Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jun 25, 2021 22:34:09 GMT
It breaks lore in that originally, without the Citadel relay, the Reapers were "trapped" in dark space. Heck there was some doubt the other Reapers were even awake without Sovereign's signal. The Alpha relay and the Reaper ability to Energizer Bunny without having to stop and discharge turned the stunning victory against Sovereign from a crushing loss to a mild inconvenience for the Reapers. Compounded by there being hundreds of thousands of Reapers makes you wonder why the ambush was even needed to begin with. Again that would only seem to be a theory at this point. Until stated otherwise...and well we actually know from multiple sources in universe...that you can actually move in Dark Space so it wasn't much of a trap. It would just take them a little longer. Now the point about the Reapers waking up on their own is a bit more apt...but this is the Reapers we are talking about, a race that seems prepared for any number of contingencies...and I also point out wouldn't be much of a story if the Reapers did stay trapped. Dark space has few to no planets. Nowhere to discharge a drive core. So travel from any distance in dark space to another galaxy should have been virtually impossible. Thus why the Reapers were "trapped" If they could just fly in with such overwhelming numbers, why bother with the ambush/decapitation tactic. I'm not against having contingencies. but these contingencies need to make some sort of logical sense!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 22:39:02 GMT
If they are in the Bahak system in order to access the Alpha Relay to get to other points in the galaxy... again, Why aren't they visible in the skies above the asteroid when we are fighting the mechs? They are "literally minutes" from using the Relay. How can Joker beat them to the relay after picking up Shepard. Why don't they just blow Joker out of the sky with their big lasers? In 6 months of travelling to the next relay in the galaxy, they encounter no other galactic life? Six months is a long time to be moving about within a settled galaxy and not be noted by anyone... even Batarians aren't that dumb. How is it that the Reapers aren't destroyed in the explosion of the relay that destroys an entire system... even planets more than "minutes" away from the Relay itself? Your last question answers your first question. The Reapers weren't actually in the system...yet...they were minutes away from Arrival in the system which would have been a short hop from their to the Alpha Relay and then the Galaxy. The language may be a lot vague and non specific but it falls, at least imo, in the usual imprecision of the English language in general when trying to present complex ideas. The Reapers weren't in the system when the rock hit, otherwise they would have been blown to hell...though I just thought to probably wouldn't have been a good idea to try waiting either since then the Reapers probably could have stopped the Project somehow. We also know from dialogue and from the events of ME 3 that they did not take the full 6 months to reach the next inhabited system. Kenson only theorized they'd have to...but that was likely using their own FTL tech as a base and we know Reapers are much faster then any civilization in the known galaxy, so not that much of a stretch. And the events seem to indicate that Reapers got to Batarian space, cut them off from the rest of the Galaxy, mass harvested them for ground troops...then started the assault on Earth. Remember the Batarians weren't much liked by the rest of the galaxy. You haven't even come close to getting the Reaper IFF yet. TIM is still sending you dossiers to find and recruit Tali, Samara, and Thane... and Jacob and Miranda are asking you personal favors to find dad and help her sister relocate... all right after Horizon. Does that sound like the type of urgency that overrides Hackett's "evidence of an imminent Reaper invasion?"
Although the squad mates imply that the husks are proof the collectors are working with the Reapers, I disagree. The geth were the ones creating the husks. Those on Horizon are merely enhanced a bit... so they still could be "geth products" that the Collector bought and brought to help them subdue humans. We still don't really know why they are taking the humans alive.
Furthermore, it's not until 5 missions after Horizon that it is revealed that the Collectors are using Reaper protocols. In the Horizon debrief, TIM just says he's still looking for a way through the Omega 4 relay.
It depends on what order you do the missions. Now most people probably wait to do the Reaper IFF mission until much later since doing it early risks having extreme consequences for you and your crew...but it is possible to just skip all the dosiers and LM post Horizon and go right to the IFF, which the dialogue of the game kind of encourages you to do it ASAP as well. So it is theoretically possible to probably do learn about the IFF by the 25 hour mark and then launch the mission almost soon thereafter. And well...both are pretty urgent and it goes back to BioWare being stupid in giving us the comminique after Horizon. The Geth were creating the Husks using Reaper technology. This was well established in both ME 1 and then pretty much confirmed, if there was any doubts, in ME 2 during the IFF mission. TIMs case is also logical. Minutes away from using the Relay is not the same as minutes away from the system since it would take more than minutes to travel from the system edge to the relay proper. It takes Shepard more than minutes to get just from the planet to the asteroid with Kenson. The distance don't add up no matter how you want to slice them. Also, the system edge is not a wall...convenient that the system is perfectly round such that the blast radius dies right at the system edge in all directions. The Reapers are entering the system from dark space via the Alpha Relay. It's the only scenario that makes any sense at all.
