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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 5, 2020 16:05:46 GMT
Yeah, I don't want to be penalised in the form of lost content or even *harder* battles for not being 'good' enough to keep a teammate alive. BioWare can put that shit in a separate 'hardcore' mode if they really want, for the dorks who care more about bragging rights than having fun or enjoying a story. As one of said dorks, I feel I should chime in to say that I would also hate this. I don’t reload after questionable RP decisions, but I absolutely would reload if I lost a party member in filler combat. Which means it’s kind of pointless; you’re not actually losing a party member, you’re being forced to redo the combat. Plus, it would massively overcomplicate the writing process, because everyone could potentially leave, even mid-quest. Which means each character has to have a pretty low impact on the story (ew), or else there’s a huge exploding tree of permutations to consider, just to support a situation that 99% of players would reload to avoid. There are ways to temper this, like having characters operate with an obligation outside of their personal feelings to the player character, so even if they can’t storm off in a huff and never come back, they may have a different greeting. I just don’t want these characters to fall into the Mass Effect trap, where they’re largely static, and strangely sycophantic even when I screw around and do as many terrible things as I can. At the same time though, being able to kill a character immediately doesn’t preclude the possibility of their having meaningful content. Look at Zevran. We can off him without ever speaking to him, but he gets plenty of content and even gets to have a conflict with the Crows in the final act of the game. There’s nothing precluding getting stuff like this. I think perma-death or any kind of penalty to the story rooted in combat is pretty cheap though. This works best for games with text-based dialogue that doesn’t have to contend with issues like word count, but not for fully-voiced characters.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Sept 5, 2020 18:07:27 GMT
Having all the companions having their own thoughts and opinions is important to make them realistic, Origins did this really well when companions attacked you or left you when you did something so opposed to their own beliefs and opinions. The developers talking about your decisions resulting in your companions living or dying is really encouraging.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 5, 2020 18:31:35 GMT
Having all the companions having their own thoughts and opinions is important to make them realistic, Origins did this really well when companions attacked you or left you when you did something so opposed to their own beliefs and opinions. The developers talking about your decisions resulting in your companions living or dying is really encouraging. It’ll probably be just like the Suicide mission in ME2, where if you help them they live and if you don’t they die in the final assault. Maybe ME3 kind of stuff too.
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Post by TabithaTH on Sept 6, 2020 7:25:42 GMT
How about the other way around. If the PC falls in battle, then the people who like them, (especially a LI) will get a small boost of some kind. It makes far more sense for them to want revenge, rather than just run away, imho. Likewise the PC could get something if someone they like falls.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 13:31:26 GMT
Having all the companions having their own thoughts and opinions is important to make them realistic, Origins did this really well when companions attacked you or left you when you did something so opposed to their own beliefs and opinions. The developers talking about your decisions resulting in your companions living or dying is really encouraging. It’ll probably be just like the Suicide mission in ME2, where if you help them they live and if you don’t they die in the final assault. Maybe ME3 kind of stuff too. I hate ME2’s loyalty mechanic. I can appreciate from a certain perspective that they’d want something more meaningful than just some stat boost or something like that, but the idea of a character losing just enough competence to drop dead in the final battle feels really cheap. If a character is going to die, it should be the direct consequence of a more meaningful story choice, like how gaining Zevran’s approval in Origins can determine whether or not he betrays you, that sort of thing. I did also like the possibility of the Iron Bull’s betrayal, which is a pretty great turn. Honestly, serves anyone right for supporting the Qun lol
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 7, 2020 15:01:45 GMT
Honestly, serves anyone right for supporting the Qun lol No one I have ever seen discuss making this choice has stated their support for the Qun. Those players seem to make a strategic decision based on a larger scope viewing of the incident, which usually goes along with their strategic reasoning for recruiting Iron Bull in the first place. Honestly, I think the whole Chargers drinking scene is as cheap an emotional ploy as having to choose between Hawke and whichever warden in the Fade.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 16:35:45 GMT
Honestly, serves anyone right for supporting the Qun lol No one I have ever seen discuss making this choice has stated their support for the Qun. Those players seem to make a strategic decision based on a larger scope viewing of the incident, which usually goes along with their strategic reasoning for recruiting Iron Bull in the first place. Honestly, I think the whole Chargers drinking scene is as cheap an emotional ploy as having to choose between Hawke and whichever warden in the Fade. Nonsense! As we all know, the Qunari on Berethlok neither drink nor have fun, and that makes their lives infinitely less valuable than the Chargers’. Bull drinks and has fun, but he’s the exception. It’s ok for us to give him the opportunity to go Tal-Vashoth, even though he literally has to be forced out. I’m sure not a single one of the 100 Qunari on the boat has even considered going Tal-Vashoth. I’m sure they’re all Qunari loyalists prepared to stab the Inquisitor in the back without the slightest hesitation. You know, unlike Iron Bull. None of them deserve a shot at leaving the Qun.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 7, 2020 19:25:19 GMT
