ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Apr 15, 2021 22:15:49 GMT
You can't divide by how many fucks I give.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 22:26:55 GMT
Let's not be irrational about this …
So, just who is giving zero fucks to whom?
The square root of fuck-all?
I imagine so, numerically speaking.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 15, 2021 22:39:28 GMT
All of that is either heavily slanted or flat out wrong I disagree. 1. Who is backing her, probably a lot of shadowy sources. You don't get funded to do insane research and expeditions at a credible bank. She has dealt with smugglers, pirates, bandits in her past. I am not aware of any Colombian cartel funding the search for the Pyramids. Liara has most likely never received funding from any shady source in the past and would have no such contacts. Even in the off chance of a red sand dealer having any interest in prothean archeology, the chances that they would introduce themselves as "red sand proprietor" to Liara, would be unlikely and even if so, I doubt Liara would have accepted the funding. 2. The public push is that they were full of shit about the reapers, but the people in power know it was real. People in power can share information. So a lot of powerful people behind the scenes probably want her as a contact No such information has been made available to us in the setting, that's just conjecture. With the exception of high officials in the Council races' respective governments and the Benefactor, we are not aware of any other high profile individuals aware of the Reapers and making any active effort, to consider Liara as a possible contract and that doesn't even begin to answer the question why would they, to begin with. 3. She was involved in saving the citadel from a invasion. Even if her part was small, just being part of that crew will get her fame. And more than most the crew as she already is known to some degree. She is known for having the worst takes in the archeological community and who knows why she agreed to work under Shepard. Possibly for leniency against possible charges against her, after all, her mother was Saren's accomplice.
4. Mass effect 1 her skills included first aid/electronics/scientist, so yeah she has hacking/tech skills. Alright. I can code as well, I can perform first aid and I can infiltrate, because I have received proper military training. Guess I am on my way of becoming an information broker for the criminal underworld, then. I am arguably much more prepared for it, than Liara is. 5. Yeah she is awkward. That is about the only thing you got right. Not just awkward. She is socially inept. Which makes her unfit to tackle the underground in any capacity, which requires a lot of reading of other people, from a sociological standpoint. 6. She probably has a decent amount of cash as she seems to be able to fund expeditions. She clearly has lots of contacts which is why she can go on these expeditions, many of which are shadowy, and having a shadowy family background isn't really a negative here. Prothean artifacts sell for a decent amount and she has dug up her fair share of them. Nowhere is this explained to us, or are we ever led to believe. None points to any shadowy contacts at all. 7. Who said she has failed repeatedly as a archaeologist. Odds are the funding only comes in once she has enough information to make a expedition likely. She isn't digging a hole randomly. She would have done shit tons of research, used tech skills, contacts to have a very good idea where the next expedition should be. Even the volcano incident might not be a total failure as she could have secured a multitude of artifacts before the geth arrived. I'm not talking about her failing as an archeologist, but as an information broker. Even so, if all her archeological expeditions resulted in success, why aren't her findings recognized by the archeological community? I have not heard of ... in any scientific community, whatever findings a research team makes, are then shared among the rest of that community, cross referenced, verified and either accepted or rejected. In that context, all of Liara's expeditions as an archeologist, so far, would be failures. She is a failure. 8. And no, failing once as a information broker likely does not get you turned into paste otherwise there would be no information brokers as they would all be paste. Or is your argument all information brokers are mary sues now. Most information brokers would have failsafes, contacts that they worked with for years, before striking out on their own, able to procure passports, passage and the ability to hide their tracks, or make sure, in the effect of a failed contract, that they have some leverage over those that might target them. Liara has zero experience in any underworld dealings, is repeatedly shown to be young, naive and lacking foresight. She would be prime material to turn into Quarian paste. I'm not saying she can't wise up, but it's clearly not something she picks up during her tenure with Shepard. Especially if all the time she spends on the Normandy is Virmire and Ilos. In addition to all that, she would also have to compete in the underworld with other established brokers, that would perceive her as a threat and wish to throw her out of the game asap. There is a very logical sequence of events that Liara seems primed to fail, at multiple crucial junctures. And while there is a possibility that she just aces everything, that's a Mary Sue.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Apr 22, 2021 18:44:22 GMT
