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Post by SirSourpuss on May 13, 2021 14:53:07 GMT
I think that is somewhat true, or at least true for the top two people. I suspect much of bioware wanted it to continue. But they weren't the bosses. A bit later I suspect even the bosses realized maybe people still want Mass Effect, despite their efforts to torch the setting. If they really wanted to end the setting, they shouldn't have ended it with a way that leaves more questions unanswered, than answered. Effectively, if they made Refuse the only ending and everyone died to the Reapers, dick move btw, would be the only way to completely, irrevocably torch the setting.
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 13, 2021 14:58:05 GMT
The problem is that the only one who decides if something's "done" is the creator. You might be done, 75% of the fanbase might be done, but that doesn't mean the creators intended for the story to end. ME3 was certainly written as done. How else can you explain multiple endings? I'll grant that the devs told people to keep their saves - implying that there might be some sort of continuation - but I don't think MEA was it. Import was impossible and irrelevant. I wasn't really commenting on ME specifically, just your broad generalization that "creators keep working on things after they're already done." No one decides "the story" (be it Mass Effect, Game of Thrones, Assassin's Creed, whatever) is done but the creators themselves. For ME I can't say one way or the other. As long as it's framed a certain way I don't see a problem with sequels that canonize elements from previous stories, so providing massively different "end states" isn't a problem to me. And the Reaper plot was the least interesting part of ME for me. I really enjoyed ME3 but ME2 was always my favorite for its focus on the characters and their place in the world (especially the moral dilemmas some of them faced). That doesn't require the impending threat of the Reapers or the galaxy being in the state it was before.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 13, 2021 15:10:06 GMT
It might not have got the hate, but it didn't have enough to love or would it have got as much love as it did from some. Without the established backstory and having to spin a new one up would the story have hit for the people it hit for. Heck without mass effects space magics would even the game play been as good. After playing anthem I'll say no. The flight gimmick was cool but everything else was less interesting. Meh, it was okay I guess doesn't start a franchise. So here's the thing. The "mass effect" didn't exist in MEA. That was the relays. There were no relays in Andromeda and they didn't use that technology to get there. Would it have mattered if we had asari or a different race in their place? Not really, because there's nothing of note about how they breed. Turians? Nope. Salarians? Nada. N7s? Nah. The closest we came was the krogan due to the genophage, something they were overcoming. I'm not seeing how the aliens transported to Andromeda had to have any special reason to exist. Honestly, it would have been just as well to have the humans fleeing/exploring and meeting a bunch of new aliens along the way. That's my take.
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Post by themikefest on May 13, 2021 15:15:02 GMT
Honestly, it would have been just as well to have the humans fleeing/exploring and meeting a bunch of new aliens along the way. That's my take. And with Cerberus leading them, the aliens will bow to our superiority. excellent
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Post by dmc1001 on May 13, 2021 15:15:36 GMT
I wasn't really commenting on ME specifically, just your broad generalization that "creators keep working on things after they're already done." No one decides "the story" (be it Mass Effect, Game of Thrones, Assassin's Creed, whatever) is done but the creators themselves. Okay, granted. I guess if you compare ME to DA, you can see that the DA story is not done. It was left with a clear plan to continue forward. ME ended the Reaper threat one way or another (unless you hated life as you knew it and let the Reapers destroy the galaxy). What else is there to say? And, more importantly, which else would there be to say? Here's my thought on the generalization. See: Star Wars. Pretty sure "Star Wars Fatigue" was stated as a thing. Disney was relentless in putting out SW movies even on "off years". They weren't always good, either. If you have a story to tell, tell it. Don't just add on because you can. That leads to lackluster product.
