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Post by biggydx on Mar 9, 2021 18:25:39 GMT
In addition, what examples would you give for each type?
For me, Live Service is the manner in which post launch content is delivered. It (1) is typically free content, fixes, or balance changes to the game, and (2) requires an online-connection to facilitate these updates. Games as a Service in my mind is both a revenue and content delivery model designed to retain high concurrent player numbers. In essence, revenue is generated on behalf of the player, often through microtransactions, regular paid-for content, or subscription fees. Lastly, these games are always-online to better facilitate content delivery, while also ensuring they can handle a large influx of players on the companies respective servers.
If I were to give examples of some notable live service titles, I'd include:
- Mass Effect 3 + Andromeda (specifically, the multiplayer elements - Dragon Age Multiplayer - Monster Hunter World - Assassins Creed - Warframe - Destiny 2 - The Division franchise
Examples of GaaS titles would be:
- Destiny 2 - The Division 2 - The Elder Scrolls Online - World of Warcraft
I dont believe Microtransactions are indicative of a live service game, though it is a common practice to include them. For example, Monster Hunter World was a game that received frequent- albeit free - updates, cosmetics, monsters, gear, and events, but had no microtransactions store, though you could buy cosmetic packs on a platforms respective store (e.g. PSN). Live Service also doesnt necessitate that a game be multiplayer, or online-only. Assassins Creed Odyssey can be played offline if you dont want to engage with its live service elements like new events, content drops, or daily/weekly quests for rewards. That said, it supported those updates through a microtransactions store. Same goes with Valhalla.
Theres also a degree of overlap between live service and GaaS as well. Destiny 2 constantly receive new updates, balance changes, and new (or reoccurring) events, which is supported by both a microtransactions store, as well as paid-for Seasonal DLCs and Expansion. These underpin a live service title. The game is also GaaS because it is always online, seeks to keep players invested at all times through seasonal content updates every 3-5 months, and uses the paid-for and microtransactions systems to support itself. The revenue made from those systems helps keep it alive.
I'd be curious to see what everyone else believes these games to be, as the reason I brought this up is largely because of conversations around what a Live Service Dragon Age would have been. Personally, I already thought Inquisition was live service just due to its multiplayer component getting free updates.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 9, 2021 19:03:31 GMT
I think it matters far less what I think live service entails, and far more what EA/Bioware thinks live service entails.
That said... I think it's a broad term and can apply to anything from post-release DLC to straight MMO with no singleplayer component. I think it's intentionally vague and can be applied to any of the games listed above.
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Post by Frost on Mar 10, 2021 0:04:55 GMT
I define live service/games as a service as a method of selling microtransactions that involves adding small periodic updates (dailies, weeklies, seasonal events, etc.) that don't cost the company much to create but which encourage players to continue playing the game and buying more microtransactions. It is similar to the method used in many MMOs but without the large upfront costs of creating an MMO.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 10, 2021 12:42:00 GMT
I think we're at the point where these terms are close to meaningless, now. Nearly every game receives post-release additions or changes of *some* kind, and that's only going to increase, and players who oppose "live service" will either shift their goalposts or change their personal definition of the term so they can play the games they want to without feeling like they've lost or become hypocrites, just like we all did with DLC.
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Post by biggydx on Mar 10, 2021 14:32:19 GMT
I think we're at the point where these terms are close to meaningless, now. Nearly every game receives post-release additions or changes of *some* kind, and that's only going to increase, and players who oppose "live service" will either shift their goalposts or change their personal definition of the term so they can play the games they want to without feeling like they've lost or become hypocrites, just like we all did with DLC. The superfluous nature in which people use it, and its core definition, certainly makes it applicable to a lot of things.
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Post by Xunne13 on Mar 10, 2021 19:39:52 GMT
Honestly I think the term "games as a service" is too broad a topic to defined narrowly. The only real thing they all seem to have in common is a need for an internet connection, whether constant or just for updates. Otherwise, anything goes, be it an MMO or Season Pass or some kind of daily/weeky/monthly challenge.
