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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 23:08:37 GMT
I've already addressed this. The 'shadow Inquisition' is (imo) a perfect organization for a background for the protag. Even the Inquisitor would have to be operating under cover in the Imperium given how they feel about her up there. Bonus points since she once had power, but lost it. It would be great if we could chose to play as the Inquisitor or make a new character like in Awakening. It would be realllly hard to do but that would be an interesting solution.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 23:08:40 GMT
HOOOOOOOOOW COULD BIIIIOWAAAAAARE POOOOOOOOSSIBLY GET AWAAAAAAAY WITH HAVING SLAAAAAAUGHTEEEER AND RAAAAAAPE IN THEIR GAAAAAAAAAME?!?!?!
Well gee, I dunno, those things have only been a staple feature of every single prestige television show for the last NINE YEARS.
Glad to see delusions of persecution by the imaginary radical left are still going strong in 2020.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 23:11:00 GMT
MET, and Dragon Age. Andromeda is a bit more murkier for me but I wouldn't call them gun shy. And Anthem is a bit arcadey so not sure it counts. The point is the last DA game was perfectly mature and perfectly capable of tackling heavy issues in a responsible, clear, and engaging manner. And if anything I expect MORE from bio in this regard and not less. I will grant you Inquisition, especially Trespasser. They handled their subject matter really well. ME3 was a major step back for me personally compared to ME2 and especially ME1. Anthem and Andromeda felt very...wish-washy. Meh my initial thought o this was to type 'touche' in regards to ME 3 but you still had some pretty weighty choices in regards to both the Genophage and the Quarian/ Geth conflict...especialy if you had 'messed up' things in the previous games of the series....or even during ME 3 itself for that matter. Sure it might be a step back, especially in regards to TIM going from being an interesting complext human supremacist to just 'muhaahahaha' in ME 3...but it still had its moments.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 23:13:17 GMT
HOOOOOOOOOW COULD BIIIIOWAAAAAARE POOOOOOOOSSIBLY GET AWAAAAAAAY WITH HAVING SLAAAAAAUGHTEEEER AND RAAAAAAPE IN THEIR GAAAAAAAAAME?!?!?! Well gee, I dunno, those things have only been a staple feature of every single prestige television show for the last NINE YEARS. Glad to see delusions of persecution by the imaginary radical left are still going strong in 2020. With respect aren't you the one who does not want them to touch slavery as an issue because, in part, you feel like that adding nuance and complications to it is a bad thing? Aren't you also the one who really disliked how they handled Dorian's quest line in DAI in a previous conversation we have because...well really the same issue? (Also thinking that somehow BioWare was taing away your choices).
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Post by samurailink on Sept 6, 2020 23:23:37 GMT
I’m hoping it won’t be something like this, because it would mean qunari PCs are likely to be Tal-Vashoth again. At some point I want to play a Qunari qunari. Would that even be possible from a roleplay (and gameplay) perspective? Like genuinely, how do you think that'd work? So I've thought about this before and I think it would be a hilarious way to bring back Mass Effect 3's action mode. If you pick a Qunari Protagonist the game removes dialogue options and choices and you just play the RPG combat. Your protagonist still talks and participates in the story but by the demands of the Qun, not the players choices.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 23:23:53 GMT
