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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 20, 2020 15:42:52 GMT
A person in trauma isn't thinking right. He learns better and he tells the Inquisitor he joined because he wanted to help, and there are countless others who thought the same. Thrask, Greigor and so on. Thus i think 'not all templars' was a fair comment for characters to make in game.
I chose Cullen because he was the most well known example, I don't particularly like or dislike him. I just think he actually did become and remain a Templar because he wanted to help Mages and the rest of the population of Thedas. I'd probably want to kill the people who killed my friends too, were i in his situation.
Hard to argue that anything Cullen did in his decade of service at Kirkwall was to "help" mages. From the outside, maybe not. He was still not thinking right at the time, but Templars often say that keeping the mages in the circle is to protect them from ordinary people. But obviously their focus is to protect the ordinary folk from the 'dangers of magic'. Cullen was blinded by the blood mages but, despite his jadedness, he still stood against Meredith when she went too far in his opinion. If he truly believed that keeping mages in the circle was the safest they could be, and it was his duty to protect the mages from themselves and blood mages, i can say that, at the very least, he felt he was protecting the mages. Whether his actual actions helped or not doesn't really matter when arguing that he at least wanted to help the mages. He didn't, obviously, but he wanted to help. This is kind of an argument of intentions vs actions. I can believe he wanted to help them, but his actions had the opposite effect.
I always found that being a Templar took some leaps of logic in order to see what they do as ever protecting mages, but that's what they claim to do. While i personally don't agree with their conclusion, i can understand how they came to it.
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Post by dagless on Jun 20, 2020 15:45:23 GMT
Every single time this discussion pops up, it's clear that "morally grey" doesn't actually MEAN anything. People apply it inconsistently and hypocritically. When you say something is "morally grey", all you're really saying is that you personally liked it. It belongs with "dark" and "mature" in the box of "Meaningless Descriptors for Game Snobs". So the definition of “morally grey” is a bit of a grey area? Sounds about right then. |
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 20, 2020 15:51:27 GMT
I don't think they should imply that slavery is great idea. However portrayal should not be as some absolute evil. It's a system so there should be representation of those that look after their slaves as there is of blood magic torturers. Equally we can see in dragon age that it is just as possible for a ferelden lord's son to go around raping his local elves with impugnity , so its hardly as if serfdom is a perfect utopia across the lands. And that's before you get into the whole notion of conveying immortal elvendemi-gods control over their servants as simply slavery. Um... I think BioWare, and anyone else who attempted it, for that matter, would have an extremely hard time arguing that slavery is not an "absolute evil". It doesn't really matter if someone treats their slaves "well" (however we define that). Modern society, by an overwhelming majority, believes that it is wrong to enslave people in the first place, regardless of how they are treated. Freedom is considered a basic entitlement. And frankly, as crimes go, I dare say that slavery is one of the few crimes that it is impossible to justify or sympathise with under any circumstance. A thief can be sympathetic, if they stole essential food or medicine that they needed to survive. A murderer can be sympathetic, if the person they killed was themselves an awful person. I've even seen stories that successfully make kidnappers sympathetic, but the kidnapping never lasts for an extended period. I've yet to see any piece of media where a character "needed" to have slaves. Slavery is not sympathetic, and even if the character is not an "abusive" owner (I would argue that restricting a person's freedom is inherently abusive), there's absolutely no justification for why anyone should have slaves. I highly doubt that BioWare will ever be able to create any sort of extenuating circumstance, however fanciful, where it could be argued that enslaving other people is a genuine necessity. They already gave it their best shot in DA:O. It's not an abolsute when many of the societal alternatives on display are pretty abhorrent too. There's no enlightened modern world in Dragon Age. Being a serf in Ferelden isn't some wonderful life of freedom, nor being part of the Qun. Tevinter is a society where slavery is embedded in the caste structure. If they are going to show Tevinter life then they will need to showcase both the abusive element and the everyday hundrum element where there will be people operating with more decently within the societal structure that is in place. People who themselves are highly boxed in by the caste structure in terms of social movement.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 20, 2020 16:06:39 GMT
Thank goodness. Series like that handled grey morality terribly, since it just ended up where you hated everybody and rooted for no one. Problem is, Dragon Age handles grey morality terribly too.
