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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 12, 2020 3:45:41 GMT
The good-natured ones I would expect to mostly be too invested in their beliefs to entertain the idea of research that might contradict them. And my own metric for sensibility includes parameters like "doesn't believe in invisible sky-men just because a moldy old poem said to". I still think the best way to conduct an unbiased study is to do it without Chantry affiliation. They have a history of suppressing research, ever since Origins. It's just better to leave them out. Again, several of the ones we've met have been more sensible than that. And I've always thought that that metric for sensibility can only sensibly be applied after the scientific revolution, when we collectively realized that there were physical answers to be found beyond the moldy old poems that taught us how to have a civilization in the first place. And even now, only in places that message has gotten to and taken root. If you'd lived in the 1300s, or anywhere today where popular culture hasn't caught up yet, you'd have believed in invisible sky-men too, and it wouldn't have been your fault just for not pulling the scientific method and critical theory straight out of your ass without any cultural buildup. I agree that zero Chantry affiliation would be best, but they unfortunately seem to represent the most learned and educated people on the continent. And anyone else you may send from outside their umbrella would just be biased against them, rather than for them, which could prove even more dangerous. It wasn't as easy as "just find someone independent to verify the Church's claims and objectively compare their models with potential alternatives" historically, either. I think the beginnings of critical theory and the scientific method already exist in Thedas. Throughout the series we meet and assist several individuals in experiments and observation of the natural world. Plus, as of the end of DAI, we have the independent circle now. I'd argue that most of what mages do is, in fact, science.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Oct 12, 2020 4:06:00 GMT
Again, several of the ones we've met have been more sensible than that. And I've always thought that that metric for sensibility can only sensibly be applied after the scientific revolution, when we collectively realized that there were physical answers to be found beyond the moldy old poems that taught us how to have a civilization in the first place. And even now, only in places that message has gotten to and taken root. If you'd lived in the 1300s, or anywhere today where popular culture hasn't caught up yet, you'd have believed in invisible sky-men too, and it wouldn't have been your fault just for not pulling the scientific method and critical theory straight out of your ass without any cultural buildup. I agree that zero Chantry affiliation would be best, but they unfortunately seem to represent the most learned and educated people on the continent. And anyone else you may send from outside their umbrella would just be biased against them, rather than for them, which could prove even more dangerous. It wasn't as easy as "just find someone independent to verify the Church's claims and objectively compare their models with potential alternatives" historically, either. I think the beginnings of critical theory and the scientific method already exist in Thedas. Throughout the series we meet and assist several individuals in experiments and observation of the natural world. Plus, as of the end of DAI, we have the independent circle now. I'd argue that most of what mages do is, in fact, science. The mages are definitely the equivalent of scientists in the "medieval" setting. I mean, think about it: they're literally looking into the laws of nature. Magic is essentially a science as much as it is an art and they have all sorts of theories about the Fade and everything. Of course, it's been a long time since I've played the Dragon Age games (though I really should play DA:I with the expansions this time around). All the same: even back then, I always viewed them as being pretty scientific in many ways.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 12, 2020 6:37:48 GMT
I think the beginnings of critical theory and the scientific method already exist in Thedas. Throughout the series we meet and assist several individuals in experiments and observation of the natural world. Plus, as of the end of DAI, we have the independent circle now. I'd argue that most of what mages do is, in fact, science. I don't. Archimedes correctly calculated the circumference of the Earth from his own backyard over fifteen hundred years before it occurred to enough people to question whether or not gods played a role in the daily working of the universe for it to matter. And it's not unlikely that he himself offered a sacrifice to Minerva the next day to thank her for the insight. Culturally embracing skepticism just isn't as simple as a few people being curious and clever enough to put two and two together and letting everyone else in on it. And those people being busy investigating the real world isn't the same as things like objective and unbiased results being recognized as an inherently important thing to strive for. And I'm not so sure about that mages = scientists thing. I don't feel like we're actually told 'most of what they do' in enough detail to say that with confidence. In any case, I'm wary of any sentiment that expects other cultures to immediately adapt to your morals and way of thought just because you don't feel like it should be that difficult, ignoring the thousands of years it took for your people to get there in the first place. Seems like an irrationally judgmental mindset, and often counterproductive to spreading the good values you supposedly want to share with other cultures who sorely need them. "How the fuck can you dumb, bigoted morons not understand this? It's so obvious! Fuck you, (insert ism)!" isn't a great argument for why others should seek to emulate your supposed open-mindedness and understanding.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Oct 12, 2020 6:52:03 GMT