HOOOOOOOOOW COULD BIIIIOWAAAAAARE POOOOOOOOSSIBLY GET AWAAAAAAAY WITH HAVING SLAAAAAAUGHTEEEER AND RAAAAAAPE IN THEIR GAAAAAAAAAME?!?!?! Well gee, I dunno, those things have only been a staple feature of every single prestige television show for the last NINE YEARS. Glad to see delusions of persecution by the imaginary radical left are still going strong in 2020. With respect aren't you the one who does not want them to touch slavery as an issue because, in part, you feel like that adding nuance and complications to it is a bad thing? Aren't you also the one who really disliked how they handled Dorian's quest line in DAI in a previous conversation we have because...well really the same issue? (Also thinking that somehow BioWare was taing away your choices). I have literally said multiple times that the PC should start as a slave. When people on here say "nuance and complication", what it turns out they always actually mean is that they want the game to provide excuses and rationalisations for perpetuating abuses, usually against the in-game minorities. I don't oppose ACTUAL nuances and complexities. I oppose the notion that BioWare should attempt to justify slavery or allow the PC to own slaves. You're all scratching your heads over how DA:O managed to "get away" with including rape in the City Elf origin? Here's your answer: THEY DIDN'T TRY TO SAY THAT RAPE ISN'T BAD.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 23:36:19 GMT
With respect aren't you the one who does not want them to touch slavery as an issue because, in part, you feel like that adding nuance and complications to it is a bad thing? Aren't you also the one who really disliked how they handled Dorian's quest line in DAI in a previous conversation we have because...well really the same issue? (Also thinking that somehow BioWare was taing away your choices). I have literally said multiple times that the PC should start as a slave. When people on here say "nuance and complication", what it turns out they always actually mean is that they want the game to provide excuses and rationalisations for perpetuating abuses, usually against the in-game minorities. I don't oppose ACTUAL nuances and complexities. I oppose the notion that BioWare should attempt to justify slavery or allow the PC to own slaves. You're all scratching your heads over how DA:O managed to "get away" with including rape in the City Elf origin? Here's your answer: THEY DIDN'T TRY TO SAY THAT RAPE ISN'T BAD. Thanks for the correction. Still this does bring mind two things. 1. In the manner of an RPG people seem to be of the opinion that the game company should allow the player the greatest amount of freedom possible. In DA 2, for instance, we were actually allowed to own a slave. Now I am a bit dubious of this logic myself and just because a company does not let the PC be a straight up evil arse does not mean that they are really taking choices away either... but it is a main school of thought that I have observed in some circles. 2. When it comes to nuance and complexity...my observation of real life is that life is complicated. Good people can believe bad things or even do bad things or come to the wrong conclusion because of fear, ignorance, or desperation...or really any factor under the sun. Why shouldn't this be true of games? I consider Dorian to be a 'good person' but yet because of his upbringing and his cultural bias he considered slavery to be 'not that bad'. I consider Mother Giselle to be a good person...yet because of her bias and fear of Dorian's upbringing, his influence, and his temperment that he would be a negative influence...or had some secret agenda. I consider Cassandra to be a good person...yet she has tunnel vision and a very pro Andrastian bias. The point is though that these characters can all overcome their issues in varying ways when they are given evidence to change, Dorian's exposure to the south changes his views, Giselle says she owes Dorian an apology, and Cass is not one to reject truth when it is staring her in the face. And thus real life is mirrored because there is a lot of opinions from a lot of people on slavery...I think the institution, it is abhorrent, by all the stuff we have seen in their franchises BioWare agrees...but that does not mean you can't have good people believing bad things or saying stupid crap. Nor should we confuse what these characters say as some sort of carteblanche approaval on the part of Bio.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 6, 2020 23:40:14 GMT
Would that even be possible from a roleplay (and gameplay) perspective? Like genuinely, how do you think that'd work? So I've thought about this before and I think it would be a hilarious way to bring back Mass Effect 3's action mode. If you pick a Qunari Protagonist the game removes dialogue options and choices and you just play the RPG combat. Your protagonist still talks and participates in the story but by the demands of the Qun, not the players choices. So just a regular fantasy action game, then.
