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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 29, 2020 17:23:32 GMT
Dread Wolf was what he was called after his slave rebellion. There was a degree of inconsistency in this. First off that is how Flemeth addresses him and I didn't get the sense she was being ironic. Second, what about all those big wolf statues around the place, particularly that one at the top of a mountain. I can't see his enemies allowing people to erect that after he rebelled against them. Every mosaic we discover has him shown as a wolf, unlike the other Evanuris where they are depicted as actual people, slightly odd looking ones, but nevertheless people. Why would he be shown with all the others if he was already the enemy of the gods? Lastly, the fact he had to deny he was a god to those who joined in his rebellion. If he had never been seen as a fellow god, why did the other elves believe this? So either he had always been seen as a wolf for some symbolic reason or he was called Dread Wolf by his enemies whilst he was still one of the gods, may be that was even how he achieved god status. May be he was even sponsored for godhood by Mythal for services rendered, just as Ghilan'nain was sponsored by Andruil. You see, I still think he was some form of spy master for Mythal, or dirty tricks operator behind the scenes when Mythal needed something done covertly. If he didn't have the status of the Dread Wolf long before his rebellion, none of the iconography connected with him makes any sense. Regarding Flemeth: He did say he took it as a badge of pride after he was called it, so it brought hope to his friends. So Mythal, a friend, could call him it unironically and still have the origin be perjorative originally. She just means it differently. Second, she might have also been using it purposefully in a gentle chastisement in that scene. She addresses him as it when she's also saying he should never have given Corypheus the orb.
(It could of course have also just been for the shock factor/mic drop effect for the audience that the reveal of that name would have, but I think we both prefer in-universe explanations. lol)
As for everything depicting him as a wolf, I think that does just mean he was a wolf. Just not always on the other Evanuris' bad side. They added "Dread" to it in the propaganda war once he'd openly defied the ones he defied, and it stuck.
I get the impression the slave rebellion he led didn't include acting against Mythal's domain (possibly cus she didn't have slaves, just servants who took her markings willingly?) and she went "plausible deniability" and took a publicly neutral stance on his actions, while helping him secretly(hence the well knowing his pass phrase). He might have been working for her, even as a fellow "god", before that.
Being a god does not necessarily mean identical responsibilities or equal status among "the gods". Mythal was still essentially queen of them all, with Elgar'nan being the only one close to her equal. The mosaics of him as a wolf could easily be from when he was just Solas, who happened to be a wolf (or had a wolf form that he preferred). And he only later became "The Dread Wolf" once he'd fallen out of favor with the others. So I don't see the issue there?
We say they're mosaics of the Dread Wolf *now*, and Abelas refers to him as such *now*, b/c that's become his main epithet. For moderns, that's the only name they've ever known that image by. But the statues and mosaics can just be from a time when he wasn't known as that. Or, as far as the more recent Dales architecture, a time when the stories of his good traits might have been more widely remembered. Though that last bit is more of a theory of mine than having been stated outright in the game yet.
If you are a templar, every problem is due to magic or mages. I mean, he was from an orlesian noble family, right? Should have known about bloody political shenanigans then. Clearly Urian won him over. Mind you, it has crossed my mind that may be he utilised a little bit of help via blood magic but did it so subtly that Lambert wasn't aware of it. So he saw corruption everywhere but right in front of him. I know Seekers are meant to be immune to blood magic mind control but that may be when you are attempting direct control. May be just obscuring the truth or altering his memory slightly would still be possible. Or may be Lambert wasn't a proper Seeker; he was after all made a Seeker at a very late age. Cassandra was considered almost too old at the age of 12, yet Lambert was 29. It must have something to do with the mind being more pliable when you are younger, more able to accept the process that leads to gaining the powers. So his mind was too fixed for the spirit to join up permanently. Interesting that possession by a spirit(maybe specifically of Faith?), even temporarily, renders one immune to blood magic. (Or at least the mind control, as I assume someone stabbing you with a razor edge made out of blood will still hurt you. ) Can you source that bit? About Seekers being immune to mind control, I mean. Does Cass tell us or something?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 17:40:45 GMT