It does not depend on what order you do the missions... After Horizon you still have TIM giving you dossiers (whether you do them or not) and Miranda and Jacob asking for personal favors. Obviously, they aren't very rushed at that point... AND you still must do 5 missions before the Collector Ship will trigger. Hackett, on the other hand, states clearly that Kenson has "evidence of an IMMINENT reaper invasion." My Shepard puts the Collector mission aside to handle what he perceives is the IMMINENT threat. In my games, Arrival is the first of the 5 mission requirement to trigger the Collector Ship mission.
ETA: If you try to use the Omega 4 Relay after Horizon (but before the Collector Ship triggers), EDI will tell you that you cannot use it until they have a "solution" and you will be blocked from entering it. It's after the Collector Ship that TIM tells you about the IFF... and you can go get it immediately and then immediately afterward enter the Omega 4 relay if you wish (as long as you have recruited 8 squad members in total, which is also a requirement for triggering the Collector Ship mission anyways).
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 25, 2021 22:59:58 GMT
If Hackett thought a Reaper invasion was imminent then it makes his decision to send 1 person who in most classes isn't qualified for the mission even more foolish. To say nothing of the embarassment it could (and does) cause by having his chosen agent be one of the highest profile agents in the Alliance AND Humanity's first Spectre considering that the Batarians will assume you were acting in your Spectre capacity and leverage it against the Council for maximum embarassment.
Crew morale will also suffer with Sheperd taking private personal calls from Alliance Admirals. Morale is a delicate thing on a ship and any suggestion that Sheperd is with 'them' instead of 'us' won't go down well. Neither will Sheperd heading off after said call without filling any of his senior officers in or telling TIM (a Reaper invasion being something he would want to be kept in the loop about surely?) There's no way Miranda, Jacob and TIM would accept this and just say 'Well be careful I guess on... whatever you're doing. We'll respect Hackett's wishes for you to go alone with no backup because we place a lot of faith in the Alliance...?!'
Its just a badly written dlc with an absurd premise that has everyone act stupidly and out of character. And since its the only dlc absent from the trophy lists in all 3 games and the story thread was immediatly dropped in ME3, it seems Bioware agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 23:19:12 GMT
Again that would only seem to be a theory at this point. Until stated otherwise...and well we actually know from multiple sources in universe...that you can actually move in Dark Space so it wasn't much of a trap. It would just take them a little longer. Now the point about the Reapers waking up on their own is a bit more apt...but this is the Reapers we are talking about, a race that seems prepared for any number of contingencies...and I also point out wouldn't be much of a story if the Reapers did stay trapped. Dark space has few to no planets. Nowhere to discharge a drive core. So travel from any distance in dark space to another galaxy should have been virtually impossible. Thus why the Reapers were "trapped" If they could just fly in with such overwhelming numbers, why bother with the ambush/decapitation tactic. I'm not against having contingencies. but these contingencies need to make some sort of logical sense! However, Vigil only assumes they hibernate in "dark space." He states straight up that they (i.e the Protheans) have "only theories." The Reapers could, instead, hibernate in another galaxy far, far away from the Milky Way galaxy... on the other side of one of the "dark spaces" in the universe.... using Relays strong enough to get them from their galaxy to the Milky Way Galaxy... heck, they might even come from Andromeda. 
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Post by Iakus on Jun 25, 2021 23:25:49 GMT
Dark space has few to no planets. Nowhere to discharge a drive core. So travel from any distance in dark space to another galaxy should have been virtually impossible. Thus why the Reapers were "trapped" If they could just fly in with such overwhelming numbers, why bother with the ambush/decapitation tactic. I'm not against having contingencies. but these contingencies need to make some sort of logical sense! However, Vigil only assumes they hibernate in "dark space." He states straight up that they (i.e the Protheans) have "only theories." The Reapers could, instead, hibernate in another galaxy far, far away from the Milky Way galaxy... on the other side of one of the "dark spaces" in the universe.... using Relays strong enough to get them from their galaxy to the Milky Way Galaxy... heck, they might even come from Andromeda. I would actually be okay with there being various "broods" of Reapers harvesting various galaxies.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 26, 2021 0:07:49 GMT
Hackett, on the other hand, states clearly that Kenson has "evidence of an IMMINENT reaper invasion." That's partly right. He tells Shepard that Kenson recently reported that she found evidence of an imminent reaper invasion. How far back does this recent go? When talking to Hackett, he says she was taken prisoner. When on the asteroid, Shepard sees a large group of people, all kinds of stuff letting believe they have been there for however long. Plus they attached thrusters to the asteroid. How long have they been there? If there is an imminent invasion, why not let Hackett know when she first found out? Since it has you do the mission before the suicide mission, because of an imminent invasion, then why did the Alliance lock Shepard up for 6 months instead of having her/him finding a way to stop the reapers? Preventing a war with the Batarians is a lame excuse. What's the maximum effective range of an excuse? ZERO. Remember the Mickey Mouse club asking what do we do and saying we were hoping you would tell us?? All they did for 6 months is take the shape of their chair. Even had that guy in ME2 say it's up Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. If Shepard doesn't do the mission, Hackett sends in the troops getting the same results. The difference being he looses some resources that could have been used against the reapers when they show up.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 26, 2021 0:35:21 GMT
What reality are living in if you think Sheperd could kill millions of people and not be arrested for it? And you'd just let the war with the Batarians happen, would you? Great plan that. Just what the galaxy needs.