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Post by Hrungr on Mar 10, 2021 21:41:27 GMT
I think it matters far less what I think live service entails, and far more what EA/Bioware thinks live service entails. That said... I think it's a broad term and can apply to anything from post-release DLC to straight MMO with no singleplayer component. I think it's intentionally vague and can be applied to any of the games listed above. Yeah, the term GaaS is kept intentionally vague by the industry for a number of reasons. This gets into the Product vs Service arguments, the laws in the EU vs the US, ownership, potential fraud, etc.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 10, 2021 22:50:18 GMT
Honestly I think the term "games as a service" is too broad a topic to defined narrowly. The only real thing they all seem to have in common is a need for an internet connection, whether constant or just for updates. Otherwise, anything goes, be it an MMO or Season Pass or some kind of daily/weeky/monthly challenge. I think the trouble with it is the definition is pretty specific but the implications and delivery of that definition is where the trouble lies because there are litterally a million different ways to deliver 'post launch' content or a million ways to have a game with integrated multiplayer. So much so that almost every game has a slightly different spin on it which makes these conversations especially tedious when people basically go 'well this is live service' 'ah but what about this game that does this.' The truth is both games are probably LS.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 11, 2021 9:01:55 GMT
Mostly it's always online and runs through a proprierary "launcher" you have to register and your account is connected to some form of payment service for transactions. It pretty much is desgigned for MP too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 19:50:48 GMT
I generally define it as a thinly veiled attempt at milking their base dry at every possibility.
An MMO without the chops or commitment, is also a close definition.
It is a shoehorned business term from American snake-oil salesmen, as our economy has shifted to a "service" economy so the assumption is that if it is good for business (it isn't) then it will be good for gaming (it isn't).
If you want to talk about disease rather than treating the symptoms, the problem is maximizing (what the shareholders want) versus optimizing (what scholars and sensible people want, we are enormously outnumbered). Maximizing is great until it's over, which I think we will see in our lifetimes.
Anyways, that's a big digression. To be blunt, I define GaaS as a bad idea not worth pursuing.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Mar 30, 2021 4:13:24 GMT
If it requires logging into their servers to play the game, it's a live-service game.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 30, 2021 12:09:30 GMT
Any game that's connected to the internet - including single player games that require updates or have DLC purchases.
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Genshin Impact.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 1, 2021 22:25:24 GMT
Its occured to me that with all the debate,hoopla, and confusion that sometimes the best way to define things it to give examples. Now I think I have referenced these games as live service before but I do not think I have come up with a comprehensive list.
Games that are live service:
-Any MMO ever pretty much. -Witcher 3 Wild Hunt -Civilization 5 -Assassin's Creed Odyssey/ Valahalla/ Origins (haven't played Origins but I know it had a road map launch plan.) Ghost Recon Breakpoint/ Wildlands. -Far Cry 5 -Avengers -Cities Skylines -Stellaris -Anthem
Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game.
-Patches -DLC/ Expansions -Small releases here or there throughout the cycle in between the big DLC/expansions. IE cosmetics, new civilizations in Civilization, new weapons, or new quests like the Lost Tales of Greece in Odyssey...or new game modes like the Greece history tour or the 'write your own quest' thing they released. -Road maps (honestly this is pretty much one of the biggest indications that a game is a live service one for me, if they have a specific plan that they reveal towards launch time about post launch content...then it was done with post launch content in mind...hence LS.) -Live Events-or events that tend to run for a limited time only which gets added to a game and then changes the game world...and then the game world goes back to 'normal' when its over.
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Post by legbamel on Apr 4, 2021 15:35:03 GMT
I draw a hard line between the wild variety of live service elements and the game as a whole as a service. Games or software as a service, to me, means I don't own the thing. I can't play it if they stop supporting it, I cannot play offline if I've downloaded it and they game servers are down. I can't pop in a disc for nostalgia play. SWTOR is a game as a service (though I do still have my disc). Anthem was a game as a service. The rest of BioWare's catalog has had varying types of live service elements and other service that are...less live.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 6, 2021 12:13:33 GMT
It hard to really define what a live service element is for I think it overlaps with a lot of different areas so saying its one thing means that something else will automatically be part of it such as multiplayer. I think live service elements are more about the goals then the actual elements. To me there must three key elements to make a game a live service would be having to log into a server so you cannot bypass functionality, it must also require and in game store, and finally it must have some kind of limited daily quest for premium currency. When a game has all three of those elements then it will feel like a games as a service to me. If its missing any of those things it just feels like something that has been around for long before people started to complain about live service elements.
