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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 22:36:15 GMT
Secondly, slavery is not a "contentious issue", slavery is bad. Most people around the world agree that it's bad. All the countries of the United Nations officially agree that it is bad. All mainstream media portrays slavery as bad. BioWare produces the only modern fiction I've ever seen (barring niche erotica), where otherwise likeable characters tell us about how slavery is Good Actually, or at the very least, not worse than poverty. The only people putting BioWare in a complicated position are BioWare themselves, and they can un-complicate it at any time by simply not having nominally 'good', supposedly intelligent characters talk about how they think slavery is fine. You're not seriously trying to argue that Bioware is pro slavery because a fictional character has a questionable opinion that's reflective of the environment they grew up in? No? What BioWare actually thinks has nothing to do with my point. I'm referring to Hrungr calling slavery a "contentious issue" (and therefore the PC shouldn't be a slave), for something to be "contentious", opinion has to be *divided* about it. Opinion is not divided, the vast, vast majority of people and organisations around the world agree that slavery is a bad thing. I don't dispute that Dorian's opinion "makes sense", but making sense isn't the point. Having a character we're supposed to like and even romance endorse slavery was an *extremely* controversial choice, having him condemn it would not have been. For BioWare to avoid controversy around slavery, all they need to do is have the nominally 'good' characters condemn it, or at least not support it. That is not very hard to do at all. Dragon Age: Origins had sexual assault in it, and supposedly the sexual abuse of city elves in particular is common, but BioWare didn't have Alistair say "actually I think rape is fine, especially when it happens to those filthy city elves", even though, given the bigoted nature of the setting, it would have "made sense" for him to have that opinion.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 22:43:02 GMT
I can see it being contentious insofar as to making it a player character background. It lacks the appeal of things like conscription of service in something like a military or even being a prisoner. Like “Ew, I don’t wanna be a butler with an included certificate of ownership.”
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Post by Little Bengel on Sept 7, 2020 23:14:11 GMT
I don't dispute that Dorian's opinion "makes sense", but making sense isn't the point. Having a character we're supposed to like and even romance endorse slavery was an *extremely* controversial choice, having him condemn it would not have been. "Controversial", normally, implies there was a shitload of people criticizing Bioware for making Dorian endorse slavery. I've yet to see that coming from anyone but you. And he changes his opinion later on, so what's the point to all this?
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 7, 2020 23:18:51 GMT
For BioWare to avoid controversy around slavery, all they need to do is have the nominally 'good' characters condemn it, or at least not support it. That is not very hard to do at all. Dragon Age: Origins had sexual assault in it, and supposedly the sexual abuse of city elves in particular is common, but BioWare didn't have Alistair say "actually I think rape is fine, especially when it happens to those filthy city elves", even though, given the bigoted nature of the setting, it would have "made sense" for him to have that opinion. Would it? Societies in pretty much every time and place would commonly agree rape is bad, even if views on what exactly constitutes rape and how serious a crime it is differ. But people tend to be oblivious (willfully or otherwise) to the flaws of their own socioeconomic system and assume that's just the way things are and they couldn't possibly be any better. I wouldn't particularly expect Dorian, in light of his background, to have enlightened views on slavery any more than I expect the average American to be critical of capitalism. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. Of course, the problem exists in the first place because fantasy authors seem determined to perpetuate the myth that slavery is a thing only exotic, vaguely oriental places do. If they were trying to make DA remotely like real history,* slavery would be practiced almost everywhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Dorian has a point that someplace like Orlais is no better, because even if you set aside serfs not really being free men and women, claiming that Fantasy Ancien Regime is on morally superior ground to Fantasy Byzantium because you've artificially extirpated slavery from the former is plainly cheating. *Which I'm not saying they should.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 23:25:17 GMT
I don't dispute that Dorian's opinion "makes sense", but making sense isn't the point. Having a character we're supposed to like and even romance endorse slavery was an *extremely* controversial choice, having him condemn it would not have been. "Controversial", normally, implies there was a shitload of people criticizing Bioware for making Dorian endorse slavery. I've yet to see that coming from anyone but you. And he changes his opinion later on, so what's the point to all this? I didn't say there WAS controversy. I said it was controversial, meaning controversy was a likely outcome. Why don't you talk to the people who think having the PC be a slave would be a controversial choice NOW?
