Captain Obvious
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 19, 2020 18:18:40 GMT
No "both sides"-ing Tevinter slavery. No making any "Not all Templars" silliness. Just good all good vs. evil... in most cases. Look, I just feel that BioWare... just sucks when it comes to grey morality... even as far back as the first game. It wanted to be the "A Song of Ice and Fire" of gaming but it was never like that. I'm fine redeeming villains like Loghain (I prefer Loghain over Alistair) but the only villain that's truly sympathetic is people like the Arashock and even then it's easy to say that they're wrong.
It's like applying "moral greyness" to Star Wars and saying "Not all Sith" or some bullshit. It just... doesn't work.
Sorry, I haven't been in the community for a long time now, so I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that others are (hopefully) feeling the same way about how morality is handled in Dragon Age. I mean, yeah, people can have their flaws, but let's be clear about those flaws. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 19, 2020 18:25:01 GMT
Personally i don't think it's possible to equate the templars to slavery. No doubt there are a great many Templars like Cullen who really wanted to help.
I don't see much middle ground for slavery. You either think it's alright to treat people like chattel or you don't, and i would feel very uncomfortable listening to my PC trying to come up with ways for it to be right but not right. By all means be a cretin and think it's okay, but don't come up with a way someone who is against it justifies it.
That being said, if my PC were to suggest that it wouldn't be possible to get rid of slavery without a full overhaul of the tevinter societal structure, and thus although it's not alright it's also not really possible to free them overnight? That'd be okay.
This is me bringing in my own real world beliefs, of course. No matter how well they treat them, anyone with slaves is morally reprehensible.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 19, 2020 18:26:14 GMT
That doesn't sound beneficial when it comes to roleplaying. Unless you are thinking we could choose to be the most abhorrent slaver apologist known in Thedas.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 19, 2020 18:27:07 GMT
Slavery has been presented as a morally gray issue?
Ouch, you butchered that one.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 18:32:10 GMT
It wanted to be the "A Song of Ice and Fire" of gaming but it was never like that. Thank goodness. Series like that handled grey morality terribly, since it just ended up where you hated everybody and rooted for no one.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 18:33:50 GMT
Slavery has been presented as a morally gray issue? Dorian has a conversation about it, mentioning how slaves in Tevinter could be better off than some of the free people in the South such as the City Elves. But we know he later stops practicing slavery after his time with the Inquisition.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 19, 2020 18:35:47 GMT
Your asking bioware to get rid of the one thing that is embedded into DAs DNA. Hell if anything this is something they do better then ASOF considering the morality of that world just seems...all black. Your asking Bioware to get rid of my favorite thing about the series.
Sure maybe they don't always hit the right note when it comes to their villains...but it goes far deeper then that. The organizations, philosophy, characters, choices, even your companions exhibit some issues of moral greyness which reminds us the world isn't black and white. And as far as the Templars are concerned for instance...why does it have to be 'not all Templars'? What's the problem in painting an organization with a realistic brush. Given the ideals of the Order of course it's going to attract idealistic people.
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Captain Obvious
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 19, 2020 18:52:41 GMT
It wanted to be the "A Song of Ice and Fire" of gaming but it was never like that. Thank goodness. Series like that handled grey morality terribly, since it just ended up where you hated everybody and rooted for no one. Problem is, Dragon Age handles grey morality terribly too.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 19, 2020 18:58:37 GMT
It's meant to be a dark fantasy. If you want just good people being good then I don't know what to tell you.
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Camel
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Post by Camel on Jun 19, 2020 19:23:26 GMT
Don't insert modern day politics into a fantasy world. Ok thx bye. I'm fed up with politics IRL. Make compelling heroes and villains with shades of grey morality, Bioware actually struggles with black & white morality, that's what you see in their games.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Jun 19, 2020 19:42:28 GMT
Good old "good vs. evil" gave us shitty cliche villain- Corypheus. Grey morality gave us Solas.
Nuff said.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 19, 2020 19:43:24 GMT
Don't insert modern day politics into a fantasy world. Ok thx bye. I'm fed up with politics IRL. Make compelling heroes and villains with shades of grey morality, Bioware actually struggles with black & white moralitym that's what you see in their games. I didn't politics.
Also, BioWare struggles with grey morality judging by their Dragon Age games.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 19, 2020 20:22:38 GMT
Don't insert modern day politics into a fantasy world. Ok thx bye. I'm fed up with politics IRL. Make compelling heroes and villains with shades of grey morality, Bioware actually struggles with black & white moralitym that's what you see in their games. I didn't politics.
