The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 28, 2020 20:43:02 GMT
I guess that picking a canon for all players from the previous game, without save import, might’ve worked if they did that after DAO. I don’t think it’s be a good choice now, with the fourth game.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 28, 2020 22:43:41 GMT
DA doesn't really allow us to make "world-altering" choices anyway. Whatever isn't rendered irrelevent by the next big problem will be relegated to character cameos and short sidequests, just like in every previous installment.
Personally, I'm happy with the level of recognition that we've got. It may not satisfy everyone but I doubt they could do more and I wouldn't like them to do less.
I'm not even sure if there are any choices I really cared about in Inquisition, and the ending slides go to great pains to show that, regardless of what we did, things more or less shake out the same. The Circles split, the Chantry plods along, and Orlais teeters on the knife edge of chaos as it has always done.
The only thing I really care about at this point is romance stuff. I go to great pains to make all my protagonists as gay as possible, and I don't want that overwritten. Luckily, BioWare can avoid upsetting me by just not touching on it at all, and bringing in a new protagonist who doesn't have the Inquisitor's baggage.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 29, 2020 10:57:41 GMT
Why would I feel cheated? If I'm playing DA2 and the Warden in that continuity wasn't one I played, it isn't rational to expect choices any of my Wardens made to exist in the setting. None of them were there. It's not like BG2, where I'm playing the same character and yet things that character did either never happened at all or were retconned to happen differently. (Understanding this may require an emotional reaction I just don't have.) I don't know who said it first, but I feel that the DA setting as a whole has a protagonist, and it's the world of Thedas itself. The games are supposed to tell the story of a part of Thedas' Dragon Age, so I expect world continuity. Specifically, I expect to be able to play the games - regardless of who I am playing in any particular game - in a way that preserves world continuity. By which I mean continuity of large-scale developments and characters which can't be made invisible. For instance, it doesn't really matter if Loghain survives DAO or not, or Hawke survives DAI, since their impact is pretty much invisible. Any sequel of the respective games can live well without reference to what happened to them after the games where they had an important role. If you make a choice about who rules a kingdom, meanwhile, the effect of that can't be made invisible easily, if at all. So if I am to make a decision that affects who rules a kingdome, I definitely want it to be preserved.
In my opinion, world continuity should supersede choice. If you can't preserve world contuinity *and* meaningful choices for players that affect the world in visible ways without being nullified by the sequel, then don't let the players make such choices *and* be honest about it. Or alternatively, make choices available that would break continuity for those who want them, but make it clear that they will break contintuity and that you'll play the sequel basically in a different instance of the world. That way, if I feel the continuity-preserving outcome is inacceptable for my player character, I can opt to break world contuinity instead and do a different playthrough for that.
What we have instead, is continuity in small things in spades. These I don't much care about because they are irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. People who play with more focus on characters will likely disagree with me, but if a sequel doesn't regonized a past games's romance I don't much care, even if cared very much about the romance as it affected the character I played back then.
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Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 29, 2020 16:34:35 GMT
I guess that picking a canon for all players from the previous game, without save import, might’ve worked if they did that after DAO. I don’t think it’s be a good choice now, with the fourth game. At some point though it's important that we close up all the decisions from DAO up until DA4. Otherwise everything will get too messy and we won't be able to have any sort of divergent storytelling. A SHITLOAD OF PEOPLE won't like this but it's gonna be done.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 16:39:15 GMT
I guess that picking a canon for all players from the previous game, without save import, might’ve worked if they did that after DAO. I don’t think it’s be a good choice now, with the fourth game. At some point though it's important that we close up all the decisions from DAO up until DA4. Otherwise everything will get too messy and we won't be able to have any sort of divergent storytelling. A SHITLOAD OF PEOPLE won't like this but it's gonna be done. An easy way would be in a future game we start exploring other continents. With no Thedas, none of the choices need to be worried about.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 29, 2020 16:42:54 GMT
At some point though it's important that we close up all the decisions from DAO up until DA4. Otherwise everything will get too messy and we won't be able to have any sort of divergent storytelling. A SHITLOAD OF PEOPLE won't like this but it's gonna be done. An easy way would be in a future game we start exploring other continents. With no Thedas, none of the choices need to be worried about. Dragon Age meets Greedfall ? It's a good option. I've been waiting a shit ton of time for the Elder Scrolls series to move over to Akavir. Arcanum, a classic game, gives you as a starting character someone who is not from the continent.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 16:45:52 GMT
An easy way would be in a future game we start exploring other continents. With no Thedas, none of the choices need to be worried about. Dragon Age meets Greedfall ? It's a good option. I've been waiting a shit ton of time for the Elder Scrolls series to move over to Akavir. Arcanum, a classic game, gives you as a starting character someone who is not from the continent. I hope we go to them some day in DA, especially since those places were the origins of the qunari and humanity.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 29, 2020 18:31:51 GMT
Dragon Age meets Greedfall ? It's a good option. I've been waiting a shit ton of time for the Elder Scrolls series to move over to Akavir. Arcanum, a classic game, gives you as a starting character someone who is not from the continent. I hope we go to them some day in DA, especially since those places were the origins of the qunari and humanity. Is this canon though ? Because if it is... then we'd just be going to... other parts of Thedas
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 18:43:35 GMT
I hope we go to them some day in DA, especially since those places were the origins of the qunari and humanity. Is this canon though ? Because if it is... then we'd just be going to... other parts of Thedas No, that’s not in the games. That’s fanmade.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 29, 2020 21:34:54 GMT
Is this canon though ? Because if it is... then we'd just be going to... other parts of Thedas No, that’s not in the games. That’s fanmade. I could've sworn I saw this in my Mass Effect 3 game. Can anyone else confirm or debunk ?
