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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2020 8:09:52 GMT
So its been a while since I have seen any DA related from our lady of the internet magic fan theories...but this is certainly an interesting take on a lot of this stuff. I was tuning in and out of it admittedly but some of her conclusions were heckle raising and she does seem to be pointing to that so far BioWare has a unification of marketing.
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Post by sandwichtern on Jun 29, 2020 14:01:36 GMT
It's quite possible that I'm reaching, but I wonder if this picture could be taken as a confirmation that Romanian architectural influences will be present in buildings we see in DA4. (There was a tweet a few years back about a Bioware dev's work trip to Romania and people speculated at that time that he might have also used the trip to seek inspiration for the next game.) The thing that originally puzzled me about this picture was that the building (some kind of abbey, perhaps?) in it seemed to not have any windows. You could see moonlight peeking through the exposed rafters, but the only light reaching the floor came from the doorways. I found a SlideShare about medieval Romanian architecture, and interestingly it featured churches which also did not have "sidewindows" or, if they did, those windows were small. For example, here is a picture of an old church in Strei village with no windows in the main structure. Notice also how in the second picture the only real difference between the Strei church and the building in the Bioware artwork is that the Strei church has a tower. Emboldened by this discovery I decided to also look up the Densuș Church, the oldest stone church in Romania, and found its history echoed some themes which were present in DA:I (the erasing of history, the tampered and chipped mosaics studied by the mason Gatsi, Skyhold's tiles dating back to different periods of time and the Skyhold itself being inhabited by different groups of people).
Here's a partial transcript of the text from the spoilered video above about Densuş: - On the site of the present day church, there was Dacian temple dedicated to Zamolxis (a Thracian god with some questionable practises of worship according to Herodotos) upon which the conquering Romans built a temple dedicated to the god Mars.
- The second century Roman temple used some materials from the Dacians's capital.
- Current standing walls are from the 4th and 7th century with additions made in the 13th century. The Dacian turned Roman temple became a Christian church.
- The altar of all Christian churches points towards east but the altar of the Densuş church is towards south
- Many of the 15th century mural paintings inside the church were destroyed by Reformists during Middle Ages.
- Experts say the Densuş church could be a copy of San Nicoana church of which only some ruins are found nowadays.
Based on everything above I wonder if DA4 will also touch upon themes of censoring parts of history someone thought uncomfortable or dangerous, and reappropriation. Finding vestiges of older architectural styles under newer ones will certainly be something one encounters in Tevinter. I also predict ancient (possibly tampered) frescoes in our future and, if anything, ancient Romanian churches have a wealth of those.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 5, 2020 23:27:44 GMT
I would LOVE this. I just don't know if I trust the current leadership to do it. Patrick Weekes is a good writer just in terms of character-writing and story wholeness. But he has that saccharine approach to things. I doubt he could take on a divisive topic and actually deal with it honestly and not in some socially favorable way to what "People want to hear." There shouldn't be total moral greyness in BioWare games, but I hope he would be able to take on the idea of Tevinter censoring things without fully characterizing it as "They only censored the things WE love and therefore they were EVIIILLL"
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2020 0:15:53 GMT
I would LOVE this. I just don't know if I trust the current leadership to do it. Patrick Weekes is a good writer just in terms of character-writing and story wholeness. But he has that saccharine approach to things. I doubt he could take on a divisive topic and actually deal with it honestly and not in some socially favorable way to what "People want to hear." There shouldn't be total moral greyness in BioWare games, but I hope he would be able to take on the idea of Tevinter censoring things without fully characterizing it as "They only censored the things WE love and therefore they were EVIIILLL" Erm... that was already in Inquisition . Quite a bit of it in in fact, with us either finding many lost (and suppressed) pieces of history or tales or dealing with truth either censored or bent out of shape by the Chantry, etc. The treatment of Shartan, Tyrdda Bright-Axe being in fact a mage, the wiping of either mages or elvhen contributions to shape of Thedas... heck, the main quest of Jaws Of Hakkon was literally all about that.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 6, 2020 0:53:05 GMT
