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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 25, 2021 10:19:02 GMT
Actually Hackett's dialogue makes sense with the context of ME3 as when Shepard turned in the Normandy over to the Alliance only themselves and Joker were on board as they had let everyone else off else were before returning to Earth.
The colony is in Batarian Space. The Alliance bringing a fleet in would only cause the Batarians to declare war on the Alliance. Given the full might of the Reapers would show up fight fight would be a 3 way battle that ends with the Batarian and Alliance being utterly destroyed. You would decimate an Alliance Fleet, waste resources starting a war between the Batarians and Alliance which would still result in the Reapers doing exactly what they did in the game anyways. The way Arrival works there is no direct evidence of Shepard's involvement to validate a full scale war by the Batarians. Which saves man power and resources.
While it makes sense that Shepard arrives at earth with no one else regardless (before or after SM), it still doesn't make sense that Hackett would let Shepard go just to drop people off. He has not reason too.
As for my scenario - it might not work, depending on how readily Shepard could convince the Batarians that they should evacuate everyone from the system and that the Alliance is coming there to help with the evacuations. Yes, the Batarians would be suspicious of an invasion, but it would be no worse than Shepard trying to get them to evacuate moments before crashing the asteroid into the relay. The Batarians have no reason to trust him then either. As I said, at least they would have had two days to sort it all out before the Reapers arrived because Shepard would not have been knocked out cold by Kenson.
There is no reason why Shepard would insist on seeing the artifact before raising the alarm on a Reaper invasion. As I said, Kenson is a trusted friend of Hackett and Shepard seeing a Reaper artifact proves nothing. The cipher enables him to understand Prothean, not Reaper. His/her direct exposure to the artifact only risks indoctrination... and he/she knows that already. The proof of Shepard's involvement is in his/her voice on the airwaves as he/she started the message to either warn the Batarians or call the Normandy.
Hackett lets Shepard go because he actually trusts Shepard. Him and Anderson are literally the only 2 people in any position of authority that actually believe and trust Shepard about the Reapers. Why do you think Hackett would come to Shepard asking a personal favor to rescue an old friend who thinks they found a Reaper artifact in the middle of Batarian space were any proof of Alliance actions there could ignite a war between the Hegemony and the Alliance?
Batarians are basically space North Korea. And extremely isolated race that has a heavily enforced chaste system combined with plenty of propaganda. They make regular slave raids into Alliance space. Balak literally justifies dropping an asteroid on Terra Nova because the Alliance was given favoratisim by the Council for colonization rights. They would sooner cut off their own arm then accept help from the Alliance. This was actually shown in ME3 were the Hegemony denied they were being attacked and decimated until the Reapers over whelmed them.
Of course Shepard would want to see the artifact to confirm it is Reaper in origin. He and Ash/Kaiden are the Alliance experts on Reapers. You don't just take an unconfirmed statement as word for a military action. Kenson might be Hackett's closest ally but if the Alliance High Command brought Hackett forward to ask him to validate his actions they wouldn't accept that a close friend said so without proof. Shepard with the SR-2 could sneak in and free Kenson. Then bring what ever proof she has back to Hackett which would give him a solid reason to engage in any actions needed.
If Hackett is going to risk a war and waste resources and man power while the Reapers are still coming he needs unquestionable proof to validate this move.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 25, 2021 12:01:30 GMT
My biggest beef with Arrival is that there is no real opportunity given for Shepard to evacuate the system. I also think a call should have been made to the Alliance right after rescuing Kenson to bring in a fleet to defend that system and meet the Reapers head on. She is apparently a trusted friend of Hackett's and Shepard should have taken her at her "first" word about an imminent invasion in that system even without verifying the artifact. What's Shepard going to verify anyways... the cipher taught him/her to think like a Prothean, not like a Reaper. Verifying that the artifact exists could be done as the fleet was en route to the system. Sure, the Batarians would likely also go to "defcon 1" to defend against an apparent invasion by the Alliance, which would mean they would be better prepared to defend their system and start evacuating civilians as soon as it became apparent what was happening. Shepard could have also placed that call from the shuttle. They would have then had two days to evacuate the system and then blow the relay. As for my scenario - it might not work, depending on how readily Shepard could convince the Batarians that they should evacuate everyone from the system and that the Alliance is coming there to help with the evacuations. Yes, the Batarians would be suspicious of an invasion, but it would be no worse than Shepard trying to get them to evacuate moments before crashing the asteroid into the relay. The Batarians have no reason to trust him then either. As I said, at least they would have had two days to sort it all out before the Reapers arrived because Shepard would not have been knocked out cold by Kenson. There is no reason why Shepard would insist on seeing the artifact before raising the alarm on a Reaper invasion. As I said, Kenson is a trusted friend of Hackett and Shepard seeing a Reaper artifact proves nothing. The cipher enables him to understand Prothean, not Reaper. His/her direct exposure to the artifact only risks indoctrination... and he/she knows that already. The proof of Shepard's involvement is in his/her voice on the airwaves as he/she started the message to either warn the Batarians or call the Normandy. You said the same thing on one of your previous deleted accounts, did you not? I don't agree with any of what you posted. Lets say Shepard informs Hackett about what Kenson says. How long would it take to assemble a fleet then have it travel to the Bahak system? By the time it arrives, there likely won't be enough time to evacuate everyone. On top of that, the Batarians respond by firing at the fleet because they will assume they're being invaded. How long could they have reinforcements show up vs the Alliance having reinforcements show up? It's possible the Alliance fleet might retreat to avoid taking more losses. Who would talk to the Batarians to let them know about a reaper invasion? That will take time. Most likely that Batarian(s) may want to see this artifact to confirm what he's been told. How long will that take? By the time any convincing happens the reapers show up. What have you accomplished? Nothing. Lets assume everything works smoothly. The reapers show up. What is the Alliance and batarians going to do? Say their last prayers before being blown away? That would be the most likely outcome. If Hackett is with the fleet, t'soni doesn't get access to the archives. Cerberus finds the plans to the device. Reapers harvest this cycle because they controlled TIM who won't be able to control the reapers. One scenario that might work, is to let the asteroid hit the relay just as the reapers show up destroying however many of them as possible. Would the Batarians be able to evacuate everyone? No.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 14:29:05 GMT
