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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 25, 2021 4:51:49 GMT
Anthem has so much potential On paper and in the hearts of some of its players perhaps. But it's pretty obvious that much of today's reaction to the new is 'good, kill it'. It's sad when any IP doesn't make it, but this does mean more resources for ME and DA. I agree every game is going to have someone liking it. Even Alien: Colonial Marines has a group of people that like what it was. The problem is with Anthem is there was no incentive for people to stay for the last year while they updated the game and now that the delay cycle is larger because of the complications from working from home which seems to have hit a lot of different games over the last year. It probably just wasn't a financial recovery available. The other problem frankly with Anthem and just like another recent title is I am not sure they could fix the game without going all the way down the core systems and building it again. Unlike something like Fallout 76 which sold millions at launch Anthem didn't have that cushion of capital to re-invest in the game. I would have liked to have seen what they could have done to repair some of the problems in Anthem, but I doubt the game could have come close to its potential with an massive budget and that just wasn't going to ever happen with how it launched.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 25, 2021 5:06:45 GMT
I'd touched on this before, but I felt that regardless of what happened with Anthem, something had to give over at BioWare. Anthem began at a time when BW still had the Montreal studio and had ~800 people total. Now they're ~550. Even at 800, I felt that in order to juggle 3 AAA franchises (and maintain SWTOR) they would have had to have grown their studios further. Team sizes (and budgets) for AAA games have only gone up, while BW has been shrinking. ~550 is still nothing to sneeze at, but we have to be realistic about how much they can handle. We're also seeing the emergence of a AAAA gaming space with massive team sizes and budgets. Games that BW's will be compared to. Add to that the other challenges and issues they face, it's too much. If Anthem had done better and they decided to all-in with it, I fully believe it would just be one of the other franchises that got shelved. Likely Mass Effect. And this is ultimately why its one of the most difficulty things to do when getting into the AAA GaaS market. If you aren't willing to devote an entire studio to the project, the same way Bungie (w/ Destiny) and Massive Entertainment (w/ The Division) are, then the game is dead on arrival from the get-go. I need to preface, before making this statement, that I fully believe that Anthems failure is solely the fault of BioWare. They didn't cast a vision for the game until the 11th hour, and even with what they created, they didn't even consider the resources needed to keep such as game like Anthem going for the long haul. With that being said, IDK how the hell EA looked at this game, talked about them hoping it would become a 10-year franchise, and didn't come to the conclusion that either {a} if we want this to be GaaS then we need to significantly bolster the studio, or {b} this game is well beyond the scope of what BioWare is capable of, and it may be best to market it as a one and done experience.
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Post by Spectr61 on Feb 25, 2021 5:50:23 GMT
I've stuck with EA for so long, but this is just plain stupid. Anthem has so much potential, you can't just can the game after this much effort and give up. WTF? It has all the potential to be the next big thing, it just needed a bit more polish and more content. THAT'S IT. fucks sake. Hey Wave, Your Ironman mod for MEA was a great lead-in to the flying in Anthem. Agree, shifty decision (over, and over, and over, and over, and over ad nauseam it seems) by Blower and EA. Can't stomach MP without flying now; even the assisted jumps in MEAMP and junk like in DOOM pale in comparison to the full Iron Man.
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 25, 2021 7:02:25 GMT
If anything I'm surprised that EA didn't cut their losses sooner. They funded seven years of development for Anthem and we all saw what they got for it on release. This was followed by a string of mostly undelivered roadmaps. After all this, it would look incredibly risky to commit the massive resources and manpower required to keep a live service looter-shooter going, while BioWare already has DA4, the next ME and SWTOR on their plate and the cited reason for a decline in productivity still being around.
Anthem looked pretty and the flying was nice, but that's just not enough of a base for a successful game.
Of course it's sad for the people who like Anthem. But there was no realistic way of salvaging this.
