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Post by Iakus on Sept 6, 2020 17:43:02 GMT
To clarify, I actually don’t have a problem with the slavery story and I really like the city elf origin. I was more commenting on how current views of what’s acceptable have shifted in the past ten years. I agree that you can’t write a story planning for it to be ‘evergreen’ in the eyes of the fans. But it’s interesting to see how something like being a slave as your origin story is being seen by some as unacceptable when ten years ago, there was content that was much more ‘controversial’ yet I don’t remember seeing much pushback on the forums back then. And I was around then. I think it’s less about acceptability and more about not wanting to ambush players with something that could derail their fun. For players with certain life experiences, the city elf origin could do that. Personally, I don’t think that means avoiding those topics, but rather signposting them. I could imagine a future DA having an option to flag certain content. To use a lighter example, maybe someone has really intense arachnophobia. They check an “arachnophobia” box in settings. Rather than removing spiders from the game, the setting adds a “[spiders]” warning to doors, dialogue options, and fast travels that could lead to spiders. People who didn’t check the box would get no warning (so no spoilers), but for people who really don’t want to be surprised by spiders, they’ll have options for how to deal with it. Maybe they avoid dialogue/sidequests that lead to spiders. Maybe they deliberately choose paths that will lead to spiders, because killing spiders makes them feel powerful. Maybe they just take a moment to psych themselves up before the spiders appear, or choose to play in the daytime instead of at night. But whatever they choose, they get to feel in control about the situation, and they don’t have to spend the entire game worrying about surprise spiders. Over time, it can even lessen their phobia, because their brain stops associating “spiders = helplessness” and starts replacing that with “spiders = I’m in control”. Now substitute any potentially hairy topics for “spiders”, and the same idea could work. Not avoiding them or removing them, but flagging them. Sounds suspiciously like the "gay toggle" imo...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 6, 2020 17:45:05 GMT
You know another angle for the protag worth pointing out is the original design for DA4 is that it was going to be centered around spies. And I just realized...there were a lot of spies in TVN. As someone who absolutely LOVES Alpha Protocol, I find it a tragedy that this design got scrapped.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 6, 2020 17:53:28 GMT
Sounds suspiciously like the "gay toggle" imo... Sounds like a "toggle" to me. I don't expect BioWare to ever countenance a "gay toggle" and rightly so. I'll never forget the look on Cameron Lee's face when a Russian journalist asked for a "gay toggle" in DAI. The answer was polite, but it was 'no'.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 6, 2020 18:28:51 GMT
idk, isn't this sort of thing what game ratings are for? DA games are rated M for mature. I guess I could see them adding even another warning on the box somewhere next to it or something but any type of toggle would be too much work and frankly kind of silly.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 6, 2020 18:31:40 GMT
any type of toggle would be too much work and frankly kind of silly More or less than the combat/dialogue toggles of ME3?