IF he can literally break into Inky's dreams, and the dreams of everyone they come in contact with, AND the people that THOSE people come in contact with in some sort of efficient fashion I don't think he is capable of this. I don't think he can even read minds. When Inky who has been romanced sees the image of a wolf watching, I think it is just him sending a message via dream sending. That's a sort of one way thing according to the description in the Core Rule Book and is similar to what the ancient Dreamers did with their followers, sending them messages to help them. Now Mihris claimed Dreamers can see the entire world but I think Solas was telling the truth when he said he is limited as to what he can see by the places he has been in the past. So Minrathous may well muddle his vision somewhat because whilst it is likely built over an old elven site, the main structure was developed by humans and it is the product of magical construction, not to mention the considerable magical energy that likely permeates the area, plus the prevalence of blood magic. If blood magic makes it harder for him to enter the Fade, may be blood magic makes it harder for him to see out. When he kills people he is unfamiliar with in their sleep, it is likely he needs some sort of focus to help him, particularly if they aren't magically endowed. When he killed the dwarves, there was one of his own agents in close proximity, so may be they helped him locate the dwarves so he could kill them, or alternatively he just got some of his spirit/demon allies to do this. So he isn't omnipotent and does probably have limits to what he can do via the Fade. Where his familiarity with the members of the Inquisition are concerned, it could just be the good old fashioned standard get his agents to watch them and who they associate with, together with intercepting messages. Clearly he couldn't simply read minds because he needed to attend that meeting in person to find out what they knew. He also describes to Sera the effective way to run a covert network: "You have already divided your group's membership. That is wise. No one cell can betray all your secrets. The next step is to establish a rhythm. When your enemies pursue, you vanish. When they become complacent, you harass them. When they are weak, you strike in earnest." I'd also add that in the case of his current agents there is the additional instruction: "If captured, you commit suicide so you cannot betray your secrets." I seem to recall it was suggested at the end of Trespasser that if you keep a reduced size Inquisition, you would have more resources to use in the hunt for Solas but greater chance of him infiltrating and learning your secrets. If you disband totally, you can start again from scratch and your network will be secure, provided Inky follows the guidelines he laid down to Sera. What he did say was that he was quite prepared to kill anyone who got in the way of his plans and I'm sure that applies to any Inky, even a romanced one, so they really do need to act in such a way that he does not see them coming.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2020 17:46:07 GMT
Earlier in the thread, I'd mentioned the choice to Split Geralt and Ciri up and to choose which one to go fight which battle with. I was incorrect. You do pick which person to fight who (I think, there may be a default I'm not quite understanding from some of my googling but I think the choice is ultimately Geralt/PC's to make) but then you get to do both battles.
Still, I like my idea. if you've never played anything before DA4, your new PC can take on Solas, while Inky-who-just-showed-up takes on the lesser threat off screen. But if you're a long term fan, you can then choose Inky to take care of Solas, and let new PC take care of other threat. So it could be one fight or two fights, but either way, the player, new or old, gets to choose who takes Solas on in the final battle.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 17:47:22 GMT
Can you source that bit? About Seekers being immune to mind control, I mean. Does Cass tell us or something?
I'm pretty sure it was Cassandra when the Inquisitor asks what Seekers' special powers are. I'd need to check back on You Tube to see if I can find the exact quote. Remember there was another interesting power that only certain Seekers have and Cassandra claimed she did not, the ability to set the lyrium in the blood of the mage aflame. Now this sounded very similar to the blood magic spell Blood Wound except the Seeker is specifically targeting the lyrium in the blood. The blood magic spell doesn't necessarily kill but can simply be used to paralyse with pain, so I suppose the Seeker spell might be able to be adjusted similarly. I imagine that Solas has very concentrated lyrium in his blood, so this information may be pertinent at some point.
EDIT: I remembered it slightly wrong. These are her actual words:
We cannot be possessed by demons and are immune to mind control. I can set the lyrium within a person’s blood aflame. Both mages and Templars bend before my will. Some Seekers use it to interrogate, others merely to paralyze. Once there was a Seeker who could use it to kill. That particular gift is considered rare.
You will see that all Seekers can set the lyrium aflame but only to interrogate (torture) or paralyse. It is a rare Seeker that has the power to kill with this "gift".
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 29, 2020 17:49:39 GMT
I get the impression the slave rebellion he led didn't include acting against Mythal's domain (possibly cus she didn't have slaves, just servants who took her markings willingly?) and she went "plausible deniability" and took a publicly neutral stance on his actions, while helping him secretly(hence the well knowing his pass phrase). He might have been working for her, even as a fellow "god", before that.