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Post by traks on Feb 25, 2021 7:11:15 GMT
I'd touched on this before, but I felt that regardless of what happened with Anthem, something had to give over at BioWare. Anthem began at a time when BW still had the Montreal studio and had ~800 people total. Now they're ~550. Even at 800, I felt that in order to juggle 3 AAA franchises (and maintain SWTOR) they would have had to have grown their studios further. Team sizes (and budgets) for AAA games have only gone up, while BW has been shrinking. ~550 is still nothing to sneeze at, but we have to be realistic about how much they can handle. We're also seeing the emergence of a AAAA gaming space with massive team sizes and budgets. Games that BW's will be compared to. Add to that the other challenges and issues they face, it's too much. If Anthem had done better and they decided to all-in with it, I fully believe it would just be one of the other franchises that got shelved. Likely Mass Effect. Before lauch I expected Anthem to replace SWOTOR. Old Mass Effect team builds Anthem up -> game gets shifted to Austin -> SWOTOR gets his finale -> Mass Effect team returns to ME. Didn't work out.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Feb 25, 2021 7:12:43 GMT
I'm just gonna say this...I would have loved this game, had it been made competently. In fact, this is probably the only GAAS game that I would have ever invested in. And yet, I cannot say that I am sad about this, because the game, ultimately, was quite shit. The amount of work it would have needed, to not be shit anymore, was absolutely enormous.
With that being said, I've given up on Dragon Age. I'm absolutely done with their stupid narrative decisions with that franchise. I doubt ME5 will ever see the light of day, but if it does, then that is their last chance for me, personally. This company has truly become a sad joke. Like I can't even make the sarcastic jabs I used to make about them. I've never been one of those guys who said "BIOWARE IS DEAD" every year for the last 10 years.
Thanks Bioware, you restored my faith in DA with Inquisition, then you basically farted in my face while flipping me off with DA4, after teasing sweet nothings with Trespasser. I'm sure the gameplay and combat and all that will be fine because Mr Barret's on the job, but story? No, you guys can kick rocks.
Nevermind the colossal mess ME is in. Like I said, I doubt ME Next ever even comes out, but if it does, it's probably gonna be an abomination of OT and Andromeda, in a failed, miserable attempt to please everybody, which is always impossible, and that's how Bioware will likely finally, no really, actually die away. A studio who failed to do anything worthy of note after Inquisition, a place where everyone in charge must have been poo flinging baboons.
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Post by jclosed on Feb 25, 2021 8:15:05 GMT
As much as I despise EA, I think we must be realistic here. It was Bioware that messed up Anthem in the first place. Sure - EA is the main investor, but they have given Anthem a fair chance. We all could read what a dumpster fire the development of Anthem was. It was a wonder they could even present anything at all at launch day. I personally predicted Anthem would end like this and I was right. And even after several desperate try's to improve things they could not get it right. The Anthem overhaul could only be succesfull if they did an "all hands on deck" type of rescue operation. That simply did not happen, and I am afraid that was the moment Anthem's fate was sealed.
Even while Bioware has changed drastically from their old "roots", they where still a company that primarily concentrated on single player, story driven RPG type of games. Multiplayer games are a whole kind of other breed. You cannot use the knowledge of the former games to shoehorn that in a multiplayer game. It simply will not work. In a single player game you play as the person where the whole game is concentrated around. In a multiplayer game that is not possible, and so the whole story telling must be changed. That was unknown territory for Bioware. Sure - They had some good idea's, but in the end they had no knowledge about what was really important in a multiplayer game. And we all have seen the result. Getting the loot completely wrong in a game that revolves around the party driven looter-shooter concept is not very bright.