I could have bought Liara as the an information broker who rose quickly to the top on Ilum say if for the first year Feron was her partner. With him helping her build the business and learning the ropes while using her inheritance to start the business(I imagine Benezia was quite wealthy). He helps her learn that wide-eyed optimism will get you killed, and cunning ruthlessness gets you paid and increases your odds of survival as both an information business and individual. Instead of Feron being captured while recovering Shepard's body I would have had him escape with Liara and the two start an information brokerage together with the ultimate goal of learning why the Shadow Broker was working with the Collectors and the Collectors' interest in Shepard's body. At some point during the two year period of Shepard's "resurrection", the Shadow Broker's agents manage to ambush both Liara and Feron with Feron sacrificing himself to save Liara. As a result Liara's focus switches from looking into both the Collectors and the Shadow Broker, to solely the Shadow Broker. And drives her to wanting revenge for her supposedly dead friend\business partner. This is my head canon since I had trouble buying her quick solo rise to Ilum's top information broker after how she came across so innocent and socially awkward/inexperienced in the first game. Heck I don't take her with me on missions right away after recruiting her in ME1 because I head canon that Ash and the marines on the Normandy are giving her a rushed version of boot camp so she learns basic fire discipline and squad tactics. Also I hate the Redemption comic, or rather almost all the Mass Effect comics since they conflict with "canon" as set by the games.
I don't know if I would call Liara a Mary Sue/self insert, but she is definitely a favorite of Mac Walters.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2021 21:58:05 GMT
She is known for having the worst takes in the archeological community and who knows why she agreed to work under Shepard. Possibly for leniency against possible charges against her, after all, her mother was Saren's accomplice. This is especially true after everything learned by Shepard. She, like everyone, got it completely wrong. There is only one credible source of information regarding the Protheans, and that person is Shepard, at least up until we find Javik.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 22, 2021 21:59:07 GMT
She is known for having the worst takes in the archeological community and who knows why she agreed to work under Shepard. Possibly for leniency against possible charges against her, after all, her mother was Saren's accomplice. This is especially true after everything learned by Shepard. She, like everyone, got it completely wrong. There is only one credible source of information regarding the Protheans, and that person is Shepard, at least up until we find Javik. Eh, I’d say Sovereign and Harbinger are pretty good sources. They were there, after all.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 22, 2021 22:08:03 GMT
This is especially true after everything learned by Shepard. She, like everyone, got it completely wrong. There is only one credible source of information regarding the Protheans, and that person is Shepard, at least up until we find Javik. Eh, I’d say Sovereign and Harbinger are pretty good sources. They were there, after all. yeah but they're not really willing to talk...unless we bow down to them and become their enslaved minions that is
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2021 22:22:00 GMT
Eh, I’d say Sovereign and Harbinger are pretty good sources. They were there, after all. yeah but they're not really willing to talk...unless we bow down to them and become their enslaved minions that is They don't want minions. They want us dead and, if we're "lucky", we get to be turned into goo and shoved inside of a giant machine.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 22, 2021 22:23:53 GMT
Eh, I’d say Sovereign and Harbinger are pretty good sources. They were there, after all. yeah but they're not really willing to talk...unless we bow down to them and become their enslaved minions that is Well, in Control or Synthesis the Reapers would be more than willing to tell us all about the Protheans and all their other races of past cycles who became their...parents.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 22, 2021 22:27:26 GMT
Welcome to the Machine(Reapers and the Borg)
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 22, 2021 22:29:29 GMT