I haven’t looked through the Keep recently but some of the sections did feel like BioWare wanted to represent every DAI map rather than because there would be any meaningful continuation into future games. Perhaps the Forgotten Oasis was meant to have more meaning and they ran out of time. It doesn’t feel like the zone is incomplete to me, it feels like BioWare decided they needed a massive collectible mini game across every map to emulate other open world games. I always took it as Bioware wanting to have the main quest from each map represented in the Keep for the future in case any of them ever ended up playing a bigger role than what might initially come off. While they have said they think several games ahead, it's gotta be in terms of the overarching story, not in detail. So something like Solassan might possibly end up playing a larger role in some part of future games, or it might not, it's possible they didn't really know, either. And considering they know by now how tedious gathering all of the shards is and how most players don't bother getting all of them, my guess would be that it's really not gonna play a role beyond maybe a line or two. Or maybe they included it in the Keep precisely because it's so tedious and they wanted to reward the players who actually did it with some achievement dopamine.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 12, 2020 14:21:22 GMT
2) Well, as I said, she was made that way so we have at least one person who doesn't go full-blown templar (nonsense) rhetoric. In-game we learn these things either via Cole or Solas/Cassandra banter (I don't know the conditions for the latter, i.e. if it can fire before that war room conversation). These descripitions come from characters who don't have templar abilties, hinting that the Order (Cassandra is entirely different issue, as spirit warrior/SoT, her abilities are most surely straighforward magic, so that's kinda off anyway) doesn't really understand the intricacies of their abilities. Which is nothing new for Chantry agents, anyway. Gaider's description on how Evangeline does her stuff pretty much sound like magic. My original pre-DAI theory was that templars basically use lyrium (the "essence of magic") to emulate one particular magical effect - dispel - and add some enchanted trinkets to that. #Meredith raided her own repository. Also, Lels and Josi use arguments and are not mages. Cullen is like, "I'm templar, yup templarz" immediately. I guess we played to different games then. Kirkwall's chapter/garrison isn't overly popular, but that's due to Meredith power-grabbing up to a point that it affect "ordinary" people. Else, how was that about "Champions of the Just" again? Oh, and by DAI, most templars are AWOL anyway. 3) The Star Wars reference was just an example. Take a different pick if you want where a character gets either shit dumped on them or is made OOC so someone else doesn't appear that bad anymore. As I said, "mages vs. templars" is not a truely valid comparison, even if just for the reasons I've stated.
For TVN, I'm not sure which story you are referencing, since it has been a while on my part for most of the stories. If it is hair demons, well, that is squarely on Lucanis and his sense of "poetic justice", destroying the Solas fade blocker globe. I doubt all of Forfex' victims who got transformed into hair demons were mages before. 4) Safety and liberty for everyone is something I consider pretty much impossible under Chantry rule, unless you are an orlesian noble perhaps, but even those need to stay ahead of their peers and all the butter knives. As for non-humans, mages, infidels and all other undesireables... well... LMFAO?
1) This comes down to a couple of factors. 1. Cullen has been a Templar for years, he has been training with the order for years and years ever since he was a young (pre teen ? ) boy. He has a very intimate understanding of what it means to be a Templar and what they are capable of. He was also the 2IC for the Kirkwall circle so he was also internally well respected. If anything Leiliana and Josie's motives seem a little suspect to me given that Lel should know better given her experience with Templars and Josie would be ignorant on the subject. 2. Cullen's description matches up with what we have seen in the previous two games and even further expanded on in Inquisition (my understanding anyways). Templars are specialists in disrupting and dealing with magical problems, weakening it, reinforcing reality, etc. All of which could be very useful in stopping the breach. To call this 'nonsense Templar rhetoric' certainly seems biased in the extreme. And yes they may not fully know the ins and outs of their abilities but then I do not need to understand how exactly a gun works in order to shoot an intruder dead *looks at the above conversation...chortles* 2) Champions of the Just is a line in the Chant of Light...all of the main quests in DAI was inspired by the Chant of light. 