Its why I don't think not having a live service element mandate for Dragon Age 4 will automatically mean there won't be multiplayer in the game. I just think it means that an extra grind to the game to keep logging in daily.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 18, 2021 10:06:35 GMT
Its occured to me that with all the debate,hoopla, and confusion that sometimes the best way to define things it to give examples. Now I think I have referenced these games as live service before but I do not think I have come up with a comprehensive list. Games that are live service: -Any MMO ever pretty much. -Witcher 3 Wild Hunt -Civilization 5 -Assassin's Creed Odyssey/ Valahalla/ Origins (haven't played Origins but I know it had a road map launch plan.) Ghost Recon Breakpoint/ Wildlands. -Far Cry 5 -Avengers -Cities Skylines -Stellaris -Anthem Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game. -Patches -DLC/ Expansions -Small releases here or there throughout the cycle in between the big DLC/expansions. IE cosmetics, new civilizations in Civilization, new weapons, or new quests like the Lost Tales of Greece in Odyssey...or new game modes like the Greece history tour or the 'write your own quest' thing they released. -Road maps (honestly this is pretty much one of the biggest indications that a game is a live service one for me, if they have a specific plan that they reveal towards launch time about post launch content...then it was done with post launch content in mind...hence LS.) -Live Events-or events that tend to run for a limited time only which gets added to a game and then changes the game world...and then the game world goes back to 'normal' when its over.
So many of those are not even close to being live service. Witcher 3? What are you smoking? Having patches does not make a game live service. That is hilarious. DLC/Expansions is not a live service element.
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Post by eternalambiguity on Apr 18, 2021 16:47:38 GMT
Its occured to me that with all the debate,hoopla, and confusion that sometimes the best way to define things it to give examples. Now I think I have referenced these games as live service before but I do not think I have come up with a comprehensive list. Games that are live service: -Any MMO ever pretty much. -Witcher 3 Wild Hunt -Civilization 5 -Assassin's Creed Odyssey/ Valahalla/ Origins (haven't played Origins but I know it had a road map launch plan.) Ghost Recon Breakpoint/ Wildlands. -Far Cry 5 -Avengers -Cities Skylines -Stellaris -Anthem Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game. -Patches -DLC/ Expansions -Small releases here or there throughout the cycle in between the big DLC/expansions. IE cosmetics, new civilizations in Civilization, new weapons, or new quests like the Lost Tales of Greece in Odyssey...or new game modes like the Greece history tour or the 'write your own quest' thing they released. -Road maps (honestly this is pretty much one of the biggest indications that a game is a live service one for me, if they have a specific plan that they reveal towards launch time about post launch content...then it was done with post launch content in mind...hence LS.) -Live Events-or events that tend to run for a limited time only which gets added to a game and then changes the game world...and then the game world goes back to 'normal' when its over.
So many of those are not even close to being live service. Witcher 3? What are you smoking? Having patches does not make a game live service. That is hilarious. DLC/Expansions is not a live service element.
Who's talking about just patches? Witcher 3 was live service.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2021 18:25:39 GMT
Its occured to me that with all the debate,hoopla, and confusion that sometimes the best way to define things it to give examples. Now I think I have referenced these games as live service before but I do not think I have come up with a comprehensive list. Games that are live service: -Any MMO ever pretty much. -Witcher 3 Wild Hunt -Civilization 5 -Assassin's Creed Odyssey/ Valahalla/ Origins (haven't played Origins but I know it had a road map launch plan.) Ghost Recon Breakpoint/ Wildlands. -Far Cry 5 -Avengers -Cities Skylines -Stellaris -Anthem Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game. -Patches -DLC/ Expansions -Small releases here or there throughout the cycle in between the big DLC/expansions. IE cosmetics, new civilizations in Civilization, new weapons, or new quests like the Lost Tales of Greece in Odyssey...or new game modes like the Greece history tour or the 'write your own quest' thing they released. -Road maps (honestly this is pretty much one of the biggest indications that a game is a live service one for me, if they have a specific plan that they reveal towards launch time about post launch content...then it was done with post launch content in mind...hence LS.) -Live Events-or events that tend to run for a limited time only which gets added to a game and then changes the game world...and then the game world goes back to 'normal' when its over.