Sheperd is told so many times to gather actual evidence and he *always* it off. Eden Prime patrol guy who films the geth attack is 100 times the investigator Sheperd is. Sheperd has an omni tool but he ever record important conversations? No. Does he inform Anderson or the Council of the Derelict Reaper sitting in Council Space where they can investigate or gather recordings and evidence when there or after preserving the Collector base, does he do anything to gather evidence of Reaper involvement? Was the Collector General shredding documents in the back room the whole time? Does he look for solid proof at Kenson's lab, record what Kenson before and after her betrayal - it would after all require the highly advanced technique of pressing Record on his omni tool.
Udina rightly mocks Sheperd for never learning his lesson. 'Its true because I say so, honest guv' is a crazy position to take and refuse to budge from it. They took Saren at his word and Sheperd went ballistic about that, yet wants everyone to take his word on faith?
'Giant orangutans with rocket launchers are coming to destroy Bristol - why does nobody believe my highly credible story?!' Well, would you?
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Post by themikefest on Jun 26, 2021 1:06:57 GMT
What reality are living in if you think Sheperd could kill millions of people and not be arrested for it? Shepard killed millions?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 1:12:58 GMT
Hackett lets Shepard go because he actually trusts Shepard. Him and Anderson are literally the only 2 people in any position of authority that actually believe and trust Shepard about the Reapers. Why do you think Hackett would come to Shepard asking a personal favor to rescue an old friend who thinks they found a Reaper artifact in the middle of Batarian space were any proof of Alliance actions there could ignite a war between the Hegemony and the Alliance?
Batarians are basically space North Korea. And extremely isolated race that has a heavily enforced chaste system combined with plenty of propaganda. They make regular slave raids into Alliance space. Balak literally justifies dropping an asteroid on Terra Nova because the Alliance was given favoratisim by the Council for colonization rights. They would sooner cut off their own arm then accept help from the Alliance. This was actually shown in ME3 were the Hegemony denied they were being attacked and decimated until the Reapers over whelmed them.
Of course Shepard would want to see the artifact to confirm it is Reaper in origin. He and Ash/Kaiden are the Alliance experts on Reapers. You don't just take an unconfirmed statement as word for a military action. Kenson might be Hackett's closest ally but if the Alliance High Command brought Hackett forward to ask him to validate his actions they wouldn't accept that a close friend said so without proof. Shepard with the SR-2 could sneak in and free Kenson. Then bring what ever proof she has back to Hackett which would give him a solid reason to engage in any actions needed.
If Hackett is going to risk a war and waste resources and man power while the Reapers are still coming he needs unquestionable proof to validate this move.
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
Trust is relevant. Trust is why you don't hand any random person who asks you your wallet. Trust is why Hackett is allowing Shepard to continue to act out in space knowing eventually he would return to Earth. And technically there is stuff to do post SM. You can do stuff you didn't do before the SM like loyalty missions you didn't complete. Side missions you didn't complete. They are giving a narrative reason to allow the player to go back and finish uncompleted missions.
Alpha Relay doesn't break the lore in ME1. The fact the Relay connects to the Citadel shows the Reapers created a plan B if the Citadel route ever failed. It would take longer but they would achieve the same thing. And once the Reapers hit the Relay Network they could spread across it fairly easily. Smaller Relays connect to dozens of systems so arriving at a small hub could give access to a dozen systems at once.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 26, 2021 1:29:21 GMT
What reality are living in if you think Sheperd could kill millions of people and not be arrested for it? Shepard killed millions? I dunno about millions, but he surely put a sizable dent in at leas three merc groups in the Terminus... 
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 26, 2021 1:30:28 GMT
How many people live on Earth. That's one planet. The relay explosion destroys a system. Basically I always felt BW seriously lowballed the figure... to a 'mere' 300,000.
Your contention here is... what? That if Sheperd 'only' killed hundreds of thousands that would be fine would it? Murder is a crime. Even if its non humans getting killed. I thought I'd better make that distinction since its you. If Sheperd wasn't arrested after killing so many people, the Alliance, Humanity as a whole and the Council would be hammered for it. The Alliance would be facing so many criminal lawsuits it'd explode. They'd be censured and fined by the Citadel, Humanity would be disgraced and removed from the council all to try and appease the Batarians.