I would LOVE this. I just don't know if I trust the current leadership to do it. Patrick Weekes is a good writer just in terms of character-writing and story wholeness. But he has that saccharine approach to things. I doubt he could take on a divisive topic and actually deal with it honestly and not in some socially favorable way to what "People want to hear." There shouldn't be total moral greyness in BioWare games, but I hope he would be able to take on the idea of Tevinter censoring things without fully characterizing it as "They only censored the things WE love and therefore they were EVIIILLL" Erm... that was already in Inquisition . Quite a bit of it in in fact, with us either finding many lost (and of suppressed) pieces of history or tales or dealing with truth wither censored or bent out of shape by the Chantry, etc. The treatment of Shartan, Tyrdda Bright-Axe being in fact a mage, the wiping of either mages or elvhen contributions to shape of Thedas... heck, the main quest of Jaws Of Hakkon was literally all about that. also descent, the Shaperate, and the Dwarves.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2020 1:15:32 GMT
Erm... that was already in Inquisition . Quite a bit of it in in fact, with us either finding many lost (and of suppressed) pieces of history or tales or dealing with truth wither censored or bent out of shape by the Chantry, etc. The treatment of Shartan, Tyrdda Bright-Axe being in fact a mage, the wiping of either mages or elvhen contributions to shape of Thedas... heck, the main quest of Jaws Of Hakkon was literally all about that. also descent, the Shaperate, and the Dwarves. Yea, I mean this theme is basically all over Inquisition, even if not necessarily 'in your face' at all times. Strange to me that some seem to have missed it
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Post by colfoley on Jul 6, 2020 1:18:42 GMT
also descent, the Shaperate, and the Dwarves. Yea, I mean this theme is basically all over Inquisition, even if not necessarily 'in your face' at all times. Strange to me some seem to have missed it hell I'll take it one step further this theme has always been in DA going back to the Elf/ Werewolf questline and The Temple of Sacred Ashes.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2020 1:29:01 GMT
Yea, I mean this theme is basically all over Inquisition, even if not necessarily 'in your face' at all times. Strange to me some seem to have missed it hell I'll take it one step further this theme has always been in DA going back to the Elf/ Werewolf questline and The Temple of Sacred Ashes. It's not just that, but the whole lore being intentionally written from biased in-world perspective - naturally, this isn't JUST about censorship, appropriation, editing out what's uncomfortable etc., but these elements are consistently there from the start and are both part of the worldbuilding and stuff that makes audience ponder about things. In Inquisition IMO we are delving deeper into that very theme and I don't see how we are not going to delve even further, especially because we seem to be heading into either events or reveals that may wholly overturn what people (in-world and the audience) think they know about Thedas, how things are there or how they went.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 6, 2020 1:32:14 GMT
hell I'll take it one step further this theme has always been in DA going back to the Elf/ Werewolf questline and The Temple of Sacred Ashes. I'ts not just that, but the whole of lore being intentionally written from biased in-world perspective - naturally, this isn't JUST about censorship, appropriation, editing out what's uncomfortable etc., but this element is consistently there from the start and is both part of the worldbuilding and stuff that makes audience ponder about things. In Inquisition IMO we are delving deeper into that very theme and I don't see how we are not going to delve even further, especially because we seem to be heading into either events or reveals that may wholly overturn what people (in-world and the audience) think they know about Thedas, how things are there or how they went. I mean we are heading to the earliest human nation on the continent. That's bound to come with a lot of reveals.