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 6, 2020 19:03:22 GMT
any type of toggle would be too much work and frankly kind of silly More or less than the combat/dialogue toggles of ME3? idk I don't remember much of ME3 honestly, just the horrible ending burned into my brain, but if I had to guess then it would probably be even more work. If we took into consideration all the unsettling situations in a mature game that could potentially upset a player and Bioware then had to make a toggle for those situations throughout the entire game, a feature that most might not use? Rape scenarios, children dying, slavery, spiders, probably a bunch of situations I'm not even thinking of right now etc. I guess I don't see the point as it's a mature game and there are already warnings on the boxes. However if Bioware really wants to and they could pull it off while still making a great game, I guess wouldn't care if there was a toggle either.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 19:10:15 GMT
You know another angle for the protag worth pointing out is the original design for DA4 is that it was going to be centered around spies. And I just realized...there were a lot of spies in TVN. As someone who absolutely LOVES Alpha Protocol, I find it a tragedy that this design got scrapped. I mean I hate to sound like a broken record here but we don't know that it was: - all the organizations which could be considered clandestine from the trailer. - all the spy stuff going on in TVN. - heck even a LoF could be played as a spy. All this points to being a spy or acts of espionage or shadow wars as being a big part of the plot to DA 4.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 19:26:34 GMT
All this points to being a spy or acts of espionage or shadow wars as being a big part of the plot to DA 4. I agree with you it definitely would seem that way, particularly after seeing some of the concept art. My only concern was why, if that was the case, certain stories that appeared in TVN didn't get used in the game instead. So long as there are still sufficient acts to do in the game that are as interesting as they ones in the book, then that's great. I suppose I'm still mindful of the fact that several of the War Table Missions looked as though they would have been far more fun than running around collecting elf root or recovering someone's stray druffalo, being attacked by a succession of bears, or bandits, or spiders depending on the location and picking up numerous bottles, which I would happily have ignored by for the golden rings constantly drawing my attention to them. However, I have to admit that many of those undercover missions in TVN were covered by people acting solo or with one other partner, before bringing in back up near the end on the more tricky ones. Since we hope to be following the usual format of a party based game, it may be that these were ideas people had but were dropped early on because they didn't really fit a party working together.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 6, 2020 19:33:33 GMT
As someone who absolutely LOVES Alpha Protocol, I find it a tragedy that this design got scrapped. I mean I hate to sound like a broken record here but we don't know that it was: - all the organizations which could be considered clandestine from the trailer. - all the spy stuff going on in TVN. - heck even a LoF could be played as a spy. All this points to being a spy or acts of espionage or shadow wars as being a big part of the plot to DA 4. If only there was already a group of people established to do that, being led by a character already deeply connected to the plot.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 19:47:39 GMT
All this points to being a spy or acts of espionage or shadow wars as being a big part of the plot to DA 4. I agree with you it definitely would seem that way, particularly after seeing some of the concept art. My only concern was why, if that was the case, certain stories that appeared in TVN didn't get used in the game instead. So long as there are still sufficient acts to do in the game that are as interesting as they ones in the book, then that's great. I suppose I'm still mindful of the fact that several of the War Table Missions looked as though they would have been far more fun than running around collecting elf root or recovering someone's stray druffalo, being attacked by a succession of bears, or bandits, or spiders depending on the location and picking up numerous bottles, which I would happily have ignored by for the golden rings constantly drawing my attention to them. However, I have to admit that many of those undercover missions in TVN were covered by people acting solo or with one other partner, before bringing in back up near the end on the more tricky ones. Since we hope to be following the usual format of a party based game, it may be that these were ideas people had but were dropped early on because they didn't really fit a party working together. yeah. Honestly I think you are right about TVN and the cutting room floor...but I a lot of TVN had that feel of set up to it. Tone, plot, events, maybe even characters. Now we'll see how this works in game. I mean I hate to sound like a broken record here but we don't know that it was: - all the organizations which could be considered clandestine from the trailer. - all the spy stuff going on in TVN. - heck even a LoF could be played as a spy. All this points to being a spy or acts of espionage or shadow wars as being a big part of the plot to DA 4. If only there was already a group of people established to do that, being led by a character already deeply connected to the plot. I've already addressed this. The 'shadow Inquisition' is (imo) a perfect organization for a background for the protag. Even the Inquisitor would have to be operating under cover in the Imperium given how they feel about her up there. Bonus points since she once had power, but lost it.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 6, 2020 19:55:20 GMT