My biggest beef with Arrival is that there is no real opportunity given for Shepard to evacuate the system. I also think a call should have been made to the Alliance right after rescuing Kenson to bring in a fleet to defend that system and meet the Reapers head on. She is apparently a trusted friend of Hackett's and Shepard should have taken her at her "first" word about an imminent invasion in that system even without verifying the artifact. What's Shepard going to verify anyways... the cipher taught him/her to think like a Prothean, not like a Reaper. Verifying that the artifact exists could be done as the fleet was en route to the system. Sure, the Batarians would likely also go to "defcon 1" to defend against an apparent invasion by the Alliance, which would mean they would be better prepared to defend their system and start evacuating civilians as soon as it became apparent what was happening. Shepard could have also placed that call from the shuttle. They would have then had two days to evacuate the system and then blow the relay. As for my scenario - it might not work, depending on how readily Shepard could convince the Batarians that they should evacuate everyone from the system and that the Alliance is coming there to help with the evacuations. Yes, the Batarians would be suspicious of an invasion, but it would be no worse than Shepard trying to get them to evacuate moments before crashing the asteroid into the relay. The Batarians have no reason to trust him then either. As I said, at least they would have had two days to sort it all out before the Reapers arrived because Shepard would not have been knocked out cold by Kenson. There is no reason why Shepard would insist on seeing the artifact before raising the alarm on a Reaper invasion. As I said, Kenson is a trusted friend of Hackett and Shepard seeing a Reaper artifact proves nothing. The cipher enables him to understand Prothean, not Reaper. His/her direct exposure to the artifact only risks indoctrination... and he/she knows that already. The proof of Shepard's involvement is in his/her voice on the airwaves as he/she started the message to either warn the Batarians or call the Normandy. You said the same thing on one of your previous deleted accounts, did you not? I don't agree with any of what you posted. Lets say Shepard informs Hackett about what Kenson says. How long would it take to assemble a fleet then have it travel to the Bahak system? By the time it arrives, there likely won't be enough time to evacuate everyone. On top of that, the Batarians respond by firing at the fleet because they will assume they're being invaded. How long could they have reinforcements show up vs the Alliance having reinforcements show up? It's possible the Alliance fleet might retreat to avoid taking more losses. Who would talk to the Batarians to let them know about a reaper invasion? That will take time. Most likely that Batarian(s) may want to see this artifact to confirm what he's been told. How long will that take? By the time any convincing happens the reapers show up. What have you accomplished? Nothing. Lets assume everything works smoothly. The reapers show up. What is the Alliance and batarians going to do? Say their last prayers before being blown away? That would be the most likely outcome. If Hackett is with the fleet, t'soni doesn't get access to the archives. Cerberus finds the plans to the device. Reapers harvest this cycle because they controlled TIM who won't be able to control the reapers. One scenario that might work, is to let the asteroid hit the relay just as the reapers show up destroying however many of them as possible. Would the Batarians be able to evacuate everyone? No. We don't agree on much... that's nothing new... and you keep repeating yourself too... over and over and over again. At least I took a good long break from it. Oh, and fair warning... I'll probably take another good long break as soon as I'm done playing through LE. I'll probably have nothing new to say, so I don't see the point in sticking around all the time. I'll be off enjoying other games and we'll see if I'm still able to come back again whenever they release another new ME game.
ETA: However, from the one thread in the Future Mass Effect section... it looks like either Bioware is trying to get into television or Netflix is trying to get into gaming... sounds like the next ME will be an "interactive television series."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 16:14:44 GMT
While it makes sense that Shepard arrives at earth with no one else regardless (before or after SM), it still doesn't make sense that Hackett would let Shepard go just to drop people off. He has not reason too.
As for my scenario - it might not work, depending on how readily Shepard could convince the Batarians that they should evacuate everyone from the system and that the Alliance is coming there to help with the evacuations. Yes, the Batarians would be suspicious of an invasion, but it would be no worse than Shepard trying to get them to evacuate moments before crashing the asteroid into the relay. The Batarians have no reason to trust him then either. As I said, at least they would have had two days to sort it all out before the Reapers arrived because Shepard would not have been knocked out cold by Kenson.
There is no reason why Shepard would insist on seeing the artifact before raising the alarm on a Reaper invasion. As I said, Kenson is a trusted friend of Hackett and Shepard seeing a Reaper artifact proves nothing. The cipher enables him to understand Prothean, not Reaper. His/her direct exposure to the artifact only risks indoctrination... and he/she knows that already. The proof of Shepard's involvement is in his/her voice on the airwaves as he/she started the message to either warn the Batarians or call the Normandy.
Hackett lets Shepard go because he actually trusts Shepard. Him and Anderson are literally the only 2 people in any position of authority that actually believe and trust Shepard about the Reapers. Why do you think Hackett would come to Shepard asking a personal favor to rescue an old friend who thinks they found a Reaper artifact in the middle of Batarian space were any proof of Alliance actions there could ignite a war between the Hegemony and the Alliance?
Batarians are basically space North Korea. And extremely isolated race that has a heavily enforced chaste system combined with plenty of propaganda. They make regular slave raids into Alliance space. Balak literally justifies dropping an asteroid on Terra Nova because the Alliance was given favoratisim by the Council for colonization rights. They would sooner cut off their own arm then accept help from the Alliance. This was actually shown in ME3 were the Hegemony denied they were being attacked and decimated until the Reapers over whelmed them.
Of course Shepard would want to see the artifact to confirm it is Reaper in origin. He and Ash/Kaiden are the Alliance experts on Reapers. You don't just take an unconfirmed statement as word for a military action. Kenson might be Hackett's closest ally but if the Alliance High Command brought Hackett forward to ask him to validate his actions they wouldn't accept that a close friend said so without proof. Shepard with the SR-2 could sneak in and free Kenson. Then bring what ever proof she has back to Hackett which would give him a solid reason to engage in any actions needed.
If Hackett is going to risk a war and waste resources and man power while the Reapers are still coming he needs unquestionable proof to validate this move.
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 25, 2021 16:29:07 GMT
The main reason why I think Arrival makes no sense before the SM is because at the end of the SM, we see the reapers very far out in dark space, even though if Arrival already happened, they should already be in the Milky Way.
Otherwise, it'd be fairly ok either way.
Oh, and no, the reapers don't just attack through "all relays" in ME3, they have a rpetty well defined path through the galaxy, starting out in batarian space (which is close to where they came in) and then moving on through Alliance sace, turian space, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 16:50:34 GMT
The main reason why I think Arrival makes no sense before the SM is because at the end of the SM, we see the reapers very far out in dark space, even though if Arrival already happened, they should already be in the Milky Way. Otherwise, it'd be fairly ok either way. Oh, and no, the reapers don't just attack through "all relays" in ME3, they have a rpetty well defined path through the galaxy, starting out in batarian space (which is close to where they came in) and then moving on through Alliance sace, turian space, etc. 1) If Arrival was already done, then they were allegedly stopped by Shepard by blowing the Alpha Relay... so , no, they would not already be in the Milky Way already regardless. It takes them 6 months to get back into the Milky Way.
2) Also, dark space is dark space... how do you know how far out they are at that point. Dark space has no light references (stars) to make maps... that's why it's called "dark space."