Also, BioWare struggles with grey morality judging by their Dragon Age games.
Could you provide examples?
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 19, 2020 20:23:28 GMT
Don't insert modern day politics into a fantasy world. Ok thx bye. I'm fed up with politics IRL. Make compelling heroes and villains with shades of grey morality, Bioware actually struggles with black & white moralitym that's what you see in their games. I didn't politics. I think you're a word there.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 19, 2020 21:23:31 GMT
Please no, I want far less moralizing over good and evil absolutes. No more telling me ancient immortal elven gods were evil slavers, more complexity and grayness and less trying to compare to modern day human world.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 19, 2020 22:39:22 GMT
The fact that the most interesting antagonists in DA are morally grey characters (Loghain, the Arishok, and now, Solas) kind of goes against your point. Not that fully evil antagonists can't be interesting antagonists (Howe is definitely an interesting antagonist, for example), but when they made one of such characters the main antagonist, Corypheus, it didn't go too well (although it's not just because he's not as interesting as the others mentioned, but also because of how the plot and events after the attack on Haven made him look weak. They made the opposite mistake of what they did in ME3 with Kai Leng). Besides, the settings itself, in regards of most, if not every, organizations and countries, is about morally grey situations. There's not a single country or organization that you'd consider fully 'good', or 'evil', although some leans a lot more on the opposite end of the spectrum. As ClarkKent said, it's a dark fantasy setting. Having morally grey characters and organizations and countries fits better with it then having the majority being either good or bad. And the setting is definitely remaining a dark fantasy one.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 19, 2020 23:15:19 GMT
I think you're a word there. Oof.
Mega oof.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 20, 2020 1:11:05 GMT
If slavery isn't "morally grey", then Loghain isn't "morally grey", because he participated in slavery.
Every single time this discussion pops up, it's clear that "morally grey" doesn't actually MEAN anything. People apply it inconsistently and hypocritically. When you say something is "morally grey", all you're really saying is that you personally liked it. It belongs with "dark" and "mature" in the box of "Meaningless Descriptors for Game Snobs".
Frankly, I have never found the series to be "morally grey". I never struggle to find the path of action I consider to be morally correct, and I never regret the decisions I made.
I do agree, however, that BioWare should stay RIGHT THE FUCK AWAY from doing or saying anything that might imply that slavery is Good Actually(tm). They do not actually have the writing skill to successfully pull off stories about complex political and societal issues, and they are writing for a modern audience that mostly agrees that slavery is bad, and they shouldn't want any members of their audience to start thinking that slavery is good. That would be extremely stupid.
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Captain Obvious
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 20, 2020 12:57:07 GMT
If slavery isn't "morally grey", then Loghain isn't "morally grey", because he participated in slavery. Every single time this discussion pops up, it's clear that "morally grey" doesn't actually MEAN anything. People apply it inconsistently and hypocritically. When you say something is "morally grey", all you're really saying is that you personally liked it. It belongs with "dark" and "mature" in the box of "Meaningless Descriptors for Game Snobs". Frankly, I have never found the series to be "morally grey". I never struggle to find the path of action I consider to be morally correct, and I never regret the decisions I made. I do agree, however, that BioWare should stay RIGHT THE FUCK AWAY from doing or saying anything that might imply that slavery is Good Actually(tm). They do not actually have the writing skill to successfully pull off stories about complex political and societal issues, and they are writing for a modern audience that mostly agrees that slavery is bad, and they shouldn't want any members of their audience to start thinking that slavery is good. That would be extremely stupid. Agreed, that said, I think Loghain was backed up against a wall there.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 20, 2020 13:46:56 GMT
Personally i don't think it's possible to equate the templars to slavery. No doubt there are a great many Templars like Cullen who really wanted to help. Snip
Really? Have you played DA:O? Your dear Cullen wanted to kill the mages in the Tower.... just to be safe. Help my azz, he wanted to slaughter them all. Good thing he was not in charge.
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 20, 2020 14:06:29 GMT
Personally i don't think it's possible to equate the templars to slavery. No doubt there are a great many Templars like Cullen who really wanted to help. Snip
Really? Have you played DA:O? Your dear Cullen wanted to kill the mages in the Tower.... just to be safe. Help my azz, he wanted to slaughter them all. Good thing he was not in charge.
A person in trauma isn't thinking right. He learns better and he tells the Inquisitor he joined because he wanted to help, and there are countless others who thought the same. Thrask, Greigor and so on. Thus i think 'not all templars' was a fair comment for characters to make in game.