Thing is, one needs to "measure our morality" against the Moral Giver (God). Otherwise, we have individual / group / tribal morality, which is not only opinionated but different from each other..
There are degrees of morality which is dependent on the "infraction'. Murder is considered an "absolute infraction". But telling your child about the tooth fairy may be viewed as amusing and a "little white lie" but in the strict sense is a violation of "thou shall tell no lies". Still, the latter belongs to the colour grey and not black (absolute)
Best way to handle this, imo, is via the reaction of your NPCs. They can support you, criticize you, refuse to go with you in certain missions or eventually leave you. Regardless, the Protagonist is free to forge her own path.
Better still, remove all morality calculations and let the gamer play the style that suit them.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 20, 2020 16:23:32 GMT
Thing is, one needs to "measure our morality" against the Moral Giver (God). Otherwise, we have individual / group / tribal morality, which is not only opinionated but different from each other.. Ugh, morality is always an individual thing. If you want to set up your "god" as moral giver, then you are talking about Christian morality apparently. That is group mentality.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 20, 2020 16:25:13 GMT
It's not an abolsute when many of the societal alternatives on display are pretty abhorrent too. There's no enlightened modern world in Dragon Age. Being a serf in Ferelden isn't some wonderful life of freedom, nor being part of the Qun. Actually most Fereldens are freeholders who can swear allegiance to any Bann they choose. Orlais has serfs though, I believe it’s implied. |
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wright1978
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Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 20, 2020 16:40:46 GMT
It's not an abolsute when many of the societal alternatives on display are pretty abhorrent too. There's no enlightened modern world in Dragon Age. Being a serf in Ferelden isn't some wonderful life of freedom, nor being part of the Qun. Actually most Fereldens are freeholders who can swear allegiance to any Bann they choose. Orlais has serfs though, I believe it’s implied. How does that work if in reality you are a dirt poor person in a bann’s territory? The lords still have servants. How does that work for alienage elves?
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 20, 2020 17:15:08 GMT
There's plenty of justifications for picking Templars. Imagine being a peasant, your minding your own business picking turnips, and one day the local mage boy feels a bit sad so he turns into an abomination and murders your friends, family and neighbours.
It's perfectly reasonable to want a little protection from that.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 20, 2020 17:47:31 GMT
Thing is, one needs to "measure our morality" against the Moral Giver (God). Otherwise, we have individual / group / tribal morality, which is not only opinionated but different from each other. Of course, there might not be any Moral Giver available to anybody. I think that's where Thedas is (let's leave the RW out of this) . I'm betting right now that the Black City never had anything to do with any Maker -- probably belonged to Elgar'nan -- and the Chantry's teachings are just as much b.s. as the Dalish stories.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 20, 2020 18:05:37 GMT
It's not an abolsute when many of the societal alternatives on display are pretty abhorrent too. There's no enlightened modern world in Dragon Age. Being a serf in Ferelden isn't some wonderful life of freedom, nor being part of the Qun. Actually most Fereldens are freeholders who can swear allegiance to any Bann they choose. Orlais has serfs though, I believe it’s implied. It's actually outright stated in the RPG rulebook, where it said "Most of the population of Orlais consists of serfs— laborers tied to estates with little to no social mobility". Granted I'm not too sure on the rulebook's canonicity in the grand scheme of things, but from what I have seen most of what it talks about seems to be in line with what is shown in DAs setting. Still, even Word of Thedas emphasizes that Ferelden freemen have more social mobility and rights as opposed to Orlesian commoners. For the most part this just means they have to ability to move wherever they want or work however/whenever they wish (unless you are an elf of course) as opposed to having thier labor dictated to them by the nobility who would likely collect most of the spoils. Oh, and better enforced basic rights like the ability/right to live. In Orlais a noble can murder just about any commoner and see no legal or societal repercussions. Do that stuff in Ferelden and you will be changed with a crime. Although it is a crime is to kill someone if it is in defense of an elf so....not great. But still leagues better than what Orlais offers.