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 13, 2021 15:36:21 GMT
I wasn't really commenting on ME specifically, just your broad generalization that "creators keep working on things after they're already done." No one decides "the story" (be it Mass Effect, Game of Thrones, Assassin's Creed, whatever) is done but the creators themselves. Okay, granted. I guess if you compare ME to DA, you can see that the DA story is not done. It was left with a clear plan to continue forward. ME ended the Reaper threat one way or another (unless you hated life as you knew it and let the Reapers destroy the galaxy). What else is there to say? And, more importantly, which else would there be to say? Here's my thought on the generalization. See: Star Wars. Pretty sure "Star Wars Fatigue" was stated as a thing. Disney was relentless in putting out SW movies even on "off years". They weren't always good, either. If you have a story to tell, tell it. Don't just add on because you can. That leads to lackluster product. There are a million things to say. Mass Effect is a setting, not a specific story. They can insert any story into it, whether it be the "Citadel C-Sec" game we've talked about for 10 years, a game about building the galaxy back up from ruins, or a game about another galaxy. "Mass Effect" doesn't have to mean "Shepard's story," as much as some would like it to. And the thing is, you can always come up with something to say. Trust me on that one as a creative - there are times when I have some emotion or thought and I express that in a song. There are other times I decide to write a song about a specific topic, without having something specific "to say" beforehand (IMO these are some of my most interesting tracks). It's always possible to have something to say, what matters is how you say it.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 13, 2021 15:38:24 GMT
your right it would be, but Andromeda didn't have those things. That's your opinion, of course, but the point stands. I suggested it ought to have been a new IP and think it would have been better received if the ME expectations weren't in place. Ryder wasn't Shepard, which I believe was the point, but that doesn't mean there was no room for a character like that who has continued growth over the course of the series (were there more games). It's the opinion of the gaming public. The game was a disappointment, to EA. The game was mediocre, regardless of how many people personally like it. Magically slapping a different name onto the box would have changed nothing.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 13, 2021 15:55:33 GMT
This is the fun part of being a BioWare fan, at this moment in time. If you are a blind BioWare fan, nothing critical we say matters to you. This isn't the post you're looking for, move along. Why is it fun? Because they already hurt us as bad as they ever will, and now in my case they also gave me a full chance to recover. I'm now just here for the popcorn, the memes that are already in the pipeline, and then the funeral service. This plan of theirs will backfire unless it is executed perfectly. Why? Because we aren't captives anymore. For Stockholm Syndrome to work, you have to maintain control and fear over your captives. I am pretty sure they lost most of us with any or all of the releases of DA2, ME3, DAI or MEA. The cumulative effect finished whatever the individual instances didn't - we simply no longer really care. I am not invested. They already killed this game for me once, they can't do that to me again. I won't let them, and now with perspective I see how easy this was all along. The destruction has already happened. They can reinvigorate it, and turn some of us into real fans again. They have made that journey incredibly hard for themselves, and I will enjoy the shadenfreude of watching their failure, whilst still hoping (like an idiot little cousin at a picnic) that they'll get their shit together and make something good. Bottom line, he's dead Jim. You're right, they can't emotionally hurt me anymore. Even though I'll follow ME to the bitter end (which honestly might already be here, if DA4 flops) but until they make a knockout, high quality product I don't give a shit. Hell even if DA4 is good, I still don't think I'll care that much. Because DA fundamentally makes narrative decisions I disagree with and am tired of dealing with it. So honestly I might not even get it lol. the next ME would have to be lights out incredible, for me to give a shit again...and honestly, the odds of that happening are abysmal.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 13, 2021 17:41:20 GMT
The game was mediocre, regardless of how many people personally like it. Magically slapping a different name onto the box would have changed nothing. It would have lowered expectations. It is hard to follow up on one of the biggest events in gaming with a single title and nothing left from the previous entries in the franchise and hope to hit the same highs, or even exceed them, just as effectively or easily. If Bioware hoped to do that, they were naive. Which makes the ME3 ending all the more baffling. It's another thing for a singular title like Deus Ex with little idea as to whether it would be successful to even have another title in its universe, let alone 3, and it's another thing entirely to make a franchise, where you can tell any story you want and then nuke it after 3 games. I blame a complete lack of mental clarity and foresight on both Mac and Casey on those endings. They GoT it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 13, 2021 17:58:59 GMT
At this point maybe the franchise should be allowed to die. They’re going to abandon MEA fans. They’re going to betray many MET fans. They can’t even get their old games right anymore. Let the franchise rest.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 13, 2021 18:27:53 GMT
