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Post by alanc9 on May 15, 2021 14:54:36 GMT
I'm a little confused by what "invalidation" means in this context too.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 15, 2021 15:29:22 GMT
Which then invalidates ME3 in almost its entirety. Why would it? I don't need to have society validate my choices for them to have been worthwhile. A choice isn't important because of some magical expected consequence down the road - a choice is important because it allows me to, at the moment, define or express who I am (or who my character is - this a really helpful way to think about RPGs). It invalidates it because any sense whatsover that players had agency over the endings is gone. If I'm a pro-Synthesis person, a continuation of Destroy and the motivations of my Shepard, would be completely invalidated. Same with Control. Even with Destroy on low-EMS, I might have had Liara die. You know she won't be dead in any further game and is most likely to be the default romance.
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Post by alanc9 on May 16, 2021 2:24:12 GMT
I'm still confused. Aren't we talking about a hypothetical universe here your Shwepard never existed at all?
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2021 12:24:22 GMT
I'm still confused. Aren't we talking about a hypothetical universe here your Shwepard never existed at all? Not necessarily. The initial post says reboot or continuation.
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 16, 2021 14:22:21 GMT
Why would it? I don't need to have society validate my choices for them to have been worthwhile. A choice isn't important because of some magical expected consequence down the road - a choice is important because it allows me to, at the moment, define or express who I am (or who my character is - this a really helpful way to think about RPGs). It invalidates it because any sense whatsover that players had agency over the endings is gone. If I'm a pro-Synthesis person, a continuation of Destroy and the motivations of my Shepard, would be completely invalidated. Same with Control. Even with Destroy on low-EMS, I might have had Liara die. You know she won't be dead in any further game and is most likely to be the default romance. No it isn't. Agency isn't consequences. Agency is choices. You still make the choice, you don't get to choose the consequences. That doesn't mean it's always satisfying when a game's consequences don't logically follow, but in extreme cases like a character living or dying it's understandable that they'd retcon something like that to support the future of the series. And as a slight tangent this is another reason why it really should be a new character - it's easier to create that break and justify the retcons (and ignore the potential consequences when replaying).
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Post by KaiserShep on May 17, 2021 2:35:57 GMT
I'm on the other side of that. It makes sense in the story for the Geth to be destroyed for if they are still alive they have reaper programing. That’s kind of the problem. Software’s given this magical property at the last minute that doesn’t make much sense. Like, if I have a smartphone and install an app developed by reapers, would the entire phone cease to function simply because of that bit of code? There’s no material characteristic of programming that makes any particular hardware special, but it’s treated as though it alters the properties of the machines in which it’s installed. When it’s just the reapers, there’s at least the inherent connectedness to all of the technology they built, but the problem arises when the wave arbitrarily discriminates between different kinds of everyday tech built by everyone else. The computer systems aboard any ship, or any cybernetic implant, or even an omnitool, should simply go dead too then. How would the destroy wave be able to distinguish between a geth program, and whatever programming the quarians install on their suits for day to day functions?
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Post by MegaIllusiveMan on May 17, 2021 6:03:29 GMT
I suspect we'll see the end of the MEU as well. I also think ME should have wrapped up in ME3. MEA would, IMO, have been better received as Space Colonists fleeing to other galaxy and we never have to even think about RGB again. Ever. EVER. The problem is, and this is by no means exclusive to video games, is that creators try to add onto things that are already done. ME3 was as close to a 100% wrap of the series as you could get. Though I enjoyed MEA, it should never have in any way been a sequel, direct or otherwise. If the writing is good, and the characters interesting, a new IP will be well-received. I agree on that, but it's all about the fanbase. If there are buyers for your product, why not cash it in? It's Star Wars all over again. You could argue about the infinite possibilities of stories to tell on different parts of the galaxy, different time, or even different galaxies, like Andromeda did. Mass Effect, because of the vast universe, has a chance to thrive and span generations if done good. So much backstory, so much species. So many stories that could be explored, even if all the games they wanted to make were prequels for the trilogy, and then prequels for those prequels.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 17, 2021 12:52:25 GMT
I suspect we'll see the end of the MEU as well. I also think ME should have wrapped up in ME3. MEA would, IMO, have been better received as Space Colonists fleeing to other galaxy and we never have to even think about RGB again. Ever. EVER. The problem is, and this is by no means exclusive to video games, is that creators try to add onto things that are already done. ME3 was as close to a 100% wrap of the series as you could get. Though I enjoyed MEA, it should never have in any way been a sequel, direct or otherwise. If the writing is good, and the characters interesting, a new IP will be well-received. I agree on that, but it's all about the fanbase. If there are buyers for your product, why not cash it in? It's Star Wars all over again. You could argue about the infinite possibilities of stories to tell on different parts of the galaxy, different time, or even different galaxies, like Andromeda did. Mass Effect, because of the vast universe, has a chance to thrive and span generations if done good. So much backstory, so much species. So many stories that could be explored, even if all the games they wanted to make were prequels for the trilogy, and then prequels for those prequels. *All* franchises have that potential *all the time*, it's not an excuse for why more effort should be put into Mass Effect in particular. Even at it's most successful, Mass Effect never came anywhere near Star Wars.