3) I just started a ME3LE playthrough using the comic and there is a a piece of dialogue that clearly says they came in through all relays. I don't remember who exactly said and whether it was in the comic itself or in Shepard's talk with Anderson or the Council at the start, but it was there. I can't even say if it was a change because I had never used the comic before. Surprised me, yes it did. If you wish, I'll start another the same way and get back to you as to who said and when (I don't do streaming, though, so I can't give you video evidence of it.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 25, 2021 16:53:45 GMT
The main reason why I think Arrival makes no sense before the SM is because at the end of the SM, we see the reapers very far out in dark space, even though if Arrival already happened, they should already be in the Milky Way. Otherwise, it'd be fairly ok either way. Oh, and no, the reapers don't just attack through "all relays" in ME3, they have a rpetty well defined path through the galaxy, starting out in batarian space (which is close to where they came in) and then moving on through Alliance sace, turian space, etc. 1) If Arrival was already done, then they were allegedly stopped by Shepard by blowing the Alpha Relay... so , no, they would not already be in the Milky Way already regardless. It takes them 6 months to get back into the Milky Way.
2) Also, dark space is dark space... how do you know how far out they are at that point. Dark space has no light references (stars) to make maps... that's why it's called "dark space."
3) I just started a ME3LE playthrough using the comic and there is a a piece of dialogue that clearly says they came in through all relays. I don't remember who exactly said and whether it was in the comic itself or in Shepard's talk with Anderson or the Council at the start, but it was there. I can't even say if it was a change because I had never used the comic before. Surprised me, yes it did. If you wish, I'll start another the same way and get back to you as to who said and when (I don't do streaming, though, so I can't give you video evidence of it.)
We do have references though. The cutscene shows how far out they are from the Milky Way, the lore states they can do 30 ly/day, etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 16:59:22 GMT
1) If Arrival was already done, then they were allegedly stopped by Shepard by blowing the Alpha Relay... so , no, they would not already be in the Milky Way already regardless. It takes them 6 months to get back into the Milky Way.
2) Also, dark space is dark space... how do you know how far out they are at that point. Dark space has no light references (stars) to make maps... that's why it's called "dark space."
3) I just started a ME3LE playthrough using the comic and there is a a piece of dialogue that clearly says they came in through all relays. I don't remember who exactly said and whether it was in the comic itself or in Shepard's talk with Anderson or the Council at the start, but it was there. I can't even say if it was a change because I had never used the comic before. Surprised me, yes it did. If you wish, I'll start another the same way and get back to you as to who said and when (I don't do streaming, though, so I can't give you video evidence of it.)
We do have references though. The cutscene shows how far out they are from the Milky Way, the lore states they can do 30 ly/day, etc. Again... regardless of whether you do Arrival before or after the SM, it takes 6 months for the Reapers to re-enter the Milky Way. If their distance out in dark space makes sense after the SM, it makes sense before it. You stopped them from entering the Milky Way. So what if they had to turn around and go back out to their relay in dark space after you stopped them to be wherever they are shown at the end of the game. They are no closer to getting into the Milky Way regardless of when Arrival is done... they are 6 months away, period. You have no idea where the relay in dark space was that connected to the Alpha one here. You have no idea whether or not they have additional relays in dark space and just have to now FTL to get to different one of those.
If it's just a matter of FTL'ing their way into the galaxy, they never had a need for any relays at all. The galaxy has no walls.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 25, 2021 17:09:09 GMT
We do have references though. The cutscene shows how far out they are from the Milky Way, the lore states they can do 30 ly/day, etc. Again... regardless of whether you do Arrival before or after the SM, it takes 6 months for the Reapers to re-enter the Milky Way. If their distance out in dark space makes sense after the SM, it makes sense before it. You stopped them from entering the Milky Way. So what if they had to turn around and go back out into dark space after you stopped them to be wherever they are shown at the end of the game. They are no closer to getting into the Milky Way regardless of when Arrival is done... they are 6 months away, period. You have no idea where the relay in dark space was that connected to the Alpha one here. Except ME2 itself takes a few months, and then there is the six month gap between ME2 and ME3. If you do it before the endgame of ME2, it doesn't make sense timeline-wise. Why would they turn around just to come back in? They even say in Arrival that they would just fly using traditional FTL until they reach the next Mass Relay giving us those extra few months. And they weren't using a Dark Space Relay to get to the Alpha one. Or rather there is no evidence of that. Look, you can play it how you want but it's meant to e after defeating the Collectors. Same with LotSB, since yes you can immediately start the quest with Liara but why does Shepard know that she's hunting him before she ever tells them (even Cerberus thinks she's with him until that conversation but now oh they knew beforehand).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 17:13:58 GMT
Again... regardless of whether you do Arrival before or after the SM, it takes 6 months for the Reapers to re-enter the Milky Way. If their distance out in dark space makes sense after the SM, it makes sense before it. You stopped them from entering the Milky Way. So what if they had to turn around and go back out into dark space after you stopped them to be wherever they are shown at the end of the game. They are no closer to getting into the Milky Way regardless of when Arrival is done... they are 6 months away, period. You have no idea where the relay in dark space was that connected to the Alpha one here. Except ME2 itself takes a few months, and then there is the six month gap between ME2 and ME3. If you do it before the endgame of ME2, it doesn't make sense timeline-wise. Why would they turn around just to come back in? They even say in Arrival that they would just fly using traditional FTL until they reach the next Mass Relay giving us those extra few months. And they weren't using a Dark Space Relay to get to the Alpha one. Or rather there is no evidence of that. Look, you can play it how you want but it's meant to e after defeating the Collectors. Same with LotSB, since yes you can immediately start the quest with Liara but why does Shepard know that she's hunting him before she ever tells them (even Cerberus thinks she's with him until that conversation but now oh they knew beforehand). It doesn't matter. It's 6 months... Shepard spends in detention regardless. That is clearly stated in ME3. Shepard tells Chakwas "It's been 6 months doctor..." So, if he/she heads to earth right after the SM or right after Arrivl, it makes no different. Shepard spends 6 months in detention. The Reapers are always 6 months away from invading after ME2 ends... regardless of how the player ends ME2.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 25, 2021 18:00:04 GMT
I do Arrival after defeating the collectors. The collectors are the immediate threat that has to be stopped.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 25, 2021 18:05:58 GMT
The main reason why I think Arrival makes no sense before the SM is because at the end of the SM, we see the reapers very far out in dark space, even though if Arrival already happened, they should already be in the Milky Way. Otherwise, it'd be fairly ok either way. Oh, and no, the reapers don't just attack through "all relays" in ME3, they have a rpetty well defined path through the galaxy, starting out in batarian space (which is close to where they came in) and then moving on through Alliance sace, turian space, etc. 1) If Arrival was already done, then they were allegedly stopped by Shepard by blowing the Alpha Relay... so , no, they would not already be in the Milky Way already regardless. It takes them 6 months to get back into the Milky Way.
2) Also, dark space is dark space... how do you know how far out they are at that point. Dark space has no light references (stars) to make maps... that's why it's called "dark space."