But only if they refused to produce Sheperd for trial. Anderson and Hackett are hoping Sheperd's defense will finally prove the Reapers' existence. They have no choice in this - your assertion that they can just handwave all those deaths and let Sheperd off scot free is ludicrous.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 2:23:20 GMT
Trust is irrelevant. Shepard's job "out there" is done after the SM is complete. There is no reason for Hackett to delay procedings... for what, to allow Shepard to drop off his gang of mercenaries, assasins, thieves, and other galactic criminals so they can avoid prosecution? There is nothing left for Shepard to do... that's the problem with Hackett's after SM dialogue. It works before the SM when Shepard has a very important job to finish... taking down the collectors.
Do Arrival whenever want. I'll do it before the SM because I want to. Seeing Harbinger as a reaper is not a bit deal for me. I already know I'm stopping the arrival of Reapers in that DLC...but you can oooh and awwwwe along with the others here if you want. The whole Arrival situation doesn't make sense anyways. The concept of the Alpha Relay breaks lore with ME1 (which also made no sense). Eventually, in ME3, the Reapers attack the galaxy by coming in through all the Relays at once. They apparently didn't need a particular relay to unlock the rest.
Trust is relevant. Trust is why you don't hand any random person who asks you your wallet. Trust is why Hackett is allowing Shepard to continue to act out in space knowing eventually he would return to Earth. And technically there is stuff to do post SM. You can do stuff you didn't do before the SM like loyalty missions you didn't complete. Side missions you didn't complete. They are giving a narrative reason to allow the player to go back and finish uncompleted missions.
Alpha Relay doesn't break the lore in ME1. The fact the Relay connects to the Citadel shows the Reapers created a plan B if the Citadel route ever failed. It would take longer but they would achieve the same thing. And once the Reapers hit the Relay Network they could spread across it fairly easily. Smaller Relays connect to dozens of systems so arriving at a small hub could give access to a dozen systems at once.
Yes, trust is irrelevant in this case because there is nothing left for Shepard to do after the Suicide Mission. The important job that Shepard has to do working with Cerberus is done and dusted. Just because the player can go back and finish stuff they missed does not change the fact that his mission for TIM is finished with the Suicide Mission. There is no reason for Shepard to delay returning to earth to face the music There is no reason for him to recruit another person or to make them loyal... and running off to do anything else is just the extraneous side missions that have no bearing on the main story anyways. The narrative works before the SM... and logicalaly, Shepard would see Harbinger as a Reaper even before the SM. So, I do it when Hackett givesit to him as an "evidence of an imminent reaper invasion." My Shepard trusts him to not lie to him about the urgency of iit. Compared to the other tasks he's given right after Horizon, it is definitely more urgent than finding someone's dad who has been lost for 10 years or recruiting 3 more people to the team or going to Illium to help someone's sister move.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 26, 2021 3:26:02 GMT
Even if you did believe the threat was real, it doesn't make Hackett's plan any less stupid and suicidal which is grounds for refusal right there. Sheperd is not some solo superspy espionage guy. And he's far too high profile for the deniable thing to wash. He will almost certainly be detected which even if he escapes drops the Alliance and Council right in it because of his high profile (and that's just if he'd been caught spying and attacking people). And seeing as that is exactly what *does* happen, there's little point in anyone trying to defend this crazy 'plan'.
Add in Sheperd not calling in with an update and request for backup the second the invasion was confirmed and this dlc is a total write off of previously sensible characters making unusually stupid decisions (the Reapers not informing the Collectors or any other agents of their arrival so they could secure the system just beforehand is another gem - they indoctrinate 1 small team and when the leader is arrested, they just hope for the best that she won't talk or that her presence won't expose the rest of her team... Suddenly, leaving a single Reaper to open the portal in ME1 seems like a much tighter plan...)
Bioware themselves all but disowned it in ME3. They could have insisted it happened as written (since there are no actual choices anyway in the dlc) whether you bought it or not. They didn't and since the overwhelming opinion of fans at the time was negative for its zero choices, high emphasis on combat, solo Sheperd and enforced mass murder, its easy to see why they just wanted ro sweep Arrival under the rug ASAP. Sheperd doesn't lose a wink over the 300,000 people but angsts in the most cringe dream sequences over 1 kid he saw for like 20 seconds. Great continuity there, plus nobody on the squad thinks 'Man, 300,000 people? Are you gonna be alright after doing something like that?' They give you WAAAY more awkward 'how do we bring this up without upsetting him' about Torfan in the Ruthless origin.
Arrival just sucks. Its *really* badly written and to BW's credit, they know that now.