Being a god does not necessarily mean identical responsibilities or equal status among "the gods". Mythal was still essentially queen of them all, with Elgar'nan being the only one close to her equal. The mosaics of him as a wolf could easily be from when he was just Solas, who happened to be a wolf (or had a wolf form that he preferred). And he only later became "The Dread Wolf" once he'd fallen out of favor with the others. So I don't see the issue there?
We say they're mosaics of the Dread Wolf *now*, and Abelas refers to him as such *now*, b/c that's become his main epithet. For moderns, that's the only name they've ever known that image by. But the statues and mosaics can just be from a time when he wasn't known as that. Or, as far as the more recent Dales architecture, a time when the stories of his good traits might have been more widely remembered. Though that last bit is more of a theory of mine than having been stated outright in the game yet.
I've always thought the whole slavery argument for his rebellion was overly simplistic.
I'd lose all respect for them if they tried to say actually its ok for Mythal to have servants with vallaslin under her magical control while trying to say Evanuris doing the same thing are forcing all their servants into slavery.
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Post by witchcocktor on Aug 29, 2020 17:57:19 GMT
I do like the idea of the new PC clearing the way for Inquisitor to get to Solas so that the Inquisitor can do the checkmate, but any sort of dual protagonist situation is a big no no.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2020 18:04:54 GMT
So it could be one fight or two fights, but either way, the player, new or old, gets to choose who takes Solas on in the final battle. Oh my gosh, what if it was even like Origins final battle with the arch Demon and you got to break your cast of companions into two groups? So then I could take a support team into the battle against Solas, even if they weren't people Inky personally knew. *getting way too attached to this idea*
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 18:14:30 GMT
I've always thought the whole slavery argument for his rebellion was overly simplistic. He also admits that he only turned against the gods after they killed Mythal. For many years it would appear he was working with her, since the statues in the Deep Roads show him seated on her left (left hand of the Divine maybe?). He enjoyed all the power play at the Orlesian Court and let slip it was something he had been involved in before. Whilst it is possible he started to help runaway slaves with Mythal's blessing before her death, the full rebellion would only seem to have begun later. "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." We still do not know why the others killed Mythal. Was it whatever was shut away that she authorised to keep it from them? Or did he only discover this after her death because whatever magic she had used on it had begun to fail? Solas gave 3 different justifications for his action against the gods: Revenge for the murder of Mythal It freed his People from bondage It saved the World I suspect that the latter two are what he likes to focus on as his justification but initially it was revenge that really drove him and why he didn't stop to consider the possible consequences of the Veil. Strangely enough he is using similar justifications this time round. He claims he is saving his people (from what exactly we don't know) and has now added saving this world (rather than restoring the world of the elves), whilst he did have "plans" for the Evanuris, so his motivations haven't changed much at all really.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 18:19:09 GMT
Oh my gosh, what if it wasn't even like Origins final battle with the arch Demon and you got to break your cast of companions into two groups? So then I could take a support team into the battle against Solas, even if they weren't people Inky personally knew.
I liked what we did in DAO and it worked well enough then. I don't remember anyone complaining that they suddenly switched from our Warden back to their other party at the gates. We also had a similar situation in ME2, when we split the group as we went along and assigned different people to various tasks. Get it right and everyone survives, get it wrong and everyone including Shepard died. To my mind they could definitely do something along these lines with the Inquisitor leading one group and the new PC the other, may be each with their own specific task that needs to be done to foil Solas. To be honest, I think such an approach could be awesome if they put the thought and effort into setting it up right.