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Post by MegaIllusiveMan on May 17, 2021 13:10:57 GMT
I agree on that, but it's all about the fanbase. If there are buyers for your product, why not cash it in? It's Star Wars all over again. You could argue about the infinite possibilities of stories to tell on different parts of the galaxy, different time, or even different galaxies, like Andromeda did. Mass Effect, because of the vast universe, has a chance to thrive and span generations if done good. So much backstory, so much species. So many stories that could be explored, even if all the games they wanted to make were prequels for the trilogy, and then prequels for those prequels. *All* franchises have that potential *all the time*, it's not an excuse for why more effort should be put into Mass Effect in particular. Even at it's most successful, Mass Effect never came anywhere near Star Wars. I also agree with that. Look at Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Battlefield and all those franchises that are milked for money. But let's be realist, Bioware is widely known nowadays for Mass Effect, SWTOR and Dragon Age, so when someone hear gaming news about the company either it's a dev leaving or some of those games shifting focus on production. Oh, and Anthem, but is that still a thing? Thing is, would a new IP work for Bioware? Maybe, but they are too scared and too pressed without leadership, as seen with Anthem and the early days of Andromeda. Plus, if we're talking about money, Mass Effect performed extremely well. People will still buy the product. Just like FIFA, PES, 2K Games or some yearly releases, for example. If it makes them money, the unfortunate truth is that there's no reason not to do another game about it.
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Post by The Elder King on May 17, 2021 13:21:12 GMT
I don’t think that BioWare couldn’t end ME and DA, work on new IPs and be successful. Anthem’s failure isn’t really an indictment on trying to do new IPs, but on various issues they plague/plagued BioWare and EA. I do think they in their current situation, howewer, that if DA4 and NME would fail as Anthem did, that there are good chances BioWare itself would cease to exist. Their next games have to be somehow successful for the company to survive.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 17, 2021 15:52:00 GMT
I suspect we'll see the end of the MEU as well. I also think ME should have wrapped up in ME3. MEA would, IMO, have been better received as Space Colonists fleeing to other galaxy and we never have to even think about RGB again. Ever. EVER. The problem is, and this is by no means exclusive to video games, is that creators try to add onto things that are already done. ME3 was as close to a 100% wrap of the series as you could get. Though I enjoyed MEA, it should never have in any way been a sequel, direct or otherwise. If the writing is good, and the characters interesting, a new IP will be well-received. I agree on that, but it's all about the fanbase. If there are buyers for your product, why not cash it in? It's Star Wars all over again. You could argue about the infinite possibilities of stories to tell on different parts of the galaxy, different time, or even different galaxies, like Andromeda did. Mass Effect, because of the vast universe, has a chance to thrive and span generations if done good. So much backstory, so much species. So many stories that could be explored, even if all the games they wanted to make were prequels for the trilogy, and then prequels for those prequels. This is me: I don't honestly give a shit about the backstory, at least not beyond the First Contact War. Even then, only in a limited fashion. I don't want to see the Protheans visiting the cavemen. I don't want to see the asari looking down their noses at each new species to come on the scene. I could go on, but without a human protagonist I just don't give a shit. I suspect there are a fair number of players who feel the same.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 17, 2021 15:53:16 GMT
I don’t think that BioWare couldn’t end ME and DA, work on new IPs and be successful. Anthem’s failure isn’t really an indictment on trying to do new IPs, but on various issues they plague/plagued BioWare and EA. I do think they in their current situation, howewer, that if DA4 and NME would fail as Anthem did, that there are good chances BioWare itself would cease to exist. Their next games have to be somehow successful for the company to survive. Anthem was Live Service. I think that was the failure. Put out an SP game like people want and it could work. Had DA4 gone done the Live Service route there was no way in hell I was picking up that game.