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Post by trengilly on Jun 26, 2021 4:01:12 GMT
Well in my case I like the Destroy ending but HATE the breather scene so I'm super excited that it will be easier to avoid it! 7450 here I come!  Why do you hate the Breath scene? (curious) I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before. My Shepard's story is done. It was foreshadowed throughout ME3 that Shepard was going to die so I was totally expecting that when I first played. Hero giving their life to save the galaxy, yeah I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. And just the idea of somehow surviving the destruction of a space station, wtf, Shepard was already bleeding out before that anyway. My Shepard is died a hero, story and game over!
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jun 26, 2021 9:53:38 GMT
That's fair.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 9:54:50 GMT
Trust is relevant. Trust is why you don't hand any random person who asks you your wallet. Trust is why Hackett is allowing Shepard to continue to act out in space knowing eventually he would return to Earth. And technically there is stuff to do post SM. You can do stuff you didn't do before the SM like loyalty missions you didn't complete. Side missions you didn't complete. They are giving a narrative reason to allow the player to go back and finish uncompleted missions.
Alpha Relay doesn't break the lore in ME1. The fact the Relay connects to the Citadel shows the Reapers created a plan B if the Citadel route ever failed. It would take longer but they would achieve the same thing. And once the Reapers hit the Relay Network they could spread across it fairly easily. Smaller Relays connect to dozens of systems so arriving at a small hub could give access to a dozen systems at once.
Yes, trust is irrelevant in this case because there is nothing left for Shepard to do after the Suicide Mission. The important job that Shepard has to do working with Cerberus is done and dusted. Just because the player can go back and finish stuff they missed does not change the fact that his mission for TIM is finished with the Suicide Mission. There is no reason for Shepard to delay returning to earth to face the music There is no reason for him to recruit another person or to make them loyal... and running off to do anything else is just the extraneous side missions that have no bearing on the main story anyways. The narrative works before the SM... and logicalaly, Shepard would see Harbinger as a Reaper even before the SM. So, I do it when Hackett givesit to him as an "evidence of an imminent reaper invasion." My Shepard trusts him to not lie to him about the urgency of iit. Compared to the other tasks he's given right after Horizon, it is definitely more urgent than finding someone's dad who has been lost for 10 years or recruiting 3 more people to the team or going to Illium to help someone's sister move.
Only if you are a completionist. If you 100% the game before the SM there is nothing to do. If you don't 100% the game before the SM there is still things to do. Building allies with connections is always important when you are preparing for a massive galaxy wide invasion. Particularly when all the governments of said galaxy either don't believe you at all or at best are only willing to give quiet support.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 10:20:58 GMT
Bioware themselves all but disowned it in ME3. They could have insisted it happened as written (since there are no actual choices anyway in the dlc) whether you bought it or not. They didn't and since the overwhelming opinion of fans at the time was negative for its zero choices, high emphasis on combat, solo Sheperd and enforced mass murder, its easy to see why they just wanted ro sweep Arrival under the rug ASAP. Sheperd doesn't lose a wink over the 300,000 people but angsts in the most cringe dream sequences over 1 kid he saw for like 20 seconds. Great continuity there, plus nobody on the squad thinks 'Man, 300,000 people? Are you gonna be alright after doing something like that?' They give you WAAAY more awkward 'how do we bring this up without upsetting him' about Torfan in the Ruthless origin. Arrival just sucks. Its *really* badly written and to BW's credit, they know that now. Not really. It is a core reason why Shepard is locked up if you completed the DLC.
That said Overlord has a high emphasis on combat and zero choices as well. Well one choice that is so lopsided I'd say it isn't even a choice right at the end. Save David or leave David straped to the horror nightmare machine that makes 0 sense for how it was constructed given it's intended role. I mean seriously it looks like a fucking Penitent Engine from Warhammer 40k.
Torfan in the Ruthless origin Shepard was on the ground fighting and killing Batarians both aggressive and surrendering. Blowing a Batarian's brain out the back of their skull after they surrendered is not the same as looking at a computer screen from light years away and seeing the system fade away from the map. Like wise the kid was someone Shepard personally watched from his cell. They listened to the fear in his voice during the invasion and watched them get blown out of the sky while Shepard remained utterly helpless to do anything.