So many of those are not even close to being live service. Witcher 3? What are you smoking? Having patches does not make a game live service. That is hilarious. DLC/Expansions is not a live service element.
according to bioware they are and I'll take their word over any amount of collective fan opinion telling me otherwise. As for TW3. I find it kind of amusing that it was basically a prototype to every live service game on the market today. It had a specific road map which released a bunch of DLC including new quests, gear, skins, and entire modes up to the time the expansions were ready...keeping players invested the entire time...until they started relessing the expansions. And yet its not a live service game because live service is automatically a bad thing and everyones favorite CDPR game can't be bad... Can it?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 18, 2021 19:01:04 GMT
according to bioware they are and I'll take their word over any amount of collective fan opinion telling me otherwise. You'd also be taking their word, over other studios and publishers in the industry, though. By that broad definition, every game, every piece of software ever made, is live service and always will be. Which other studios don't seem to apply for their games. Isn't it possible that Bioware are simply twisting a truth into something they can use to defend their choices and states of future products?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2021 19:08:12 GMT
according to bioware they are and I'll take their word over any amount of collective fan opinion telling me otherwise. You'd also be taking their word, over other studios and publishers in the industry, though. By that broad definition, every game, every piece of software ever made, is live service and always will be. Which other studios don't seem to apply for their games. Isn't it possible that Bioware are simply twisting a truth into something they can use to defend their choices and states of future products? actually this definition is near universal. But you either didn't read my post up there where i explained this point or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or to borrow a page from your book, i have adressed this point pretty much every time i have discussed live service games... Which is a lot.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 18, 2021 19:14:57 GMT
actually this definition is near universal. But you either didn't read my post up there where i explained this point or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or to borrow a page from your book, i have adressed this point pretty much every time i have discussed live service games... Which is a lot. I did read it. By your definition, even Baldur's Gate 2 is a live service game. Battlefield 1942 is a live service game. It just isn't. Your definition is by far too broad, to include almost every piece of software ever made.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 18, 2021 19:33:21 GMT
The question is whether it will be predatory live service.
For instance, Pay to win or even needing to buy a "scooter" in EA's KOTOR just to avoid the grind of walking miles between missions.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2021 19:38:50 GMT
actually this definition is near universal. But you either didn't read my post up there where i explained this point or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or to borrow a page from your book, i have adressed this point pretty much every time i have discussed live service games... Which is a lot. I did read it. By your definition, even Baldur's Gate 2 is a live service game. Battlefield 1942 is a live service game. It just isn't. Your definition is by far too broad, to include almost every piece of software ever made. I said: "Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game." Which means, in essence, all LS games have DLC but not all games with DLC are live service.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 18, 2021 20:25:01 GMT
I said: "Features of Live Service Games- As a note this, for me, tends to be a sliding scale, just because a game has some of these things does not actually make them a live service game but the more of these things there are...and the more aggressive/ long term the post launch content the more likely it is a live service game." Which means, in essence, all LS games have DLC but not all games with DLC are live service. Longevity has nothing to do with it, though. Most of the games you've ever played had online of some form or another, long term support, patches, paid expansions/DLCs, but none of them were considered a live service. They do have the majority of the elements you've described, some more aggressively than others and some received support for a longer period of time than others. As for the roadmaps, that's more of a marketing pitch, rather than an actual live service element, since it isn't indicative of the game and doesn't necessarily affect the game in any way. Case in point: Anthem and Marvel's The Avengers. Bioware's intepretation of "live service" in this instance is simply not true. And I think we should make it clear that this is the term of "Live Service" as Casey Hudson has interpreted it and retroactively imposed it to every Bioware game of the past ... almost 20 years.
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