I feel really sorry for those that like the game, but I think the game was not savable without a massive investment. As Bioware have to survive I think it was the right decision to put all the resources and manpower they have in the remaining titles. If one of those titles fails also, I think Bioware is no more. Also - I personally hate the idea that all the resources and manpower that was swallowed up by Anthem was taken away from those games that Bioware is (was) really good at, namely story drive single player role playing games. I still get mad if I think about what Mass Effect Andromeda could have been if all resources where not drained from the development of that game, only to be put in Anthem.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 25, 2021 9:05:50 GMT
...It probably just wasn't a financial recovery available. The other problem frankly with Anthem and just like another recent title is I am not sure they could fix the game without going all the way down the core systems and building it again. Unlike something like Fallout 76 which sold millions at launch Anthem didn't have that cushion of capital to re-invest in the game. just wasn't going to ever happen with how it launched. I think this is dead right. Anthem will continue to have it's fans and the concept remains tantalising, but it launched broken and sufficiently unloved to be a launchpad for a franchise. Reminds me of Jade Empire, and it turns out I'm not the only one: "Despite its pedigree and desire to be different, Jade Empire was a failure in many ways. It took two years for the RPG to sell 500,000 copies, the game's camera was the real final boss, its combat often felt like a glorified button masher, and it was riddled with bugs." [Den of Geek]
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 25, 2021 9:37:23 GMT
I'd touched on this before, but I felt that regardless of what happened with Anthem, something had to give over at BioWare. Anthem began at a time when BW still had the Montreal studio and had ~800 people total. Now they're ~550. Even at 800, I felt that in order to juggle 3 AAA franchises (and maintain SWTOR) they would have had to have grown their studios further. Team sizes (and budgets) for AAA games have only gone up, while BW has been shrinking. ~550 is still nothing to sneeze at, but we have to be realistic about how much they can handle. We're also seeing the emergence of a AAAA gaming space with massive team sizes and budgets. Games that BW's will be compared to. Add to that the other challenges and issues they face, it's too much. If Anthem had done better and they decided to all-in with it, I fully believe it would just be one of the other franchises that got shelved. Likely Mass Effect. Good point, but they aren't really juggling the games at the same time, no? We see them stretch the releases out for much longer now because of this.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Feb 25, 2021 9:42:20 GMT
If you didn't learn a valuable lesson after Andromeda, this is on you. Bioware is done.
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Post by aglomeracja on Feb 25, 2021 10:22:28 GMT
I am happy about Anthem development ceasing because it means DA and ME will get time and resources they need. Will they though? With the loss of so many veteran devs I wonder. This is a different Bioware. Do they still have the talent to develop games like their gems of the past? A lot riding on DA4. I think one can hope that they have the talent to develop good games which aren't like their gems of the past. Hopefully they will keep the "essence" of DA and ME as they do it. As for scrapping Anthem, it was probably the only choice by now. The game was abandonned pretty much right after the release when they left it with a skeleton crew, and later it became more evident when that skeleton crew didn't grow after the whole Anthem 2.0 idea.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 25, 2021 10:28:18 GMT
Will they though? With the loss of so many veteran devs I wonder. This is a different Bioware. Do they still have the talent to develop games like their gems of the past? A lot riding on DA4. I think one can hope that they have the talent to develop good games which aren't like their gems of the past. Hopefully they will keep the "essence" of DA and ME as they do it. As for scrapping Anthem, it was probably the only choice by now. The game was abandonned pretty much right after the release when they left it with a skeleton crew, and later it became more evident when that skeleton crew didn't grow after the whole Anthem 2.0 idea. It isn't an indie studio. They will struggle with the high expectations and that might be their doom.
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Post by Spectr61 on Feb 25, 2021 11:57:25 GMT
Merely the inevitable fallout from terrible leadership and their unfortunate decisions.(Looks at Hudson and Walters)
A small, partial "trail of tears" --ME3 endings debacle --DAI moves to Frostshite, suffers the "at the last moment" dev process, launches a buggy mess. --"New" IP (Anthem) siphons resources --MEA craps out, same dev probs as above. Gets abandoned to focus on new IP Anthem. --Anthem craps out. Same dev probs as above. Gets abandoned to focus on DA4.
To me, a simple fallacy of leadership. Compounding bad decisions. By the same people. (Looks at Hudson and Walters again)
Only a partial list, and only a partial list of doofus "leaders".
Slippery slope anyone?
Expecting much from anyone involved in that mess is insanity.
I suspect there will be more than ample blame to pass around during Biowers autopsy.
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Conquer Your Dreams
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Say that you love me
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Feb 25, 2021 15:06:28 GMT
This is a fraud what they did with Anthem.