We quite literally see this effect in the real world with Covid. There are countless examples of people who denied or downplayed the severity of the pandemic because it was just faceless stats with no emotional connection. Then as soon as they or one of their loved ones gets infected and hospitalized or killed suddenly they change their tune. It isn't bad writing it is actually fairly accurate to how people actually act.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2021 11:02:25 GMT
Even if you did believe the threat was real, it doesn't make Hackett's plan any less stupid and suicidal which is grounds for refusal right there. Sheperd is not some solo superspy espionage guy. And he's far too high profile for the deniable thing to wash. He will almost certainly be detected which even if he escapes drops the Alliance and Council right in it because of his high profile (and that's just if he'd been caught spying and attacking people). And seeing as that is exactly what *does* happen, there's little point in anyone trying to defend this crazy 'plan'. Add in Sheperd not calling in with an update and request for backup the second the invasion was confirmed and this dlc is a total write off of previously sensible characters making unusually stupid decisions (the Reapers not informing the Collectors or any other agents of their arrival so they could secure the system just beforehand is another gem - they indoctrinate 1 small team and when the leader is arrested, they just hope for the best that she won't talk or that her presence won't expose the rest of her team... Suddenly, leaving a single Reaper to open the portal in ME1 seems like a much tighter plan...) Bioware themselves all but disowned it in ME3. They could have insisted it happened as written (since there are no actual choices anyway in the dlc) whether you bought it or not. They didn't and since the overwhelming opinion of fans at the time was negative for its zero choices, high emphasis on combat, solo Sheperd and enforced mass murder, its easy to see why they just wanted ro sweep Arrival under the rug ASAP. Sheperd doesn't lose a wink over the 300,000 people but angsts in the most cringe dream sequences over 1 kid he saw for like 20 seconds. Great continuity there, plus nobody on the squad thinks 'Man, 300,000 people? Are you gonna be alright after doing something like that?' They give you WAAAY more awkward 'how do we bring this up without upsetting him' about Torfan in the Ruthless origin. Arrival just sucks. Its *really* badly written and to BW's credit, they know that now. The only argument which seems to hold much water is the solo Shepard. Similar annoyance happened in the whole Omega DLC. Emphasis on Combat? Usually happens in most of MEs DLCs with really the only exceptions being Leviathan and Citadel. No choices? Most DLC kind of don't have major choices in the narrative which effect the series and even within the confines of the narrative of said DLC not a lot of choices is always offered. And either way for me this was a highlight for me. For once Shepard actually had to make a tough call, hell for once the player had to make a tough call. They couldn't just be Shepard and hand wave themselves through the situation, they couldn't just use the power of the all mighty Shepard and Chuck Norris themselves through, and for once the universe didn't revolve around Shepard and...well they had to make a tough choice. As the Doctor says, sometimes when there are no good choices, you still have to choose. Swept under the rug? Maybe after Priority Earth but the DLC and its events are referenced heavily in the prologue for the game...as well as again being the whole reason Shepard is in jail if you played it...as has been mentioned...as well as being pretty much the whole reason why they still had a chance so early in the game anyways. Arrival may have had a few issues here and there but I think it stands up pretty well and is the last of METs *really good* DLCs before they start to show significant loss of quality. (Omega, BdTS imo)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 11:22:17 GMT
Yes, trust is irrelevant in this case because there is nothing left for Shepard to do after the Suicide Mission. The important job that Shepard has to do working with Cerberus is done and dusted. Just because the player can go back and finish stuff they missed does not change the fact that his mission for TIM is finished with the Suicide Mission. There is no reason for Shepard to delay returning to earth to face the music There is no reason for him to recruit another person or to make them loyal... and running off to do anything else is just the extraneous side missions that have no bearing on the main story anyways. The narrative works before the SM... and logicalaly, Shepard would see Harbinger as a Reaper even before the SM. So, I do it when Hackett givesit to him as an "evidence of an imminent reaper invasion." My Shepard trusts him to not lie to him about the urgency of iit. Compared to the other tasks he's given right after Horizon, it is definitely more urgent than finding someone's dad who has been lost for 10 years or recruiting 3 more people to the team or going to Illium to help someone's sister move.
Only if you are a completionist. If you 100% the game before the SM there is nothing to do. If you don't 100% the game before the SM there is still things to do. Building allies with connections is always important when you are preparing for a massive galaxy wide invasion. Particularly when all the governments of said galaxy either don't believe you at all or at best are only willing to give quiet support.
Being a completionist has nothing to with it either. You're conflating role-play with game play. My Shepard is trusting Hackett to have conveyed urgency by describing "evidence of an IMMINENT Reaper invasion." He reacts to that because he himself has been obsessed over a Reaper invasion since ME1. He's not obsessed about stopping the Collectors because he doesn't trust TIM as much as he trusts Hackett. .. so he does Arrival right away... and puts off the lesser urgent tasks of recruiting more people, helping Jacob get closure and helping Miranda move her sister... all of which are the tasks he's given on the same day as the Arrival one... and the narrative afterward, in my opinion, works better because when he's being debriefed by Hackett, he still HAS an IMPORTANT job to complete in the galaxy... that being stopping the Collectors. Hackett's trust in Shepard t the end has nothing to do with it either BECAUSE Hackett lets Shepard go regardless of whether or not Shepard has completed his important job for TIM... and he says the same thing either way... Finish what you have to do out here. For me, the narrative works better if Shepard does have that one important job to finish for TIM when Hackett says that.