3) I just started a ME3LE playthrough using the comic and there is a a piece of dialogue that clearly says they came in through all relays. I don't remember who exactly said and whether it was in the comic itself or in Shepard's talk with Anderson or the Council at the start, but it was there. I can't even say if it was a change because I had never used the comic before. Surprised me, yes it did. If you wish, I'll start another the same way and get back to you as to who said and when (I don't do streaming, though, so I can't give you video evidence of it.)
Ok, so one of us clearly completely misunderstood the course of events in Arrival (and it might be me, not 1005 sure). Here is how I interpret the events:
The codex for the Alpha Relay states: "Alpha usually sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and even across a great distance to the Citadel."
This is why the reapers want it. Because it allows them direct and immediate access to the Citadel just like they would have had if Saren and Sovereign succeeded at the end of ME1. They could take out galactic leadership and control the entire relay network in a surprise attack as per their original plan. To get to the Bahak system itself however, they are flying in from their position in dark space via conventional FTL. We know that they are not using some relay in dark space because Kenson says that Object Rho reacts to reaper proximity and that the pulses it sends increase in frequency as the reapers get closer (which is how they came up with the arrival clock). This only works if the reapers approach with constant speed, which would not be the case if they "relayed" in. So we know that they are flying into the galaxy "the old fashioned way".
The point of Shepard destroying the Alpha Relay is that the reapers cannot use it to leave the Bahak system quickly (and reach the Citadel immediately). After Shepard destroys that relay, the reapers have to fly to the next one with conventional FTL, which takes them about 6 months. I admit, this is a fairly long time. As the reaper's FTL drives can do about 30ly/day and since we know they don't have to discharge, they should be able to fly about 5000ly in those 6 moths, which is quite the distance (just looking at the galaxy map, the closest relay should be much closer than that). However, we don't know for sure that they spent all this time flying, maybe they also did other stuff in order to prepare themselves for the longer drawn out war with the organics, now that they couldn't just surprise attack the Citadel anymore. Maybe they were waiting for more of their forces to arrive that were lagging behind. Who knows.
In any case, at the end of Arrival, the reapers should be near the Bahak system inside the Milky Way because that clock is almost down to zero. However, at the end of the main game, we see a shot of them with the MW in the background and IIRC, on the old BW forums someone even did an approximate calculation as to how far out they should be there, based on the angle of the MW we can see in that shot (although that is obviously also a matter of field of view of the camera lens, etc.). Bottom line, they should be further out than the Bahak system (they are not even in the plane of the disk in that shot).
Now, I am not trying to convert anyone or anything, if you like to do Arrival earlier, that's perfectly fine with me. It's a nitpicky point, I'll be the first to admit but I just wanted to explain that this is why - to me - Arrival only makes sense after the main game is done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 18:58:10 GMT
1) If Arrival was already done, then they were allegedly stopped by Shepard by blowing the Alpha Relay... so , no, they would not already be in the Milky Way already regardless. It takes them 6 months to get back into the Milky Way.
2) Also, dark space is dark space... how do you know how far out they are at that point. Dark space has no light references (stars) to make maps... that's why it's called "dark space."
3) I just started a ME3LE playthrough using the comic and there is a a piece of dialogue that clearly says they came in through all relays. I don't remember who exactly said and whether it was in the comic itself or in Shepard's talk with Anderson or the Council at the start, but it was there. I can't even say if it was a change because I had never used the comic before. Surprised me, yes it did. If you wish, I'll start another the same way and get back to you as to who said and when (I don't do streaming, though, so I can't give you video evidence of it.)
Ok, so one of us clearly completely misunderstood the course of events in Arrival (and it might be me, not 1005 sure). Here is how I interpret the events:
The codex for the Alpha Relay states: "Alpha usually sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and even across a great distance to the Citadel."
This is why the reapers want it. Because it allows them direct and immediate access to the Citadel just like they would have had if Saren and Sovereign succeeded at the end of ME1. They could take out galactic leadership and control the entire relay network in a surprise attack as per their original plan. To get to the Bahak system itself however, they are flying in from their position in dark space via conventional FTL. We know that they are not using some relay in dark space because Kenson says that Object Rho reacts to reaper proximity and that the pulses it sends increase in frequency as the reapers get closer (which is how they came up with the arrival clock). This only works if the reapers approach with constant speed, which would not be the case if they "relayed" in. So we know that they are flying into the galaxy "the old fashioned way".
The point of Shepard destroying the Alpha Relay is that the reapers cannot use it to leave the Bahak system quickly (and reach the Citadel immediately). After Shepard destroys that relay, the reapers have to fly to the next one with conventional FTL, which takes them about 6 months. I admit, this is a fairly long time. As the reaper's FTL drives can do about 30ly/day and since we know they don't have to discharge, they should be able to fly about 5000ly in those 6 moths, which is quite the distance (just looking at the galaxy map, the closest relay should be much closer than that). However, we don't know for sure that they spent all this time flying, maybe they also did other stuff in order to prepare themselves for the longer drawn out war with the organics, now that they couldn't just surprise attack the Citadel anymore. Maybe they were waiting for more of their forces to arrive that were lagging behind. Who knows.
In any case, at the end of Arrival, the reapers should be near the Bahak system inside the Milky Way because that clock is almost down to zero. However, at the end of the main game, we see a shot of them with the MW in the background and IIRC, on the old BW forums someone even did an approximate calculation as to how far out they should be there, based on the angle of the MW we can see in that shot (although that is obviously also a matter of field of view of the camera lens, etc.). Bottom line, they should be further out than the Bahak system (they are not even in the plane of the disk in that shot).
Now, I am not trying to convert anyone or anything, if you like to do Arrival earlier, that's perfectly fine with me. It's a nitpicky point, I'll be the first to admit but I just wanted to explain that this is why - to me - Arrival only makes sense after the main game is done.
How do you know the pulsing in the Reaper artifact is not based on their travel towards a relay while in dark space that would, once accessed on their side, connect them to the Alpha Relay enabling them to come through it essentially instantaneously. There is nothing that indicates that the pulsing is reliant on them using FTL within the galaxy itself.
Furthermore, the Reapers are never shown to be inside the Bahak system. They are to come through the Alpha Relay and destroying the relay stops them... so they absolutely had to start at some other relay. If they FTL'd to the Bahak system, wouldn't they have just fired directly on the asteroid with Shepard still on it? Wouldn't we have seen them amassing in the skies above the asteroid since we are literally only minutes away from them using the relay? Shouldn't Normandy's sensors have picked them up at FTL? How is it then that Joker can, while flying at sub-light, rescue Shepard and then fly to and through the relay before the Reapers can at FTL? Wouldn't they have been seen by or attacked the systems most neighboring the Bahak one while traveling inside the galaxy for six months... before suddenly showing up at Earth... and Batarian space... and Turian space... and been pressing on the boarders of Salarian space and Asari space... all in the time it takes Shepard to get to the Citadel from earth to meet with the Council?