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Post by samurailink on Sept 7, 2020 0:03:38 GMT
So I've thought about this before and I think it would be a hilarious way to bring back Mass Effect 3's action mode. If you pick a Qunari Protagonist the game removes dialogue options and choices and you just play the RPG combat. Your protagonist still talks and participates in the story but by the demands of the Qun, not the players choices. So just a regular fantasy action game, then. Yeah, if you're a Qunari Warrior you should be a ripped shirtless Barbarian type who does what he's told, follows the Qun and doesn't question it. Players who want their Qunari to have personal freedom would choose Tal-Vashoth or Vashoth. Kinda like how most of the Qunari we've seen leave the Qun want personal freedom.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 7, 2020 1:28:52 GMT
Seriously...are we arguing about including or not including slavery? Thedas IS built on slavery be it Elven, Human, Dwarf, or Mage. It has shaped the personality and actions of major characters. Slavery or Rebellion to it is what kicked off everything from Solas Rebellion to the Mage-Templar war. Tevinter is the capital of the early and modern slave trade of Thedas. Slavery is going to be explored more deeply in this game. No, it's not about whether to include slavery in the game, but whether it's a good idea to make the PC a slave. There's a difference in how people are going to view what happens to NPCs vs. what happens to their PC themselves. For example, I see the City Elf Origin brought up as an example of the dark places BW has gone, but the PCs themselves are protected. Now imagine if Shianni & the PC's roles were reversed. Care has to be taken when you strip away all the PC's agency and power. There's no question slavery is going be explored in DA4, but making the PC themselves a slave is going to be a contentious issue regardless of they handle it. I don't see BW wanting to get embroiled in that when there are many other avenues they could go.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 7, 2020 1:33:08 GMT
Seriously...are we arguing about including or not including slavery? Thedas IS built on slavery be it Elven, Human, Dwarf, or Mage. It has shaped the personality and actions of major characters. Slavery or Rebellion to it is what kicked off everything from Solas Rebellion to the Mage-Templar war. Tevinter is the capital of the early and modern slave trade of Thedas. Slavery is going to be explored more deeply in this game. No, it's not about whether to include slavery in the game, but whether it's a good idea to make the PC a slave. There's a difference in how people are going to view what happens to NPCs vs. what happens to their PC themselves. For example, I see the City Elf Origin brought up as an example of the dark places BW has gone, but the PCs themselves are protected. Now imagine if Shianni & the PC's roles were reversed. Care has to be taken when you strip away all the PC's agency and power. There's no question slavery is going be explored in DA4, but making the PC themselves a slave is going to be a contentious issue regardless of they handle it. I don't see BW wanting to get embroiled in that when there are many other avenues they could go. On the other hand though one of the most brilliant sections in a video game I have ever seen was when, during the Imperial Agent Storyline in TOR, they basically brainwashed the PC and had you continue to play on with them. We should have more of that kind of thing, though obviously we eventually break the spell.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 1:40:21 GMT
Care has to be taken when you strip away all the PC's agency and power. PCs do not have any power or agency to begin with. It is given to them at the start of gameplay, when the player assumes control. Yeah, sure, some weirdos on here WOULD get upset, because they want to dictate every aspect of the PCs life from birth onwards, despite the fact that BioWare has never allowed that and likely never will. It is not remotely reasonable to get upset about something that happened to your character *before you even knew they existed*. "Doesn't line up with my personal, insanely detailed headcanon" is not a legitimate grievance.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 7, 2020 1:43:52 GMT
Care has to be taken when you strip away all the PC's agency and power. PCs do not have any power or agency to begin with. It is given to them at the start of gameplay, when the player assumes control. Yeah, sure, some weirdos on here WOULD get upset, because they want to dictate every aspect of the PCs life from birth onwards, despite the fact that BioWare has never allowed that and likely never will. It is not remotely reasonable to get upset about something that happened to your character *before you even knew they existed*. "Doesn't line up with my personal, insanely detailed headcanon" is not a legitimate grievance. Not to mention after you stop being able to play as them either.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 1:55:43 GMT
PCs do not have any power or agency to begin with. It is given to them at the start of gameplay, when the player assumes control. Yeah, sure, some weirdos on here WOULD get upset, because they want to dictate every aspect of the PCs life from birth onwards, despite the fact that BioWare has never allowed that and likely never will. It is not remotely reasonable to get upset about something that happened to your character *before you even knew they existed*. "Doesn't line up with my personal, insanely detailed headcanon" is not a legitimate grievance. Not to mention after you stop being able to play as them either. "MY Lavellan and Solas are living in a pastoral idyll with three children (two girls and a boy), where we tend a herd of pure golden Halla, and every night I let him go ATM on me, AND BIOWARE NEEDS TO RESPECT THAT!"