1) They adverstised Anthem by saying "we will support this game up to 10 years" 2) When game was released and people found out that there is enough content only for 15-20h a lot of people go mad. 3) Sometime after Anthem was released they promised "Anthem 2.0" but there was price to pay - no additional content and no big updates due to "Anthem 2.0" 4) Now they are saying "it's over bye bye" so what did people really get ? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The real support finished 4 months after game was released. Have anyone seen anything from "Anthem 2.0" ? Did they really work on it ?
Or maybe it was just a fraud to avoid potential massive refund requests from players in 2019 ?
Well played EA, well played.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 25, 2021 15:18:30 GMT
This is a fraud what they did with Anthem. 1) They adverstised Anthem by saying "we will support this game up to 10 years" 2) When game was released and people found out that there is enough content only for 15-20h a lot of people go mad. 3) Sometime after Anthem was released they promised "Anthem 2.0" but there was price to pay - no additional content and no big updates due to "Anthem 2.0" 4) Now they are saying "it's over bye bye" so what did people really get ? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The real support finished 4 months after game was released. Have anyone seen anything from "Anthem 2.0" ? Did they really work on it ? Or maybe it was just a fraud to avoid potential massive refund requests from players in 2019 ? Well played EA, well played. You forgot the "roadmap" that vanished into thin air.
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Post by aglomeracja on Feb 25, 2021 16:06:11 GMT
I think one can hope that they have the talent to develop good games which aren't like their gems of the past. Hopefully they will keep the "essence" of DA and ME as they do it. As for scrapping Anthem, it was probably the only choice by now. The game was abandonned pretty much right after the release when they left it with a skeleton crew, and later it became more evident when that skeleton crew didn't grow after the whole Anthem 2.0 idea. It isn't an indie studio. They will struggle with the high expectations and that might be their doom. Given that there's hardly any left of those who made games that old Bioware fans liked, perhaps focusing on meeting expectations regarding the game quality instead of expectations old Bioware fans is the way to go.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 25, 2021 16:33:33 GMT
It isn't an indie studio. They will struggle with the high expectations and that might be their doom. Given that there's hardly any left of those who made games that old Bioware fans liked, perhaps focusing on meeting expectations regarding the game quality instead of expectations old Bioware fans is the way to go. They have to meet EA's expectations first of all things.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 25, 2021 16:47:34 GMT
I'd touched on this before, but I felt that regardless of what happened with Anthem, something had to give over at BioWare. Anthem began at a time when BW still had the Montreal studio and had ~800 people total. Now they're ~550. Even at 800, I felt that in order to juggle 3 AAA franchises (and maintain SWTOR) they would have had to have grown their studios further. Team sizes (and budgets) for AAA games have only gone up, while BW has been shrinking. ~550 is still nothing to sneeze at, but we have to be realistic about how much they can handle. We're also seeing the emergence of a AAAA gaming space with massive team sizes and budgets. Games that BW's will be compared to. Add to that the other challenges and issues they face, it's too much. If Anthem had done better and they decided to all-in with it, I fully believe it would just be one of the other franchises that got shelved. Likely Mass Effect. Good point, but they aren't really juggling the games at the same time, no? We see them stretch the releases out for much longer now because of this. That's really the issue - they're not large enough to handle more than one game in (full) production at a time. So you wind up with the situation we have now where it's 8-9 years between releases in the same franchise. It's a way to go, but I don't think anyone would think this is ideal, and I don't think BW would consider this viable in the long term. It's complicated even further depending on what their Live Service goals are, and what size team they need to support it. If everything had gone to plan, with both MEA and Anthem being genuine hits, I expect BW would have grown their team from 800 to maybe 1,000 or so. Enough that they could comfortably have two games in development at the same time, with a third in pre-production.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 25, 2021 16:56:02 GMT
Good point, but they aren't really juggling the games at the same time, no? We see them stretch the releases out for much longer now because of this. That's really the issue - they're not large enough to handle more than one game in (full) production at a time. So you wind up with the situation we have now where it's 8-9 years between releases in the same franchise. It's a way to go, but I don't think anyone would think this is ideal, and I don't think BW would consider this viable in the long term. It's complicated even further depending on what their Live Service goals are, and what size team they need to support it. If everything had gone to plan, with both MEA and Anthem being genuine hits, I expect BW would have grown their team from 800 to maybe 1,000 or so. Enough that they could comfortably have two games in development at the same time, with a third in pre-production. Yes, and failing just adds difficulty to the next project. More cuts means less success chance. They are in a vicious circle.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 25, 2021 20:37:22 GMT