What I believe the Wiki is suggesting is that they had to first enter the Milky Way via the Alpha Relay (using it's primary partner relay in dark space)... and then there would be a process in order to make the adjustments that would connect it to the 16 more relays within the Milky Way. Otherwise, Kenson's team should have been making the adjustments instead to connect the Alpha relay to a relay out in dark space... opening the gate for the Reapers. There is no reference to them doing that sort of thing.
Instead Shepard uses that relay, without said adjustments, to escape the Bahak system to whatever other relay the character wants to go after doing the DLC. Shepard also, presumably, uses that same relay to enter the Bahak system before rescuing Kenson. Instead, there should have been 2 relays in the Bahak system (much like in the Omega system with the regular Omega relay and the Omega 4 relay). It would have been more consistent, if Shepard had been shown exiting the system via a different relay before the Alpha relay blows up... but again, that's not what we are shown.
It still makes no difference however you headcanon it. ME3 begins 6 months after Shepard brings Normandy back to earth... regardless of when Arrival is done or whether it is even done at all.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 25, 2021 19:06:30 GMT
Ok, so one of us clearly completely misunderstood the course of events in Arrival (and it might be me, not 1005 sure). Here is how I interpret the events:
The codex for the Alpha Relay states: "Alpha usually sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and even across a great distance to the Citadel."
This is why the reapers want it. Because it allows them direct and immediate access to the Citadel just like they would have had if Saren and Sovereign succeeded at the end of ME1. They could take out galactic leadership and control the entire relay network in a surprise attack as per their original plan. To get to the Bahak system itself however, they are flying in from their position in dark space via conventional FTL. We know that they are not using some relay in dark space because Kenson says that Object Rho reacts to reaper proximity and that the pulses it sends increase in frequency as the reapers get closer (which is how they came up with the arrival clock). This only works if the reapers approach with constant speed, which would not be the case if they "relayed" in. So we know that they are flying into the galaxy "the old fashioned way".
The point of Shepard destroying the Alpha Relay is that the reapers cannot use it to leave the Bahak system quickly (and reach the Citadel immediately). After Shepard destroys that relay, the reapers have to fly to the next one with conventional FTL, which takes them about 6 months. I admit, this is a fairly long time. As the reaper's FTL drives can do about 30ly/day and since we know they don't have to discharge, they should be able to fly about 5000ly in those 6 moths, which is quite the distance (just looking at the galaxy map, the closest relay should be much closer than that). However, we don't know for sure that they spent all this time flying, maybe they also did other stuff in order to prepare themselves for the longer drawn out war with the organics, now that they couldn't just surprise attack the Citadel anymore. Maybe they were waiting for more of their forces to arrive that were lagging behind. Who knows.
In any case, at the end of Arrival, the reapers should be near the Bahak system inside the Milky Way because that clock is almost down to zero. However, at the end of the main game, we see a shot of them with the MW in the background and IIRC, on the old BW forums someone even did an approximate calculation as to how far out they should be there, based on the angle of the MW we can see in that shot (although that is obviously also a matter of field of view of the camera lens, etc.). Bottom line, they should be further out than the Bahak system (they are not even in the plane of the disk in that shot).
Now, I am not trying to convert anyone or anything, if you like to do Arrival earlier, that's perfectly fine with me. It's a nitpicky point, I'll be the first to admit but I just wanted to explain that this is why - to me - Arrival only makes sense after the main game is done.
How do you know the pulsing in the Reaper artifact is not based on their travel towards a relay while in dark space that would, once accessed on their side, connect them to the Alpha Relay enabling them to come through it essentially instantaneously. There is nothing that indicates that the pulsing is reliant on them using FTL within the galaxy itself.
Furthermore, the Reapers are never shown to be inside the Bahak system. They are to come through the Alpha Relay and destroying the relay stops them... so they absolutely had to start at some other relay. If they FTL'd to the Bahak system, wouldn't they have just fired directly on the asteroid with Shepard still on it? Wouldn't we have seen them amassing in the skies above the asteroid since we are literally only minutes away from them using the relay? Shouldn't Normandy's sensors have picked them up at FTL? How is it then that Joker can, while flying at sub-light, rescue Shepard and then fly to and through the relay before the Reapers can at FTL? Wouldn't they have been seen by or attacked the systems most neighboring the Bahak one while traveling inside the galaxy for six months... before suddenly showing up at Earth... and Batarian space... and Turian space... and been pressing on the boarders of Salarian space and Asari space... all in the time it takes Shepard to get to the Citadel from earth to meet with the Council?
What I believe the Wiki is suggesting is that they had to first enter the Milky Way via the Alpha Relay (using it's primary partner relay in dark space)... and then there would be a process in order to make the adjustments that would connect it to the 16 more relays within the Milky Way. Otherwise, Kenson's team should have been making the adjustments instead to connect the Alpha relay to rely out in dark space... opening the gate for the Reapers. There is no reference to them doing that sort of thing.
Instead Shepard uses that relay, without said adjustments, to escape the Bahak system to whatever other relay the character wants to go after doing the DLC. Shepard also, presumably, uses that same relay to enter the Bahak system before rescuing Kenson. Instead, there should have been 2 relays in the Bahak system (much like in the Omega system with the regular Omega relay and the Omega 4 relay). It would have been more consistent, if Shepard had been shown exiting the system via a different relay before the Alpha relay blows up... but again, that's not what we are shown.
It still makes no difference however you headcanon it. ME3 begins 6 months after Shepard brings Normandy back to earth... regardless of when Arrival is done or whether it is even done at all.
I guess it is possible that object Rho could pick up their proximity to a relay in dark space but why should the reapers have to fly to a relay in dark space? (Or rather why would they have flown away from it in the first place since there is nothing in dark space presumably?)
The reapers could not fire on Shepard on the asteroid because they were not there yet. The clock projects when they'd arrive. Since it is not at 0 yet, they are still in FTL flight at the time the Bahak relay explodes.
The Normandy would not have picked up the reapers since there are no FTL sensors. You cannot pick up a ship that flies towards you at FTL speeds until it drops out of FTL.
The Bahak system itself is (as seen on the galaxy map) on the very outer edge of the galaxy. Presumably, there is no inhabited system or system with a relay further out than the Bahak system. So the reapers do not attack any "Neighburing" systems (apart from the fact that even the closest system would be lightyears away).
As for them traveling through the mikly way for 6 months, no, they wouldn't necessarily have been seen. The codex mentions that traveling between clusters with conventional FTL travel can take months or even years. This is why the relays are so important in the first place. Since the Bahak relay was destroyed, the reapers would have to travel through uninhabited space to the next relay. This next relay would also be in batarian space and we know that the reapers wiped out the batarians before they came to Alliance space/Earth, so that tracks pretty well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 19:25:16 GMT
How do you know the pulsing in the Reaper artifact is not based on their travel towards a relay while in dark space that would, once accessed on their side, connect them to the Alpha Relay enabling them to come through it essentially instantaneously. There is nothing that indicates that the pulsing is reliant on them using FTL within the galaxy itself.