3) If its not a truly valid comparison then why did you make it in the first place? In either case though, at least for me, it does not really work. In neither case were any of the characters ruined (I still like both Han and Fiona, loved Luke), and none of the new characters needed any help being awesome, they were great in their own right. Adding flaws to characters and having them make mistakes isn't ruining a character, I tend to think it actually improves them. 4) And yes, which is why I will be sorely tempted to drive a arrow into Lucanis's eye if I ever meet him in game. 5) I disagree with that assessment. Granted the Chantry also has a looooonnnnnng way to go before it can become a true force for liberty and safety for all members of theodosian society but they are far more along the road then any other major organization or race in the setting. (Unless of course the Qun is also a perverted version of what it once was)...you know as odd as this sounds I am going to shift gears majorly here kind of mid stream and mid sentence so bear with me. And granted I still maintain the above to be true from a certain perspective, after all the Chantry has had its history of reformers and those who have treated other races and the oppressed kindly, and even today that is especially true given most of the leadership options of the modern organization have seen the problems with Chantry dogma and are working to change/ reform it in their varying ways. However given how much the Chantry has been a problem organizationally and given how much Dragon Age seems to look down on organizations in general (Solas's speech at the end of Tresspasser) I think it would be better to distinguish between Andrastanism and The Chantry. The Chantry is a corrupt continent spanning organization which tends to encourage people's worse instincts but Andrastianism...if we are to believe a whole host of historical figures we have bumped into and statements in the lore...was very tolerant of other people's beliefs and existance. Now the question then becomes can the chantry be brought in line with the original intentions of Andrastae or will the organization need to be disbanded and we start from scratch (like we can already do with the Templars), only time will tell...but yes as of now freedom/safety is more possible along those lines then under any of the other major organizations on the continent, especially the Qun. 1) There's a question to be asked of why exactly we got Cullen in the first place. Why do we need a templar as army general, as opposed to an experienced officer from a mundane force? Why does it have to be the second-in-command of frickin' Meredith Stannard? The short and easy meta answer would be a pretty boy "KISA" for fanservice. So I have reviewed the scene again. Dude rudely interjects here as Lels and Cassanda (!) seem to think about powering up that mark. Cassandra doesn't come up with a dispel idea.
Cass: "I mentioned that your mark needs more power to close the breach for good..." Lels: "... which means we must approach the rebel mages for help." Cull: "...and I still disagree. The templars could serve just as well..." Cass: *sighs* "we need power, commander, enough magic to be poured into that mark..." Cull: "... might destroy us all. Templars could suppress the breach, weaken it, so..." Lels: "Pure speculation." Cull: "I was a templar. I know what they are capable of..." Josi, paraphrased: "Unfortunately, neither group will speak to us yet, because we have been declared heretics."
The "nonsese rhetoric" is not about their abilities per se (though gameplay-story segregation does factor in a bit), but how they are advertised, and about "what do templars do?" in general. Cullen has quite a few issues here, given how he changes his interpretations of what his (former) job meant on a whim. I would have no issues if some templar would just clearly state: "I dispel magic". That would be quite a bit more honest than their usual condescending and infantilising blather. Also, Cullen doesn't really elaborate what he means. It is more like the usual "Me templar, me demand respect!".
But yeah, gun analogies are pretty apt for templars. Don't like something? Choppsa head off.
2) Eh, I am aware of that. But... why do you think they got that line while the other quest got a name that could be seen as implying a connection between the rebel mages and the Magisters Sidereal of old?
3) Did I? I started out by saying that find this comparison being drawn everywhere is beside the point for me, and honestly, tiring. For me it has been "How to treat magic or mages?" (or "mages vs. Chantry", depending on the people involved), not "mages vs. templars". Regarding character flaws, I always have to think what a particular detail is supposed to accomplish.
As for Fiona, well I actually had no opinion about her until reading up on her actual characterisation elsewhere made me appreciate her. Her behaviour in DAI doesn't follow (well). Contrast "Nah, better not rely on the whim of others" with what she did in DAI.
4) Well, no disagreement here. 5) Well, I disagree with the notion that anything Chantry is the best starting point. There are things which are left unadressed even by Leliana, who some write off as "emotinally unstable" anyway. I usually write "Chantry" to make that difference, even if there are some things I personally find rather off-putting about Andrastianism. It would actually be interesting task to find out what Andraste herself really had to say as opposed to what people invoking her name claim she said. While gems like "bring the faith to the four corners of the world" is on Kordilius Drakon's exapansonist butt, there's still Transfigurations, supposedly part of Andraste's own teachings written down by one of her "life-time" discples (as opposed to post-mortem), which to me does suggest a certain notion not to accept other beliefs.