You can do whatever you feel convenient for your game. I don't allow the image of Harbinger to interfere with that role-play. My opinion (again, my OPINION) is that the narrative works BETTER before the SM than it does after. My OPINION is that there should be an image of a Reaper there regardless of when the DLC is done.
We're done here... because I'm tired of repeating myself on this... so you all argue away amongst yourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 11:49:39 GMT
Even if you did believe the threat was real, it doesn't make Hackett's plan any less stupid and suicidal which is grounds for refusal right there. Sheperd is not some solo superspy espionage guy. And he's far too high profile for the deniable thing to wash. He will almost certainly be detected which even if he escapes drops the Alliance and Council right in it because of his high profile (and that's just if he'd been caught spying and attacking people). And seeing as that is exactly what *does* happen, there's little point in anyone trying to defend this crazy 'plan'. Add in Sheperd not calling in with an update and request for backup the second the invasion was confirmed and this dlc is a total write off of previously sensible characters making unusually stupid decisions (the Reapers not informing the Collectors or any other agents of their arrival so they could secure the system just beforehand is another gem - they indoctrinate 1 small team and when the leader is arrested, they just hope for the best that she won't talk or that her presence won't expose the rest of her team... Suddenly, leaving a single Reaper to open the portal in ME1 seems like a much tighter plan...) Bioware themselves all but disowned it in ME3. They could have insisted it happened as written (since there are no actual choices anyway in the dlc) whether you bought it or not. They didn't and since the overwhelming opinion of fans at the time was negative for its zero choices, high emphasis on combat, solo Sheperd and enforced mass murder, its easy to see why they just wanted ro sweep Arrival under the rug ASAP. Sheperd doesn't lose a wink over the 300,000 people but angsts in the most cringe dream sequences over 1 kid he saw for like 20 seconds. Great continuity there, plus nobody on the squad thinks 'Man, 300,000 people? Are you gonna be alright after doing something like that?' They give you WAAAY more awkward 'how do we bring this up without upsetting him' about Torfan in the Ruthless origin. Arrival just sucks. Its *really* badly written and to BW's credit, they know that now. The only argument which seems to hold much water is the solo Shepard. Similar annoyance happened in the whole Omega DLC. Emphasis on Combat? Usually happens in most of MEs DLCs with really the only exceptions being Leviathan and Citadel. No choices? Most DLC kind of don't have major choices in the narrative which effect the series and even within the confines of the narrative of said DLC not a lot of choices is always offered. And either way for me this was a highlight for me. For once Shepard actually had to make a tough call, hell for once the player had to make a tough call. They couldn't just be Shepard and hand wave themselves through the situation, they couldn't just use the power of the all mighty Shepard and Chuck Norris themselves through, and for once the universe didn't revolve around Shepard and...well they had to make a tough choice. As the Doctor says, sometimes when there are no good choices, you still have to choose. Swept under the rug? Maybe after Priority Earth but the DLC and its events are referenced heavily in the prologue for the game...as well as again being the whole reason Shepard is in jail if you played it...as has been mentioned...as well as being pretty much the whole reason why they still had a chance so early in the game anyways. Arrival may have had a few issues here and there but I think it stands up pretty well and is the last of METs *really good* DLCs before they start to show significant loss of quality. (Omega, BdTS imo) I don't think DLC's should have major impacts on the main stories of games. If they do, it becomes too much like a "pay to win" philosophy. The main story should stand up without the DLC.
The problem I have with severa; Mass Effect DLC is that they often contradict the main story. For example, BDtS clearly indicates that the attack on Elysium was a Batarian action. However, in ME1, we are first shown Elanos Halliat as a human and now he's Turian. Batarian would make the most sense, since the First Contact War was over when Elysium was hit... but at least Bioware should have been consistent. Similarly, the Zaeed DLC contradicts ME2 in regards to who is running the Blue Suns. Tarak, in the main game is Batarian, but Vido is human. ME2 also contradicts itself on this in that when doing Mordin's recruitment, we are told the Blue Suns are mostly Turian... yet we don't see Turian Blue Suns when recruiting Garrus. On that sid eof Omega they are clearly Batarina and human.