Furthermore, the Reapers are never shown to be inside the Bahak system. They are to come through the Alpha Relay and destroying the relay stops them... so they absolutely had to start at some other relay. If they FTL'd to the Bahak system, wouldn't they have just fired directly on the asteroid with Shepard still on it? Wouldn't we have seen them amassing in the skies above the asteroid since we are literally only minutes away from them using the relay? Shouldn't Normandy's sensors have picked them up at FTL? How is it then that Joker can, while flying at sub-light, rescue Shepard and then fly to and through the relay before the Reapers can at FTL? Wouldn't they have been seen by or attacked the systems most neighboring the Bahak one while traveling inside the galaxy for six months... before suddenly showing up at Earth... and Batarian space... and Turian space... and been pressing on the boarders of Salarian space and Asari space... all in the time it takes Shepard to get to the Citadel from earth to meet with the Council?
What I believe the Wiki is suggesting is that they had to first enter the Milky Way via the Alpha Relay (using it's primary partner relay in dark space)... and then there would be a process in order to make the adjustments that would connect it to the 16 more relays within the Milky Way. Otherwise, Kenson's team should have been making the adjustments instead to connect the Alpha relay to rely out in dark space... opening the gate for the Reapers. There is no reference to them doing that sort of thing.
Instead Shepard uses that relay, without said adjustments, to escape the Bahak system to whatever other relay the character wants to go after doing the DLC. Shepard also, presumably, uses that same relay to enter the Bahak system before rescuing Kenson. Instead, there should have been 2 relays in the Bahak system (much like in the Omega system with the regular Omega relay and the Omega 4 relay). It would have been more consistent, if Shepard had been shown exiting the system via a different relay before the Alpha relay blows up... but again, that's not what we are shown.
It still makes no difference however you headcanon it. ME3 begins 6 months after Shepard brings Normandy back to earth... regardless of when Arrival is done or whether it is even done at all.
I guess it is possible that object Rho could pick up their proximity to a relay in dark space but why should the reapers have to fly to a relay in dark space? (Or rather why would they have flown away from it in the first place since there is nothing in dark space presumably?)
The reapers could not fire on Shepard on the asteroid because they were not there yet. The clock projects when they'd arrive. Since it is not at 0 yet, they are still in FTL flight at the time the Bahak relay explodes.
The Normandy would not have picked up the reapers since there are no FTL sensors. You cannot pick up a ship that flies towards you at FTL speeds until it drops out of FTL.
Dark space is still space... it has distance... it's just dark. That is, telescopes, etc. from earth don't detect light sources there, so it is believed to be "empty space." We "see" galaxies because of the concentration of stars that emit light and we can use other wavelengths to detect certain gases, so basically, "dark space" is the space we observe between the galaxies we can see. What's really there? We don't really know.
The relay network is a mythical transport system.
Shepard (speaking about the stealth system). "Why doesn't it work with faster than light travel." Adams: "FTL blue-shifts our emissions... so they can't be captured in the sinks." This conversation implies that Normandy must be sub-light to be undetectable by sensors and it becomes detectable when it enters FTL flight.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 19:47:49 GMT
I do Arrival after defeating the collectors. The collectors are the immediate threat that has to be stopped. My Shepard has believed the Reapers to be the immediate threat seeing seeing the vision on Eden Prime... and will readily drop the recruitment of team members to stop the collectors in order to investigate what he is told is "evidence of an imminent Reaper invasion" (Hackett's exact words). Nothing else matters. For all he knows, the Collectors are still just targeting "a few human colonies." He only has TIM's word that the losses number in the "hundreds of thousands" and TIM only said he " believes the Reapers are involved"... and my Shepard doesn't really trust TIM.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 25, 2021 19:53:14 GMT
Hackett lets Shepard go because he actually trusts Shepard. Him and Anderson are literally the only 2 people in any position of authority that actually believe and trust Shepard about the Reapers. Why do you think Hackett would come to Shepard asking a personal favor to rescue an old friend who thinks they found a Reaper artifact in the middle of Batarian space were any proof of Alliance actions there could ignite a war between the Hegemony and the Alliance?
Batarians are basically space North Korea. And extremely isolated race that has a heavily enforced chaste system combined with plenty of propaganda. They make regular slave raids into Alliance space. Balak literally justifies dropping an asteroid on Terra Nova because the Alliance was given favoratisim by the Council for colonization rights. They would sooner cut off their own arm then accept help from the Alliance. This was actually shown in ME3 were the Hegemony denied they were being attacked and decimated until the Reapers over whelmed them.
Of course Shepard would want to see the artifact to confirm it is Reaper in origin. He and Ash/Kaiden are the Alliance experts on Reapers. You don't just take an unconfirmed statement as word for a military action. Kenson might be Hackett's closest ally but if the Alliance High Command brought Hackett forward to ask him to validate his actions they wouldn't accept that a close friend said so without proof. Shepard with the SR-2 could sneak in and free Kenson. Then bring what ever proof she has back to Hackett which would give him a solid reason to engage in any actions needed.
If Hackett is going to risk a war and waste resources and man power while the Reapers are still coming he needs unquestionable proof to validate this move.
