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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 7, 2020 13:57:06 GMT
Humanity is not gonna make it... How so? I agree toggles are silly, but content warnings are already a well-established part of games. Games aren’t just generically rated M, they’re rated M for specific things like “violence” or “gore”. Part of the reason that exists is for parents, but part of that is for the players themselves — for example, a recovering alcoholic might be taking a break on games rated for “alcohol use”. Exactly, the age rating and specific labels found on each box are mostly for parents because they are responsible for their children. An adult can be expected to have an ounce of responsibility for their own lives and not rely on others to keep them safe and sound in shrink wrap so that nothing bad can trigger them... If seeing alcohol in a videogame is enough to make a recovering alcoholic relapse than they shouldn't be on their own yet because they'll see alcohol advertising or people drinking alcohol everywhere anyway! I know recovering alcoholics personally who can sit with their friends who are consuming beer without having a breakdown. We have these labels on the box and that should be sufficient for anybody with the capacity for some self reflection to make a decision on whether or not this piece of entertainment (!) is suitable for them at this point in their lives. Also, they can go online and ask people if X is in the game to be extra sure. Anybody so fragile that they need a trigger warning to flash up during gameplay should maybe consider playing children's games because those have strict regulations. Go play an Nintendo game then. They don't allow alcohol/smoking or religious beliefs in their games targeted at children. Buy an M rated game and you have been warned that all bets are off. It's not the game developer's job to babysit their consumers. It's the job of therapists.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Sept 7, 2020 15:14:08 GMT
I agree! I don’t think they should modify the game content. What I’m imagining is more of a “heads up, this content is coming up soon” (if the player asks for a heads up — for most players, there would be no warning). It would then be the player’s responsibility to decide how to respond to that info. But the same content would happen regardless. The main reason I think this is a good idea is because it would free the writers to explore tougher subjects. They’ve mentioned that they don’t want to create situations where, suddenly, the game is no longer fun for a large chunk of players. If those players could get a heads up before the tough subject is about to appear, then they could remain — knowing that they wouldn’t be ambushed by it unexpectedly. The end result is that players would be more able to confront the topic, rather than avoiding the whole game. I'm not sure I understand how this would work in practice. Say someone is terrified of spiders. They turn on the "Spider warning" toggle. They start playing the game. They go on a quest. They get a spider warning. They are terrified of spiders. They can't finish the quest because they are terrified of spiders. They have to finish the quest in order to finish playing the game. They have spent $80.00 on a game that they can't finish. Wouldn't it have been better for them not to have spent the $80 in the first place?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 7, 2020 15:15:10 GMT
I'm not particularly on either side of the discussion, but I find some points made that I'd like to respond... How so? I agree toggles are silly, but content warnings are already a well-established part of games. Games aren’t just generically rated M, they’re rated M for specific things like “violence” or “gore”. Part of the reason that exists is for parents, but part of that is for the players themselves — for example, a recovering alcoholic might be taking a break on games rated for “alcohol use”. Exactly, the age rating and specific labels found on each box are mostly for parents because they are responsible for their children. An adult can be expected to have an ounce of responsibility for their own lives and not rely on others to keep them safe and sound in shrink wrap so that nothing bad can trigger them... There are SO MANY warnings and information that are directed to adults (epilepsy warnings, allergy warnings, genuine trigger warnings, even calorie counts, etc) to help us make those adult decisions I'm surprised this point is even made. Like, even if grownups are supposed to take responsibility and inform themselves about content they may want to avoid that is still relying on others to do so And if a company would want to accommodate at least people with some kind of emotional triggers and creates an option