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Post by TabithaTH on Jul 7, 2020 11:33:49 GMT
I'ts not just that, but the whole of lore being intentionally written from biased in-world perspective - naturally, this isn't JUST about censorship, appropriation, editing out what's uncomfortable etc., but this element is consistently there from the start and is both part of the worldbuilding and stuff that makes audience ponder about things. In Inquisition IMO we are delving deeper into that very theme and I don't see how we are not going to delve even further, especially because we seem to be heading into either events or reveals that may wholly overturn what people (in-world and the audience) think they know about Thedas, how things are there or how they went. I mean we are heading to the earliest human nation on the continent. That's bound to come with a lot of reveals. Hopefully not all of those reveals are 'Because Ancient Elves did it'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 7, 2020 12:09:45 GMT
Yea, I mean this theme is basically all over Inquisition, even if not necessarily 'in your face' at all times. Strange to me that some seem to have missed it I agree there is a lot of this, although the in-game characters won't always admit to it. Gatsi says how some of the mosaics have been altered, he assumes to make them more acceptable to the person who ordered it. In Tevinter Nights there is a part in Genitivi Dies in the End, where he is reading the history in the elven library and is heartbroken to discover how much it contradicts what he has written in the past about seeing the hand of the Maker in everything. So there is definitely going to be more of this going forward.
PW has also tweeted before how Tevinter was literally built over elven ruins and many pictures and statues re-purposed to make it look like their ancestors were the ones depicted. So the Chantry weren't the first ones to lop off the ears of elven portraits because they were no longer politically and culturally acceptable. For all we know, those pictures of figures holding foci in the Tevinter archives, that Dorian believes were depicting human Dreamers, may not have been of the Tevinter founders at all but just adopted by them to glorify the ancestors of the Altus.
Dorian also admits that the Tevinter version of the origins of the Blight is now substantially different to the southern Chantry one, although that could be a valid interpretation because they weren't responsible. Even Corypheus admits he only discovered the Darkness in the Black City, so someone else was responsible for its creation.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 7, 2020 12:22:08 GMT
Yea, I mean this theme is basically all over Inquisition, even if not necessarily 'in your face' at all times. Strange to me that some seem to have missed it I agree there is a lot of this, although the in-game characters won't always admit to it. Gatsi says how some of the mosaics have been altered, he assumes to make them more acceptable to the person who ordered it. In Tevinter Nights there is a part in Genitivi Dies in the End, where he is reading the history in the elven library and is heartbroken to discover how much it contradicts what he has written in the past about seeing the hand of the Maker in everything. So there is definitely going to be more of this going forward. PW has also tweeted before how Tevinter was literally built over elven ruins and many pictures and statues re-purposed to make it look like their ancestors were the ones depicted. So the Chantry weren't the first ones to lop off the ears of elven portraits because they were no longer politically and culturally acceptable. For all we know, those pictures of figures holding foci in the Tevinter archives, that Dorian believes were depicting human Dreamers, may not have been of the Tevinter founders at all but just adopted by them to glorify the ancestors of the Altus.
Dorian also admits that the Tevinter version of the origins of the Blight is now substantially different to the southern Chantry one, although that could be a valid interpretation because they weren't responsible. Even Corypheus admits he only discovered the Darkness in the Black City, so someone else was responsible for its creation. Nowhere I said that the Chantry was the first or the only one - merely that the theme or occurrences of censorship or tampering with history has already been pretty abundantly present in the franchise, regardless who did it. I also said that I don't expect this to stop - and in fact we may see even more of this in the future. And, so far, all things are pointing to us going to Tevinter in the next game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 7, 2020 16:56:26 GMT
I also said that I don't expect this to stop - and in fact we may see even more of this in the future. And I was agreeing with you. Nor did I say the Chantry were the only people to alter history. I was just referring to the fact that where pictures depicting Shartan were not totally destroyed, they altered his ears, just as PW said Tevinter did to elven pictures and statues. I have to say, though, that I don't think anyone else altered prominent elven pictures as they had no reason to because the elven pictures and statues were in ruins in out of the way places like the Brecilian Forest. I have to admit that I do find it weird that there were all those primitive murals out in the open surrounding the Exalted Plains and the Orlesians had just left them there. Also, why Shartan was the most important figure depicted in the Redcliff Chantry because he was the figure directly in front of you as you enter and walk up the aisle. Bearing in mind that Orlais occupied Ferelden for some 55 years it is even more surprising that window with Shartan survived considering you can't miss seeing him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 7, 2020 17:18:42 GMT