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 20, 2020 18:40:21 GMT
There's plenty of justifications for picking Templars. Imagine being a peasant, your minding your own business picking turnips, and one day the local mage boy feels a bit sad so he turns into an abomination and murders your friends, family and neighbours. It's perfectly reasonable to want a little protection from that. You could also be a mage or even just a non-magical person who does not want to believe in the Maker trying to mind your own business, when a bunch of Chantry thugs shows up at your doorstep and starts enacting their laws on you. It is also perfectly reasonable not to want those zealots around.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 20, 2020 19:38:09 GMT
There's plenty of justifications for picking Templars. Imagine being a peasant, your minding your own business picking turnips, and one day the local mage boy feels a bit sad so he turns into an abomination and murders your friends, family and neighbours. It's perfectly reasonable to want a little protection from that. You could also be a mage or even just a non-magical person who does not want to believe in the Maker trying to mind your own business, when a bunch of Chantry thugs shows up at your doorstep and starts enacting their laws on you. It is also perfectly reasonable not to want those zealots around. Well it's the classic needs of the individual v needs of the many debate. It's a real shame when a mage has to go live in the tower but it will be an even greater shame when an abomination wipes out an entire village.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 20, 2020 20:57:11 GMT
You could also be a mage or even just a non-magical person who does not want to believe in the Maker trying to mind your own business, when a bunch of Chantry thugs shows up at your doorstep and starts enacting their laws on you. It is also perfectly reasonable not to want those zealots around. Well it's the classic needs of the individual v needs of the many debate. It's a real shame when a mage has to go live in the tower but it will be an even greater shame when an abomination wipes out an entire village.
As opposed to a bandit gang wiping out a village?
Besides, Tevinter seems to have solved that peculiarity.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 20, 2020 22:08:18 GMT
You could also be a mage or even just a non-magical person who does not want to believe in the Maker trying to mind your own business, when a bunch of Chantry thugs shows up at your doorstep and starts enacting their laws on you. It is also perfectly reasonable not to want those zealots around. Well it's the classic needs of the individual v needs of the many debate. It's a real shame when a mage has to go live in the tower but it will be an even greater shame when an abomination wipes out an entire village. Not quite, I'd say. As long as the systematic "evul corrupted forever guilty" nonsense spouted by Chantry personnel and their divine entitlement is not adressed, I do not even see a point in trying to beat people over the head with rather smugly delivered trolley problem analogies. That scenario with the mage boy you described previously is not completely unavoidable regardless of interment camps like circles or even just locally stationed response forces unless you round up all children and keep them contained somewhere until they are past the age during which magic usually manifests (up to early teens).
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 20, 2020 23:38:17 GMT
Well it's the classic needs of the individual v needs of the many debate. It's a real shame when a mage has to go live in the tower but it will be an even greater shame when an abomination wipes out an entire village.
As opposed to a bandit gang wiping out a village?