that is otherwise inobstructive for those who don't feel the need to switch the option on... what's the problem, really? Like... I have this weird issue where I get panic attacks when there's a certain combination of colors, shapes and sounds. I don't know if it's a misophonia + additional stimuli, but I know it happens occasionally. And having a panic attack, especially a massive one, is hardly anything to be dismissive of. I can't protect myself from it much too, because it's a very obscure kind of issue so I don't expect to be accommodated. But I know enough about panic attacks and triggering to have sympathy for those who may benefit from issuing at least some content warnings. This is Perfect Solution Fallacy in a nutshell... so because they can't control *all* of exposure to alcohol it means that they should just accept full exposure, everywhere and at all times? Sitting with friends and being involved for hours or days in a story-driven game that is designed in many ways specifically to hit you very hard right in emotions are two quite different things. I'm also pretty sure that alcoholics generally avoid being in company of those who'd encourage them to drink, or make them want to join drinking. I know some who have or had problems too.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 15:38:42 GMT
I agree! I don’t think they should modify the game content. What I’m imagining is more of a “heads up, this content is coming up soon” (if the player asks for a heads up — for most players, there would be no warning). It would then be the player’s responsibility to decide how to respond to that info. But the same content would happen regardless. The main reason I think this is a good idea is because it would free the writers to explore tougher subjects. They’ve mentioned that they don’t want to create situations where, suddenly, the game is no longer fun for a large chunk of players. If those players could get a heads up before the tough subject is about to appear, then they could remain — knowing that they wouldn’t be ambushed by it unexpectedly. The end result is that players would be more able to confront the topic, rather than avoiding the whole game. I'm not sure I understand how this would work in practice. Say someone is terrified of spiders. They turn on the "Spider warning" toggle. They start playing the game. They go on a quest. They get a spider warning. They are terrified of spiders. They can't finish the quest because they are terrified of spiders. They have to finish the quest in order to finish playing the game. They have spent $80.00 on a game that they can't finish. Wouldn't it have been better for them not to have spent the $80 in the first place? It’s the same idea as a doctor or dentist saying “ok, this might pinch a little” right before jabbing you with a needle. You’re still going to let them jab you, so on the surface the pain is the same. But the warning changes how the patient will relate to the pain. The patient is an adult, and is well aware that this is something that will happen during the visit. Yet there’s still a place for that near-term warning, even if it doesn’t change what actually happens (getting jabbed with a needle, seeing spiders, etc). And of course, some people ask their doctors not to tell them when the jab is coming, which is why I think any sort of content warning system — if they ever choose to add one in a future game — should be optional to each player.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 7, 2020 15:55:12 GMT
several different discussion threads happening at once here. didn't read Hrungr's post as pertaining to people wanting to dictate every aspect of the PC's backstory or getting upset when their highly detailed and elaborate headcanons are not 'respected'. I don't think that's what he was saying That's just some posters making sh*t up to attack others.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 15:57:34 GMT
Do people in here seriously not understand what a content warning is?
Content/Trigger Warnings are simple, 2-second statements that upcoming content has aspects that viewers may find upsetting. Television shows use them, the news uses them.
Content warnings are useful, not because they allow people to *avoid* things that may distress them (although they may choose to avoid them, and that is FINE), but because they also allow people to mentally and emotionally prepare for what they are about to see.
Some people aren't just "afraid" of things, and actually have legitimate reasons for wanting to be warned beforehand. They might be veterans with war-related PTSD, or victims of sexual violence. A simple minute's warning, for them, can make all the difference between being able to watch and even enjoy the content, or having a legitimate trauma-related episode or anxiety attack.