ME3 came to rely on DLC to tell most of the main story. Javik should definitely have been part of the main game and not a DLC. As so should have been Leviathan and even Omega and the Citadel DLC (depending on where they go with ME5).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 11:56:26 GMT
Even if you did believe the threat was real, it doesn't make Hackett's plan any less stupid and suicidal which is grounds for refusal right there. Sheperd is not some solo superspy espionage guy. And he's far too high profile for the deniable thing to wash. He will almost certainly be detected which even if he escapes drops the Alliance and Council right in it because of his high profile (and that's just if he'd been caught spying and attacking people). And seeing as that is exactly what *does* happen, there's little point in anyone trying to defend this crazy 'plan'. Add in Sheperd not calling in with an update and request for backup the second the invasion was confirmed and this dlc is a total write off of previously sensible characters making unusually stupid decisions (the Reapers not informing the Collectors or any other agents of their arrival so they could secure the system just beforehand is another gem - they indoctrinate 1 small team and when the leader is arrested, they just hope for the best that she won't talk or that her presence won't expose the rest of her team... Suddenly, leaving a single Reaper to open the portal in ME1 seems like a much tighter plan...) Bioware themselves all but disowned it in ME3. They could have insisted it happened as written (since there are no actual choices anyway in the dlc) whether you bought it or not. They didn't and since the overwhelming opinion of fans at the time was negative for its zero choices, high emphasis on combat, solo Sheperd and enforced mass murder, its easy to see why they just wanted ro sweep Arrival under the rug ASAP. Sheperd doesn't lose a wink over the 300,000 people but angsts in the most cringe dream sequences over 1 kid he saw for like 20 seconds. Great continuity there, plus nobody on the squad thinks 'Man, 300,000 people? Are you gonna be alright after doing something like that?' They give you WAAAY more awkward 'how do we bring this up without upsetting him' about Torfan in the Ruthless origin. Arrival just sucks. Its *really* badly written and to BW's credit, they know that now. Refusing to do it entirely is a different role-play. Perfectly valid... but then I see no reason to break down and do it after the SM. By then, Kenson should have died in the prison or Hackett should have found someone else to do the job. Hackett just sitting back and waiting on Shepard to come back from a SUICIDE mission in order to save Kenson and the galaxy from what Hackett views as an "imminent Reaper invasion" makes the least sense of any of those scenarios. Unfortunately, the only two dialogue options available to Shepard when talking with Hackett are "I'll make it a priority." or "If I have time." They should have added a simple "No." option to make a refusal narrative work... allowing Hackett to indicate that he's finding someone else to do the job.
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Post by trinity0 on Jun 26, 2021 13:01:27 GMT
I always do Arrival before the Suicide Mission because i want the Heavy Weapon upgrade that you find in Arrival. With that last upgrade you can fire the Cain 2 Times.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 26, 2021 13:08:28 GMT
I always do Arrival before the Suicide Mission because i want the Heavy Weapon upgrade that you find in Arrival. With that last upgrade you can fire the Cain 2 Times. Does that make one forget about get rid of Terminator Baby?
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Post by trinity0 on Jun 26, 2021 15:20:13 GMT
I always do Arrival before the Suicide Mission because i want the Heavy Weapon upgrade that you find in Arrival. With that last upgrade you can fire the Cain 2 Times. Does that make one forget about get rid of Terminator Baby? In the Original ME3 two Cain Shots killed the Reaper Baby. In my last playtrough of ME2 MELE ist was not enough. But it is hard to target the Stupid Baby with the Cain. Maybe it works with two perfect hits.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 26, 2021 15:35:21 GMT
Only if you are a completionist. If you 100% the game before the SM there is nothing to do. If you don't 100% the game before the SM there is still things to do. Building allies with connections is always important when you are preparing for a massive galaxy wide invasion. Particularly when all the governments of said galaxy either don't believe you at all or at best are only willing to give quiet support.
Being a completionist has nothing to with it either. You're conflating role-play with game play. My Shepard is trusting Hackett to have conveyed urgency by describing "evidence of an IMMINENT Reaper invasion." He reacts to that because he himself has been obsessed over a Reaper invasion since ME1. He's not obsessed about stopping the Collectors because he doesn't trust TIM as much as he trusts Hackett. .. so he does Arrival right away... and puts off the lesser urgent tasks of recruiting more people, helping Jacob get closure and helping Miranda move her sister... all of which are the tasks he's given on the same day as the Arrival one... and the narrative afterward, in my opinion, works better because when he's being debriefed by Hackett, he still HAS an IMPORTANT job to complete in the galaxy... that being stopping the Collectors. Hackett's trust in Shepard t the end has nothing to do with it either BECAUSE Hackett lets Shepard go regardless of whether or not Shepard has completed his important job for TIM... and he says the same thing either way... Finish what you have to do out here. For me, the narrative works better if Shepard does have that one important job to finish for TIM when Hackett says that.
You can do whatever you feel convenient for your game. I don't allow the image of Harbinger to interfere with that role-play. My opinion (again, my OPINION) is that the narrative works BETTER before the SM than it does after. My OPINION is that there should be an image of a Reaper there regardless of when the DLC is done.
We're done here... because I'm tired of repeating myself on this... so you all argue away amongst yourselves.
You keep repeating yourself because you keep side stepping my point. Arrival was clearly created to be done post SM. But for the same reason the game doesn't simply end right away and you have to start NG+ they allow you to finish up remaining missions. Arrival works that same set up into the narrative by not having Hackett instantly throw Shepard in chains and dragging him back to Earth.
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