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
1. The Citadel Relay is a direct tie in location to dark space so the Reapers can jump in instantly to the Citadel from their position there. 2. It does not break ME 1 lore. The Reapers without the Citadel Relay have to then fly into the MW at a normal speed and then use the Alpha Relay to go into the rest of the galaxy from there. But as the DLC says the Reapers are going to arrive anyways, and then it will be a matter of time before they get to the next relay and enter through there instead...dialogue stated very plainly during the Arrival DLC.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 25, 2021 19:57:08 GMT
I do Arrival after defeating the collectors. The collectors are the immediate threat that has to be stopped. My Shepard has believed the Reapers to be the immediate threat seeing seeing the vision on Eden Prime... and will readily drop the recruitment of team members to stop the collectors in order to investigate what he is told is proof of an upcoming Reaper invasion. Nothing else matters. For all he knows, the Collectors are still just targeting "a few human colonies." He only has TIM's word that the losses number in the "hundreds of thousands" and TIM only said he " believes the Reapers are involved"... and my Shepard doesn't really trust TIM. This does rely on a matter of timing though...when exactly does your Shepard do the Arrival? Because TIMs logic on the face of it seems to track if only a little from the beginning. And: 1. During Horizon we know they have Reaper conversion tech to make Husks considering we fight Husks. 2. They also use the same encryption protocols as Reaper ships and a 'Reaper IFF" is good enough to penetrate the Omega 4 relay and get to attack their base. Both are compelling reasons to find out that they are connected to the Reapers. Both we find out relatively early in the game and Arrival does not even become available until after Horizon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 20:03:36 GMT
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
1. The Citadel Relay is a direct tie in location to dark space so the Reapers can jump in instantly to the Citadel from their position there. 2. It does not break ME 1 lore. The Reapers without the Citadel Relay have to then fly into the MW at a normal speed and then use the Alpha Relay to go into the rest of the galaxy from there. But as the DLC says the Reapers are going to arrive anyways, and then it will be a matter of time before they get to the next relay and enter through there instead...dialogue stated very plainly during the Arrival DLC. If they are in the Bahak system in order to access the Alpha Relay to get to other points in the galaxy... again, Why aren't they visible in the skies above the asteroid when we are fighting the mechs? They are "literally minutes" from using the Relay. How can Joker beat them to the relay after picking up Shepard. Why don't they just blow Joker out of the sky with their big lasers? In 6 months of travelling to the next relay in the galaxy, they encounter no other galactic life? Six months is a long time to be moving about within a settled galaxy and not be noted by anyone... even Batarians aren't that dumb. How is it that the Reapers aren't destroyed in the explosion of the relay that destroys an entire system... even planets more than "minutes" away from the Relay itself?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 20:08:18 GMT
My Shepard has believed the Reapers to be the immediate threat seeing seeing the vision on Eden Prime... and will readily drop the recruitment of team members to stop the collectors in order to investigate what he is told is proof of an upcoming Reaper invasion. Nothing else matters. For all he knows, the Collectors are still just targeting "a few human colonies." He only has TIM's word that the losses number in the "hundreds of thousands" and TIM only said he " believes the Reapers are involved"... and my Shepard doesn't really trust TIM. This does rely on a matter of timing though...when exactly does your Shepard do the Arrival? Because TIMs logic on the face of it seems to track if only a little from the beginning. And: 1. During Horizon we know they have Reaper conversion tech to make Husks considering we fight Husks. 2. They also use the same encryption protocols as Reaper ships and a 'Reaper IFF" is good enough to penetrate the Omega 4 relay and get to attack their base. Both are compelling reasons to find out that they are connected to the Reapers. Both we find out relatively early in the game and Arrival does not even become available until after Horizon. You haven't even come close to getting the Reaper IFF yet. TIM is still sending you dossiers to find and recruit Tali, Samara, and Thane... and Jacob and Miranda are asking you personal favors to find dad and help her sister relocate... all right after Horizon. Does that sound like the type of urgency that overrides Hackett's "evidence of an imminent Reaper invasion?"
Although the squad mates imply that the husks are proof the collectors are working with the Reapers, I disagree. The geth were the ones creating the husks. Those on Horizon are merely enhanced a bit... so they still could be "geth products" that the Collector bought and brought to help them subdue humans. We still don't really know why they are taking the humans alive.
Furthermore, it's not until 5 missions after Horizon that it is revealed that the Collectors are using Reaper protocols. In the Horizon debrief, TIM just says he's still looking for a way through the Omega 4 relay.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 25, 2021 20:49:25 GMT
I guess it is possible that object Rho could pick up their proximity to a relay in dark space but why should the reapers have to fly to a relay in dark space? (Or rather why would they have flown away from it in the first place since there is nothing in dark space presumably?)
The reapers could not fire on Shepard on the asteroid because they were not there yet. The clock projects when they'd arrive. Since it is not at 0 yet, they are still in FTL flight at the time the Bahak relay explodes.
The Normandy would not have picked up the reapers since there are no FTL sensors. You cannot pick up a ship that flies towards you at FTL speeds until it drops out of FTL.
Dark space is still space... it has distance... it's just dark. That is, telescopes, etc. from earth don't detect light sources there, so it is believed to be "empty space." We "see" galaxies because of the concentration of stars that emit light and we can use other wavelengths to detect certain gases, so basically, "dark space" is the space we observe between the galaxies we can see. What's really there? We don't really know.
The relay network is a mythical transport system.
Shepard (speaking about the stealth system). "Why doesn't it work with faster than light travel." Adams: "FTL blue-shifts our emissions... so they can't be captured in the sinks." This conversation implies that Normandy must be sub-light to be undetectable by sensors and it becomes detectable when it enters FTL flight.
Yes of course it is space. My question is (especially if it is true that the reapers just go there to hibernate undetected) why would they fly away from their relay, which is supposed ot be there? But again, I am not saying it's impossible that they did.
In the conversation with Adams, they are talking about what happens when the ship emerges from or goes into FTL. From the Codex entry on space combat: "Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them [...]" You probably even detect light coming of a ship flying FTL but since the ship is flying, you know, faster than light, the ship will be there before you can detect the light it emits during the flight, effectively making it undetectable in advance of its arrival.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 21:51:35 GMT
Dark space is still space... it has distance... it's just dark. That is, telescopes, etc. from earth don't detect light sources there, so it is believed to be "empty space." We "see" galaxies because of the concentration of stars that emit light and we can use other wavelengths to detect certain gases, so basically, "dark space" is the space we observe between the galaxies we can see. What's really there? We don't really know.
The relay network is a mythical transport system.
Shepard (speaking about the stealth system). "Why doesn't it work with faster than light travel." Adams: "FTL blue-shifts our emissions... so they can't be captured in the sinks." This conversation implies that Normandy must be sub-light to be undetectable by sensors and it becomes detectable when it enters FTL flight.
Yes of course it is space. My question is (especially if it is true that the reapers just go there to hibernate undetected) why would they fly away from their relay, which is supposed ot be there? But again, I am not saying it's impossible that they did.
In the conversation with Adams, they are talking about what happens when the ship emerges from or goes into FTL. From the Codex entry on space combat: "Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them [...]" You probably even detect light coming of a ship flying FTL but since the ship is flying, you know, faster than light, the ship will be there before you can detect the light it emits during the flight, effectively making it undetectable in advance of its arrival.
Relay 1 in dark space is paired with the Citadel... which remained closed (ME1). Relay 2 in dark space was 2 years Reaper FTL travel from Relay 1. Relay 2 links to the Alpha Relay in the Bahak system. The Reaper artifact began tracking the travel progress being made to get to Relay 2. The Alpha Relay, however, was blown up by Shepard, making Relay 2 unusable as well. Relay 3 from dark space is 6 months away from Relay 2 and connects to another Relay in Batarian space... through which the Reapers invaded in 2187 followed by almost immediate access to multiple other relays in the Milky Way and hence the attacks on Earth, Palaven... and the Council's reports of the Reapers pressing on the boarders of the Salarian and Asari homeworlds (as stated at the Council meeting during Shepard's first visit to the Citadel in ME3).
That's my theory anyways. We go in circles here because we're all trying to make sense of a fictional Relay system that hasn't really made sense from when it was first created in ME1. Once inside the galaxy, the Reapers have faster access through ANY of the relays in the galaxy that Shepard uses. They could have gone anywhere Shepard went faster than Shepard could have gone there. There is no reason they would take 6 months to get anywhere within the galaxy once they are in the galaxy unless it's taking Shepard the same sort of time to get between the different relays that link to different systems within the galaxy or from the various planets he explores in each system to the single relay shown us within that system. If more relays exist, there is nothing stopping the Reapers from using them as well. It's a catch 22.