Hopefully not all of those reveals are 'Because Ancient Elves did it'. I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Still the Neromenians had to have come from somewhere because even Dalish legends mention them coming over the sea and their own legends would appear to confirm they were a sea-faring people. So since the Executors are also from across the sea and somewhat mysterious, there is a chance that there was a common ancestor to these people and that could account for some aspects of Tevinter culture. I do wonder where their reverence for dragons came from. Did they arrive when the dragons still ruled the skies? Is that why they adopted them as gods? I'm still puzzled by the Old Gods. If they were around physically for the Neromenians to see, who imprisoned them? If it was Solas then the Neromenians were around before the fall of the elven empire. This would seem to be confirmed by Dalish legends. Is it possible that, like the other races, the humans suffered some sort of amnesia about what happened pre-Veil and that is why they seem to have no recollection of a time without the Veil. Were they not aware of it because at that time they had no magic of their own? There is another belief recorded that states they thought their heroes were reborn as dragons. That would fit with the religious beliefs of the Avvar further south and even the cultists at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, so not borrowed from the elves. So since the Avvar regard all spirits as gods, may be the Neromenians did too and then Thalsian was contacted through the Fade by a particularly helpful one, so that is how Dumat became his patron god. Anyway I am looking forward to more ancient human history being revealed but I suspect that elves are going to be involved in it somewhere.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 7, 2020 23:13:44 GMT
I also said that I don't expect this to stop - and in fact we may see even more of this in the future. And I was agreeing with you. Nor did I say the Chantry were the only people to alter history. I was just referring to the fact that where pictures depicting Shartan were not totally destroyed, they altered his ears, just as PW said Tevinter did to elven pictures and statues. I have to say, though, that I don't think anyone else altered prominent elven pictures as they had no reason to because the elven pictures and statues were in ruins in out of the way places like the Brecilian Forest. I have to admit that I do find it weird that there were all those primitive murals out in the open surrounding the Exalted Plains and the Orlesians had just left them there. Also, why Shartan was the most important figure depicted in the Redcliff Chantry because he was the figure directly in front of you as you enter and walk up the aisle. Bearing in mind that Orlais occupied Ferelden for some 55 years it is even more surprising that window with Shartan survived considering you can't miss seeing him. The reason could be as prosaic as cost - it's expensive to create new stained glass even in this day and age and it would be even more expensive in Thedas. It may also be that Redcliffe is also a bit more liberal than other places in Ferelden and folks may not care as much to point out that the dude is actually an elf.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 8, 2020 0:26:54 GMT
And I was agreeing with you. Nor did I say the Chantry were the only people to alter history. I was just referring to the fact that where pictures depicting Shartan were not totally destroyed, they altered his ears, just as PW said Tevinter did to elven pictures and statues. I have to say, though, that I don't think anyone else altered prominent elven pictures as they had no reason to because the elven pictures and statues were in ruins in out of the way places like the Brecilian Forest. I have to admit that I do find it weird that there were all those primitive murals out in the open surrounding the Exalted Plains and the Orlesians had just left them there. Also, why Shartan was the most important figure depicted in the Redcliff Chantry because he was the figure directly in front of you as you enter and walk up the aisle. Bearing in mind that Orlais occupied Ferelden for some 55 years it is even more surprising that window with Shartan survived considering you can't miss seeing him. The reason could be as prosaic as cost - it's expensive to create a new stained glass even in this day and age and it would be even more expensive in Thedas. It may also be that Redcliffe is also a bit more liberal than other places in Ferelden and folks may not care as much to point out that the dude is actually an elf. It’s possible the purge of Shartan’s imagery after the fall of the Dales was only ever stringent in Orlesian lands, which had actually experienced the war with the elves. Ferelden didn’t enter the Chantry’s sway until a few centuries later. So if the Redcliffe Chantry is that old, the Fereldens probably just didn’t feel the need to change their structures. If not, then maybe the Chantry’s policy on Shartan’s imagery was never enforced beyond Orlais.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2020 7:54:47 GMT
So if the Redcliffe Chantry is that old, the Fereldens probably just didn’t feel the need to change their structures
Which still begs the question, why was Shartan's image given such prominence in the Redcliff Chantry? The Chantry buildings are clearly meant to be like real life churches. IRL the image directly in front of you as you walk up the aisle is either one of Jesus or the saint to whom the church is dedicated. So the most important image should have been that of Andraste. She is in the panel but in support of the main image of Shartan. That would suggest that the building was originally dedicated to the memory of Shartan and thus the people of Ferelden acknowledged his importance in the story of Andraste, may be even having a similar oral tradition to that of the Dalish elves, from whom Divine Jusinia I got the Canticle of Shartan.
