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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 1:52:28 GMT
An ESCAPED slave though. No, not even that. You'll have fans raging they would have died before becoming a slave. I hadn't even considered that angle.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 6, 2020 1:55:37 GMT
imagine the rage if the Solas plot was tied off outside of the DA4 basegame and you had to purchase DLC to do it. I don't think they'd go there. Trespasser was a lil different because it wasn't "buy Trespasser to get the true Corypheus denouement" and was like an epilogue plus setup for the next game. I’d say it was more of a “Hey look at this game/character you love and watch us ruin them.” If Solas being carried over to DA5 meant we get to actually be the Inquisitor to wrap up the things they unraveled and threw away, I’m all for it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 2:20:06 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists?
Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 2:27:42 GMT
But that's the thing. I love escalating fiction which starts out small and then gets bigger. The Hobbit started out as 'just' a job and then ended with a mega war between five armies over control of a strategic location...and then technically the fate of all life in ME. In most cases where I have to play a "save the world" story, I would prefer a story that steadily escalates as well. It doesn't appeal to me *in this instance* because I, the player, already know who Solas is and what his ultimate goal is. I'm effectively already spoiled. Any attempt at a slow build up or unravelling a 'mystery' would just bore me. Unless BioWare pulls a massive switcheroo and the story winds up being something incredibly different. Hence why I advocate for immediate removal of the Veil at the very start of the game. Sure, Solas could blaze through town and kill a Lord of Fortune's family or whatever, but the thing is, he can also do that to a slave, or a farmer, or anyone. And beyond that, the party members and any other NPCs who aid us need a good reason for why they accept me bossing them around. In Inquisition we had the excuse of "Only I have the special power to get the job done", and DA4 needs something similar. I don't think merely possessing an artifact or knowing some secret would suffice in this instance, because anyone can take an artifact from you, or potentially learn a secret themselves through other means. There needs to be a really good, solid reason for why a bunch of highly skilled and experienced warriors, spies and wizards have all agreed to be led by me, Bob Fuckwit.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 2:38:34 GMT
An ESCAPED slave though. No, not even that. You'll have fans raging they would have died before becoming a slave. Yeah, but who cares? Lots of people have already bitched extensively in the past that they would "never have joined the Grey Wardens", or "would have stayed in Lothering and fought the Darkspawn instead of running off like some coward". You don't get a say in what happens to the character before you assume control, or what they do after you cede control at the end of the game.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 2:57:12 GMT
But that's the thing. I love escalating fiction which starts out small and then gets bigger. The Hobbit started out as 'just' a job and then ended with a mega war between five armies over control of a strategic location...and then technically the fate of all life in ME. In most cases where I have to play a "save the world" story, I would prefer a story that steadily escalates as well. It doesn't appeal to me *in this instance* because I, the player, already know who Solas is and what his ultimate goal is. I'm effectively already spoiled. Any attempt at a slow build up or unravelling a 'mystery' would just bore me. Unless BioWare pulls a massive switcheroo and the story winds up being something incredibly different. Hence why I advocate for immediate removal of the Veil at the very start of the game. Sure, Solas could blaze through town and kill a Lord of Fortune's family or whatever, but the thing is, he can also do that to a slave, or a farmer, or anyone. And beyond that, the party members and any other NPCs who aid us need a good reason for why they accept me bossing them around. In Inquisition we had the excuse of "Only I have the special power to get the job done", and DA4 needs something similar. I don't think merely possessing an artifact or knowing some secret would suffice in this instance, because anyone can take an artifact from you, or potentially learn a secret themselves through other means. There needs to be a really good, solid reason for why a bunch of highly skilled and experienced warriors, spies and wizards have all agreed to be led by me, Bob Fuckwit. I do counter and say not everyone who plays da 4 will have played Inquisition.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 3:06:46 GMT
In most cases where I have to play a "save the world" story, I would prefer a story that steadily escalates as well. It doesn't appeal to me *in this instance* because I, the player, already know who Solas is and what his ultimate goal is. I'm effectively already spoiled. Any attempt at a slow build up or unravelling a 'mystery' would just bore me. Unless BioWare pulls a massive switcheroo and the story winds up being something incredibly different. Hence why I advocate for immediate removal of the Veil at the very start of the game. Sure, Solas could blaze through town and kill a Lord of Fortune's family or whatever, but the thing is, he can also do that to a slave, or a farmer, or anyone. And beyond that, the party members and any other NPCs who aid us need a good reason for why they accept me bossing them around. In Inquisition we had the excuse of "Only I have the special power to get the job done", and DA4 needs something similar. I don't think merely possessing an artifact or knowing some secret would suffice in this instance, because anyone can take an artifact from you, or potentially learn a secret themselves through other means. There needs to be a really good, solid reason for why a bunch of highly skilled and experienced warriors, spies and wizards have all agreed to be led by me, Bob Fuckwit. I do counter and say not everyone who plays da 4 will have played Inquisition. Well I play my "Then They Shouldn't Be Making A Direct Continuation of the Story" trap card! Muahahahahahaaa!