As far as "toggles" go, it's not at all an unreasonable suggestion. A content warning is just a short piece of text. If BioWare can accommodate a toggle to turn on subtitles for every single piece of dialogue in the entire 60-hour video game, they can accommodate a few content warnings.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 15:58:46 GMT
Irony, thy name is Iakus.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 7, 2020 16:11:57 GMT
There are SO MANY warnings and information that are directed to adults (epilepsy warnings, allergy warnings, genuine trigger warnings, even calorie counts, etc) to help us make those adult decisions I'm surprised this point is even made. Yes, those are medical concerns, which means the company is covering their ass in case somebody dies and they get sued. So you're saying when an NPC drinks beer at a tavern that's somehow more tempting than sitting next to a real life person drinking? OK then... You make it sound like drinking in a videogame is something that takes up hours of playtime. Now who's being ridiculous? I have to think really hard about which games even involved quests about drinking alcohol. If the mere mention of alcohol or NPCs drinking in a tavern is already a massive trigger, then a very fragile recovering alcoholic will have a hard time finding an M rated game that is complete devoid of this subject. How many trigger warnings can you cram onto the box cover??? Where does it stop? That's a bottomless pit. The problem I have with this entire topic is this godawful victim culture that we're stuck in. Everybody has issues. Avoiding triggers doesn't solve anything when we're talking about emotional issues. Triggers ARE everywhere. People need to learn how to deal with them. That's what therapy and support groups are for. Medical issues is different, hence epilepsy warnings. But phobias and such are not going to get better by people avoiding everything unpleasant and demanding the world cater to their victimhood. I wish people would stop blaming others for their discomfort. Nobody owes you anything. We're talking about a stupid videogame! If I watch a movie that ends up being too gory I turn it off. We all make decisions on what we're comfortable with all the time, alcoholic or not. I'm not going to complain that the movie didn't have a warning about exactly what kind of gore to expect with a chart on which body parts are affected. I can read a review however and inform myself. And if I still want to take a gamble and watch a gory movie anyway, that's my problem. We live in an age where people can easily get a ton of information on everything if they so desire. Why should a game developer have to come up with a long list of trigger warnings or even spend money on in-game trigger warnings? That's crazy to me.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 7, 2020 16:35:34 GMT
The idea I was suggesting wasn’t a toggle, but a warning when something’s about to come up. So it wouldn’t change the actual content, it would just flag when it’s getting close. Could be as simple as extra text, like how romance options sometimes have that “[starts a romance]” note added to the end. To my understanding, the people who push for toggles are pushing for content to be outright removable. And yeah, I completely agree that that idea is unworkable... not to mention, usually entangled with weird fundie morality policing. Flagging would do the opposite — rather than removing content, it frees writers and players to explore Thank you for the clarification. to be honest I have to admit I was thinking of something different when I thought of a toggle, particularly what I've bolded in your post here, not to mention I was completely unsure of how bioware would begin to pull something like that off in an entire game but a simple text/warning popping up seems more feasible. My main concern is that I don't want content being completely blocked out/censored. Personally this is a feature I would never use myself, but honestly if Bioware wanted to put it in, it wouldn't bother me that it's there.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 16:40:01 GMT
several different discussion threads happening at once here. didn't read Hrungr's post as pertaining to people wanting to dictate every aspect of the PC's backstory or getting upset when their highly detailed and elaborate headcanons are not 'respected'. I don't think that's what he was saying I didn't claim that Hrungr was saying that. I veered into making jokes about people with elaborate headcanons because it is fun to do. I still disagree, fundamentally, with Hrungr's points that "care must be taken when stripping the PC of agency", and that slavery in general is a "contentious" issue. Firstly, agency in video games is an illusion; games have rules, players are always constrained by what the rules allow. The only true agency anyone has is the choice to not play. Will people get upset if they have to start as a slave? Probably. But people get upset about everything BioWare does, so who cares? Certainly BioWare doesn't seem to. If anything, a lot of their narrative choices seem designed to upset as many people as possible. Secondly, slavery is not a "contentious issue", slavery is bad. Most people around the world agree that it's bad. All the countries of the United Nations officially agree that it is bad. All mainstream media portrays slavery as bad. BioWare produces the only modern fiction I've ever seen (barring niche erotica), where otherwise likeable characters tell us about how slavery is Good Actually, or at the very least, not worse than poverty. The only people putting BioWare in a complicated position are BioWare themselves, and they can un-complicate it at any time by simply not having nominally 'good', supposedly intelligent characters talk about how they think slavery is fine. As long as they can manage that much, there's literally nothing wrong with the PC starting as a slave. Some of the most famous protagonists of fiction have been born enslaved or became enslaved at some point in their story.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 7, 2020 16:55:45 GMT