In the Canticle of Shartan, Andraste seems to acknowledge Shartan as her equivalent among the elves as a liberator of his people. She even gives him the commission with the gift of her mother's sword: "Take this, my champion, and free our people forever." So effectively she is passing the leadership to him of the crusade to free the slaves. Presumably this is why he is holding a key in the image because he is the "Liberator". This is the name given to the person in the Canticle of Apotheosis who tried to rescue Andraste and died doing so along with "a hundred of his people". I assume this was left in the Chant when the Canticle of Shartan was removed because there was no mention of the race of the liberator and, without the Canticle of Shartan, most would not remember it was him. However, it would seem the people of Ferelden did. Could that be why the Dalish originally found sanctuary in Ferelden? I know our storyteller speaks of a conflict immediately on entering the country but these may have been Avvar rather than Alamarri.
I notice that the Canticle of Apotheosis is attributed to the original Justinia, the former slave and friend of Andraste, who is thought to have fled with Havard and her ashes, founding the cult that was established at Haven. So if the Redcliff Chantry building dated to around that time, it would account for the prominence given to the Liberator. I'm not sure about the use of stained glass in a building that old though, so may be the image in the stained glass was based off an earlier painted one.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 8, 2020 8:28:24 GMT
So if the Redcliffe Chantry is that old, the Fereldens probably just didn’t feel the need to change their structures
Which still begs the question, why was Shartan's image given such prominence in the Redcliff Chantry? The Chantry buildings are clearly meant to be like real life churches. IRL the image directly in front of you as you walk up the aisle is either one of Jesus or the saint to whom the church is dedicated. So the most important image should have been that of Andraste. She is in the panel but in support of the main image of Shartan. That would suggest that the building was originally dedicated to the memory of Shartan and thus the people of Ferelden acknowledged his importance in the story of Andraste, may be even having a similar oral tradition to that of the Dalish elves, from whom Divine Jusinia I got the Canticle of Shartan.
In the Canticle of Shartan, Andraste seems to acknowledge Shartan as her equivalent among the elves as a liberator of his people. She even gives him the commission with the gift of her mother's sword: "Take this, my champion, and free our people forever." So effectively she is passing the leadership to him of the crusade to free the slaves. Presumably this is why he is holding a key in the image because he is the "Liberator". This is the name given to the person in the Canticle of Apotheosis who tried to rescue Andraste and died doing so along with "a hundred of his people". I assume this was left in the Chant when the Canticle of Shartan was removed because there was no mention of the race of the liberator and, without the Canticle of Shartan, most would not remember it was him. However, it would seem the people of Ferelden did. Could that be why the Dalish originally found sanctuary in Ferelden? I know our storyteller speaks of a conflict immediately on entering the country but these may have been Avvar rather than Alamarri.