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Felya87
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Felya87 on Jun 29, 2020 21:59:37 GMT
Is this canon though ? Because if it is... then we'd just be going to... other parts of Thedas No, that’s not in the games. That’s fanmade. I think I've found it in Andromeda, actually.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 22:57:55 GMT
No, that’s not in the games. That’s fanmade. I think I've found it in Andromeda, actually. It's not. People wanted it in Androneda as an Easter Egg. If it was in Andromeda, people would settle there since it's a golden world that actually works.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 30, 2020 3:14:33 GMT
I think I've found it in Andromeda, actually. MEA is the only ME game I've played. I definitely would have remembered if this was in it. At any rate, an Easter egg in another game doesn't count, even if it's by the same studio.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 3:25:45 GMT
If they ever move beyond Thedas, characters can just refer to the world as "the world", just like we do irl, and like they probably already do in-game, if anyone can be arsed to check. It doesn't need its own special name, particularly. I say keep things simple.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 30, 2020 4:22:01 GMT
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 6:15:00 GMT
Now I'm wondering if there could ever be a legit "first contact with another planet" scenario in Dragon Age. You don't need science or science fiction to have visitors from space.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 30, 2020 6:21:55 GMT
Now I'm wondering if there could ever be a legit "first contact with another planet" scenario in Dragon Age. You don't need science or science fiction to have visitors from space. It wold be an interesting thought experiment however such things usually are the domain of sci fi and sci fi and fantasy do have a lot of different...thematic tension.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 6:35:42 GMT
Now I'm wondering if there could ever be a legit "first contact with another planet" scenario in Dragon Age. You don't need science or science fiction to have visitors from space. It wold be an interesting thought experiment however such things usually are the domain of sci fi and sci fi and fantasy do have a lot of different...thematic tension. There are notable examples, though. I'm thinking of The Dark Crystal universe in particular, where the Skekis are explicitly established to be from another world, though their method of travel is not really made clear. And if you don't explain the mechanics of the "science", then it's... well, "magic".
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Post by colfoley on Jun 30, 2020 6:38:02 GMT
It wold be an interesting thought experiment however such things usually are the domain of sci fi and sci fi and fantasy do have a lot of different...thematic tension. There are notable examples, though. I'm thinking of The Dark Crystal universe in particular, where the Skekis are explicitly established to be from another world, though their method of travel is not really made clear. And if you don't explain the mechanics of the "science", then it's... well, "magic". This post just reminded me of the blending of sci fi and fantasy elements from the Witcher and how Ciri could hop worlds and go to other dimensions via her 'magic' and because of her bloodline.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 6:46:14 GMT
There are notable examples, though. I'm thinking of The Dark Crystal universe in particular, where the Skekis are explicitly established to be from another world, though their method of travel is not really made clear. And if you don't explain the mechanics of the "science", then it's... well, "magic". This post just reminded me of the blending of sci fi and fantasy elements from the Witcher and how Ciri could hop worlds and go to other dimensions via her 'magic' and because of her bloodline. Yes, another good one. A lot of older IP would also qualify: later books in the Dragonrider's of Pern series imply, if not directly state, that the planet was colonised by space-faring humans who have forgotten that history. The John Carter of Mars books are, essentially, just fantasy set on Mars, and he travels there by a method of astral projection. And I'd consider the Star Wars universe to be essentially a fantasy set in space. None of the technology is really explained in depth and the Force really is just straight-up magic. Of course, I don't mean to suggest that DA *should* just pivot straight to the 'Sword and Planet' genre, though I'd find it very amusing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2020 6:54:37 GMT
This post just reminded me of the blending of sci fi and fantasy elements from the Witcher and how Ciri could hop worlds and go to other dimensions via her 'magic' and because of her bloodline. Yes, another good one. A lot of older IP would also qualify: later books in the Dragonrider's of Pern series imply, if not directly state, that the planet was colonised by space-faring humans who have forgotten that history. The John Carter of Mars books are, essentially, just fantasy set on Mars, and he travels there by a method of astral projection. And I'd consider the Star Wars universe to be essentially a fantasy set in space. None of the technology is really explained in depth and the Force really is just straight-up magic. Of course, I don't mean to suggest that DA *should* just pivot straight to the 'Sword and Planet' genre, though I'd find it very amusing. I was just about to mention the Dragonriders of Pern series.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 7:25:09 GMT
Actually, when you consider the Origins space-baby, who at least outwardly appears human in all aspects, except that he fell from the sky, we shouldn't discount the possibility that the humans of Thedas are from another planet originally.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 30, 2020 7:46:02 GMT
This post just reminded me of the blending of sci fi and fantasy elements from the Witcher and how Ciri could hop worlds and go to other dimensions via her 'magic' and because of her bloodline. Yes, another good one. A lot of older IP would also qualify: later books in the Dragonrider's of Pern series imply, if not directly state, that the planet was colonised by space-faring humans who have forgotten that history. The John Carter of Mars books are, essentially, just fantasy set on Mars, and he travels there by a method of astral projection. And I'd consider the Star Wars universe to be essentially a fantasy set in space. None of the technology is really explained in depth and the Force really is just straight-up magic. Of course, I don't mean to suggest that DA *should* just pivot straight to the 'Sword and Planet' genre, though I'd find it very amusing. The genre has gone out of fashion somewhat. I wouldn't mind a revival. I don't think it would really work for DA, but you never know.