Honestly, serves anyone right for supporting the Qun lol No one I have ever seen discuss making this choice has stated their support for the Qun. Those players seem to make a strategic decision based on a larger scope viewing of the incident, which usually goes along with their strategic reasoning for recruiting Iron Bull in the first place. Honestly, I think the whole Chargers drinking scene is as cheap an emotional ploy as having to choose between Hawke and whichever warden in the Fade. Exactly. I side with the Qun in that decision simply because it saves the most lives (both on the ship itself and the war table quests) and because we need everyone’s help to stop Corypheus. I’m hoping that decision has some positive benefits in DA4, like maybe making peace with the Qun easier. But that’s when I thought the Inquisitor would be the PC. Now I have no doubt Patrick is just going to keep hammering how bad that decision was and now I should have chosen the half dozen mercenaries most of whom I couldn’t stand in the scene that’s supposed to endear them.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 20:05:18 GMT
I side with the Qun in that decision simply because it saves the most lives (both on the ship itself and the war table quests) and because we need everyone’s help to stop Corypheus. I’m hoping that decision has some positive benefits in DA4, like maybe making peace with the Qun easier. Me too. It would be really cool to see more decisions that look good/bad when they’re initially presented, but a future game dramatically shifts our perspective. I mean, in my opinion saving the dreadnought is already the better decision, for all the reasons you mentioned. Saving the Chargers just feels waaaay too close to the way real-world countries will accept infinite casualties as long as it’s not “their” people. But we seem to be in the extreme minority on that opinion.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 7, 2020 20:22:08 GMT
I get around that decision by not recruiting Iron Bull in the first place . I don't recruit Zevran either, for similar reasons.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 7, 2020 21:17:55 GMT
I get around that decision by not recruiting Iron Bull in the first place . I don't recruit Zevran either, for similar reasons. Exactly! For Inquisitors who don’t trust any Qunari, skipping Iron Bull’s recruitment makes way more sense than *checks notes* deliberately hiring a Ben-Hassrath spy and going on a Qunari mission, only to flake out at the very end. And hey, Inquisitors are fallible. In the moment, a lot of them will choose to sacrifice many strangers to save a few friends. That’s good roleplaying. But when the players start morally justifying that decision, after they already recruited Iron Bull, that gets a big hmmmmm from me.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2020 22:23:26 GMT
Honestly, serves anyone right for supporting the Qun lol No one I have ever seen discuss making this choice has stated their support for the Qun. Those players seem to make a strategic decision based on a larger scope viewing of the incident, which usually goes along with their strategic reasoning for recruiting Iron Bull in the first place. Honestly, I think the whole Chargers drinking scene is as cheap an emotional ploy as having to choose between Hawke and whichever warden in the Fade. I was actually kinda joking with that bit. I found the whole setup of that quest a bit too contrived, but convincing anyone to leave the Qun is always a plus.
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Post by yeah rip on Sept 8, 2020 10:28:40 GMT
Dual Axis would be ideal, but approval/disapproval works fine, imo. Friendship/rivalry could work depending on the endgame goal. I think it could fit in DAO or DAI, but I hated it in DA2. In the former two, I could see the companions being like "I can't stand your guts, but I'll stick with you for the Greater Good", but in DA2, Hawke is just faffing around for several years and the companions that they don't get on with just go along with them because... why, exactly?
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 8, 2020 15:49:05 GMT
Dual Axis would be ideal, but approval/disapproval works fine, imo. Friendship/rivalry could work depending on the endgame goal of the game. I think it could fit in DAO or DAI, but I hated it in DA2. In the former two, I could see the co.panions being like "I can't stand your guts, but I'll stick with you for the Greater Good", but in DA2, Hawke is just faffing around for several years and the companions that they don't get on with just go along with them because... why, exacy? Because they’re not Hawke’s friends, they’re Varric’s.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2020 16:17:52 GMT
No one I have ever seen discuss making this choice has stated their support for the Qun. Those players seem to make a strategic decision based on a larger scope viewing of the incident, which usually goes along with their strategic reasoning for recruiting Iron Bull in the first place. Honestly, I think the whole Chargers drinking scene is as cheap an emotional ploy as having to choose between Hawke and whichever warden in the Fade. Exactly. I side with the Qun in that decision simply because it saves the most lives (both on the ship itself and the war table quests) and because we need everyone’s help to stop Corypheus. I’m hoping that decision has some positive benefits in DA4, like maybe making peace with the Qun easier. But that’s when I thought the Inquisitor would be the PC. Now I have no doubt Patrick is just going to keep hammering how bad that decision was and now I should have chosen the half dozen mercenaries most of whom I couldn’t stand in the scene that’s supposed to endear them. Shouldn't Denerim end up burned to the ground if the Inquisitor doesn't save the dreadnought? Failed Assassination Attempt Inquiry et seq. don't happen, so presumably the plot succeeds. (Note that poor War Table choices can cause this mission sequence to fail anyway.)
