Camel
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 257 Likes: 512
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Post by Camel on Nov 13, 2020 16:43:45 GMT
Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Mordin are great multidimensional characters who also had a role in the main plot and arc of the trilogy. Except Garrus who was so awesome he didn't even need a role in the main plot. Can someone tell me who was an unforgettable character in ME:A?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2020 16:45:39 GMT
Can someone tell me who was an unforgettable character in ME:A? Depends, does unforgettably bad still count? I mean, that's still a type of unforgettable. Like Kai Leng.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 13, 2020 19:10:27 GMT
Can someone tell me who was an unforgettable character in ME:A? Depends, does unforgettably bad still count? I mean, that's still a type of unforgettable. Like Kai Leng. Kai Leng was actually a decent character in Drew's book (Retribution). He just git shitty once Mac Walters got his hands on him.
As for ME:A, I liked Kello and Suvi quite a bit. And there was Vorn, the krogan botanist. Best krogan ever. Unfortunately, I didn't really like any of the squad mates that much.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 13, 2020 19:13:09 GMT
Not that anything was wrong with the characters but the ones in Andromeda were complex, dynamic, 3 dimensional human beings. I don't know. I just had a very "who the fuck are you and why are you even here" sort of reaction to every character in Andromeda, including the two playable Ryders. I didn't find them intriguing or interesting and Bioware did nothing, really, with them to change it. Interesting is not the same as dynamic. That is kind of the paradox here; if you look at the characters and how they are written, they are well rounded, have good and bad points, and kinda boring because they are mostly normal. Even the more extreme personalities like Drack and Vetra were tame in comparison to the larger than life characters like Wrex or Garrus. And that's the thing...Wrex and Garrus, at least in the first Mass Effect game, were not really well written. They were info dumps and had basic characteristics that didn't have nuance. They had the benefit of three games to build that nuance and complexity which was nailed in Andromeda in one. You are right that they may not be as interesting. But I will always defend them as being realistic and dynamic. The flaw here is that realistic is kinda boring in comparison. For my money, Vetra, Drack and Jaal were the best companions though due to them standing out a bit with unique personalities and struggles that hint at that larger than life characterization I talked about.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2020 20:58:46 GMT
Kai Leng was actually a decent character in Drew's book (Retribution) He wasn't any better in the comic books. I wish Jack had killed him off, successfully. You are right that they may not be as interesting. But I will always defend them as being realistic and dynamic. The flaw here is that realistic is kinda boring in comparison. And another disadvantage is that a lot of people, myself included, won't be warmed up to the idea of spending another game among these boring people, in the off chance that they won't be this time around. I'm not going to give them the time of day. What chances are there that the people that rejected them the first time around, won't do it again the second time? But please, Bioware, do bring them back in Andromeda 2.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 13, 2020 21:14:32 GMT
Kai Leng was actually a decent character in Drew's book (Retribution) He wasn't any better in the comic books. I wish Jack had killed him off, successfully. You are right that they may not be as interesting. But I will always defend them as being realistic and dynamic. The flaw here is that realistic is kinda boring in comparison. And another disadvantage is that a lot of people, myself included, won't be warmed up to the idea of spending another game among these boring people, in the off chance that they won't be this time around. I'm not going to give them the time of day. What chances are there that the people that rejected them the first time around, won't do it again the second time? But please, Bioware, do bring them back in Andromeda 2. It does bring up an interesting question though that I wonder about, and that is what does the audience want in the end? Dynamic characters, or interesting characters. Both would be amazing but in most fiction you don't really get that, you get one or the other in my experience.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 13, 2020 21:27:38 GMT