I notice that the Canticle of Apotheosis is attributed to the original Justinia, the former slave and friend of Andraste, who is thought to have fled with Havard and her ashes, founding the cult that was established at Haven. So if the Redcliff Chantry building dated to around that time, it would account for the prominence given to the Liberator. I'm not sure about the use of stained glass in a building that old though, so may be the image in the stained glass was based off an earlier painted one. If this theory bares out it actually gives more reason for Mafarareth to be pissed. Imagine being replaced by the Maker and en Elf. (Or if Tevinter is right just an Elf)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2020 10:13:18 GMT
If this theory bares out it actually gives more reason for Mafarareth to be pissed. Imagine being replaced by the Maker and en Elf. (Or if Tevinter is right just an Elf) The idea that he was jealous of the Maker or anyone else was just Chantry rhetoric. Historians admit that the more likely explanation is that he was a good general and tactician who realised that Andraste was overstretching their capabilities. It is possible that he started to object to continuing the campaign further north before the Battle of Valarian Fields. The alternative history of Andraste in WoT2 suggests that she was single mindedly pushing ahead with her crusade without giving due attention to consolidating the gains they had already made, so Tevinter had already reversed some of their earlier victories by re-occupying sites they had conquered. This would explain why Andraste saw Shartan as someone equally committed to freeing all the slaves, rather than simply making and consolidating military conquests. Then when Shartan and his elves averted a disaster at the Valarian fields, may be she realised that he would be the best one to rely on to continue her cause if anything happened to her. There is an interesting aspect to the words of her mother in the Gauntlet that seem to suggest she foresaw her daughter would one day be betrayed and die young. If Andraste knew of this, then may be she was expecting betrayal. How about this for a novel idea? May be Maferath wasn't among the host of Andraste that was surrounded and cut off in the Battle of Valarian Fields, so he effectively did a Loghain on her in the hope that she would be killed but Shartan upset his plans. Andraste suspected this was the case and that is why she gave Shartan her mother's sword, passing the torch to him but obviously she couldn't outright denounced Maferath because many of the barbarians were loyal to him. In any case, perhaps she embraced her destiny as foreseen by her mother, believing that the Maker would save her. There is a curious passage attributed to her in Andraste 7: Let the blade pass through the flesh, Let my blood touch the ground, Let my cries touch their hearts. Let mine be the last sacrifice. If these were truly her words then it would seem she wanted to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Of course Tevinter claim Andraste was a mage and apparently violent and painful sacrifice is the essential element of the most powerful blood magic. Now wouldn't that be ironic, if Andraste was really a blood mage and the intent of her mind controlling spell was to influence Hessarian to adopt the Maker and free the slaves.
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Post by Ieldra on Jul 8, 2020 10:33:35 GMT
I do wonder where their reverence for dragons came from. Did they arrive when the dragons still ruled the skies? Is that why they adopted them as gods? I'm still puzzled by the Old Gods. If they were around physically for the Neromenians to see, who imprisoned them? If it was Solas then the Neromenians were around before the fall of the elven empire. This would seem to be confirmed by Dalish legends. Is it possible that, like the other races, the humans suffered some sort of amnesia about what happened pre-Veil and that is why they seem to have no recollection of a time without the Veil. Were they not aware of it because at that time they had no magic of their own? There is another belief recorded that states they thought their heroes were reborn as dragons. That would fit with the religious beliefs of the Avvar further south and even the cultists at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, so not borrowed from the elves. So since the Avvar regard all spirits as gods, may be the Neromenians did too and then Thalsian was contacted through the Fade by a particularly helpful one, so that is how Dumat became his patron god. Anyway I am looking forward to more ancient human history being revealed but I suspect that elves are going to be involved in it somewhere. I am still convinced that the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same. The Archdemons are remnants of the Old Gods, specifically those aspects of the Evanuris that remained on this side of the Veil after Solas' sundering of reality - which caused what is referred to elsewhere as their imprisonment. The other aspects continue to exist in the Black City, and constitute the heart of the Blight phenomenon. The Blight retains enough connection to create the darkspawn, which constitutes an attempt to regain a foothold on this side of the Veil, and consequently, if those meet the aforementioned remnants there is a sort of reconnection and in-part re-empowerment, which results in a new Blight event.