More or less than the combat/dialogue toggles of ME3? idk I don't remember much of ME3 honestly, just the horrible ending burned into my brain, but if I had to guess then it would probably be even more work. If we took into consideration all the unsettling situations in a mature game that could potentially upset a player and Bioware then had to make a toggle for those situations throughout the entire game, a feature that most might not use? Rape scenarios, children dying, slavery, spiders, probably a bunch of situations I'm not even thinking of right now etc. I guess I don't see the point as it's a mature game and there are already warnings on the boxes. However if Bioware really wants to and they could pull it off while still making a great game, I guess wouldn't care if there was a toggle either. Mature, not mature all that matters is that Bioware not only tells the story they want but also executes it well.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 6, 2020 21:18:57 GMT
Sounds suspiciously like the "gay toggle" imo... Sounds like a "toggle" to me. I don't expect BioWare to ever countenance a "gay toggle" and rightly so. I'll never forget the look on Cameron Lee's face when a Russian journalist asked for a "gay toggle" in DAI. The answer was polite, but it was 'no'. I think any kind of toggle in the game is just becomes a slippery slope of what people would want BioWare to start to go to. Even using the previous persons post. First a warning for arachnophobia, then people who have claustrophobia would want to be warned if a room triggers their phobia, then you might have people that have agoraphobia who would want to play the game without any outside locations. Going by what I have seen over the years that is what I would expect if a company started to make accommodations with a toggle for anything.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 21:47:39 GMT
Sounds like a "toggle" to me. I don't expect BioWare to ever countenance a "gay toggle" and rightly so. I'll never forget the look on Cameron Lee's face when a Russian journalist asked for a "gay toggle" in DAI. The answer was polite, but it was 'no'. I think any kind of toggle in the game is just becomes a slippery slope of what people would want BioWare to start to go to. Even using the previous persons post. First a warning for arachnophobia, then people who have claustrophobia would want to be warned if a room triggers their phobia, then you might have people that have agoraphobia who would want to play the game without any outside locations. Going by what I have seen over the years that is what I would expect if a company started to make accommodations with a toggle for anything. that's what mods are for.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 22:26:44 GMT
Oh god, here we go again with the baseless fear-mongering: "If they do a toggle for spiders, they'll have to do a toggle that turns all the combat into a hugging minigame!"
If only this forum had a toggle for intellectually dishonest concern trolling.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 22:33:13 GMT
Oh god, here we go again with the baseless fear-mongering: "If they do a toggle for spiders, they'll have to do a toggle that turns all the combat into a hugging minigame!" If only this forum had a toggle for intellectually dishonest concern trolling. I know slippery slope is a logical fallacy. But do we really want 'toggles' of any sort?
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Post by General Mahad on Sept 6, 2020 22:47:09 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists?Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube. Hence why it’s interesting and even timeless because that’s what all societies went through in history or are going through now. But I do agree that 2020 BioWare doesn’t have the nerve, grit nor balls to try that.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 22:48:52 GMT
Interesting to see the slave conversation. I spent a few hours today replaying some of the DA:O origin quests. I forgot how brutal they were. I mean, the city elf story is ROUGH with a 2020 lens. Racial oppression. Sexual assault. Corrupt guards in the pocket of the wealthy. It remains one of my favorite questlines despite all of this. But I can’t imagine that 2020 BioWare could away with that. I mean, if we are saying that they couldn’t get away with even having the PC be an escaped slave, how could they get away with the PC’s wedding party being slaughtered, the PC being kidnapped and their cousin being sexually assaulted by racists?Sidenote: The Dwarf Noble origin is my favorite (naturally) and is has me desperately hoping to see some cut throat political intrigue. I will always be grateful to Lady Helmi for making sure that Lord Dace didn’t play me like a rube. Hence why it’s interesting and even timeless because that’s what all societies went through in history or are going through now. But I do agree that 2020 BioWare doesn’t have the nerve, grit nor balls to try that. when has bioware shown a reluctance to tackle deep issues?
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Post by Frost on Sept 6, 2020 22:49:39 GMT
I've already addressed this. The 'shadow Inquisition' is (imo) a perfect organization for a background for the protag. Even the Inquisitor would have to be operating under cover in the Imperium given how they feel about her up there. Bonus points since she once had power, but lost it. It would be great if we could chose to play as the Inquisitor or make a new character like in Awakening.