Kai Leng was actually a decent character in Drew's book (Retribution) He wasn't any better in the comic books. I wish Jack had killed him off, successfully. You are right that they may not be as interesting. But I will always defend them as being realistic and dynamic. The flaw here is that realistic is kinda boring in comparison. And another disadvantage is that a lot of people, myself included, won't be warmed up to the idea of spending another game among these boring people, in the off chance that they won't be this time around. I'm not going to give them the time of day. What chances are there that the people that rejected them the first time around, won't do it again the second time? But please, Bioware, do bring them back in Andromeda 2. I actually felt the same way about Tali in ME1, but then ME2 happened.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2020 21:43:48 GMT
It does bring up an interesting question though that I wonder about, and that is what does the audience want in the end? Dynamic characters, or interesting characters. If a character doesn't capture my fancy, I am not really invested in them. Which means, if they live or die is trivial and a lot of the associated tensions goes away along with them. Or if there are no stakes, I don't really care how dynamic they are, because they're not really at any risk. So, for me, an interesting character will always win over a dynamic one. I actually felt the same way about Tali in ME1, but then ME2 happened. I ... still don't care about Tali. She's been in 3 games so far. I don't really care if we get her next time or not. Same for Liara.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 13, 2020 21:50:59 GMT
Kai Leng was actually a decent character in Drew's book (Retribution) He wasn't any better in the comic books. I wish Jack had killed him off, successfully. Didn't read the comic he was in but I am fairly sure that was already Walters at work there, too.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2020 22:25:45 GMT
Didn't read the comic he was in but I am fairly sure that was already Walters at work there, too. In the books, he breaks into Anderson's apartment to eat his cereal and takes a piss on his potted plant. He's ridiculous.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 13, 2020 22:36:44 GMT
Didn't read the comic he was in but I am fairly sure that was already Walters at work there, too. In the books, he breaks into Anderson's apartment to eat his cereal and takes a piss on his potted plant. He's ridiculous. That's Deception, which was written by Dietz, horrible book that one. I was talking about Retribution, Drew Karpyshyn's last ME book and Kai Leng's first appearance. The three Karpyshyn novels (Revelation, Ascension and Retribution) are actually rather decent IMO.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 14, 2020 0:25:28 GMT
That's Deception, which was written by Dietz, horrible book that one. I was talking about Retribution, Drew Karpyshyn's last ME book and Kai Leng's first appearance. The three Karpyshyn novels (Revelation, Ascension and Retribution) are actually rather decent IMO. So he's "good" for this one time he appeared in a single book and has sucked in everything else. Which begs the question, which is even his canon depiction? Is it Mac Walters Kai Leng? Dietz Kai Leng or Karpyshyn's Kai Leng? The one that would have to be considered canon, is the Mac Walters one. So if I am stuck with that one, I don't want it. At all. I don't care how Karpyshyn did it in his one book, that's not what I got and I didn't sign up for it. He's been overwhelmingly more bad than good. I'd rather we never got him.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 14, 2020 3:23:04 GMT
That's Deception, which was written by Dietz, horrible book that one. I was talking about Retribution, Drew Karpyshyn's last ME book and Kai Leng's first appearance. The three Karpyshyn novels (Revelation, Ascension and Retribution) are actually rather decent IMO. So he's "good" for this one time he appeared in a single book and has sucked in everything else. Which begs the question, which is even his canon depiction? Is it Mac Walters Kai Leng? Dietz Kai Leng or Karpyshyn's Kai Leng? The one that would have to be considered canon, is the Mac Walters one. So if I am stuck with that one, I don't want it. At all. I don't care how Karpyshyn did it in his one book, that's not what I got and I didn't sign up for it. He's been overwhelmingly more bad than good. I'd rather we never got him. As I said, Retribution was the first appearance of the character, so when Drew first wrote him, it was all good. Then the others screwed him up.
The whole character is canon though (maybe excluding Deception which apparently even BioWare wants to forget), so the "canon" Kai Leng is still a shitty character.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 18, 2020 7:42:34 GMT
BW acknowledged there are errors in Deception and promised a corrected version, which is not going to happen because it's impossible to fix that thing. Nothing there should be assumed canon.