Transfigurations 1
The Commandments These truths the Maker has revealed to me: As there is but one world, One life, one death, there is But one god, and He is our Maker. They are sinners, who have given their love To false gods.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Oct 12, 2020 15:26:24 GMT
I haven’t looked through the Keep recently but some of the sections did feel like BioWare wanted to represent every DAI map rather than because there would be any meaningful continuation into future games. Perhaps the Forgotten Oasis was meant to have more meaning and they ran out of time. It doesn’t feel like the zone is incomplete to me, it feels like BioWare decided they needed a massive collectible mini game across every map to emulate other open world games. I always took it as Bioware wanting to have the main quest from each map represented in the Keep for the future in case any of them ever ended up playing a bigger role than what might initially come off. While they have said they think several games ahead, it's gotta be in terms of the overarching story, not in detail. So something like Solassan might possibly end up playing a larger role in some part of future games, or it might not, it's possible they didn't really know, either. And considering they know by now how tedious gathering all of the shards is and how most players don't bother getting all of them, my guess would be that it's really not gonna play a role beyond maybe a line or two. Or maybe they included it in the Keep precisely because it's so tedious and they wanted to reward the players who actually did it with some achievement dopamine. Hey, I don't mind the achievement dopamine.
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Post by eternalambiguity on Oct 12, 2020 16:56:45 GMT
In the real world today, here and now, many scientists or in general highly educated people are to some degree religious. Using that as a metric of "sensibility" is very dumb. I don't see a way to upload images here otherwise I'd do so, but an email I got on February 6 this year:
(more stuff following that)
The man who sent that to me has over 4,000 citations listed on ResearchGate.
Most of these individuals aren't radical in their belief--they're more like Brother Genetivi than anything--but religious belief is in no way truly indicative of intelligence or compassion or what have you.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 12, 2020 17:17:26 GMT
The "nonsese rhetoric" is not about their abilities per se (though gameplay-story segregation does factor in a bit), but how they are advertised, and about "what do templars do?" in general. Cullen has quite a few issues here, given how he changes his interpretations of what his (former) job meant on a whim. I would have no issues if some templar would just clearly state: "I dispel magic". That would be quite a bit more honest than their usual condescending and infantilising blather. Also, Cullen doesn't really elaborate what he means. It is more like the usual "Me templar, me demand respect!". Uhm... what? That's not him advertising or even advocating Templars politically, he's just pointing out that the Templars' anti-magic abilities can be used to temporarily diminish the potency of the Breach which may be a much safer solution than proportionately scaling up the power of the Mark in order to be able to close it. Which makes sense to me. You'll have a harder time justifying a plan to put out a fire that starts with buying a hundred gallons of gasoline. The world is at stake, and the solution essentially comes down to a particular physics problem that he's specifically qualified to at least give an opinion on, and he gives it. There's nothing self-important or condescending about that. He's not throwing a hissy fit or trying to take control of the discussion because "I be Templar", he's trying to contribute to figuring out the best way to deescalate a disaster. Obviously he doesn't elaborate on what he means because in-universe it would come down to "boring" technical magical theory, and Inquisition is all about keeping things vague in order to move the giant epic story forward without getting bogged down in specifics or gritty details. Morrigan and Solas don't go into details about the Well of Sorrows' biological effects on the one who drinks it while debating how it should be used either, nor does Leliana or Cassandra make it clear exactly how the Mark can be "powered up" or what ramifications that might have, or why they don't take Cullens' concerns for a proportionately scaled-up magical accident or disaster seriously. Personally, I think they come out of the discussion looking irrationally dismissive of him, not the other way around. You can't say that Templars in particular not describing to the player exactly how their powers work is evidence of condescension. Nobody in the setting does. This is some seriously biased thinking.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 12, 2020 17:54:24 GMT
Most of these individuals aren't radical in their belief--they're more like Brother Genetivi than anything--but religious belief is in no way truly indicative of intelligence or compassion or what have you. Neither is the lack of it? To be honest, Ferdinand "I want to learn about people so they are easier to convert" Genitivi is a shitty example. I'll take someone like Suvi from MEA who isn't supporting cultural genocide over him. Too bad Bioware handled the discussion with her about science vs. religion rather badly, i.e. ending up giving Ryder the choice between either dismissing her completely or declare themselves a believer (unless Ryder tries to end the discussion early).
