanuris were massive beings in their own right.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2020 8:49:38 GMT
You'll have to remind me, where do we encounter the one with 4 arms? Just because Dirthamen is always twinned with Falon'Din doesn't necessarily mean it is of him because there is another statue that Tamlen identified with him alongside. After all, Tamlen could be wrong about the identification.
Someone has previously compared it with a fear demon. See alongside for comparison and since the Evanuris may originally have been spirits that could account for the similarity. Both Dirthamen and Falon'Din seem shady enough characters that would strike fear into anyone but then so might Mythal. However, the position of the wings makes me think of the Song of Falon'Din and the words "whose wings of death surround him thick as night".
Could the lack of arms in a lot of Mythal's statues be because someone hacked them off? Mind you that statue also has multiple legs/tentacles.
I've drawn attention to the fact that the lyrium idol, that seem likely to be her, has other appendages as well as arms. May be they were always part of her form.
Then again, depicting a figure with multiple arms now makes me think of Ghilan'nain and her experiments.
Also could they in fact be Forgotten Ones? Someone data mined the Trespasser files and found that there were originally other mosaic images than simply Fen'Harel. Headdresses or masks seems to be a feature of all of them. If the writers had originally intended introducing his Forgotten One allies in Trespasser and then decided against it, this could explain the hidden images.
I'm definitely beginning to wonder if the Evanuris were taller beings naturally or deliberately took on that form to look more imposing. Why would anyone make an eluvian this tall if not to accommodate the needs of the beings using it? May be the size depended on who was allowed access, so the shorter ones that we find were only intended for their high priests or other even lesser priesthood but the giant ones were for the gods alone. I'm minded of the fact that in the Dalish legend of Arlathan they recall that it was "a place of knowledge and debate, where the best of the ancient elves would go". Substitute the word "privileged" for "best" and it is quite possible that commoners/slaves were not permitted access or only when accompanying one of the favoured ones. I also suspect that the 7 gates of the Golden City were actually 7 eluvians, one for each of the Evanuris other than Mythal, who controlled the city and probably had one separate from the others for her own use (and possibly that of Fen'Harel). The 7 gates were not to the general area of the city but the inner sanctum, the throne room of Mythal and it is this that is now floating in the Fade.
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Post by sandwichtern on Jul 23, 2020 12:32:57 GMT
Having just visited the DA Keep, here's a drawn picture of the red lyrium idol if people want to compare the different versions: EDIT: spoilered because of the picture size
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Post by telanadas on Jul 23, 2020 12:38:34 GMT
You'll have to remind me, where do we encounter the one with 4 arms? Just because Dirthamen is always twinned with Falon'Din doesn't necessarily mean it is of him because there is another statue that Tamlen identified with him alongside. After all, Tamlen could be wrong about the identification. That's true, although these statues are pretty iconic in that no other statue in this style is found in the game. The four armed statue is encountered several times, memorable ones for me were in the Fade (in front of an eluvian), Wilhelm's basement, and the blood mage's hq in Denerim. The fear demon does look really similar, although I'd say the spiky bits are more feelers than arms. I feel like the four arms is significant too. The weird frog-like statues found at Dumat's altar, cave in the Western Approach (the Thing in the Dark), and the final sanctum in Din'an Hanin gives me strong Falon'Din vibes. Also there is a bust of this statue's head embedded in Solas' vallaslin mural (where a veilfire brazier should be). The envy demon in DAI also has four arms If you subscribe to the theory Nightmare and Envy are the corrupted ravens of Dirthamen even more links can be made between them. Someone data mined the Trespasser files and found that there were originally other mosaic images than simply Fen'Harel. Oh I actually came across this for the first time the other day! (I have not been following this fandom for a long time) I actually blogged about my theory which you can read here. It's a lot of drabble tbh but I really don't think Solas worked alone during the rebellion. Also - this might be nothing- but I came across this post today and I think it's a bit