Funny thing that neither it or Karpyshyn's trilogy are referenced in Andromeda. Makes you wonder if the people who wrote the game had even read those.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 18, 2020 10:02:27 GMT
BW acknowledged there are errors in Deception and promised a corrected version, which is not going to happen because it's impossible to fix that thing. Nothing there should be assumed canon. Funny thing that neither it or Karpyshyn's trilogy are referenced in Andromeda. Makes you wonder if the people who wrote the game had even read those. Frankly, I don't treat any of the events in any related media canon, unless referenced in the games. Jack fighting off Kai Leng and Brooks? Never happened. Brooks stealing the Shepard clone from Miranda? Never happened. Brooks being this super cool, super skillful Cerberus agent? Never happened. The franchise is better off that way.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 18, 2020 12:02:25 GMT
BW acknowledged there are errors in Deception and promised a corrected version, which is not going to happen because it's impossible to fix that thing. Nothing there should be assumed canon. Funny thing that neither it or Karpyshyn's trilogy are referenced in Andromeda. Makes you wonder if the people who wrote the game had even read those. Frankly, I don't treat any of the events in any related media canon, unless referenced in the games. Jack fighting off Kai Leng and Brooks? Never happened. Brooks stealing the Shepard clone from Miranda? Never happened. Brooks being this super cool, super skillful Cerberus agent? Never happened. The franchise is better off that way. Can understand that, not everyone has the luck of having deferred judgement until learning secondary sources/established correct views based just on primary ones and some people sleep better having to carry on with own denial rather than if they changed their minds.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 6, 2020 17:15:11 GMT
BW acknowledged there are errors in Deception and promised a corrected version, which is not going to happen because it's impossible to fix that thing. Nothing there should be assumed canon. Funny thing that neither it or Karpyshyn's trilogy are referenced in Andromeda. Makes you wonder if the people who wrote the game had even read those. Frankly, I don't treat any of the events in any related media canon, unless referenced in the games. Jack fighting off Kai Leng and Brooks? Never happened. Brooks stealing the Shepard clone from Miranda? Never happened. Brooks being this super cool, super skillful Cerberus agent? Never happened. The franchise is better off that way. Kai Leng is a better Cerberus Agent than Maya Brooks and much cooler as well.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 17:29:00 GMT
Kai Leng is a better Cerberus Agent than Maya Brooks and much cooler as well.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 6, 2020 17:46:22 GMT
Kai Leng is a better Cerberus Agent than Maya Brooks and much cooler as well. well it doesn't take much to better than Maya Brooks as a Cerberus Agent.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 17:55:01 GMT
well it doesn't take much to better than Maya Brooks as a Cerberus Agent. Yeah. You're correct.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 6, 2020 18:04:32 GMT
Frankly, I don't treat any of the events in any related media canon, unless referenced in the games. Jack fighting off Kai Leng and Brooks? Never happened. Brooks stealing the Shepard clone from Miranda? Never happened. Brooks being this super cool, super skillful Cerberus agent? Never happened. The franchise is better off that way. Kai Leng is a better Cerberus Agent than Maya Brooks and much cooler as well. One way to find out is to remake the trilogy having both switch roles. Have Brooks play as the so-called assassin while Leng plays as a lap dog to a clone. Would Brooks kill the asari on Thessia instead of having her fly on Kai leng Airlines, which would be Maya Brooks Airlines?
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Post by smilesja on Dec 7, 2020 18:28:41 GMT
I mean if you want to go about Ashley "racist" views, Grunt's immaturity, Jack's mental instability as "mature" go ahead I guess.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 7, 2020 21:41:59 GMT
I mean if you want to go about Ashley "racist" views, Grunt's immaturity, Jack's mental instability as "mature" go ahead I guess. This is a very spicy hot take, my dude.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 8, 2020 19:05:29 GMT
I mean if you want to go about Ashley "racist" views, Grunt's immaturity, Jack's mental instability as "mature" go ahead I guess. I disagree, the fact that Jack can be cured by the almighty power of the penis just shows the quality maturity in the writing.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2020 19:15:39 GMT
I mean if you want to go about Ashley "racist" views, Grunt's immaturity, Jack's mental instability as "mature" go ahead I guess. This is a very spicy hot take, my dude. And calling Andromeda's characters: "High School characters" isn't?
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