The game was mediocre, regardless of how many people personally like it. Magically slapping a different name onto the box would have changed nothing. It would have lowered expectations. It is hard to follow up on one of the biggest events in gaming with a single title and nothing left from the previous entries in the franchise and hope to hit the same highs, or even exceed them, just as effectively or easily. If Bioware hoped to do that, they were naive. Which makes the ME3 ending all the more baffling. It's another thing for a singular title like Deus Ex with little idea as to whether it would be successful to even have another title in its universe, let alone 3, and it's another thing entirely to make a franchise, where you can tell any story you want and then nuke it after 3 games. I blame a complete lack of mental clarity and foresight on both Mac and Casey on those endings. They GoT it. Who the hell had high expectations after the fucking Crayola ending? If anyone expected anything other than "A slapped together mess desperately trying to avoid and ignore the past" then that's their own fault. I never for 1 second expected anything else. The only thing I didn't anticipate was Bioware taking the Joss Whedon approach to dialogue and character interactions, which I hope we never see again.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 13, 2021 19:01:59 GMT
I suspect we'll see the end of the MEU as well. I also think ME should have wrapped up in ME3. MEA would, IMO, have been better received as Space Colonists fleeing to other galaxy and we never have to even think about RGB again. Ever. EVER. The problem is, and this is by no means exclusive to video games, is that creators try to add onto things that are already done. ME3 was as close to a 100% wrap of the series as you could get. Though I enjoyed MEA, it should never have in any way been a sequel, direct or otherwise. It wasn't. It was a spin-off. Sequels are typically follow-ups that are continuations of what came before. Per the timeline in the wiki: 2176 - Andromeda Initiative founded. 2183 - ME1. 2185 - ME2, most of the Andromeda Initiative sets out on the journey to Andromeda. 2186 - ME3, quarian ark Keelah Si'yah sets out on the journey to Andromeda. They even released a vid that was a final Shepard send-off/sign-off.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 13, 2021 20:20:01 GMT
Who the hell had high expectations after the fucking Crayola ending? EA? Their investors? the gaming media, people that expected answers for ME3 in this title? Some people would. And besides, it's Mass Effect. It's bound to sell by name alone. I can't believe I typed that last one with a straight face. But I'm sure some people felt like that. And then the truth happened. It wasn't. It was a spin-off. Sequels are typically follow-ups that are continuations of what came before. Per the timeline in the wiki: 2176 - Andromeda Initiative founded. 2183 - ME1. 2185 - ME2, most of the Andromeda Initiative sets out on the journey to Andromeda. 2186 - ME3, quarian ark Keelah Si'yah sets out on the journey to Andromeda. They even released a vid that was a final Shepard send-off/sign-off. I fail to see the relevance of this. And this is important, how?
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Post by dmc1001 on May 13, 2021 21:05:24 GMT
There are a million things to say. Mass Effect is a setting, not a specific story. Are they saying something about being filled with green circuitry? Are they saying something about Reapers hovering in the sky and repairing the damage from the war? Are they saying "Thank God the Reapers are gone forever"?
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 13, 2021 21:46:47 GMT
There are a million things to say. Mass Effect is a setting, not a specific story. Are they saying something about being filled with green circuitry? Are they saying something about Reapers hovering in the sky and repairing the damage from the war? Are they saying "Thank God the Reapers are gone forever"? Maybe so, maybe no; I don't know. As much as I'd prefer the latter, the first two put the setting in a far more interesting position (like what might be happening with DA if they commit).
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Post by dmc1001 on May 14, 2021 1:43:52 GMT
Are they saying something about being filled with green circuitry? Are they saying something about Reapers hovering in the sky and repairing the damage from the war? Are they saying "Thank God the Reapers are gone forever"? Maybe so, maybe no; I don't know. As much as I'd prefer the latter, the first two put the setting in a far more interesting position (like what might be happening with DA if they commit). My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 14, 2021 2:07:44 GMT
Maybe so, maybe no; I don't know. As much as I'd prefer the latter, the first two put the setting in a far more interesting position (like what might be happening with DA if they commit). My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth. I feel the same way. I've always chosen Destroy, but I feel guilty about the loss of EDI. Though I don't see why she couldn't be rebuilt, and in some ways....was rebuilt, or reimagined in the form of SAM. But for me the Destroy ending is the only one that ever makes sense because from Day Damn One, that is what Shepard is setting out to do. That was what he was charged with, destroying the Reapers and ending the threat. It would make sense if he saw that goal through tot he very end, even at teh cost of his/her own life (though I personally bawled for days). Not that I disagree with the three choices (synthesis, destroy, control) from a branching story point of view. Give players options, sure. But to me, even though I am presented three choices, only one actually fits my story.