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Post by The Elder King on May 17, 2021 15:56:08 GMT
I don’t think that BioWare couldn’t end ME and DA, work on new IPs and be successful. Anthem’s failure isn’t really an indictment on trying to do new IPs, but on various issues they plague/plagued BioWare and EA. I do think they in their current situation, howewer, that if DA4 and NME would fail as Anthem did, that there are good chances BioWare itself would cease to exist. Their next games have to be somehow successful for the company to survive. Anthem was Live Service. I think that was the failure. Put out an SP game like people want and it could work. Had DA4 gone done the Live Service route there was no way in hell I was picking up that game. I agree with that, since it was my stance. At least, if it’s was a live service like Anthem. According to Casey Hudson, any DA game could be considered a live service game…but I’m glad we do t have to worry about that. It doesn’t mean that DA4 and NME would necessary succeed, though. Hopefully they will.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 17, 2021 15:57:14 GMT
At this point maybe the franchise should be allowed to die. They’re going to abandon MEA fans. They’re going to betray many MET fans. They can’t even get their old games right anymore. Let the franchise rest. I agree. I enjoyed MEA well enough but BioWare made a point to leave things unfinished that should have been handled by DLC. Instead we got a novel. We haven't seen a single thing to suggest BW intends to even wrap things up, let alone make an MEA2. I'm also of the opinion that Shepard's story ought to be done, that it was done by the end of ME3. I support a new IP.
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Post by Iakus on May 17, 2021 16:21:07 GMT
*All* franchises have that potential *all the time*, it's not an excuse for why more effort should be put into Mass Effect in particular. Even at it's most successful, Mass Effect never came anywhere near Star Wars. I also agree with that. Look at Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Battlefield and all those franchises that are milked for money. But let's be realist, Bioware is widely known nowadays for Mass Effect, SWTOR and Dragon Age, so when someone hear gaming news about the company either it's a dev leaving or some of those games shifting focus on production. Oh, and Anthem, but is that still a thing? Thing is, would a new IP work for Bioware? Maybe, but they are too scared and too pressed without leadership, as seen with Anthem and the early days of Andromeda. Plus, if we're talking about money, Mass Effect performed extremely well. People will still buy the product. Just like FIFA, PES, 2K Games or some yearly releases, for example. If it makes them money, the unfortunate truth is that there's no reason not to do another game about it. To be fair, for the last fifteen years, that's pretty much ALL Bioware has worked on. They've gone creatively stagnant. The one new IP they have tried was little more than a MP-focused shooter.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 17, 2021 16:26:59 GMT
I also agree with that. Look at Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Battlefield and all those franchises that are milked for money. But let's be realist, Bioware is widely known nowadays for Mass Effect, SWTOR and Dragon Age, so when someone hear gaming news about the company either it's a dev leaving or some of those games shifting focus on production. Oh, and Anthem, but is that still a thing? Thing is, would a new IP work for Bioware? Maybe, but they are too scared and too pressed without leadership, as seen with Anthem and the early days of Andromeda. Plus, if we're talking about money, Mass Effect performed extremely well. People will still buy the product. Just like FIFA, PES, 2K Games or some yearly releases, for example. If it makes them money, the unfortunate truth is that there's no reason not to do another game about it. To be fair, for the last fifteen years, that's pretty much ALL Bioware has worked on. They've gone creatively stagnant. The one new IP they have tried was little more than a MP-focused shooter. Yea, and I think Bioware are too prideful to go back to working on "professional fan fiction" again, like BG or KOTOR. So unless they do another new IP, which they might be too gun shy to attempt again anytime soon, I don't see it changing.