So, that would really mean "The Ancient Elves did it" I guess
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Post by colfoley on Jul 8, 2020 10:48:34 GMT
If this theory bares out it actually gives more reason for Mafarareth to be pissed. Imagine being replaced by the Maker and en Elf. (Or if Tevinter is right just an Elf) The idea that he was jealous of the Maker or anyone else was just Chantry rhetoric. Historians admit that the more likely explanation is that he was a good general and tactician who realised that Andraste was overstretching their capabilities. It is possible that he started to object to continuing the campaign further north before the Battle of Valarian Fields. The alternative history of Andraste in WoT2 suggests that she was single mindedly pushing ahead with her crusade without giving due attention to consolidating the gains they had already made, so Tevinter had already reversed some of their earlier victories by re-occupying sites they had conquered. This would explain why Andraste saw Shartan as someone equally committed to freeing all the slaves, rather than simply making and consolidating military conquests. Then when Shartan and his elves averted a disaster at the Valarian fields, may be she realised that he would be the best one to rely on to continue her cause if anything happened to her. There is an interesting aspect to the words of her mother in the Gauntlet that seem to suggest she foresaw her daughter would one day be betrayed and die young. If Andraste knew of this, then may be she was expecting betrayal. How about this for a novel idea? May be Maferath wasn't among the host of Andraste that was surrounded and cut off in the Battle of Valarian Fields, so he effectively did a Loghain on her in the hope that she would be killed but Shartan upset his plans. Andraste suspected this was the case and that is why she gave Shartan her mother's sword, passing the torch to him but obviously she couldn't outright denounced Maferath because many of the barbarians were loyal to him. In any case, perhaps she embraced her destiny as foreseen by her mother, believing that the Maker would save her. There is a curious passage attributed to her in Andraste 7: Let the blade pass through the flesh, Let my blood touch the ground, Let my cries touch their hearts. Let mine be the last sacrifice. If these were truly her words then it would seem she wanted to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Of course Tevinter claim Andraste was a mage and apparently violent and painful sacrifice is the essential element of the most powerful blood magic. Now wouldn't that be ironic, if Andraste was really a blood mage and the intent of her mind controlling spell was to influence Hessarian to adopt the Maker and free the slaves. first off. Holy crap lol. That would be interesting. Second of all. I've been musing I really need to pick up the WoT. I hope they do a V3 for DA4.
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mistberry
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Post by telanadas on Jul 8, 2020 12:26:57 GMT
The Canticle of Maferath (which is also not acknowledged by the Chant) states Maferath's betrayal was actually "Maker blessed", and alludes to the idea Andraste wanted to "return" to the Maker's side. Of course, it's source and origin is questionable, however it's always stood out to me because to find all the verses you need to find all of Maferath's Monuments...which are all also associated with the elven gods in DAO.
Another thing that has always bugged me are the references to "Maferath" in the deep roads, specifically the Dead Trenches. Like, why are human statues all the way down there in the first place, and why were they refashioned with wings and a skull? I don't even know how to explain it, it almost seems like the darkspawn worshipped him because many of the statues seem to form part of a shrine. There's also been a lot of allusion to rebirth and cleansing through fire in the series (especially through the heart), and I wonder how that alludes back to Andraste's own death and possibly Solas' future intentions as well (considering all the fire in the teaser, the molten "heart", and how he fears "dying alone").
"Whatsoever passes through the fire Is not lost, but made eternal;"
"Remember the fire. You must pass Through it alone to be forged anew."