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 12, 2020 18:04:59 GMT
I have no clue what I said this time that leads you to assume it is time for this kind of usual diatribe of yours. Offended with my assumption on the Chantry? How come to have this focus on magopocalypse, unless you somehow want to imply that this particular organisation is in some way necessary for dealing with magic according to your view, which it is not for reasons I would consider... obvious? Is this piece of smugness an attempt to justify the rest of your post or something? Since when did an "average Thedosian" ever had any remotely useful (or any, really) knowledge about magic? 1) Not offended, no. I just had a thought in response to your post. Is that... wrong now? And since I've never made this particular argument on the forum before I'm not sure what you mean by 'usual'. 2) Your statement just implied that the Chantry is a main obstacle on the way to a world with greater safety and liberty for 'everybody', and I feel like that notion seriously underestimates how uninterested human beings generally are in safety and liberty for others than themselves and their own, particularly people noticeably different from themselves, completely regardless of the Chantry's influence. Whether or not you're right about the Chantry and everything they represent, you still need to contend with human nature in a quasi-medieval world where one particular kind of people have way more destructive potential than everybody else. You're talking about dynamics that we're having a lot of trouble understanding and dealing with right now, even without mages and Chantries. Getting rid of a corrupt church in the state Thedas is in doesn't even begin to address the problem you say you're interested in solving, and could quickly exacerbate it if not done very carefully and thoughtfully. Mage towers are problematic, sure, but things can quickly get way worse than that without Chantry supervision. That's all I was saying. There's no need to be so defensive and uncivil. The average Thedasian doesn't need to know a single useful thing about magic to know that it's factually a threat to them. Which history tells them, modern and ancient. Which is all they need to know to feel like they have to take action to protect themselves. Actions which could easily take shapes way worse and more dangerous and counterproductive - and cruel - than what the Chantry is, if the Chantry isn't already there to do the job of making them feel safer. You see? That's all I wanted to point out. Please don't shoot the messenger. Incivility? Honestly? The last paragraph in the initial post of yours comes across as pretty much the first half of the following quote, give or take a few words.
"How the fuck can you dumb, bigoted morons not understand this? It's so obvious! Fuck you, (insert ism)!" isn't a great argument for why others should seek to emulate your supposed open-mindedness and understanding. The "nonsese rhetoric" is not about their abilities per se (though gameplay-story segregation does factor in a bit), but how they are advertised, and about "what do templars do?" in general. Cullen has quite a few issues here, given how he changes his interpretations of what his (former) job meant on a whim. I would have no issues if some templar would just clearly state: "I dispel magic". That would be quite a bit more honest than their usual condescending and infantilising blather. Also, Cullen doesn't really elaborate what he means. It is more like the usual "Me templar, me demand respect!". Uhm... what? That's not him advertising or even advocating Templars politically, he's just pointing out that the Templars' anti-magic abilities can be used to temporarily diminish the potency of the Breach which may be a much safer solution than proportionately scaling up the power of the Mark in order to be able to close it. Which makes sense to me. You'll have a harder time justifying a plan to put out a fire that starts with buying a hundred gallons of gasoline. The world is at stake, and the solution essentially comes down to a particular physics problem that he's specifically qualified to at least give an opinion on, and he gives it. There's nothing self-important or condescending about that. He's not throwing a hissy fit or trying to take control of the discussion because "I be Templar", he's trying to contribute to figuring out the best way to deescalate a disaster. Obviously he doesn't elaborate on what he means because in-universe it would come down to "boring" technical magical theory, and Inquisition is all about keeping things vague in order to move the giant epic story forward without getting bogged down in specifics or gritty details. Morrigan and Solas don't go into details about the Well of Sorrows' biological effects on the one who drinks it while debating how it should be used either, nor does Leliana or Cassandra make it clear exactly how the Mark can be "powered up" or what ramifications that might have, or why they don't take Cullens' concerns for a proportionately scaled-up magical accident or disaster seriously. Personally, I think they come out of the discussion looking irrationally dismissive of him, not the other way around. You can't say that Templars in particular not describing to the player exactly how their powers work is evidence of condescension. Nobody in the setting does. This is some seriously biased thinking. I already said (several times?) that "nonsense rhetoric" doesn't refer to their abilities as described in lore (as opposed to actual gameplay). I don't know how you come to infer that from the quote. I do find it odd that Cassandra of all people does not advocate for using templar dispel though. Yes, she's a spirit warrior (unknowingly, at this point, anyway), but I suppose it would be in character for her regardless.