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Post by smilesja on Sept 7, 2020 23:38:34 GMT
Why should Bioware avoid controversy? If anything, they should explore slavery and the complexities surrounding it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 23:41:20 GMT
Why should Bioware avoid controversy? If anything, they should explore slavery and the complexities surrounding it. I dunno if I would describe it as being particularly complex. The dynamic between various masters and their slaves would undoubtedly differ, but ultimately the effect is just about the same, of course with the added detail that with the Tevinter Imperium comes the inclusion of slaves as blood mage batteries.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 23:48:35 GMT
For BioWare to avoid controversy around slavery, all they need to do is have the nominally 'good' characters condemn it, or at least not support it. That is not very hard to do at all. Dragon Age: Origins had sexual assault in it, and supposedly the sexual abuse of city elves in particular is common, but BioWare didn't have Alistair say "actually I think rape is fine, especially when it happens to those filthy city elves", even though, given the bigoted nature of the setting, it would have "made sense" for him to have that opinion. Would it? Societies in pretty much every time and place would commonly agree rape is bad, even if views on what exactly constitutes rape and how serious a crime it is differ. But people tend to be oblivious (willfully or otherwise) to the flaws of their own socioeconomic system and assume that's just the way things are and they couldn't possibly be any better. I wouldn't particularly expect Dorian, in light of his background, to have enlightened views on slavery any more than I expect the average American to be critical of capitalism. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. Of course, the problem exists in the first place because fantasy authors seem determined to perpetuate the myth that slavery is a thing only exotic, vaguely oriental places do. If they were trying to make DA remotely like real history,* slavery would be practiced almost everywhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Dorian has a point that someplace like Orlais is no better, because even if you set aside serfs not really being free men and women, claiming that Fantasy Ancien Regime is on morally superior ground to Fantasy Byzantium because you've artificially extirpated slavery from the former is plainly cheating. *Which I'm not saying they should. You can find people *now* who like to argue that sexual assault of women should be legal, though whether or not they genuinely hold that opinion, I could not say. And there are clearly people in the DA setting who think kidnap and rape (at least of certain folk) is just dandy, because they commit it, and not even clandestinely, but brazenly, openly admitting their intent to a crowd of people. If other people in the setting think that way, then Alistair certainly could have. But he didn't, of course, because we, the audience (and women in particular) are supposed to like him.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 7, 2020 23:54:37 GMT
Why should Bioware avoid controversy? If anything, they should explore slavery and the complexities surrounding it. I didn't say they should avoid controversy. I am arguing for making the PC a slave, *despite other people saying that some players wouldn't like it*. My argument is addressing the ridiculous notion that BioWare could not "get away" with having a slave origin "in 2020". Other people made the initial comparison to the City Elf Origin, not me. My entire point this whole time has been that public opinion on both rape and slavery was not markedly different back in 2009 when DAO came out, and that "concern" about a PC slave origin on that basis is *dumb as fucking shit*. In fact, I'm pretty sure the people making that dumbass argument just want to scapegoat "SJWs" or some shit for somehow pre-emptively ruining a game that WON'T BE OUT FOR YEARS.