foreboding. Particularly this line: Could explain why Mythal was so invested in saving the old god soul? === Substitute the word "privileged" for "best" and it is quite possible that commoners/slaves were not permitted access or only when accompanying one of the favoured ones. I also suspect that the 7 gates of the Golden City were actually 7 eluvians, one for each of the Evanuris other than Mythal, who controlled the city and probably had one separate from the others for her own use (and possibly that of Fen'Harel). I love this idea - because it makes the "sinner's" treason that much more questionable. If this were the case, they could have possibly breached the city and sabotaged it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2020 14:47:46 GMT
Also - this might be nothing- but I came across this post today and I think it's a bit foreboding. Particularly this line: This is very interesting considering the analysis was made back in 2015 before Trespasser was released or any of the DLC for that matter. But who is the faerie referred to? Where can it be encountered? I'm assuming somewhere in DAI.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jul 23, 2020 15:52:02 GMT
Also - this might be nothing- but I came across this post today and I think it's a bit foreboding. Particularly this line: This is very interesting considering the analysis was made back in 2015 before Trespasser was released or any of the DLC for that matter. But who is the faerie referred to? Where can it be encountered? I'm assuming somewhere in DAI. The Tiniest Cave
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Post by telanadas on Jul 23, 2020 16:15:52 GMT
This is very interesting considering the analysis was made back in 2015 before Trespasser was released or any of the DLC for that matter. ikr!! tbh I only just found out about this quest today (this is why I love this game lol). Which I just did, because I was curious and needed screenshots. The voice in the cave certainly sounds elf-y. The loot box is also gilded with a leafless tree on it. The description seems to pass off the loot as a dwarven creation for a duel though. "So I said to the fellow, 'You want a what?' And it turns out I heard him right the first time. A helmet of flowers, he said, with a vein of lyrium running through it to keep them flowers alive. I thought for sure this had to be some elven thing, something for frolicking in the woods, but no. It's for a duel, he said. Bloody Orlesians. Dwarven pride demanded I make the damned thing effective, at least."
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2020 17:39:24 GMT
The description seems to pass off the loot as a dwarven creation for a duel though. Well the Orlesian had to have got the idea from somewhere. Who would normally think of making a helmet of flowers with lyrium running through to keep them alive? Even the crafter thought it seemed an elvish idea at first. I've never even found the little cave, let alone got the flower helmet. You never know with the writers but they do like to toss these odd references in, often in obscure places or in such a way you might easily miss it. Like the Sandal prophesy. Once Trespasser came along then those phrases start to make sense.
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Post by Muninn on Jul 31, 2020 20:49:21 GMT
Referring to the statues depicting the appearance of the Elven Gods/Old Gods: One of the things I liked when I first encountered the Elven lore during my first contact with DAO (Dalish Elf Origin), apart from the content itself, was the appearance of the Elven gods depicted on some statues, who did not resemble typical ancient elves, only mysterious beings, having more in common with animals, dragons or ancient demons, bringing to mind an unexplored, unpredictable and dangerous forces of nature. These sculptures are precisely the dragon-like 'masks' found in the Dalish camps, where two of them were assigned respectively to Elgar'nan and June, while three others could be found in the game files, and an image of some of them was also shown in the end credits. I think these masks can also be related to the Archdemons/Old Gods, althrough I think that as previously mentioned, the Archdemons/Old Gods are 'parts' of the Evanuris' souls trapped in dragons' forms on the other side of the Veil, or The Forgotten Ones, referring to the myth. However, I prefer to think that The Forgotten Ones were (in part) allies to Fen'Harel and, in fact, they can be represented by the murals that were mentioned earlier. Elgar'nan: June: The other three: Image from the end credits: Additionally, another of the statues was depicted in The Crossroads during Trespasser, and possibly related to Mythal (it's sun-like 'crown' is also shown as fourth in the murals that were mentioned earlier):
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