The conversation implies that the stealth system doesn't work with FTL." If it only reveals a location as they go into FTL, it wouldn't be a concern at all since the ship would, within a fraction of second, not be at that location where it first entered FTL. After entering FTL, the implication is that the ship still has emissions... and those emissions are blue-shifted such that they cannot be captured in the sinks. They would then literally leave a trail of emissions that could be detected and followed to the location wherever the ship leaves FTL flight... i.e. not tracking where the ship is, but where it was and where it went. For combat, you need to know where the ship is at that moment. To track it to a location where it went, you only need a trail to follow.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 25, 2021 22:19:45 GMT
1. The Citadel Relay is a direct tie in location to dark space so the Reapers can jump in instantly to the Citadel from their position there. 2. It does not break ME 1 lore. The Reapers without the Citadel Relay have to then fly into the MW at a normal speed and then use the Alpha Relay to go into the rest of the galaxy from there. But as the DLC says the Reapers are going to arrive anyways, and then it will be a matter of time before they get to the next relay and enter through there instead...dialogue stated very plainly during the Arrival DLC. If they are in the Bahak system in order to access the Alpha Relay to get to other points in the galaxy... again, Why aren't they visible in the skies above the asteroid when we are fighting the mechs? They are "literally minutes" from using the Relay. How can Joker beat them to the relay after picking up Shepard. Why don't they just blow Joker out of the sky with their big lasers? In 6 months of travelling to the next relay in the galaxy, they encounter no other galactic life? Six months is a long time to be moving about within a settled galaxy and not be noted by anyone... even Batarians aren't that dumb. How is it that the Reapers aren't destroyed in the explosion of the relay that destroys an entire system... even planets more than "minutes" away from the Relay itself? Your last question answers your first question. The Reapers weren't actually in the system...yet...they were minutes away from Arrival in the system which would have been a short hop from their to the Alpha Relay and then the Galaxy. The language may be a lot vague and non specific but it falls, at least imo, in the usual imprecision of the English language in general when trying to present complex ideas. The Reapers weren't in the system when the rock hit, otherwise they would have been blown to hell...though I just thought to probably wouldn't have been a good idea to try waiting either since then the Reapers probably could have stopped the Project somehow. We also know from dialogue and from the events of ME 3 that they did not take the full 6 months to reach the next inhabited system. Kenson only theorized they'd have to...but that was likely using their own FTL tech as a base and we know Reapers are much faster then any civilization in the known galaxy, so not that much of a stretch. And the events seem to indicate that Reapers got to Batarian space, cut them off from the rest of the Galaxy, mass harvested them for ground troops...then started the assault on Earth. Remember the Batarians weren't much liked by the rest of the galaxy. This does rely on a matter of timing though...when exactly does your Shepard do the Arrival? Because TIMs logic on the face of it seems to track if only a little from the beginning. And: 1. During Horizon we know they have Reaper conversion tech to make Husks considering we fight Husks. 2. They also use the same encryption protocols as Reaper ships and a 'Reaper IFF" is good enough to penetrate the Omega 4 relay and get to attack their base. Both are compelling reasons to find out that they are connected to the Reapers. Both we find out relatively early in the game and Arrival does not even become available until after Horizon. You haven't even come close to getting the Reaper IFF yet. TIM is still sending you dossiers to find and recruit Tali, Samara, and Thane... and Jacob and Miranda are asking you personal favors to find dad and help her sister relocate... all right after Horizon. Does that sound like the type of urgency that overrides Hackett's "evidence of an imminent Reaper invasion?"
Although the squad mates imply that the husks are proof the collectors are working with the Reapers, I disagree. The geth were the ones creating the husks. Those on Horizon are merely enhanced a bit... so they still could be "geth products" that the Collector bought and brought to help them subdue humans. We still don't really know why they are taking the humans alive.
Furthermore, it's not until 5 missions after Horizon that it is revealed that the Collectors are using Reaper protocols. In the Horizon debrief, TIM just says he's still looking for a way through the Omega 4 relay.
It depends on what order you do the missions. Now most people probably wait to do the Reaper IFF mission until much later since doing it early risks having extreme consequences for you and your crew...but it is possible to just skip all the dosiers and LM post Horizon and go right to the IFF, which the dialogue of the game kind of encourages you to do it ASAP as well. So it is theoretically possible to probably do learn about the IFF by the 25 hour mark and then launch the mission almost soon thereafter. And well...both are pretty urgent and it goes back to BioWare being stupid in giving us the comminique after Horizon. The Geth were creating the Husks using Reaper technology. This was well established in both ME 1 and then pretty much confirmed, if there was any doubts, in ME 2 during the IFF mission. TIMs case is also logical.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 25, 2021 22:26:34 GMT
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
1. The Citadel Relay is a direct tie in location to dark space so the Reapers can jump in instantly to the Citadel from their position there. 2. It does not break ME 1 lore. The Reapers without the Citadel Relay have to then fly into the MW at a normal speed and then use the Alpha Relay to go into the rest of the galaxy from there. But as the DLC says the Reapers are going to arrive anyways, and then it will be a matter of time before they get to the next relay and enter through there instead...dialogue stated very plainly during the Arrival DLC. It breaks lore in that originally, without the Citadel relay, the Reapers were "trapped" in dark space. Heck there was some doubt the other Reapers were even awake without Sovereign's signal. The Alpha relay and the Reaper ability to Energizer Bunny without having to stop and discharge turned the stunning victory against Sovereign from a crushing loss to a mild inconvenience for the Reapers. Compounded by there being hundreds of thousands of Reapers makes you wonder why the ambush was even needed to begin with.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 25, 2021 22:29:47 GMT
1. The Citadel Relay is a direct tie in location to dark space so the Reapers can jump in instantly to the Citadel from their position there. 2. It does not break ME 1 lore. The Reapers without the Citadel Relay have to then fly into the MW at a normal speed and then use the Alpha Relay to go into the rest of the galaxy from there. But as the DLC says the Reapers are going to arrive anyways, and then it will be a matter of time before they get to the next relay and enter through there instead...dialogue stated very plainly during the Arrival DLC. It breaks lore in that originally, without the Citadel relay, the Reapers were "trapped" in dark space. Heck there was some doubt the other Reapers were even awake without Sovereign's signal. The Alpha relay and the Reaper ability to Energizer Bunny without having to stop and discharge turned the stunning victory against Sovereign from a crushing loss to a mild inconvenience for the Reapers. Compounded by there being hundreds of thousands of Reapers makes you wonder why the ambush was even needed to begin with. Again that would only seem to be a theory at this point. Until stated otherwise...and well we actually know from multiple sources in universe...that you can actually move in Dark Space so it wasn't much of a trap. It would just take them a little longer. Now the point about the Reapers waking up on their own is a bit more apt...but this is the Reapers we are talking about, a race that seems prepared for any number of contingencies...and I also point out wouldn't be much of a story if the Reapers did stay trapped.
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