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 12, 2020 18:34:36 GMT
1) Incivility? Honestly? The last paragraph in the initial post of yours comes across as pretty much the first half of the following quote, give or take a few words. 2) I already said (several times?) that "nonsense rhetoric" doesn't refer to their abilities as described in lore (as opposed to actual gameplay). I don't know how you come to infer that from the quote. I do find it odd that Cassandra of all people does not advocate for using templar dispel though. Yes, she's a spirit warrior (unknowingly, at this point, anyway), but I suppose it would be in character for her regardless. 1) That's fair. I might have been a little too sarcastic, and I'm sorry if that offended you or hurt my message. 2) You did, yes, and then you went on to specify that Cullen's dialogue while trying to help us determine how best to deal with the Breach came across as "I'm a Templar. Respect me!" just because he had an opinion and didn't pull out a blackboard and start explaining the technical formula for Templar Power vs. Breach, while Cassandra and Leliana tried to have a conversation that would determine the future of the world without their partner and completely disregarded his input even though he had valid concerns and is technically better qualified to talk about the issue than either of them. Which, as I said, betrays a certain bias. And I honestly don't understand what you're accusing me of "inferring" there. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said. You'll have to explain it more clearly.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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August 2017
theascendent
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The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Oct 12, 2020 18:52:33 GMT
Ahem. Focusing on the topic of the thread, I wonder if the old Tevinter language Tevene will be used. I remember someone mentioning it was the Thedas version of Latin (no human scholar would dare to learn the Elven tongue) and that it was the script many spellbooks are written in. Though considering how much the Tevinters scavenged from the Ancient Elves, it wouldn't surprise me if the language has its roots in the Elven alphabet.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2020 19:08:38 GMT
Ahem. Focusing on the topic of the thread, I wonder if the old Tevinter language Tevene will be used. I remember someone mentioning it was the Thedas version of Latin (no human scholar would dare to learn the Elven tongue) and that it was the script many spellbooks are written in. Though considering how much the Tevinters scavenged from the Ancient Elves, it wouldn't surprise me if the language has its roots in the Elven alphabet. I wouldn't say that necessarily. After all the humans came from somewhere, so perhaps the root of Tevene is the language those explorers used to speak.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2020 19:22:41 GMT
Ahem. Focusing on the topic of the thread, I wonder if the old Tevinter language Tevene will be used. I remember someone mentioning it was the Thedas version of Latin (no human scholar would dare to learn the Elven tongue) and that it was the script many spellbooks are written in. Though considering how much the Tevinters scavenged from the Ancient Elves, it wouldn't surprise me if the language has its roots in the Elven alphabet. Tevene is indeed based on Latin and whenever they give words allegedly in Tevene, I can pretty much work out what they mean from my trusty pocket Latin dictionary. Ancient Tevene is meant to be a bit more difficult because of the way language does change over time and I think that may also be true of ancient Latin. They probably didn't use elven words because it is so difficult to get a true translation. However, in Masked Empire Felassan says that Tevinter copied elven runes like children tracing letters. Presumably they discovered what these runes would do by trial and error and then continued to use them. We should also bear in mind that it was suggested the ancient human tribes may have learned magic originally not from demons of the Fade (or in their dreams) but from ancient elves. Whilst many elven enclaves did enter Uthenera after the raising of the Veil, as detailed in the history of Arlathan as told by Gisharel, he also mentions how they did this because of the bad effect they thought mixing with humans was having of those that did. Whilst they may not have been responsible for elves aging, it is likely the humans did bring new diseases, which Gisharel says the elves started dying from, but also the influence could have run both ways and some elves preferred to establish themselves with their new neighbours rather than keep them at a distance. I'm fully convinced the reason magic started to become evident in human tribes at this time was because of the elf bloodied children that resulted from this mixing of the races. Over time the human lore keepers forgot the elven ancestors responsible for introducing magic into their race. That some elves were teaching humans is also confirmed by the stories of the Fog Dancers on Seheron. They had a very ancient culture and say that their heroes of old learned at the feet of the elves. It is likely the people on Seheron weren't the only ones but others that learned, like the Neromenians, preferred to use their lessons to conquer their neighbours and eventually established an empire. So it is not simply coincidence that the Tevinter Imperium seems to be a replica of the ancient elven empire but the logical result of being coached in the technique of empire building by ancient elves.
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eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 292 Likes: 350
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eternalambiguity
I am alive.
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eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by eternalambiguity on Oct 12, 2020 19:25:40 GMT
Most of these individuals aren't radical in their belief--they're more like Brother Genetivi than anything--but religious belief is in no way truly indicative of intelligence or compassion or what have you. Neither is the lack of it? To be honest, Ferdinand "I want to learn about people so they are easier to convert" Genitivi is a shitty example. I'll take someone like Suvi from MEA who isn't supporting cultural genocide over him. Too bad Bioware handled the discussion with her about science vs. religion rather badly, i.e. ending up giving Ryder the choice between either dismissing her completely or declare themselves a believer (unless Ryder tries to end the discussion early). The phrase "religious belief is not indicative of intelligence" already includes that stance (and just to be clear I agree).