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Post by Iakus on May 17, 2021 16:28:59 GMT
To be fair, for the last fifteen years, that's pretty much ALL Bioware has worked on. They've gone creatively stagnant. The one new IP they have tried was little more than a MP-focused shooter. Yea, and I think Bioware are too prideful to go back to working on "professional fan fiction" again, like BG or KOTOR. So unless they do another new IP, which they might be too gun shy to attempt again anytime soon, I don't see it changing. Which is a shame, because BG2 and KOTOR are what made them famous to begin with. Hell, DAO was expressly marketed as a "spiritual successor" to the BG franchise.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 17, 2021 16:51:51 GMT
Yea, and I think Bioware are too prideful to go back to working on "professional fan fiction" again, like BG or KOTOR. So unless they do another new IP, which they might be too gun shy to attempt again anytime soon, I don't see it changing. Which is a shame, because BG2 and KOTOR are what made them famous to begin with. Hell, DAO was expressly marketed as a "spiritual successor" to the BG franchise. Indeed, there are many fictional settings I would love to see through the lens of the "Bioware style". Hilariously I am convinced Bioware would rather literally die as a studio, than go back to that.
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Post by The Elder King on May 17, 2021 17:02:23 GMT
Yea, and I think Bioware are too prideful to go back to working on "professional fan fiction" again, like BG or KOTOR. So unless they do another new IP, which they might be too gun shy to attempt again anytime soon, I don't see it changing. Which is a shame, because BG2 and KOTOR are what made them famous to begin with. Hell, DAO was expressly marketed as a "spiritual successor" to the BG franchise. Heh, I love DAO, but that was just marketing. Which is why despite the game being successful, there were fans of BG and tabletop RPGs that criticized BioWare for making a watered down RPG.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 17, 2021 18:26:07 GMT
Heh, I love DAO, but that was just marketing. Which is why despite the game being successful, there were fans of BG and tabletop RPGs that criticized BioWare for making a watered down RPG Still better than any title in the franchise that came after it. And instead of improving on it, after it became a huge success, it was Bioware's best selling title ever, and the worse reception of DA2 in both reviews and sales, effectively moving half the inventory of DA:O in 10 weeks, they doubled down on it with Inquisition. But nobody had any expectations of Inquisition to begin with.
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Post by Iakus on May 17, 2021 18:29:24 GMT
Which is a shame, because BG2 and KOTOR are what made them famous to begin with. Hell, DAO was expressly marketed as a "spiritual successor" to the BG franchise. Heh, I love DAO, but that was just marketing. Which is why despite the game being successful, there were fans of BG and tabletop RPGs that criticized BioWare for making a watered down RPG. Eh, the tone was darker, but it still bore a number of narrative similarities.
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Post by The Elder King on May 17, 2021 18:30:17 GMT
Heh, I love DAO, but that was just marketing. Which is why despite the game being successful, there were fans of BG and tabletop RPGs that criticized BioWare for making a watered down RPG Still better than any title in the franchise that came after it. And instead of improving on it, after it became a huge success, it was Bioware's best selling title ever, and the worse reception of DA2 in both reviews and sales, effectively moving half the inventory of DA:O in 10 weeks, they doubled down on it with Inquisition. But nobody had any expectations of Inquisition to begin with. I only meant that the comparison wasn’t accurate. It wasn’t a slight against DAO. They didn’t improve on it for different directions from EA. We don’t know what DA2 would’ve been if EA didn’t want to cash in with a quick sequel.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 17, 2021 18:34:42 GMT
Heh, I love DAO, but that was just marketing. Which is why despite the game being successful, there were fans of BG and tabletop RPGs that criticized BioWare for making a watered down RPG Still better than any title in the franchise that came after it. And instead of improving on it, after it became a huge success, it was Bioware's best selling title ever, and the worse reception of DA2 in both reviews and sales, effectively moving half the inventory of DA:O in 10 weeks, they doubled down on it with Inquisition. But nobody had any expectations of Inquisition to begin with. I'd say inquisition was actual a partial return to DAO. It brought back big open areas. It allowed you to speak with companions any time, not just when they had something specific to say. Dialogue tones were improved a LOT (And a welcome relief from ME3's autodialogue and tone limitations to being 1) Sad or 2) P*ssed off) It still didn't compare to DAO, what with the power limitations, mages getting a LOT less versatile, a main enemy who was a pale shadow of Jon Irenicus, and the lack of a major city to explore. Oh, and respawning creatures creating conga lines of death in the wilderness...