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Post by phoray on Sept 6, 2020 4:18:49 GMT
I guess I never saw the Slave Origin as being owned by a specific person. I imagined more like, we were captured or were born into a slave pen of a sort, until such time as we could be sold off to work. Nobody wants a 5 year old as a servant, where do they go? Or a scenario where its a group ownership sort of thing. Like a slave fighter in an arena type of deal. We may never actually meet our 'master' in such a scenario (or a few other scenarios). Exactly. Also +1 vote for being already escaped and describing how we felt about it to whomever asks about it. That way, it'll be up to the player if it was nothing but horror or just inconvenient to our personal plans for our own future that we couldn't choose to say, go visit other countries when Mistress wanted me on the grounds taking care of the horses
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Post by tatarforas on Sept 6, 2020 5:00:07 GMT
FEMALE QUNARI COMPANION!!!! LETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I'm already super hyped lmao and looks like one of our companions has a gun!
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 6, 2020 5:29:12 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists? Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube. Gave a like for the DN origin love.
As for the stuff about the city elf origin, though... There's literally nothing wrong with that story*, in 2020 or otherwise. And if you're going to handwring about how something written now will look in Current Year in the future, you may as well never write anything except "They sat in a meadow and stared at rainbows. The end." And even that will offend someone, who decides they want to take offense on behalf of people with iridophobia. (Yes, its a real thing. I checked.)
*Other than it should never happen to anyone in real life, of course. And I find it sad I even feel like I need to put this note, but here we are.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 6, 2020 6:07:34 GMT
FEMALE QUNARI COMPANION!!!! LETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm already super hyped lmao and looks like one of companions has a gun! My John Wick dream build is finally going to be realized!
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 7:02:02 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists? Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube. Gave a like for the DN origin love.
As for the stuff about the city elf origin, though... There's literally nothing wrong with that story*, in 2020 or otherwise. And if you're going to handwring about how something written now will look in Current Year in the future, you may as well never write anything except "They sat in a meadow and stared at rainbows. The end." And even that will offend someone, who decides they want to take offense on behalf of people with iridophobia. (Yes, its a real thing. I checked.)
*Other than it should never happen to anyone in real life, of course. And I find it sad I even feel like I need to put this note, but here we are.
yeah I was reading an article on Ubisoft getting in trouble for a political message so I clicked on it out of curiosity... And then I was like "but that is a common story telling trope" even some basis in reality.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 8:00:49 GMT
Okay, let's slow our roll, there's a HUGE, MASSIVE, UNFATHOMABLE difference between BioWare having players start off in a position of slavery, and Ubisoft co-opting the historic symbols of the Black Power/Black Lives Matter movement for the *villainous terrorist group* of its ridiculous right-wing fever dream of a video game series, itself based on the collected novels of a conservative whackadoo who literally blamed lefties for 9/11.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 8:42:38 GMT
Okay, let's slow our roll, there's a HUGE, MASSIVE, UNFATHOMABLE difference between BioWare having players start off in a position of slavery, and Ubisoft co-opting the historic symbols of the Black Power/Black Lives Matter movement for the *villainous terrorist group* of its ridiculous right-wing fever dream of a video game series, itself based on the collected novels of a conservative whackadoo who literally blamed lefties for 9/11. I see you read the same article.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 8:43:29 GMT
But something more along the lines of Ben-Hassrath? Totally doable.
The thing is if they are not going to be saying, like Bull, hey I'm a spy because I know you're going to find out anyway, a proper Ben'Hassrath agent isn't going to admit it to anyone unless from the outset it is established we are their agent working in the field with, say, the shadow Inquisition. Now that is a possibility because Gatt seemed to regard Varric as an ally but it would mean we would have to start out as working with the shadow Inquisition.
Otherwise, I think the background information would have to make it clear we were working undercover and so we wouldn't be obviously aligned with the Qun because I can't think of any other faction they might be openly working with rather than infiltrating to gain intelligence. Likewise when putting together a group of random heroes for whatever reason, they would not reveal their true allegiance because that is not what good undercover agents do. Which would mean you would actually be no different to playing Tal'Vashoth much of the game until someone called you out on the issue which it was not possible to deny. But that would make the background too specific in a way that others were not in terms of how the plot developed. Also, they couldn't be a mage because that would go against all previous lore. They do not have sarebaas in the Ben'Hassrath.