I chose Cullen because he was the most well known example, I don't particularly like or dislike him. I just think he actually did become and remain a Templar because he wanted to help Mages and the rest of the population of Thedas. I'd probably want to kill the people who killed my friends too, were i in his situation.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 20, 2020 14:17:25 GMT
I do agree, however, that BioWare should stay RIGHT THE FUCK AWAY from doing or saying anything that might imply that slavery is Good Actually(tm). They do not actually have the writing skill to successfully pull off stories about complex political and societal issues, and they are writing for a modern audience that mostly agrees that slavery is bad, and they shouldn't want any members of their audience to start thinking that slavery is good. That would be extremely stupid. I don't think they should imply that slavery is great idea. However portrayal should not be as some absolute evil. It's a system so there should be representation of those that look after their slaves as there is of blood magic torturers. Equally we can see in dragon age that it is just as possible for a ferelden lord's son to go around raping his local elves with impugnity , so its hardly as if serfdom is a perfect utopia across the lands. And that's before you get into the whole notion of conveying immortal elvendemi-gods control over their servants as simply slavery.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 20, 2020 14:43:00 GMT
Personally i don't think it's possible to equate the templars to slavery. No doubt there are a great many Templars like Cullen who really wanted to help. Snip
Really? Have you played DA:O? Your dear Cullen wanted to kill the mages in the Tower.... just to be safe. Help my azz, he wanted to slaughter them all. Good thing he was not in charge.
He said that one time, right after he was freed after weeks of torture, without any sleep. In both DA2 and DAI, his stance is different, since in neither games he said something on the same level of his words when you decide to not proceed with the Annulment in DAO. To be clear, my post isn’t about debating if Cullen is good or bad, but only on using that phrase in DAO as proof on his views. It doesn’t reflect his views in either following games.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 20, 2020 15:22:11 GMT
I do agree, however, that BioWare should stay RIGHT THE FUCK AWAY from doing or saying anything that might imply that slavery is Good Actually(tm). They do not actually have the writing skill to successfully pull off stories about complex political and societal issues, and they are writing for a modern audience that mostly agrees that slavery is bad, and they shouldn't want any members of their audience to start thinking that slavery is good. That would be extremely stupid. I don't think they should imply that slavery is great idea. However portrayal should not be as some absolute evil. It's a system so there should be representation of those that look after their slaves as there is of blood magic torturers. Equally we can see in dragon age that it is just as possible for a ferelden lord's son to go around raping his local elves with impugnity , so its hardly as if serfdom is a perfect utopia across the lands. And that's before you get into the whole notion of conveying immortal elvendemi-gods control over their servants as simply slavery. Um... I think BioWare, and anyone else who attempted it, for that matter, would have an extremely hard time arguing that slavery is not an "absolute evil". It doesn't really matter if someone treats their slaves "well" (however we define that). Modern society, by an overwhelming majority, believes that it is wrong to enslave people in the first place, regardless of how they are treated. Freedom is considered a basic entitlement. And frankly, as crimes go, I dare say that slavery is one of the few crimes that it is impossible to justify or sympathise with under any circumstance. A thief can be sympathetic, if they stole essential food or medicine that they needed to survive. A murderer can be sympathetic, if the person they killed was themselves an awful person. I've even seen stories that successfully make kidnappers sympathetic, but the kidnapping never lasts for an extended period. I've yet to see any piece of media where a character "needed" to have slaves. Slavery is not sympathetic, and even if the character is not an "abusive" owner (I would argue that restricting a person's freedom is inherently abusive), there's absolutely no justification for why anyone should have slaves. I highly doubt that BioWare will ever be able to create any sort of extenuating circumstance, however fanciful, where it could be argued that enslaving other people is a genuine necessity. They already gave it their best shot in DA:O.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 20, 2020 15:32:55 GMT
Really? Have you played DA:O? Your dear Cullen wanted to kill the mages in the Tower.... just to be safe. Help my azz, he wanted to slaughter them all. Good thing he was not in charge.
A person in trauma isn't thinking right. He learns better and he tells the Inquisitor he joined because he wanted to help, and there are countless others who thought the same. Thrask, Greigor and so on. Thus i think 'not all templars' was a fair comment for characters to make in game.
I chose Cullen because he was the most well known example, I don't particularly like or dislike him. I just think he actually did become and remain a Templar because he wanted to help Mages and the rest of the population of Thedas. I'd probably want to kill the people who killed my friends too, were i in his situation.
Hard to argue that anything Cullen did in his decade of service at Kirkwall was to "help" mages.
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