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2020 18:24:09 GMT
I am still convinced that the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same. The Archdemons are remnants of the Old Gods, specifically those aspects of the Evanuris that remained on this side of the Veil after Solas' sundering of reality - which caused what is referred to elsewhere as their imprisonment. I go back and forth on this. I think the Old Gods are connected with the elves but I do wonder if they are the Forgotten Ones rather than the Creators. I think Evanuris simply means "Leaders", so it is possible the term encompasses more than just the gods known as the Creators by the Dalish. Whilst there have only been 3 named Forgotten Ones so far that doesn't mean there might not have been more. We know Gelduran objected to the Creators' claim to godhood through some suggestion of being inherently superior to others, which would make sense if he was originally a leader the same as them, but he just seems to feel that anyone is entitled to be regarded as a god as a result of their deeds. I don't believe the Dalish were wrong about the war between the two factions just before Fen'Harel shut them away. He was encouraging rebellion against the false gods, which Gelduran and his pals probably supported. Hence the story that they saw him as one of their own. However, he realised their motives were different to his own so was quite prepared to sacrifice them in order to achieve his aims. Let's face it he would probably have done the same even if they were paragons of virtue because he admits to being that ruthless. It is also entirely possible that he needed them to successfully entrap the Creators, with one Forgotten One supplying enough power for one Creator. Except his plan involved them being entrapped too. Or may be he simply did want to put both sides out of the way and it was the war between these two sides that he felt was threatening the future of the world. The Dalish story has him telling the Forgotten Ones to return to the Abyss whilst he negotiates a truce (or in Merrill's story to await his directions of where to find the ultimate weapon). That would fit with the Old Gods being imprisoned in the Deep Roads. It is also possible that during the war they took the form of dragons as an act of defiance, as that form had been forbidden to anyone but the Creators, and also out of practicality because they were stronger that way. If my theory above is correct and the Neromenians arrived before the Veil, then it could well be they started to worship the Old Gods in dragon form whilst they were still above ground, which is why they continued to "speak" to their worshipers after their imprisonment through their dreams. Then everything that followed was with the intent of eventually empowering the human mages into breaking into the Eternal City as the means of destroying the seal on their prison. Whether the Old Gods are connected with the Creators or the Forgotten Ones, I think it is a fairly safe bet that they are connected with the ancient elves or at the very least the "ancient beings" that ruled over them. Remember Flemeth never says that Mythal was the wisp of an ancient elf but an ancient being who seemed constantly portrayed by her worshipers as a being with wings and a face without recognisable features.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 9, 2020 7:34:51 GMT
I am still convinced that the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same. Another aspect that makes me wonder if the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones is the possibility they may still have worshippers among the elves, namely those strange elves over in the Tirashan. It was stated when they go into battle they are calling on gods which the soldier had never heard of before and not for aid but rather as though offering up their enemies as a sacrifice. We know the Old Gods taught blood magic to the humans and sacrifice would seem to have been an integral part of offering their aid, so could these elves have been worshipping them as well but by different names? I realise this could equally be true of the Creator gods. Andruil and Ghilan'nain seem dodgy enough that they could have taught blood magic to their followers and demanded sacrifice as part of their worship but the soldier quoted was familiar with the Dalish and the names of the gods they worship and he was adamant he had never heard of these. Also there were known to be worshippers of the Forgotten Ones at the time of the Dales but the other elves shunned them and their priests were persecuted and presumably driven out of the area. So they could have wound up in the Tirashan or alternatively these elves are a separate enclave of ancient elves. The Dalish also maintain the worshippers of the Forgotten Ones in their time had forsaken their people in return for a twisted and terrible strength. Could that have been the power granted by uniquely blood magic spells or something else, red lyrium for example? The elves in the Tirashan did have blood red vallaslin.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 10, 2020 17:10:17 GMT
I am still convinced that the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same. There's a point in the game where Solas straight-up says, "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."Solas doesn't like to lie, and it's easy to tell when he's obfuscating something, and with such a direct statement on the matter, I'm inclined to believe him.
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