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9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 17, 2021 19:17:09 GMT
I only meant that the comparison wasn’t accurate. It wasn’t a slight against DAO. They didn’t improve on it for different directions from EA. We don’t know what DA2 would’ve been if EA didn’t want to cash in with a quick sequel. While true that DA2 was a huge undertaking for such a short time, which is why I try not to be too hard on the game, although as an end product, as a consumer practice, it is the most laughable kind of product imaginable, continuing down the line of DA2 into DA:I was a terrible idea. I'd say inquisition was actual a partial return to DAO. It brought back big open areas. It allowed you to speak with companions any time, not just when they had something specific to say. Dialogue tones were improved a LOT (And a welcome relief from ME3's autodialogue and tone limitations to being 1) Sad or 2) P*ssed off) It still didn't compare to DAO, what with the power limitations, mages getting a LOT less versatile, a main enemy who was a pale shadow of Jon Irenicus, and the lack of a major city to explore. Oh, and respawning creatures creating conga lines of death in the wilderness... I do understand Inquisition has better production values, but that's all that means. It wasn't a step toward the right direction and, as I've posted the NPD records of Inquisition's launch many times, its success was greatly exaggerated. To put it another way, during Inquisition's launch month, the lowest selling game on the top 10 list, which Inquisition didn't qualify for, had ~500k copies sold and to become Bioware's best selling launch, it would have to sell ~3.5 million copies in December of 2014 alone and it still didn't make the NPD top 10 for that month either. Just consider the possibility that Bioware was really, really stretching the truth as far as they possibly could. Also, unrelated, but to the people talking about how Scott Ryder's VA said he's working on the next ME This is from the day of the Will Continue trailer's release. It looks like he knows Ryder won't be in it, but would like to work on it regardless. And it isn't unheard of from Bioware to hire the same voice actor for more than one job. Hopefully, I'll never have to listen to mr. Sarah Michelle Gellar again, though. He was never that good, even as Fred in Scooby Doo.
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✜ The Bunny Chaser
2824
0
6,578
Energizer Bunny 211
So far 2024 is the same as the previous three years...
5,880
Jan 15, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
January 2017
energizerbunny211
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Rumbler1138
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 18, 2021 0:41:35 GMT
I only meant that the comparison wasn’t accurate. It wasn’t a slight against DAO. They didn’t improve on it for different directions from EA. We don’t know what DA2 would’ve been if EA didn’t want to cash in with a quick sequel. While true that DA2 was a huge undertaking for such a short time, which is why I try not to be too hard on the game, although as an end product, as a consumer practice, it is the most laughable kind of product imaginable, continuing down the line of DA2 into DA:I was a terrible idea. I'd say inquisition was actual a partial return to DAO. It brought back big open areas. It allowed you to speak with companions any time, not just when they had something specific to say. Dialogue tones were improved a LOT (And a welcome relief from ME3's autodialogue and tone limitations to being 1) Sad or 2) P*ssed off) It still didn't compare to DAO, what with the power limitations, mages getting a LOT less versatile, a main enemy who was a pale shadow of Jon Irenicus, and the lack of a major city to explore. Oh, and respawning creatures creating conga lines of death in the wilderness... I do understand Inquisition has better production values, but that's all that means. It wasn't a step toward the right direction and, as I've posted the NPD records of Inquisition's launch many times, its success was greatly exaggerated. To put it another way, during Inquisition's launch month, the lowest selling game on the top 10 list, which Inquisition didn't qualify for, had ~500k copies sold and to become Bioware's best selling launch, it would have to sell ~3.5 million copies in December of 2014 alone and it still didn't make the NPD top 10 for that month either. Just consider the possibility that Bioware was really, really stretching the truth as far as they possibly could. Also, unrelated, but to the people talking about how Scott Ryder's VA said he's working on the next ME This is from the day of the Will Continue trailer's release. It looks like he knows Ryder won't be in it, but would like to work on it regardless. And it isn't unheard of from Bioware to hire the same voice actor for more than one job. Hopefully, I'll never have to listen to mr. Sarah Michelle Gellar again, though. He was never that good, even as Fred in Scooby Doo. I actually liked Freddy Prinze Jr and the character of James Vega. I presume that's whom you are referring to....
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