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 8, 2020 16:20:01 GMT
To borrow from previous posts...
I ended up siding with the Qun (as a devout Andrastian, no less) and getting the dreadnought over saving the Chargers too.
If I could have saved both, I would. But if the choice is between a merc company that cannot hold a hill and is caught off-guard by garishly-attired Venatori who can't stop boasting out loud... or a highly-trained group of semi-professional (it's hard to define) warriors equipped with advanced weaponry who have successfully held off the most powerful magocracy this side of Thedas for centuries?
Gimme that dreadnought.
On the long term, this is arguably a miraculous opportunity to get on the good side of the Qunari, which opens up the possibility for future diplomacy and good faith interactions.
As for the actual question...
I said "Other" because the two modes work for different reasons.
Approval/Disapproval works in Origins and Inquisition because you're ostensibly a team trying to accomplish some grand goal. Anyone who's attempted such a quest knows that you don't neccesarily need to be friends but you DO need to work together.
Friendship/Rivalry works in 2 because Hawke and Co. aren't trying to save the world. They each have different, even conflicting goals. Hawke is really the only thing keeping them together, and even then it's subject to being severed.
So, given what little we know about DA:4, it seems like F/R may be more in line.
But A/D has proven to work, so why fix what isn't broken?
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 8, 2020 16:46:18 GMT
But we seem to be in the extreme minority on that opinion. Perhaps in regard to this question. But, generally speaking, since when have "greater good" arguments have been that controversial in DA? I mean, it is literally the only valid argument to be made for circles of magi in general (not for their existences under Chantry rule or the existence of templars. That needs more). But A/D has proven to work, so why fix what isn't broken? Eh, it makes the game "gamey" and can actually undermine RP as players feel pressured to placate (or piss off ) certain characters. Imagine you've go one character of a specific class in your party and they hate your guts, sometimes just because. Like, playing DAI as an (non-rogue) elf who does not hate themselves and having Sera as the only rogue party member, with locks and traps every two meters.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2020 16:52:56 GMT
But that's arguably a real RP decision, rather than being gamey. "I can't offend Sera too much because I need her skills" is not an irrational proposition, in-universe. It only works if the mechanics are plausible too, of course.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 8, 2020 18:41:35 GMT
Eh, it makes the game "gamey" and can actually undermine RP as players feel pressured to placate (or piss off ) certain characters. This is a player problem, not a game problem. Just as feeling the need to collect all the things is a player problem. I redid my whole canon last year and decided to do a complete RP play, not caring about follower approval. It was so freeing AND the friendships that I did form felt more natural and genuine. I also didn't give ANY gifts unless it was a specific item that had been mentioned, such as the nug. My Warden grew close with Leliana, Wynne, and Shale -- my three gal pals. When Leliana speaks fondly of him in DAI, I feel that is genuine care because of the way I played the game. My RP also felt more authentic because I could choose the most appropriate responses, regardless of how a follower would react. If I don't progress with a follower because my approval isn't high enough, well that's on me. I didn't do the quests for Alistair, Sten, Oghren, or Morrigan (Zevran not recruited), because my approval was never high enough with them. In the Landsmeet, when Alistair says something about us being "friends," I had to laugh because, at the time, the meter was either at 0 or -10. After that experience, I vowed to play that way from then on and did so with DAA and DA2, and now DAI. having Sera as the only rogue party member But Varric is available for the entire game and can't be removed? o_O
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 8, 2020 19:05:35 GMT
But that's arguably a real RP decision, rather than being gamey. "I can't offend Sera too much because I need her skills" is not an irrational proposition, in-universe. It only works if the mechanics are plausible too, of course. Eh, that's the problem with these numbers in general. Someone's got to decide on them during writing/development. Player character: *sells a bunch of elves to a Tevinter slavers* Wynne: -40 Player character: *talks to Wynne for fifteen minutes and always agrees with her notions* Wynne: +2 Example from another game. Having Roy Phillips in Fallout3 rated as "Good Karma" This is a player problem, not a game problem. Just as feeling the need to collect all the things is a player problem. And once you get bonuses for sucking up which make other things in the game easier to achieve? Case in point: DAO's attriute bonuses, which could enable Leliana to deal with lock/trap shit otherwise not possible at a given level because she gets CUN, which governs these decidedly non-combat skills (not getting into the combat boosts here). I redid my whole canon last year and decided to do a complete RP play, not caring about follower approval. It was so freeing AND the friendships that I did form felt more natural and genuine. I also had a wake-up appearance similar to what you are describing when I played DAI for the first time. It was Sera's fault. Playing a Lavellan and at one point not buying her shit anymore. ut Varric is available for the entire game and can't be removed? o_O Huh, I thought my post implied a hypothetical situation in which we only have Sera available. She's the most divisive rogue option and has an attitude towards the Inquisitor simply because of race.