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 8, 2020 0:01:13 GMT
You can find people *now* who like to argue that sexual assault of women should be legal, though whether or not they genuinely hold that opinion, I could not say. And there are clearly people in the DA setting who think kidnap and rape (at least of certain folk) is just dandy, because they commit it, and not even clandestinely, but brazenly, openly admitting their intent to a crowd of people. If other people in the setting think that way, then Alistair certainly could have. But he didn't, of course, because we, the audience (and women in particular) are supposed to like him. Your mileage may vary, but I don't really find those things comparable. Vaughan is a mustache twirling villain who rapes elves for the lols. Dorian, despite having an actual mustache to twirl, is merely ignorant. He's quick to begin reconsidering his view once he's exposed to a different perspective. A better DA:O analogy would be Leliana, who naively says some racist stuff to an elven Warden who can call her out on it. Oblivious to slavery and all, I find Dorian a far less despicable person than someone like Vivienne, who knows full well the implications of her beliefs and doesn't even entertain the possibility that she might be wrong. EDIT: I should add that I agree that I don't see that a slave origin for the new PC would be particularly controversial by Bioware standards.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 8, 2020 0:10:13 GMT
You can find people *now* who like to argue that sexual assault of women should be legal, though whether or not they genuinely hold that opinion, I could not say. And there are clearly people in the DA setting who think kidnap and rape (at least of certain folk) is just dandy, because they commit it, and not even clandestinely, but brazenly, openly admitting their intent to a crowd of people. If other people in the setting think that way, then Alistair certainly could have. But he didn't, of course, because we, the audience (and women in particular) are supposed to like him. Your mileage may vary, but I don't really find those things comparable. Vaughan is a mustache twirling villain who rapes elves for the lols. Dorian, despite having an actual mustache to twirl, is merely ignorant. He's quick to begin reconsidering his view once he's exposed to it. A better DA:O analogy would be Leliana, who naively says some racist stuff to an elven Warden who can call her out on it. Oblivious to slavery and all, I find Dorian a far less despicable person than someone like Vivienne, who knows full well the implications of her beliefs and doesn't even entertain the possibility that she might be wrong. EDIT: I should add that I agree that I don't see that a slave origin for the new PC would be particularly controversial by Bioware standards. Yes, I agree, Vivienne is despicable. But Vivienne is also not the only gay man in the entire setting so far. But my argument was never that Dorian is controversial (though he very easily could have been). I personally didn't like the decision, but that is by the by. My point is: 1) Slavery in fiction is not a contentious issue generally, because nearly everyone agrees that slavery is a bad thing. 2) Far from controversy being a legitimate concern, the only way BioWare could possibly create any controversy around a slave PC origin would be by going out of their way to portray slavery as potentially 'good'. 3) while there will undoubtedly be some absolute weiners who kick up a fuss about it, just like they do about everything BioWare does (a natural side-effect of having a dedicated fanbase) no reasonable, rational person would have any good reason to be upset about the PC being/having been a slave prior to the player assuming control, anymore than they would have cause to be upset if the PC started as an ice-cream salesmen or a master of sock puppetry.
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 8, 2020 0:18:36 GMT
Yes, I agree, Vivienne is despicable. But Vivienne is also not the only gay man in the entire setting so far. Well, she is the first black woman to be a Bioware companion since BG1, I believe. But I see your point, and completely agree on the rest.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 8, 2020 0:37:26 GMT
Yes, I agree, Vivienne is despicable. But Vivienne is also not the only gay man in the entire setting so far. Well, she is the first black woman to be a Bioware companion since BG1, I believe. But I see your point, and completely agree on the rest. I thought Isabela was supposed to be? I don't remember if BioWare ever officially stated that, but people claim it. Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. Hmmmmm.
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N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Prime Likes: 5778
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Post by melbella on Sept 8, 2020 2:22:53 GMT
Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. LOL....is there any character in DA that you do like?
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 8, 2020 2:47:53 GMT
I thought Isabela was supposed to be? I don't remember if BioWare ever officially stated that, but people claim it. Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. Hmmmmm. I always figured Isabela was supposed to evoke a vaguely "Arabic" or perhaps Indian/Romani look. I guess she could be mixed race, but I'd say the ambiguity makes her a doubtful candidate for the title of first black woman to be a companion since BG1.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 8, 2020 3:11:30 GMT
Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. LOL....is there any character in DA that you do like? Anders.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 8, 2020 3:11:53 GMT
I thought Isabela was supposed to be? I don't remember if BioWare ever officially stated that, but people claim it. Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. Hmmmmm. I always figured Isabela was supposed to evoke a vaguely "Arabic" or perhaps Indian/Romani look. I guess she could be mixed race, but I'd say the ambiguity makes her a doubtful candidate for the title of first black woman to be a companion since BG1. Isabela is at least half black, since her mother is Rivaini like Vivienne. We don’t know what Isabela’s father was.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 8, 2020 3:12:29 GMT
Well, she is the first black woman to be a Bioware companion since BG1, I believe. But I see your point, and completely agree on the rest. I thought Isabela was supposed to be? I don't remember if BioWare ever officially stated that, but people claim it. Of course, I also consider Isabela to be despicable, so that doesn't help their case. Hmmmmm. dalishious.tumblr.com/post/176166912057/the-rivaini-are-canonically-blackSeems like they did state that. The posts from Gaider are a little hard to read due to their size, but it's there.