I was more thinking of his statement in the Temple of Sacred Ashes, where he interprets "the Maker will punish those who enter carelessly" (or whatever it says, I don't remember exactly) as "Willy toiled for many a night to perfect the cunning mechanisms which would send a spike up the arse of an unwary intruder" (that one is a lot harder to forget ). General belief as opposed to dogmatically interpreting ancient texts literally.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 613 Likes: 812
Member is Online
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Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
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theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Oct 12, 2020 20:31:01 GMT
Ahem. Focusing on the topic of the thread, I wonder if the old Tevinter language Tevene will be used. I remember someone mentioning it was the Thedas version of Latin (no human scholar would dare to learn the Elven tongue) and that it was the script many spellbooks are written in. Though considering how much the Tevinters scavenged from the Ancient Elves, it wouldn't surprise me if the language has its roots in the Elven alphabet. Tevene is indeed based on Latin and whenever they give words allegedly in Tevene, I can pretty much work out what they mean from my trusty pocket Latin dictionary. Ancient Tevene is meant to be a bit more difficult because of the way language does change over time and I think that may also be true of ancient Latin. They probably didn't use elven words because it is so difficult to get a true translation. However, in Masked Empire Felassan says that Tevinter copied elven runes like children tracing letters. Presumably they discovered what these runes would do by trial and error and then continued to use them. We should also bear in mind that it was suggested the ancient human tribes may have learned magic originally not from demons of the Fade (or in their dreams) but from ancient elves. Whilst many elven enclaves did enter Uthenera after the raising of the Veil, as detailed in the history of Arlathan as told by Gisharel, he also mentions how they did this because of the bad effect they thought mixing with humans was having of those that did. Whilst they may not have been responsible for elves aging, it is likely the humans did bring new diseases, which Gisharel says the elves started dying from, but also the influence could have run both ways and some elves preferred to establish themselves with their new neighbours rather than keep them at a distance. I'm fully convinced the reason magic started to become evident in human tribes at this time was because of the elf bloodied children that resulted from this mixing of the races. Over time the human lore keepers forgot the elven ancestors responsible for introducing magic into their race. That some elves were teaching humans is also confirmed by the stories of the Fog Dancers on Seheron. They had a very ancient culture and say that their heroes of old learned at the feet of the elves. It is likely the people on Seheron weren't the only ones but others that learned, like the Neromenians, preferred to use their lessons to conquer their neighbours and eventually established an empire. So it is not simply coincidence that the Tevinter Imperium seems to be a replica of the ancient elven empire but the logical result of being coached in the technique of empire building by ancient elves. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why humans can perform magic, it might also explain the origin of the Qunari, Elves mutated via Dragon Blood to become powerful slaves. Based on what Nights showed us I wouldn't be surprised if Ghilan'nain had a hand in their creation. Why else would they have magic, and it would connect them to the rest of Thedas in a way. After all the Empire of Elvenhan apparently stretched throughout the whole continent, it wasn't just limited to the remnants in the Forest of Arlathan. Some Elven survivors might have found the primitive humans an sought to use them as an army. Even lacking immortality they still had magic, (most I imagine), but when they started ageing and having human children it was too late to back out. Again this would have to be humanity before written records because when the Ancient Tevinters discovered the Elves (again) they didn't know what they were, aside from having magic and looking vaguely human.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2020 20:32:24 GMT
Tevene is indeed based on Latin and whenever they give words allegedly in Tevene, I can pretty much work out what they mean from my trusty pocket Latin dictionary. Ancient Tevene is meant to be a bit more difficult because of the way language does change over time and I think that may also be true of ancient Latin. They probably didn't use elven words because it is so difficult to get a true translation. However, in Masked Empire Felassan says that Tevinter copied elven runes like children tracing letters. Presumably they discovered what these runes would do by trial and error and then continued to use them. We should also bear in mind that it was suggested the ancient human tribes may have learned magic originally not from demons of the Fade (or in their dreams) but from ancient elves. Whilst many elven enclaves did enter Uthenera after the raising of the Veil, as detailed in the history of Arlathan as told by Gisharel, he also mentions how they did this because of the bad effect they thought mixing with humans was having of those that did. Whilst they may not have been responsible for elves aging, it is likely the humans did bring new diseases, which Gisharel says the elves started dying from, but also the influence could have run both ways and some elves preferred to establish themselves with their new neighbours rather than keep them at a distance. I'm fully convinced the reason magic started to become evident in human tribes at this time was because of the elf bloodied children that resulted from this mixing of the races. Over time the human lore keepers forgot the elven ancestors responsible for introducing magic into their race. That some elves were teaching humans is also confirmed by the stories of the Fog Dancers on Seheron. They had a very ancient culture and say that their heroes of old learned at the feet of the elves. It is likely the people on Seheron weren't the only ones but others that learned, like the Neromenians, preferred to use their lessons to conquer their neighbours and eventually established an empire. So it is not simply coincidence that the Tevinter Imperium seems to be a replica of the ancient elven empire but the logical result of being coached in the technique of empire building by ancient elves. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why humans can perform magic, it might also explain the origin of the Qunari, Elves mutated via Dragon Blood to become powerful slaves. Based on what Nights showed us I wouldn't be surprised if Ghilan'nain had a hand in their creation. Why else would they have magic, and it would connect them to the rest of Thedas in a way. After all the Empire of Elvenhan apparently stretched throughout the whole continent, it wasn't just limited to the remnants in the Forest of Arlathan. Some Elven survivors might have found the primitive humans an sought to use them as an army. Even lacking immortality they still had magic, (most I imagine), but when they started ageing and having human children it was too late to back out. Again this would have to be humanity before written records because when the Ancient Tevinters discovered the Elves (again) they didn't know what they were, aside from having magic and looking vaguely human. Please no. Having everything be "because ancient elves" would be terrible.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 12, 2020 20:48:20 GMT
I’d love to see a properly evil ancient elf make the scene. Having someone who is basically elven Thanos like Solas is fine, but I’d love to see a properly evil knife-ear supremacist lol.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 12, 2020 20:50:35 GMT
I’d love to see a properly evil ancient elf make the scene. Having someone who is basically elven Thanos like Solas is fine, but I’d love to see a properly evil knife-ear supremacist lol. Are we talking MCU Thanos or Comic book Thanos?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 12, 2020 20:54:28 GMT
I’d love to see a properly evil ancient elf make the scene. Having someone who is basically elven Thanos like Solas is fine, but I’d love to see a properly evil knife-ear supremacist lol. Are we talking MCU Thanos or Comic book Thanos? MCU Thanos. That whole courting the literal personification of death was always kind of hilarious. Comic Thanos is such a simp.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 12, 2020 20:56:15 GMT
Are we talking MCU Thanos or Comic book Thanos? MCU Thanos. That whole courting the literal personification of death was always kind of hilarious. Well, he wasn't called the Mad Titan for nothing. 😆
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 613 Likes: 812
Member is Online
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theascendent
613
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Oct 12, 2020 21:11:23 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why humans can perform magic, it might also explain the origin of the Qunari, Elves mutated via Dragon Blood to become powerful slaves. Based on what Nights showed us I wouldn't be surprised if Ghilan'nain had a hand in their creation. Why else would they have magic, and it would connect them to the rest of Thedas in a way. After all the Empire of Elvenhan apparently stretched throughout the whole continent, it wasn't just limited to the remnants in the Forest of Arlathan. Some Elven survivors might have found the primitive humans an sought to use them as an army. Even lacking immortality they still had magic, (most I imagine), but when they started ageing and having human children it was too late to back out. Again this would have to be humanity before written records because when the Ancient Tevinters discovered the Elves (again) they didn't know what they were, aside from having magic and looking vaguely human. Please no. Having everything be "because ancient elves" would be terrible. Yeah, in hindsight it would be lazy. We got our fill of 'Ancient Elves= A Wizard did it' in Inquisition. Still I wonder what humans were like before Tevinter or the Neromenians.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 12, 2020 21:13:06 GMT
Please no. Having everything be "because ancient elves" would be terrible. Yeah, in hindsight it would be lazy. We got our fill of 'Ancient Elves= A Wizard did it' in Inquisition. Still I wonder what humans were like before Tevinter or the Neromenians. Most likely like cavemen.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2020 21:18:09 GMT
Please no. Having everything be "because ancient elves" would be terrible. Yeah, in hindsight it would be lazy. We got our fill of 'Ancient Elves= A Wizard did it' in Inquisition. Still I wonder what humans were like before Tevinter or the Neromenians. Hopefully future games start exploring the other continents so we can find out.
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Captain Obvious
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 454 Likes: 474
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forumking
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Post by Captain Obvious on Oct 12, 2020 21:33:11 GMT
Please no. Having everything be "because ancient elves" would be terrible. Yeah, in hindsight it would be lazy. We got our fill of 'Ancient Elves= A Wizard did it' in Inquisition. Still I wonder what humans were like before Tevinter or the Neromenians. True, but have we gotten "That wizard came from the Moon" trope yet? No? I thought not!
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