Besides, Tevinter seems to have solved that peculiarity.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 20, 2020 23:40:10 GMT
Well it's the classic needs of the individual v needs of the many debate. It's a real shame when a mage has to go live in the tower but it will be an even greater shame when an abomination wipes out an entire village. Not quite, I'd say. As long as the systematic "evul corrupted forever guilty" nonsense spouted by Chantry personnel and their divine entitlement is not adressed, I do not even see a point in trying to beat people over the head with rather smugly delivered trolley problem analogies. That scenario with the mage boy you described previously is not completely unavoidable regardless of interment camps like circles or even just locally stationed response forces unless you round up all children and keep them contained somewhere until they are past the age during which magic usually manifests (up to early teens). It's all about reducing the threat. Besides, it's not just the mage boys we need to worry about. The series has shown there's an abundance of crappy adult mages milling around waiting to be some demon's play thing.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Posts: 5,860 Likes: 13,599
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 20, 2020 23:43:51 GMT
Actually most Fereldens are freeholders who can swear allegiance to any Bann they choose. Orlais has serfs though, I believe it’s implied. How does that work if in reality you are a dirt poor person in a bann’s territory? The lords still have servants. How does that work for alienage elves? Well I guess there’s a population of laborers and tradesmen as well, though none of them are bound to a particular land or lord as a serf or slave would be I guess is the point. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 21, 2020 0:02:23 GMT
Not quite, I'd say. As long as the systematic "evul corrupted forever guilty" nonsense spouted by Chantry personnel and their divine entitlement is not adressed, I do not even see a point in trying to beat people over the head with rather smugly delivered trolley problem analogies. That scenario with the mage boy you described previously is not completely unavoidable regardless of interment camps like circles or even just locally stationed response forces unless you round up all children and keep them contained somewhere until they are past the age during which magic usually manifests (up to early teens). It's all about reducing the threat. Besides, it's not just the mage boys we need to worry about. The series has shown there's an abundance of crappy adult mages milling around waiting to be some demon's play thing. The Avvar make it work, so did the Rivaini seers before the Chantry decided to fuck it up. |
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 21, 2020 0:12:35 GMT
How does that work if in reality you are a dirt poor person in a bann’s territory? The lords still have servants. How does that work for alienage elves? Well I guess there’s a population of laborers and tradesmen as well, though none of them are bound to a particular land or lord as a serf or slave would be I guess is the point. Oh I agree it’s better. However while theoretically they aren’t bound by slavery/serfdom in actuality they are likely be bound to the land in less overt ways.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 21, 2020 0:19:06 GMT
It's all about reducing the threat. Besides, it's not just the mage boys we need to worry about. The series has shown there's an abundance of crappy adult mages milling around waiting to be some demon's play thing. The Avvar make it work, so did the Rivaini seers before the Chantry decided to fuck it up. As far as we know. We haven't explored either enough to know for certain. Also, the Avvar have a strong warrior tradition. An abomination outbreak isn't going to be as calamitous in an Avvar village compared to say a turnip farming village.
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Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 21, 2020 0:23:23 GMT
How does that work if in reality you are a dirt poor person in a bann’s territory? The lords still have servants. How does that work for alienage elves? Well I guess there’s a population of laborers and tradesmen as well, though none of them are bound to a particular land or lord as a serf or slave would be I guess is the point.
I guess those poor people on a bann's land can move to another place if they are able to save up the money, chances are they would wind up in an alienage as well, it's stated in both DAO and in DAI that a lot of poor humans also live in alienages too and Hawke's uncle was pretty much living in the Kirkwall alienage or so close he might as well be in there he only lived up the stairs from the elven aliengae in DA2.
In DAO it's stated that the city elves can move from one alienage to another but they have to pay huge bribes and they have to deal with a lot of red tape as well at least in Ferelden. In other places the red tape may be less, the same, or worse but I would imagine the bribes would still have to be paid.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 21, 2020 0:36:33 GMT
The Avvar make it work, so did the Rivaini seers before the Chantry decided to fuck it up. As far as we know. We haven't explored either enough to know for certain. Also, the Avvar have a strong warrior tradition. An abomination outbreak isn't going to be as calamitous in an Avvar village compared to say a turnip farming village. Well nobody will ever know for certain, when a militarized religion fosters superstitious hatred and fear of anything "other" (not just mages, but elves, Qunari, and other groups of humans), controls and restricts magical study, alters historical records, and enacts as much violence as it supposedly prevents, through the instigation of bloodthirsty wars against the "heathen". "Needs of the many" would suggest that further (honest, non-judgemental) research should be conducted into alternative societal models, in the hopes that *all* might benefit from any knowledge gained. |
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 21, 2020 0:50:45 GMT
Not quite, I'd say. As long as the systematic "evul corrupted forever guilty" nonsense spouted by Chantry personnel and their divine entitlement is not adressed, I do not even see a point in trying to beat people over the head with rather smugly delivered trolley problem analogies. That scenario with the mage boy you described previously is not completely unavoidable regardless of interment camps like circles or even just locally stationed response forces unless you round up all children and keep them contained somewhere until they are past the age during which magic usually manifests (up to early teens). It's all about reducing the threat. Besides, it's not just the mage boys we need to worry about. The series has shown there's an abundance of crappy adult mages milling around waiting to be some demon's play thing. I see you did not address the first part. No reason to continue for me then.