I would also add that I got such a buzz when I did it right first run, with no meta-knowledge, just knowing my team and using their abilities appropriately.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2020 18:21:34 GMT
I don’t see it working where the player can choose both characters’s dialogues, so at most they’ll be another ruined NPC for at least most of the time they’re on screen.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2020 18:22:38 GMT
I don’t see it working where the player can choose both characters’s dialogues, so at most they’ll be another ruined NPC for at least most of the time they’re on screen. But Detroit Become Human did it so why can't Bioware?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2020 18:24:09 GMT
I don’t see it working where the player can choose both characters’s dialogues, so at most they’ll be another ruined NPC for at least most of the time they’re on screen. But Detroit Become Human did it so why can't Bioware? Never played that game, but if I recall opinions about it were...mixed. Can you give a good example?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 18:25:51 GMT
I don’t see it working where the player can choose both characters’s dialogues, so at most they’ll be another ruined NPC for at least most of the time they’re on screen. Have you played ME2? Now imagine it with you able to switch between the two groups and each team leader is able to issue their own orders, controlled by you.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2020 18:31:01 GMT
I don’t see it working where the player can choose both characters’s dialogues, so at most they’ll be another ruined NPC for at least most of the time they’re on screen. Have you played ME2? Now imagine it with you able to switch between the two groups and each team leader is able to issue their own orders, controlled by you. I have. With ME2 you never controlled the other team, and also they were predefined characters. So when they talked to Shepard, only one character had you choose the dialogue of.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2020 18:33:09 GMT
But Detroit Become Human did it so why can't Bioware? Never played that game, but if I recall opinions about it were...mixed. Can you give a good example? I thought this was great. OBVIOUS SPOILERS FOR DBH I had really conflicting emotions, because these two characters are literally on different sides during this conversation, so it was hard to espouse (as a player from one moment to the next during timed conversation) the conflicting desires of both characters. But without the time limit and with two characters who have a common enemy, as DA4 protag and Inky will have, then it would be easier to roleplay, and I wouldn't have had in the moment confusion. If connor doesn't go deviant in this scene, he continues to be a sort of villain that you then play. It gets even more conflicting later, because they actively go into battle against each other and you have to finally choose between them. That made the game cool to me, but that sort of thing probably won't come up in DA4, I just mention it extra because that may be why people send mixed things about it. I found it unique, challenging, interesting, genius.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 29, 2020 18:40:39 GMT
But Detroit Become Human did it so why can't Bioware? Never played that game, but if I recall opinions about it were...mixed. Can you give a good example? Spoilers for Detroit:
You play three protagonists and they sometimes conflict. There's a scene where one is on the run from the other and you get to play as both, first as the one running away, then the scene switches to the one chasing and you choose whether he continues the chase or not, whether you make the button prompts and he dies or not. As the other one you also make the button prompts or not and can end her story in that chapter. Or you can avoid everything entirely by steatlhing correctly and her not getting spotted and having no chase at all.
You persuade one of the characters to turn deviant or not, can fail or succeed the persuasion, and also the options available to the persuadee on whether to accept the offer or not are determined by previous choices in the game. (EDIT: talking about the scene Phoray linked)
There's loads of different outcomes available due to player choice and, as the game hits midpoint onwards, you do end up playing both sides of the encounter, sometimes simultaneously.
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Post by Rascoth on Aug 29, 2020 18:47:46 GMT
Uuuuuu, wallpaper
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 18:48:26 GMT
I had really conflicting emotions, because these two characters are literally on different sides during this conversation, so it was hard to espouse (as a player from one moment to the next during timed conversation) the conflicting desires of both characters. But without the time limit and with two characters who have a common enemy, as DA4 protag and Inky will have, then it would be easier to roleplay, and I wouldn't have had in the moment confusion. Watching that I was thinking of a situation where the new PC and the Inquisitor are debating what to do with Solas. Instead of some standard programmed response from Inky based off Trespasser, you actually have a proper argument (assuming you aren't both wanting to do the same). I can see it working though.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Aug 29, 2020 18:48:40 GMT
That sneak peak did nothing to dissuade me from the feeling that it's still going to be a live-service online only nightmare of a game.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2020 18:48:48 GMT
Never played that game, but if I recall opinions about it were...mixed. Can you give a good example? Spoilers for Detroit:
You play three protagonists and they sometimes conflict. There's a scene where one is on the run from the other and you get to play as both, first as the one running away, then the scene switches to the one chasing and you choose whether he continues the chase or not, whether you make the button prompts and he dies or not. As the other one you also make the button prompts or not and can end her story in that chapter. Or you can avoid everything entirely by steatlhing correctly and her not getting spotted and having no chase at all.
You persuade one of the characters to turn deviant or not, can fail or succeed the persuasion, and also the options available to the persuadee on whether to accept the offer or not are determined by previous choices in the game. (EDIT: talking about the scene Phoray linked)
There's loads of different outcomes available due to player choice and, as the game hits midpoint onwards, you do end up playing both sides of the encounter, sometimes simultaneously.