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 2:33:28 GMT
idk, isn't this sort of thing what game ratings are for? DA games are rated M for mature. I guess I could see them adding even another warning on the box somewhere next to it or something but any type of toggle would be too much work and frankly kind of silly. The idea I was suggesting wasn’t a toggle, but a warning when something’s about to come up. So it wouldn’t change the actual content, it would just flag when it’s getting close. Could be as simple as extra text, like how romance options sometimes have that “[starts a romance]” note added to the end. I’ve seen some TV shows do this successfully. Rather than relying on the broad “violence”/“alcohol use” type ratings, they’ll put in more detailed warnings (+ specific timestamps) when something’s about to come up in an episode. With more generic warnings, people have to assume they could stumble into it at any time — “close” warnings mean they can relax for more of the episode/game. For example, if a game or show warns of “pet death” without a timestamp, a watcher/player who’s just put down their pet might feel on edge every time they see a dog. Add a timestamp, and they only have to be tense once. But one slight problem with timestamped warnings is that they can be spoilery. This is an aspect where games could do better than shows, because they could selectively hide/show warnings based on what people have indicated they want to be warned about. For example, I’m not arachnophobic, so I wouldn’t get “[spiders]” warnings when spiders are about to appear. But either way, the spiders would still show up, so as far as encounters/cutscenes/etc, the content would be identical. To my understanding, the people who push for toggles are pushing for content to be outright removable. And yeah, I completely agree that that idea is unworkable... not to mention, usually entangled with weird fundie morality policing. Flagging would do the opposite — rather than removing content, it frees writers and players to explore more tough topics. Without it, players might get scared away from the whole game, because they never know when the (metaphorical) “spiders” might jump out.
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Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 7, 2020 2:46:40 GMT
Not to mention after you stop being able to play as them either. "MY Lavellan and Solas are living in a pastoral idyll with three children (two girls and a boy), where we tend a herd of pure golden Halla, and every night I let him go ATM on me, AND BIOWARE NEEDS TO RESPECT TH Rainbow halla are the best halla. #triggered Also, Solar is currently exploring strange new worlds with Picard and Yoda. Get it right.
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 7, 2020 3:43:25 GMT
Do you all put mint sauce on your halla or more traditional cranberry sauce or apple sauce?
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 7:24:18 GMT
I don’t mind starting out as a slave. My only condition however is that I get to brutally murder the master, and perhaps his whole family. I don’t think it’s unreasonable.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 7, 2020 7:41:47 GMT
that's what mods are for. Except on console of course (I haven't owned a PC in a decade and a half). I think the biggest issue with toggles is that they create more complexity and more room to break the game. I think game makers should be allowed to tell their story their way without too much entitled 'but I wanted the game to be like that...' 😊
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 7, 2020 8:00:28 GMT
The toggle/trigger warning discussion is the most ludicrous thing I've read all week. The fact that such a discussion even arises in 2020 is sad and deeply disturbing.
Humanity is not gonna make it...