Irony, thy name is Iakus. Block me
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 7, 2020 17:00:25 GMT
Care has to be taken when you strip away all the PC's agency and power. PCs do not have any power or agency to begin with. It is given to them at the start of gameplay, when the player assumes control. Yeah, sure, some weirdos on here WOULD get upset, because they want to dictate every aspect of the PCs life from birth onwards, despite the fact that BioWare has never allowed that and likely never will. It is not remotely reasonable to get upset about something that happened to your character *before you even knew they existed*. "Doesn't line up with my personal, insanely detailed headcanon" is not a legitimate grievance. This has nothing to do with headcanon, or players dictating every aspect of their PCs lives, this was specifically concern about starting the PC off as a slave. I'm not sure how this is getting lost here. Now it may not be an issue for some, you may personally think it a trivial concern, but I guarantee you it wouldn't be for others. Making a slave, or even former slave, out of PC I just see as potential for a lot of backlash. Being a slave is not going to be viewed upon the same way as BW's other character origins. As I said, this is just one avenue, there are plenty of other avenues which they can take.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 17:16:35 GMT
you may personally think it a trivial concern, but I guarantee you it wouldn't be for others. I know that. You're just describing how perspective works. No doubt there are things YOU consider trivial in existing BioWare games that are huge deals for other people. There's always someone, somewhere, who will make a huge deal out of anything. That's not a reason to not do that thing. Can you elaborate on WHY those people would be upset, and why BioWare or I should listen to them? As I have said above to Solas, some of the most famous protagonists in fiction started out as slaves or became slaves at some point.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 7, 2020 17:16:39 GMT
Being a slave is not going upon the same way as BW's other character origins. Dwarven casteless origin. Your sister is forced to whore herself so she can become pregnant with a lord's baby, your mother is a brainless drunk who doesn't recognize you and you are the cheap tool of a Carta boss forced to do whatever he ask because he let you live in an house and pay for things until your sister gets her belly full with a kid. Everyone hates you in Orzammar because you have a brand in your face. If you didn't work for the Carta, you'll be begging for money in the street as you're not even good enough to do the jobs of the Servant caste. Legally, you do not even exist. That's pretty much what a slave origin would be like I think.
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Post by Solas on Sept 7, 2020 17:29:15 GMT
think everyone posting agrees slavery is bad.
as for BW and what they did with it in the past: ye, hence being leery of how they'd handle it next time (context), especially in the more prominent area of PC origin.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 7, 2020 17:44:30 GMT
Irony, thy name is Iakus. Block me Block you? C'mon, man. You think pessimistpanda doesn't enjoy this? When you think someone you disagree with is being silly, you want to engage more, not less. (Not offering up any comment on whatever p-p was commenting on; didn't read it.)
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Post by Iakus on Sept 7, 2020 17:53:11 GMT
Block you? C'mon, man. You think pessimistpanda doesn't enjoy this? When you think someone you disagree with is being silly, you want to engage more, not less. (Not offering up any comment on whatever p-p was commenting on; didn't read it.) If the person in question has something of value to add, I'd agree. But not everyone is worth my time.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 7, 2020 17:59:11 GMT
Secondly, slavery is not a "contentious issue", slavery is bad. Most people around the world agree that it's bad. All the countries of the United Nations officially agree that it is bad. All mainstream media portrays slavery as bad. BioWare produces the only modern fiction I've ever seen (barring niche erotica), where otherwise likeable characters tell us about how slavery is Good Actually, or at the very least, not worse than poverty. The only people putting BioWare in a complicated position are BioWare themselves, and they can un-complicate it at any time by simply not having nominally 'good', supposedly intelligent characters talk about how they think slavery is fine. You're not seriously trying to argue that Bioware is pro slavery because a fictional character has a questionable opinion that's reflective of the environment they grew up in? Come on, Panda. I know you're smarter than that. Dorian's opinion on slavery makes perfect sense. Since when does a fictional character's opinion represent the writer's opinion? When did this nonsensical notion start? I keep hearing this argument all the time now and it makes me wonder when exactly people lost the ability to grasp the difference between characterization and intended meaning. Depiction and endorsement. That said, I happen to somewhat agree with the idea that there are worse things than slavery. Under certain circumstances, mind you. Not every slave is treated like a dog. Now of course most slaves are treated badly. And I DO think that slavery is humanity's biggest sin and I condemn it as evil. Yet nothing is black and white. So when people try to argue that something is always 100% the