Oh my gosh, great text description. It's such a good game, I love it. if I had my PS4 right now, I'd marathon another playthrough on the spot (runs about 14 hours, so it's good for that. )
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 29, 2020 18:51:42 GMT
Is this a really stylish lady Crow, as some have suggested, or could she be a follower of the Old God Lusacan, the Lady of Shadows? Anyway, I do hope she hasn't been cut whether she is a companion or an antagonist. She looks very, hope she made the cut. I did wonder on the group (companion?) image the woman on the far left appears to have similar hair, shape. Maybe an earlier iteration
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 29, 2020 18:53:28 GMT
I get the impression the slave rebellion he led didn't include acting against Mythal's domain (possibly cus she didn't have slaves, just servants who took her markings willingly?) and she went "plausible deniability" and took a publicly neutral stance on his actions, while helping him secretly(hence the well knowing his pass phrase). He might have been working for her, even as a fellow "god", before that. Being a god does not necessarily mean identical responsibilities or equal status among "the gods". Mythal was still essentially queen of them all, with Elgar'nan being the only one close to her equal. The mosaics of him as a wolf could easily be from when he was just Solas, who happened to be a wolf (or had a wolf form that he preferred). And he only later became "The Dread Wolf" once he'd fallen out of favor with the others. So I don't see the issue there?
We say they're mosaics of the Dread Wolf *now*, and Abelas refers to him as such *now*, b/c that's become his main epithet. For moderns, that's the only name they've ever known that image by. But the statues and mosaics can just be from a time when he wasn't known as that. Or, as far as the more recent Dales architecture, a time when the stories of his good traits might have been more widely remembered. Though that last bit is more of a theory of mine than having been stated outright in the game yet. I've always thought the whole slavery argument for his rebellion was overly simplistic.
I'd lose all respect for them if they tried to say actually its ok for Mythal to have servants with vallaslin under her magical control while trying to say Evanuris doing the same thing are forcing all their servants into slavery.
I think the slavery rebellion might have originally been Mythal's idea. She was goddess of justice after all, and slavery is inherently unjust except as perhaps a punishment for some crimes.
But she was also responsible for the continued existence of the people as a whole, so she had stability to worry about. Freeing the other Evanuris' slaves, therefore weakening them in both manpower and belief points(if that's a thing like Falon'Din's story kinda implies it is), possibly put them in more of a position where they had no choice but to listen to her. Or at least, that could have been her goal in supporting it. And she acted thru a proxy in Solas so that she could be that negotiator once the resisting Evanuris were softened up.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 18:55:13 GMT
I have. With ME2 you never controlled the other team, and also they were predefined characters. So when they talked to Shepard, only one character had you choose the dialogue of. I didn't say do it exactly like ME2. I said think how that went and then IMAGINE it with both team leaders controlled by you. Instead of Shepard at one end of a com link getting feedback from the other team, you switch between teams and whilst focussed on one team, you control the leader of that team, then you switch back to the other team and control the leader of that one. When it comes to the final showdown with Solas, depending on whether your two leaders are of a like mind about how to deal with him, there could be a three way conversation between Solas, Inquisitor and new PC, because I'm pretty sure there would be some dialogue before final battle or whatever follows. Either that or you are simply given the option as to which person you want to take forward to the final part. As Phoray said, a totally new player to the series won't have much investment in the Inquisitor, so they would probably opt for their new PC, but older players can opt for letting the Inquisitor take over from the new PC at this point if they wish.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Oct 26, 2024 17:19:22 GMT
30,306
gervaise21
12,815
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2020 19:03:23 GMT
I think the slavery rebellion might have originally been Mythal's idea. She was goddess of justice after all, and slavery is inherently unjust except as perhaps a punishment for some crimes.
Not every civilisation has seen it that way. Mythal could have been the one who maintained the system from the outset. She might have only been concerned when the slaves were treated unjustly, for example a punishment was carried out without reference to her that was disproportionate to the offence. She simply dispensed justice within the parameters of the laws that the Evanuris had set. However, Flemeth does say to Merrill that the People are too quick to bow the knee, so it is possible that Mythal did start to see the problem with the claim of divinity that they had made for themselves and the willingness of the majority not to question it.
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