yeah but they're not really willing to talk...unless we bow down to them and become their enslaved minions that is They don't want minions. They want us dead and, if we're "lucky", we get to be turned into goo and shoved inside of a giant machine. sleeper agents count as minions though...at least imo. yeah but they're not really willing to talk...unless we bow down to them and become their enslaved minions that is Well, in Control or Synthesis Harbinger would be more than willing to tell us all about the Protheans and all their other races of past cycles who became their...parents. fair point...I've only ever done Synthesis once, all other times I've done Destroy...oh and I did the Refusal ending once...it was, an interesting experience
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Post by Phantom on Apr 22, 2021 22:32:47 GMT
They don't want minions. They want us dead and, if we're "lucky", we get to be turned into goo and shoved inside of a giant machine. sleeper agents count as minions though...at least imo. Well, in Control or Synthesis Harbinger would be more than willing to tell us all about the Protheans and all their other races of past cycles who became their...parents. fair point...I've only ever done Synthesis once, all other times I've done Destroy...oh and I did the Refusal ending once...it was, an interesting experience Reaper Sleeper Agents personally I believe that they are an under used asset within Mass Effect. Well there are several ways that they can cause infighting, sabotage and opening doors for a flood of Reaper Husks of all stripes in.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 22, 2021 22:36:22 GMT
Reaper Sleeper Agents personally I believe that they are an under used asset within Mass Effect. Well there are several ways that they can cause infighting, sabotage and opening doors for a flood of Reaper Husks of all stripes in. Meh...they still count...somewhat...maybe?
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Post by Phantom on Apr 22, 2021 22:37:49 GMT
Reaper Sleeper Agents personally I believe that they are an under used asset within Mass Effect. Well there are several ways that they can cause infighting, sabotage and opening doors for a flood of Reaper Husks of all stripes in. Meh...they still count...somewhat...maybe?
Well have you played Dead Space?
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 22, 2021 22:41:01 GMT
Meh...they still count...somewhat...maybe?
Well have you played Dead Space? I haven't...and I don't plan on doing so either...I'm not overly fond of the genre...I'm not a horror fan I mean, the occasional gore (within reason) and jump scare is fine...but everything other then that...yeah...no thanks
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Post by Phantom on Apr 22, 2021 22:45:07 GMT
Well have you played Dead Space? I haven't...and I don't plan on doing so either...I'm not overly fond of the genre...I'm not a horror fan I mean, the occasional gore (within reason) and jump scare is fine...but everything other then that...yeah...no thanks
Well Within Dead Space, they have a thing called the Marker. Markers have negative effects that are both subtle and overt that are pure nightmare fuel. Reaper tech has the same potential for same level of nightmare fuel as the Markers from Dead Space.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 22, 2021 22:51:44 GMT
I haven't...and I don't plan on doing so either...I'm not overly fond of the genre...I'm not a horror fan I mean, the occasional gore (within reason) and jump scare is fine...but everything other then that...yeah...no thanks
Well Within Dead Space, they have a thing called the Marker. Markers have negative effects that are both subtle and overt that are pure nightmare fuel. Reaper tech has the same potential for same level of nightmare fuel as the Markers from Dead Space. ugh don't remind me of nightmare fuel, Reaper husks still give me nightmares just the sound they make and the...ugh None of the reaper forces scare me as much as husks hated them in ME1, hated them even more in ME2 (especially during the Reaper IFF mission) and I despised them during ME3 when they got their new grabby attack and you have to tear them of to stomp their heads to goo
I'm not looking forward fighting them again in the remaster
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Post by themikefest on Apr 22, 2021 23:10:28 GMT
She is known for having the worst takes in the archeological community and who knows why she agreed to work under Shepard. Possibly for leniency against possible charges against her, after all, her mother was Saren's accomplice. This is especially true after everything learned by Shepard. She, like everyone, got it completely wrong. There is only one credible source of information regarding the Protheans, and that person is Shepard, at least up until we find Javik. I agree. It's a missed opportunity that could have the cipher play a bigger role. Here's a few things about the cipher.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 22, 2021 23:14:52 GMT