This is a fraud what they did with Anthem. 1) They adverstised Anthem by saying "we will support this game up to 10 years" 2) When game was released and people found out that there is enough content only for 15-20h a lot of people go mad. 3) Sometime after Anthem was released they promised "Anthem 2.0" but there was price to pay - no additional content and no big updates due to "Anthem 2.0" 4) Now they are saying "it's over bye bye" so what did people really get ? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The real support finished 4 months after game was released. Have anyone seen anything from "Anthem 2.0" ? Did they really work on it ? Or maybe it was just a fraud to avoid potential massive refund requests from players in 2019 ? Well played EA, well played. People need to actually read what is being said for its not fraud, but people that don't want to read. Patrick Soderlund said that "10-year plan laid out ahead of it" that doesn't mean that they are going to have the game last that long or if they will support the game for 10 years if nobody is playing it. What that means is they had a schedule of recycled content that they could drag out for 10 years and get people to buy MTX to support the game look at the cash grab of something like The Division 2. Every few months they drag out another season and charge $10 for it. Does it add anything to the game? Barely a few new lines of dialogue and you get to run the same content over and over again for new objectives. So what is people got mad that the game was only 20 hours? This is what I hate about gaming today, a game must have a certain number of hours to play or its garbage. Then we get these games that are massive and you run around doing nothing just to pad the clock so you avoid that criticism. That in my opinion is what led to Mass Effect: Andromeda because they were trying to give a 100+ hour game because people "get upset" if they aren't playing a game that is padded out. Edit: Mass Effect 1 was a really well done and I can complete it in 5-6 hours and I think that adds to the quality of the game because there isn't the emptiness and padding to make it longer. More filling, less filler. Honesty. If they weren't doing Anthem Next or whatever they called it I bet Anthem would be in the position it is today where there isn't any new content being developed. My guess is Anthem Next was to try and get more players into the game so they could justify making new content. What do you mean people got nothing? I got a 20 hour campaign and a game that is in the condition it should have been at launch. The flying was fun and most of the missions were okay with only one that I really didn't like. There just wasn't a good endgame for it. This isn't Cyberpunk where the game is so broken that they altered refund policies because the game was unplayable for many and complete removal from the Sony store. This is a mediocre game that didn't live up to its potential. Edit: Here is the full quote
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mmoblitz on Feb 26, 2021 11:33:04 GMT
I am happy about Anthem development ceasing because it means DA and ME will get time and resources they need. Will they though? With the loss of so many veteran devs I wonder. This is a different Bioware. Do they still have the talent to develop games like their gems of the past? A lot riding on DA4. We will have to wait to see, but I'm betting they don't. I hope I'm wrong.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 26, 2021 15:04:29 GMT
I don't really see Anthem as ever having great potential. It had flight and that was it really.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 22:03:06 GMT
If I recall correctly Casey Hudson's initial plan was to make a sort of survival game in space, which then morphed somehow into a looter shooter when trying to explain the "fun" of it to EA.
Hilariously enough I think a survival game would have done fantastically given the recent surge in popularity of Rust and Valheim on Steam and Twitch. That would have been Bioware getting out ahead of the pack and predicting trends and would have been Bioware doing something very Bioware-y.
Too bad answering these tough questions to huge publishers like EA make it much easier to follow trends instead of helping to set them.
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Now with HESH rounds!
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The Biotic Trebuchet
Stolen by inquisition forces.
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August 2016
thebioticbread
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Feb 27, 2021 0:13:07 GMT
What game died now? was that some kind of mod of Microsoft TM Flight Simulator or smth (with all these peeps writting about flying)? 
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Post by jclosed on Feb 27, 2021 8:58:16 GMT
What game died now? was that some kind of mod of Microsoft TM Flight Simulator or smth (with all these peeps writting about flying)? 
No - Microsoft Flight Simulator is a game that keeps improving and expanding and gets better every year (mostly by mods). And Anthem... Well....
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