worst thing, then that's silly to me. It's possible for a slave to lead a better life than a beggar on the street. Does that make slavery OK? Of course not. Because why make a poor person a slave and not a servant? There is no justification for slavery over voluntary servitude. But claiming that every slave who ever lived had the worst possible life is not true. You can muddle the slavery is bad argument even further if talking about prison inmates. They can be put to work. Is that slave work? And if so, why is it acceptable? To repay a debt to society? If that's OK, then how about the wronged party demand reparations in the form of slavery directly? Or is that an indentured servant? So is temporary slavery OK then because the person did this to themselves? It's really not quite as black and white as some people make it out to be even if you disregard that a fictional character can believe whatever they want and we can choose to find that repulsive or not.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 7, 2020 18:32:11 GMT
Secondly, slavery is not a "contentious issue", slavery is bad. Most people around the world agree that it's bad. All the countries of the United Nations officially agree that it is bad. All mainstream media portrays slavery as bad. BioWare produces the only modern fiction I've ever seen (barring niche erotica), where otherwise likeable characters tell us about how slavery is Good Actually, or at the very least, not worse than poverty. The only people putting BioWare in a complicated position are BioWare themselves, and they can un-complicate it at any time by simply not having nominally 'good', supposedly intelligent characters talk about how they think slavery is fine. You're not seriously trying to argue that Bioware is pro slavery because a fictional character has a questionable opinion that's reflective of the environment they grew up in? Come on, Panda. I know you're smarter than that. Dorian's opinion on slavery makes perfect sense. Since when does a fictional character's opinion represent the writer's opinion? When did this nonsensical notion start? I keep hearing this argument all the time now and it makes me wonder when exactly people lost the ability to grasp the difference between characterization and intended meaning. Depiction and endorsement. Yeah, if this were the case it would be ridiculously hard to write any characters that had flaws. I can't think of one Bioware character that didn't do or say something I completely disagreed with at one time or another but I never took it as the writers actually supporting those ideas and thinking they were good. Zev is an assassin, Solas is going to murder millions, Oghren is a drunk that pretty much abandons his kid, Anders doesn't even care if you give Fenris back to his former master, Isabela's shenanigans lead to a lot of death etc. the list goes on. I always thought all the morally ambiguous characters made the stories more interesting.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 7, 2020 19:13:33 GMT
Yeah Bioware has not shied away in creating characters who do morally questionable things. I mean your introduction to Zev is him trying to kill you and you having the option to spare him and join your party despite the fact that Zev is Loghain's henchman.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 7, 2020 19:39:02 GMT
Yeah, if this were the case it would be ridiculously hard to write any characters that had flaws. I can't think of one Bioware character that didn't do or say something I completely disagreed with at one time or another but I never took it as the writers actually supporting those ideas and thinking they were good. Zev is an assassin, Solas is going to murder millions, Oghren is a drunk that pretty much abandons his kid, Anders doesn't even care if you give Fenris back to his former master, Isabela's shenanigans lead to a lot of death etc. the list goes on. I always thought all the morally ambiguous characters made the stories more interesting. Exactly! Bioware explained Tevinter's view on slavery through Dorian. That was it. Pretty sure the player wasn't meant to go "Now, if you put it that way, I guess slavery is fine!" The player is merely confronted with the justification for slavery in Tevinter by those who own slaves and who of course are going to make it sound not quite so bad. Just as Bull is bullshitting you and especially himself about how great the qun is. Strictly speaking companion dialogue and any other character's opinion is just lore exposition presented through different lenses. You learn about the world through these characters. The player then can decide whose opinion they believe/agree with the most. And that's exactly how it should be.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 7, 2020 21:34:05 GMT
I had another thought about the image of the eight figures...what if they aren't your companions..but Solas's.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 21:42:11 GMT
I had another thought about the image of the eight figures...what if they aren't your companions..but Solas's. As someone who deeply, deeply wants the DA4 protagonist to be a double agent... why not both?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 7, 2020 22:27:49 GMT
I had another thought about the image of the eight figures...what if they aren't your companions..but Solas's. As someone who deeply, deeply wants the DA4 protagonist to be a double agent... why not both? Or another Yoshimo...
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 22:31:46 GMT
think everyone posting agrees slavery is bad. as for BW and what they did with it in the past: ye, hence being leery of how they'd handle it next time (context), especially in the more prominent area of PC origin. I will say this though. I’ll bet the Imperium’s products are some of the cheapest around.
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