I definitely think it is more likely we will get a Ben'Hassrath either openly or in secret (more likely) among our companions. Although to a large extent that would then simply be Iron Bull v.2.
I think a Tal'Vashoth on the run from the Qun would be more interesting for the PC; having probably defected during the invasion, and that could be any class including a previously leashed sarebaas. Then they could support aspects of the Qun philosophy but reject others.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 8:48:22 GMT
You know another angle for the protag worth pointing out is the original design for DA4 is that it was going to be centered around spies. And I just realized...there were a lot of spies in TVN.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 9:03:07 GMT
That's interesting. We're going to be the Batman of Thedas. It's a unique idea. We will save Thedas, but no one will know our name.... Solas' real name was forgotten as well Um, but didn't that already happen? How many people will know the real identity of the Herald of Andraste/Inquisitor once the organisation has been disbanded or put under the leadership of the Divine? Who saved the world from Corypheus? The Herald of Andraste. Any statues to them will probably morph over time so they all come to look like a human woman holding a sword aloft, just as they did with the statue to the Champion in Kirkwall. That wasn't so extreme because Hawke is always human but it was clear they had conveniently forgotten if they were a male human mage and clearly the Maker was with them, so it was really Andraste who defeated the Arishok. The thing about the Batman idea is that he does sometimes uses questionable methods and also in one film they had him deliberately accept the mantle of being an outlaw who had been responsible for some of the bad stuff so that the people wouldn't be disillusioned by the revelation of who had really been responsible. (I think I got that right because I only saw the film once and not sure about this). This would then tie in with that comment of Solas because he was someone who (claims) he set out with altruistic motives but was painted a villain by subsequent generations of elves and now he is essentially giving a warning to the other person that the same will happen to them.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 9:06:31 GMT
That's interesting. We're going to be the Batman of Thedas. It's a unique idea. We will save Thedas, but no one will know our name.... Solas' real name was forgotten as well Um, but didn't that already happen? How many people will know the real identity of the Herald of Andraste/Inquisitor once the organisation has been disbanded or put under the leadership of the Divine? Who saved the world from Corypheus? The Herald of Andraste. Any statues to them will probably morph over time so they all come to look like a human woman holding a sword aloft, just as they did with the statue to the Champion in Kirkwall. That wasn't so extreme because Hawke is always human but it was clear they had conveniently forgotten if they were a male human mage and clearly the Maker was with them, so it was really Andraste who defeated the Arishok. The thing about the Batman idea is that he does sometimes uses questionable methods and also in one film they had him deliberately accept the mantle of being an outlaw who had been responsible for some of the bad stuff so that the people wouldn't be disillusioned by the revelation of who had really been responsible. (I think I got that right because I only saw the film once and not sure about this). This would then tie in with that comment of Solas because he was someone who (claims) he set out with altruistic motives but was painted a villain by subsequent generations of elves and now he is essentially giving a warning to the other person that the same will happen to them. your read matches what I've heard from critical analysis. Which now brings me to wanting to play a super hero given Fenris's activities.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 9:06:43 GMT
You know another angle for the protag worth pointing out is the original design for DA4 is that it was going to be centered around spies. And I just realized...there were a lot of spies in TVN. This is why I wondered if the short stories were really some of the plots that were originally intended for DA4 and then dropped or didn't make the cut. Investigating what monster is attacking people on the streets or trying to stop a bunch of cultists is the sort of thing that you'd think would be ideal plotlines for our PC. Of course some of them may still be used again. The Horror of Hormack definitely seemed to be the start of something bigger.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 9:11:08 GMT
You know another angle for the protag worth pointing out is the original design for DA4 is that it was going to be centered around spies. And I just realized...there were a lot of spies in TVN. This is why I wondered if the short stories were really some of the plots that were originally intended for DA4 and then dropped or didn't make the cut. Investigating what monster is attacking people on the streets or trying to stop a bunch of cultists is the sort of thing that you'd think would be ideal plotlines for our PC. Of course some of them may still be used again. The Horror of Hormack definitely seemed to be the start of something bigger. I have wondered the same thing... But a lot of the stories did seem cliff hangery/ the start of something bigger. The crows, what was happening with Sidony...and then any of the Qun war or Solas stuff...or the LoF stuff. Of course this isn't to say the two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 9:19:22 GMT
No, not even that. You'll have fans raging they would have died before becoming a slave. Sold themselves into slavery to prevent their family from starving? That's what happened to Krem's father and it said to be common in Tevinter. Then end up somewhere where they are promptly "liberated" by the Qunari invasion, but manage to escape in the conflict so are now a free agent. The reason I am veering away from the slave background is all those images of Crows and what other people suggest is Antiva City. I'm starting to think we may begin there and then move on across the map westwards. Which is where I have to admit the Lord of Fortune background starts to look more likely. It is likely to be less controversial as well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 9:29:02 GMT
But a lot of the stories did seem cliff hangery/ the start of something bigger. The crows, what was happening with Sidony...and then any of the Qun war or Solas stuff...or the LoF stuff. So long as they don't expect people to have read the books to know what is going on or who some character is. Even though I have, my PC hasn't so I want their introduction to the plot and people involved make sense, particularly the latter. Rather than: I need you to help me with X. Why should I trust you? Because you'll recognise me as that cool character from Tevinter Nights.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 15:05:03 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists? Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube. Gave a like for the DN origin love.