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Post by General Mahad on Sept 6, 2020 22:50:55 GMT
Hence why it’s interesting and even timeless because that’s what all societies went through in history or are going through now. But I do agree that 2020 BioWare doesn’t have the nerve, grit nor balls to try that. when has bioware shown a reluctance to tackle deep issues? When has BioWare shown the ability to tackle those issues well?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 22:51:07 GMT
Oh god, here we go again with the baseless fear-mongering: "If they do a toggle for spiders, they'll have to do a toggle that turns all the combat into a hugging minigame!" If only this forum had a toggle for intellectually dishonest concern trolling. I know slippery slope is a logical fallacy. But do we really want 'toggles' of any sort? I would quite like to keep the helmet toggle, yes. I don't really care about toggles for anything else and probably wouldn't use them if they existed. I'm just sick of people on here fearmongering that any sign of compassion from BioWare to XYZ group of people will inevitably turn the whole game into Sarcastaball. Should every single phobia be catered to? That's no point even asking that, because it's not possible. Some people are just gonna have to suck it up or not play the game at all. But my personal view on giant spiders specifically is that they're overdone and lazy and BioWare should stop putting them in their games to begin with.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 6, 2020 22:53:00 GMT
More or less than the combat/dialogue toggles of ME3? idk I don't remember much of ME3 honestly, just the horrible ending burned into my brain, but if I had to guess then it would probably be even more work. If we took into consideration all the unsettling situations in a mature game that could potentially upset a player and Bioware then had to make a toggle for those situations throughout the entire game, a feature that most might not use? Rape scenarios, children dying, slavery, spiders, probably a bunch of situations I'm not even thinking of right now etc. I guess I don't see the point as it's a mature game and there are already warnings on the boxes. However if Bioware really wants to and they could pull it off while still making a great game, I guess wouldn't care if there was a toggle either. Also, it takes all of those options out of the main scenario that's required to complete the game, since people can't logically skip that. So even a toggle situation would still impact and limit the writing of the non-toggled portions.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 6, 2020 23:00:50 GMT
Oh god, here we go again with the baseless fear-mongering: "If they do a toggle for spiders, they'll have to do a toggle that turns all the combat into a hugging minigame!" If only this forum had a toggle for intellectually dishonest concern trolling. Never did I say anywhere it would be added to the game, but that would start an avalanche of people wanting toggles for all their own personal tastes and hangups because somehow BioWare owes them that since they put some type of toggle into the game. Never did I say "they will have to" what I said is "people will want".
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 23:00:52 GMT
when has bioware shown a reluctance to tackle deep issues? When has BioWare shown the ability to tackle those issues well? MET, and Dragon Age. Andromeda is a bit more murkier for me but I wouldn't call them gun shy. And Anthem is a bit arcadey so not sure it counts. The point is the last DA game was perfectly mature and perfectly capable of tackling heavy issues in a responsible, clear, and engaging manner. And if anything I expect MORE from bio in this regard and not less.
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Post by General Mahad on Sept 6, 2020 23:03:38 GMT
Seriously...are we arguing about including or not including slavery?
Thedas IS built on slavery be it Elven, Human, Dwarf, or Mage. It has shaped the personality and actions of major characters.
Slavery or Rebellion to it is what kicked off everything from Solas Rebellion to the Mage-Templar war.
Tevinter is the capital of the early and modern slave trade of Thedas.
Slavery is going to be explored more deeply in this game.
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Post by General Mahad on Sept 6, 2020 23:08:24 GMT
When has BioWare shown the ability to tackle those issues well? MET, and Dragon Age. Andromeda is a bit more murkier for me but I wouldn't call them gun shy. And Anthem is a bit arcadey so not sure it counts. The point is the last DA game was perfectly mature and perfectly capable of tackling heavy issues in a responsible, clear, and engaging manner. And if anything I expect MORE from bio in this regard and not less. I will grant you Inquisition, especially Trespasser. They handled their subject matter really well. ME3 was a major step back for me personally compared to ME2 and especially ME1. Anthem and Andromeda felt very...wish-washy.
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