As opposed to a bandit gang wiping out a village?
Besides, Tevinter seems to have solved that peculiarity.
 Well, by these standards, I could that say that chantry agents, after "saving" mages "from their curse and their own stupidity" might just go ahead and use them as rape dolls. Apart from the already established usage as indentured fireball artillery in holy wars of course, and that simply because, while Andrastianism is pretty good at guilt-tripping, they are damn lazy at coming up with alternatives to the Maker-forsaken magic. Why should they anyway, given how used they are to rely on ordering their stockholm'ed mage pets around. The Avvar make it work, so did the Rivaini seers before the Chantry decided to fuck it up. As far as we know. We haven't explored either enough to know for certain. Also, the Avvar have a strong warrior tradition. An abomination outbreak isn't going to be as calamitous in an Avvar village compared to say a turnip farming village. Good. Then how about just rolling back on Andrastianism and introducing "barbarian" lifestyles again? I'm pretty sure the Avvar also have crop farmers.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 21, 2020 0:52:16 GMT
As far as we know. We haven't explored either enough to know for certain. Also, the Avvar have a strong warrior tradition. An abomination outbreak isn't going to be as calamitous in an Avvar village compared to say a turnip farming village. Well nobody will ever know for certain, when a militarized religion fosters superstitious hatred and fear of anything "other" (not just mages, but elves, Qunari, and other groups of humans), controls and restricts magical study, alters historical records, and enacts as much violence as it supposedly prevents, through the instigation of bloodthirsty wars against the "heathen". "Needs of the many" would suggest that further (honest, non-judgemental) research should be conducted into alternative societal models, in the hopes that *all* might benefit from any knowledge gained. Southern Thedas would fall to far more oppressive states if not for the Chantry. Now some reform could be good. It seems reasonable to allow the highly competent and mentally sound mages to perform roles with correct supervision. The shitty mages need to say in the circle though - they're too much of a risk.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 21, 2020 0:58:23 GMT
Well nobody will ever know for certain, when a militarized religion fosters superstitious hatred and fear of anything "other" (not just mages, but elves, Qunari, and other groups of humans), controls and restricts magical study, alters historical records, and enacts as much violence as it supposedly prevents, through the instigation of bloodthirsty wars against the "heathen". "Needs of the many" would suggest that further (honest, non-judgemental) research should be conducted into alternative societal models, in the hopes that *all* might benefit from any knowledge gained. Southern Thedas would fall to far more oppressive states if not for the Chantry. Now some reform could be good. It seems reasonable to allow the highly competent and mentally sound mages to perform roles with correct supervision. The shitty mages need to say in the circle though - they're too much of a risk. There's no evidence that remotely supports that, only grandstanding and threats from individuals who have nothing concrete to back it up. But I am not suggesting that we topple the Chantry and replace it with *nothing*. It's seized resources should be used to build a secular intergovernmental organization, similar to the EU or UN. And I wasn't even proposing the toppling of the Chantry (although I am now). I proposed independent research, and you somehow read "topple the Chantry". |
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Well, by these standards, I could that say that chantry agents, after "saving" mages "from their curse and their own stupidity" might just go ahead and use them as rape dolls. Apart from the already established usage as indentured fireball artillery in holy wars of course, and that simply because, while Andrastianism is pretty good at guilt-tripping, they are damn lazy at coming up with alternatives to the Maker-forsaken magic. Why should they anyway, given how used they are to rely on ordering their stockholm'ed mage pets around.