As for the stuff about the city elf origin, though... There's literally nothing wrong with that story*, in 2020 or otherwise. And if you're going to handwring about how something written now will look in Current Year in the future, you may as well never write anything except "They sat in a meadow and stared at rainbows. The end." And even that will offend someone, who decides they want to take offense on behalf of people with iridophobia. (Yes, its a real thing. I checked.)
*Other than it should never happen to anyone in real life, of course. And I find it sad I even feel like I need to put this note, but here we are.
To clarify, I actually don’t have a problem with the slavery story and I really like the city elf origin. I was more commenting on how current views of what’s acceptable have shifted in the past ten years. I agree that you can’t write a story planning for it to be ‘evergreen’ in the eyes of the fans. But it’s interesting to see how something like being a slave as your origin story is being seen by some as unacceptable when ten years ago, there was content that was much more ‘controversial’ yet I don’t remember seeing much pushback on the forums back then. And I was around then.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Solas on Sept 6, 2020 15:32:14 GMT
I would just rather they preemptively hop the inevitable clusterfuck and go with one or some of the other boss ideas people suggest like being a spy or a Lord of Fortune, pirate, Inquisition agent, Soporati or Laetan, have a choice of several factions like Warden, Crow, Ben-Hassrath, whatever
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 6, 2020 16:08:30 GMT
Gave a like for the DN origin love.
As for the stuff about the city elf origin, though... There's literally nothing wrong with that story*, in 2020 or otherwise. And if you're going to handwring about how something written now will look in Current Year in the future, you may as well never write anything except "They sat in a meadow and stared at rainbows. The end." And even that will offend someone, who decides they want to take offense on behalf of people with iridophobia. (Yes, its a real thing. I checked.)
*Other than it should never happen to anyone in real life, of course. And I find it sad I even feel like I need to put this note, but here we are.
To clarify, I actually don’t have a problem with the slavery story and I really like the city elf origin. I was more commenting on how current views of what’s acceptable have shifted in the past ten years. I agree that you can’t write a story planning for it to be ‘evergreen’ in the eyes of the fans. But it’s interesting to see how something like being a slave as your origin story is being seen by some as unacceptable when ten years ago, there was content that was much more ‘controversial’ yet I don’t remember seeing much pushback on the forums back then. And I was around then. I think it’s less about acceptability and more about not wanting to ambush players with something that could derail their fun. For players with certain life experiences, the city elf origin could do that. Personally, I don’t think that means avoiding those topics, but rather signposting them. I could imagine a future DA having an option to flag certain content. To use a lighter example, maybe someone has really intense arachnophobia. They check an “arachnophobia” box in settings. Rather than removing spiders from the game, the setting adds a “[spiders]” warning to doors, dialogue options, and fast travels that could lead to spiders. People who didn’t check the box would get no warning (so no spoilers), but for people who really don’t want to be surprised by spiders, they’ll have options for how to deal with it. Maybe they avoid dialogue/sidequests that lead to spiders. Maybe they deliberately choose paths that will lead to spiders, because killing spiders makes them feel powerful. Maybe they just take a moment to psych themselves up before the spiders appear, or choose to play in the daytime instead of at night. But whatever they choose, they get to feel in control about the situation, and they don’t have to spend the entire game worrying about surprise spiders. Over time, it can even lessen their phobia, because their brain stops associating “spiders = helplessness” and starts replacing that with “spiders = I’m in control”. Now substitute any potentially hairy topics for “spiders”, and the same idea could work. Not avoiding them or removing them, but flagging them.
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