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 8, 2020 19:21:53 GMT
And once you get bonuses for sucking up which make other things in the game easier to achieve? Case in point: DAO's attriute bonuses, which could enable Leliana to deal with lock/trap shit otherwise not possible at a given level because she gets CUN, which governs these decidedly non-combat skills (not getting into the combat boosts here). Not something I care about. A more authentic RP experience is more valuable to me than making sure I can open every door and chest. Also, I don't recall such bonuses for DAO? DA2 did have different ones for max friend/rival, but the only stat bonuses I recall for DAO were those from specializations, which had nothing to do with approval.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 8, 2020 19:48:32 GMT
Also, I don't recall such bonuses for DAO? DA2 did have different ones for max friend/rival, but the only stat bonuses I recall for DAO were those from specializations, which had nothing to do with approval. It is there, however minor someone might call the bonuses, so I was okay with DA2 giving us something in either direction. DAI doesn't do that, but at we got some unique reactions. *punch Solas* It isn't quite a case of "don't broke, no need to fix". I don't say it is outright "broken", just that there's still plenty of room for experimentation.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 10, 2020 17:12:30 GMT
I'm fine with Approval/Disapproval. Sure it's not a very elegant or sophisticated system, but it gets the job done without confusing either the game or the player. And as long as the opportunities for gains and losses are numerous enough and the potential relationship upgrades and downgrades are also dependent on conversational choices, it doesn't restrict you either from hardcore roleplaying or gaming the system if you want. Personally I can immerse myself in DA:Origins, ignoring the approval meter and just following my character's heart, but the dialogue in all the later Bioware games is just way too polarized, vague and hamfisted for that to work. The first playthroughs are usually just an exercise in frustration where I run into one wall after the other, RP-wise, after which I can think ahead and work out something like a satisfying story to play out within the arbitrary parameters set by the writers on subsequent runs. A dual axis system might be interesting, but I don't think it's necessary. And it'd only really work for deepening the kind of friendship you're specifically developing in dialogue, not for NPC reactions to actual moral decisions you make in front of them. Fenris shouldn't feel a tug of defiant or competitive affection for you when you perform blood rituals in front of him or sell people into slavery, much less feel compelled to stay by your side because you've been just abusive and offensive enough during your travels together. He should disapprove, and he should act on his disapproval when given the option. And if something offends him significantly enough, and the action in question is actually defensible from another perspective, you should be able to soften the blow or even turn it around by thrashing it out in conversation. Concerning romances, I think DA:O did it best by customizing the thresholds and order of the possible relationship upgrades to each NPC's personal preferences, history and hangups. Outside that, Mass Effect 2, 3 and Andromeda's way of just resolving it all through dialogue felt most organic to me. Andromeda in particular is good about giving you scripted romances with enough leeway and elbow room never to feel forced.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 11, 2020 3:46:10 GMT
It is there, however minor someone might call the bonuses, so I was okay with DA2 giving us something in either direction. Yeah, that was one of the few things DA2 did better than Origins in my opinion. The Origins bonuses varied between characters - Alistair had Constitution, Sten had Strength (as examples, can't remember exactly) etc etc. The DA2 bonuses seemed like a nice evolution.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 11, 2020 3:59:13 GMT
They can scrap the approval system and still have bonuses conferred based on you doing stuff they liked.
"You completed Chaotica Evuul's personal quest chain! Chaotica learns Shock and Awwwwwww (deal lightning damage to enemies within 10 meter radius and turn all survivors into Kittens)."
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