Edit: The whole lore about the ancient elven empire, with the eluvians and the spaces encompassed by the network, also gives itself to an "external origin" interpretation.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 30, 2020 8:04:15 GMT
Yes, another good one. A lot of older IP would also qualify: later books in the Dragonrider's of Pern series imply, if not directly state, that the planet was colonised by space-faring humans who have forgotten that history. The John Carter of Mars books are, essentially, just fantasy set on Mars, and he travels there by a method of astral projection. And I'd consider the Star Wars universe to be essentially a fantasy set in space. None of the technology is really explained in depth and the Force really is just straight-up magic. Of course, I don't mean to suggest that DA *should* just pivot straight to the 'Sword and Planet' genre, though I'd find it very amusing. The genre has gone out of fashion somewhat. I wouldn't mind a revival. I don't think it would really work for DA, but you never know.
Edit: The whole lore about the ancient elven empire, with the eluvians and the spaces encompassed by the network, also gives itself to an "external origin" interpretation.
Yes, I'm now thinking particularly of Ghilan'ain(sp?) and her "creatures", and also that Origins DLC with whatever those things are called, that Orsino also turned into. Essentially genetic engineering, no? Merely powered and accelerated by a natural force. Arguably, a lot of what mages do would be called 'science' in another context. With how little we've seen of the setting currently, I'd say there isn't any need to move to outer space any time soon, or really at all. There's plenty of scope for (and hints of) extreme and/or alien environs, if they ever decide to progress to the lands beyond Thedas. It only requires imagination.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 30, 2020 8:40:06 GMT
Now I'm wondering if there could ever be a legit "first contact with another planet" scenario in Dragon Age. You don't need science or science fiction to have visitors from space. It wold be an interesting thought experiment however such things usually are the domain of sci fi and sci fi and fantasy do have a lot of different...thematic tension. I do not think they can be clearly distinguished these days, if they ever could. One aspect of this is that people ask scientific questions of a setting, regardless of whether it is marketed as fantasy or not.
Take Star Wars, for instance. I would argue that any setting where some kind of morality is built into the structure of the universe is fantasy, for this can't be explained without a supernatural reality. The only way to approximate this with SF is for the story to feature a virtual reality that simulates such a universe - in which case it isn't actually real, defeating the purpose yet again. However, does Star Wars actually qualify? The Force has been presented in different ways, and one way you can describe it is a kind of energy which can be channeled by humans according to certain psychological characteristics. It's clearly beyond explanation in current science in-world, but not beyond scientific hypotheses, as it would be if there really was a "dark" and "light" side in ontological reality which mapped to human morality. At the same time, scientific explanations of power differentials in users of the Force have met with considerable resistance by almost all of the fans (it didn't help that the attempt was clumsy and lacked all elegance). So, the fantasy-like unresolvable mystique surrounding the Force appears to be an integral part of the setting's appeal as well.
Regarding Thedas, I don't know whether a Thedosian would ever come up with this question, but it is one I find much more interesting than the question whether a Maker - an entity that created Thedas - exists: If a Maker exists, what exactly is this entity?
Considering this, you might want to go and ask: why would I ask this question of Thedas, but not of Middle Earth? What exactly is it of Middle Earth that tells me this is not a question that makes sense to ask there? Surprisingly, it occurs to me that the answer is irrelevant to Middle Earth, but not to Thedas. Middle Earth works as it is, regardless of whether the metaphysics behind it are true or not. You could also ask "how exactly did Gandalf come back" but that's actually not every relevant as well. In Thedas, however, the Black City is a tangible aspect of the world, and the whole setting could feel very different after someone managed to enter the Black City and made some significant discoveries.
So fantasy, as I see it, only manages to remain pure fantasy in modern stories if it manages to make questions like "what exactly is this" and "how does this work" irrelevant to the story. And this is, contrary to what you might think but at the same time rather plausibly, much harder to do if supernatural elements like gods and magic are tangible rather than remote.
For the scenario in question, thus, it can be stated that Thedas gives itself more easily to it than, say, Middle Earth would.
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