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 8, 2020 3:45:40 GMT
LOL....is there any character in DA that you do like? When you get down to it, most DA companions are indeed horrible people, or at least have done horrible things. Works for fictional drama, but they're not the sort of folks I'd want to hang around in real life. Isabela is at least half black, since her mother is Rivaini like Vivienne. We don’t know what Isabela’s father was. *shrug* I guess it's also a cultural thing. Where I come from, no one would consider Isabela black whatever her ancestry, so the descriptor never even occurred to me while playing. Guess it goes to show it's all made up nonsense.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 8, 2020 8:40:52 GMT
No? What BioWare actually thinks has nothing to do with my point. I'm referring to Hrungr calling slavery a "contentious issue" (and therefore the PC shouldn't be a slave), for something to be "contentious", opinion has to be *divided* about it. Opinion is not divided, the vast, vast majority of people and organisations around the world agree that slavery is a bad thing. I don't dispute that Dorian's opinion "makes sense", but making sense isn't the point. Having a character we're supposed to like and even romance endorse slavery was an *extremely* controversial choice, having him condemn it would not have been. For BioWare to avoid controversy around slavery, all they need to do is have the nominally 'good' characters condemn it, or at least not support it. That is not very hard to do at all. Dragon Age: Origins had sexual assault in it, and supposedly the sexual abuse of city elves in particular is common, but BioWare didn't have Alistair say "actually I think rape is fine, especially when it happens to those filthy city elves", even though, given the bigoted nature of the setting, it would have "made sense" for him to have that opinion. I misunderstood you then, apologies. I agree that there is nothing controversial about a slave origin or slavery as a topic per se. Because controversy is always about the intent, not the subject. As you say, as long as the narrative condemns a thing that most people would condemn too, it's fine. You could show a character eating children and it would be fine as long as that character is a bad guy. Or insane. You DO have a problem with a companion having a pro slavery opinion despite saying it makes sense for them, right? So this whole thing is about making a gay character look bad then? So it's fine that Vivienne is a pro mage imprisonment bitch even though she represents black people but a gay man cannot be pro slavery? Am I misunderstanding something again? Sorry if I come off like an ass, I'm just trying to understand what's going on here. As you say, most of the companions do and say things that aren't flattering. Because they're people with flaws. I too happen to think that almost all DA2 companions are either crazy or stupid. At least all the ones you can romance! So what is your problem with Dorian and slavery exactly? What's worse about that than Fenris almost murdering his sister? I was WAY more horrified about that tbh. And Anders is a terrorist! If you find Dorian's attitude towards slavery too despicable to like and romance him, that's not Bioware's fault. And Dorian having that opinion is NOT controversial at all. Because you can reject his reasoning and even make him reconsider. So this is TOTALLY morally perfectly middle school ethics level fine.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 8, 2020 9:35:26 GMT
I had another thought about the image of the eight figures...what if they aren't your companions..but Solas's. You know after all this speculation, we'll end up killing Solas in the opening cut scene then catching a boat to Tevinter with a lot of sheepish looking elves
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Post by colfoley on Sept 8, 2020 9:39:52 GMT
I had another thought about the image of the eight figures...what if they aren't your companions..but Solas's. You know after all this speculation, we'll end up killing Solas in the opening cut scene then catching a boat to Tevinter with a lot of sheepish looking elves and yet that would probably be the least surprising thing they can do. I don't trust marketing anymore. Though could you imagine? "What will they call you when this is-" wa bam arrow to the face.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 8, 2020 9:42:19 GMT
wa bam arrow to the face. This should have happened as soon as that suspicious elf showed up at the Chantry's front door, in Inquisition.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 8, 2020 9:44:28 GMT
You know after all this speculation, we'll end up killing Solas in the opening cut scene then catching a boat to Tevinter with a lot of sheepish looking elves and yet that would probably be the least surprising thing they can do. I don't trust marketing anymore. Though could you imagine? "What will they call you when this is-" wa bam arrow to the face. Honestly I'd be ok with that. Better than hyping it up too much then being let down. And yes, after I wrote it I thought it was actually a good bet they'd do just that
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 8, 2020 9:45:21 GMT
wa bam arrow to the face. This should have happened as soon as that suspicious elf showed up at the Chantry's front door, in Inquisition. It's amazing they didn't shoot Cole thru the head as soon as he appeared
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