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Post by NotN7 on May 14, 2021 2:56:00 GMT
My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth. I feel the same way. I've always chosen Destroy, but I feel guilty about the loss of EDI. Though I don't see why she couldn't be rebuilt, and in some ways....was rebuilt, or reimagined in the form of SAM. But for me the Destroy ending is the only one that ever makes sense because from Day Damn One, that is what Shepard is setting out to do. That was what he was charged with, destroying the Reapers and ending the threat. It would make sense if he saw that goal through tot he very end, even at teh cost of his/her own life (though I personally bawled for days). Not that I disagree with the three choices (synthesis, destroy, control) from a branching story point of view. Give players options, sure. But to me, even though I am presented three choices, only one actually fits my story. I have mentioned before In another thread, please define synthetic's? who is to say Eddi and the Geth didn't pass their programing back to the servers? since they are software? hehe maybe ME5 will answer that question
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Post by KaiserShep on May 14, 2021 3:11:26 GMT
My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth. I feel the same way. I've always chosen Destroy, but I feel guilty about the loss of EDI. Though I don't see why she couldn't be rebuilt, and in some ways....was rebuilt, or reimagined in the form of SAM. But for me the Destroy ending is the only one that ever makes sense because from Day Damn One, that is what Shepard is setting out to do. That was what he was charged with, destroying the Reapers and ending the threat. It would make sense if he saw that goal through tot he very end, even at teh cost of his/her own life (though I personally bawled for days). Not that I disagree with the three choices (synthesis, destroy, control) from a branching story point of view. Give players options, sure. But to me, even though I am presented three choices, only one actually fits my story. You really have to turn your thinking cap off for the mechanics of all this, because EDI’s quantum blue box hardware might have the limitation where wiping it makes it impossible to recreate the exact personality that was lost, but there’s just no excuse for the geth, which have the capacity to store memories using pretty old-school technology. If the hardware in the quarians’ suits can accommodate these programs, and the suits themselves presumably do not fail when the Destroy wave hits, the programs inhabiting the suits should survive, yet they don’t. It’s simply broken, but we have to just let that slide for the rest of the ending’s “logic” to follow.
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Post by ahglock on May 14, 2021 5:01:08 GMT
I'm on the other side of that. It makes sense in the story for the Geth to be destroyed for if they are still alive they have reaper programing.
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Post by themikefest on May 14, 2021 5:06:30 GMT
What if the geth do survive the red? In ME4, they appear to be ok, but as the game moves forward, the geth start losing what they gained and by the end of the game, they're back to where they were at before downloading the code.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 7:48:29 GMT
What if the geth do survive the red? In ME4, they appear to be ok, but as the game moves forward, the geth start losing what they gained and by the end of the game, they're back to where they were at before downloading the code. This is the bad writing of Legion in ME3. He found a pulsing blob beautiful, and that made Geth ugly. Mic drop. It chose Synthesis already, if you let it follow it's central servo's true desire. I love the Geth of 1&2. Good enemy frogs in 1, nice interesting story in 2 if a little heavy on the tropes. Sufficiently alien for me to love. So, interesting idea, but I think personally that isn't Reaper "code" - it's a bomb, and it has to go with the Reapers. I prefer the Geth survive and just are wiped to default state, but if they die they die. Because of bad writing, not much else of a choice.
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 14, 2021 14:25:59 GMT
Maybe so, maybe no; I don't know. As much as I'd prefer the latter, the first two put the setting in a far more interesting position (like what might be happening with DA if they commit). My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth. That doesn't sound like finality to me, it sounds like the team will pick which of those they want to use in the future. Having different directions for a story to go does not mean it can't continue.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on May 15, 2021 4:29:58 GMT
My point was that they can't all be true. That sounds like finality to me. Me, I go Red all the way with some regret over EDI and even for the geth. That doesn't sound like finality to me, it sounds like the team will pick which of those they want to use in the future. Having different directions for a story to go does not mean it can't continue. Which then invalidates ME3 in almost its entirety.
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 15, 2021 13:09:56 GMT
That doesn't sound like finality to me, it sounds like the team will pick which of those they want to use in the future. Having different directions for a story to go does not mean it can't continue. Which then invalidates ME3 in almost its entirety. Why would it? I don't need to have society validate my choices for them to have been worthwhile. A choice isn't important because of some magical expected consequence down the road - a choice is important because it allows me to, at the moment, define or express who I am (or who my character is - this a really helpful way to think about RPGs).
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