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blep mlem mlem
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Solas on Sept 7, 2020 11:31:27 GMT
several different discussion threads happening at once here. didn't read Hrungr's post as pertaining to people wanting to dictate every aspect of the PC's backstory or getting upset when their highly detailed and elaborate headcanons are not 'respected'. I don't think that's what he was saying
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 12:21:44 GMT
Humanity is not gonna make it... How so? I agree toggles are silly, but content warnings are already a well-established part of games. Games aren’t just generically rated M, they’re rated M for specific things like “violence” or “gore”. Part of the reason that exists is for parents, but part of that is for the players themselves — for example, a recovering alcoholic might be taking a break on games rated for “alcohol use”. If warnings were more local to specific times/places in the game, someone who would have otherwise avoided the whole game might decide to play it. And of course, I think that part should be toggle-able, so not everyone sees every warning. But the content itself should remain the same regardless of setting, with no cuts or alterations. Obviously the spider example is a bit on the lighter side, but I was trying to avoid getting too heavy in my examples.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 7, 2020 13:10:24 GMT
for example, a recovering alcoholic might be taking a break on games rated for “alcohol use”. It might have been helpful on that one if there was an alternative form of entertainment in Skyhold than simply a tavern, Iron Bull didn't get all hurt if you won't share a drink with him, with no option of apple juice instead and there wasn't a major collection of alcoholic bottles that they even highlighted. So I tend to feel that they should just proceed as always and you just have to cope with the things that make you uncomfortable.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 13:26:37 GMT
idk, isn't this sort of thing what game ratings are for? DA games are rated M for mature. I guess I could see them adding even another warning on the box somewhere next to it or something but any type of toggle would be too much work and frankly kind of silly. The idea I was suggesting wasn’t a toggle, but a warning when something’s about to come up. So it wouldn’t change the actual content, it would just flag when it’s getting close. Could be as simple as extra text, like how romance options sometimes have that “[starts a romance]” note added to the end. I’ve seen some TV shows do this successfully. Rather than relying on the broad “violence”/“alcohol use” type ratings, they’ll put in more detailed warnings (+ specific timestamps) when something’s about to come up in an episode. With more generic warnings, people have to assume they could stumble into it at any time — “close” warnings mean they can relax for more of the episode/game. For example, if a game or show warns of “pet death” without a timestamp, a watcher/player who’s just put down their pet might feel on edge every time they see a dog. Add a timestamp, and they only have to be tense once. But one slight problem with timestamped warnings is that they can be spoilery. This is an aspect where games could do better than shows, because they could selectively hide/show warnings based on what people have indicated they want to be warned about. For example, I’m not arachnophobic, so I wouldn’t get “[spiders]” warnings when spiders are about to appear. But either way, the spiders would still show up, so as far as encounters/cutscenes/etc, the content would be identical. To my understanding, the people who push for toggles are pushing for content to be outright removable. And yeah, I completely agree that that idea is unworkable... not to mention, usually entangled with weird fundie morality policing. Flagging would do the opposite — rather than removing content, it frees writers and players to explore more tough topics. Without it, players might get scared away from the whole game, because they never know when the (metaphorical) “spiders” might jump out. Maybe it’s the callous asshole in me, but I think those people should just suck up and deal with whatever the media’s gonna give them based on its overall rating that they’re made aware of at the start. Their natural reflex to recoil in horror and turn off their TV’s will save them from any irreparable mental scarring.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 13:26:54 GMT
for example, a recovering alcoholic might be taking a break on games rated for “alcohol use”. It might have been helpful on that one if there was an alternative form of entertainment in Skyhold than simply a tavern, Iron Bull didn't get all hurt if you won't share a drink with him, with no option of apple juice instead and there wasn't a major collection of alcoholic bottles that they even highlighted. So I tend to feel that they should just proceed as always and you just have to cope with the things that make you uncomfortable. I agree! I don’t think they should modify the game content. What I’m imagining is more of a “heads up, this content is coming up soon” (if the player asks for a heads up — for most players, there would be no warning). It would then be the player’s responsibility to decide how to respond to that info. But the same content would happen regardless. The main reason I think this is a good idea is because it would free the writers to explore tougher subjects. They’ve mentioned that they don’t want to create situations where, suddenly, the game is no longer fun for a large chunk of players. If those players could get a heads up before the tough subject is about to appear, then they could remain — knowing that they wouldn’t be ambushed by it unexpectedly. The end result is that players would be more able to confront the topic, rather than avoiding the whole game.
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