Well Within Dead Space, they have a thing called the Marker. Markers have negative effects that are both subtle and overt that are pure nightmare fuel. Reaper tech has the same potential for same level of nightmare fuel as the Markers from Dead Space. ugh don't remind me of nightmare fuel, Reaper husks still give me nightmares just the sound they make and the...ugh None of the reaper forces scare me as much as husks hated them in ME1, hated them even more in ME2 (especially during the Reaper IFF mission) and I despised them during ME3 when they got their new grabby attack and you have to tear them of to stomp their heads to goo
I'm not looking forward fighting them again in the remaster Well that is normal
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Post by helios969 on Apr 23, 2021 8:41:09 GMT
Well Within Dead Space, they have a thing called the Marker. Markers have negative effects that are both subtle and overt that are pure nightmare fuel. Reaper tech has the same potential for same level of nightmare fuel as the Markers from Dead Space. ugh don't remind me of nightmare fuel, Reaper husks still give me nightmares just the sound they make and the...ugh None of the reaper forces scare me as much as husks hated them in ME1, hated them even more in ME2 (especially during the Reaper IFF mission) and I despised them during ME3 when they got their new grabby attack and you have to tear them of to stomp their heads to goo
I'm not looking forward fighting them again in the remaster I wished they had combined the ME1 electrical discharge attack with the grabby attack of ME3. That would have made things really fun.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 23, 2021 11:03:16 GMT
ugh don't remind me of nightmare fuel, Reaper husks still give me nightmares just the sound they make and the...ugh None of the reaper forces scare me as much as husks hated them in ME1, hated them even more in ME2 (especially during the Reaper IFF mission) and I despised them during ME3 when they got their new grabby attack and you have to tear them of to stomp their heads to goo
I'm not looking forward fighting them again in the remaster I wished they had combined the ME1 electrical discharge attack with the grabby attack of ME3. That would have made things really fun. psh...as if them exploding wasn't bad enough
My way of dealing with husks in ME2 is Shockwave....too bad Shockwave works different in ME3 (at least I believe it does...been a while since I played)
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Post by winterking on May 10, 2021 10:06:56 GMT
The only that could qualify is Commander Shepard.
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Post by andydandymandy on May 10, 2021 22:43:18 GMT
Why isn't the lead character of Mass Effect Andromeda not on here? Ryder has an A.I. in their head that allows them to change their class in one playthrough with a simple respec. They can turn on and off their biotic-ness at will, basically (hey, remember when being a biotic in the Mass Effect universe used to mean something?).
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Post by Radec on May 10, 2021 23:04:08 GMT
Why isn't the lead character of Mass Effect Andromeda not on here? Ryder has an A.I. in their head that allows them to change their class in one playthrough with a simple respec. They can turn on and off their biotic-ness at will, basically (hey, remember when being a biotic in the Mass Effect universe used to mean something?). Yeah, if we're leveling this at any ME protaganist, it's not the N7 who already has over a decade of the best training and experience the entire human military industrial complex can provide, and who has stacked so many bodies by the start of the story that they're already a relative big shot within this galaxy to the point the most elite Council military organization is already scouting them. No, it's definitely instead the teenager who guarded a relay in an uncontested system one time (i.e. never been in a battle before) yet slaughters half a cluster's worth of enemies no sweat, also easily outdoing all the other species Pathfinders whom all have far more impressive backgrounds and also access to the same AIs in their head, yet die like chumps aside the useless Salarian one, who needs Ryder to go out of his way to save her ark as well as herself from a few mindless kett drones she should have no problem gunning down by the dozens, just as literal no experience Ryder does first day on the job without even having the AI yet(basically she's useless too). It's a testament to the fact Ryder is so forgettable that they haven't been mentioned more.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 11, 2021 0:37:42 GMT
Shepard definitely isn't one unless you choose to play them as such. I sure don't. And I can see what people mean about Liara, but I wouldn't call her one. We meet her by rescuing her from a helpless position she brought on herself, plenty of characters dislike and mistrust her, she never comes across as outshining anyone else in combat, and shows a lot of emotional fragility compared to everyone else. And From The Ashes completely does away with the notion that she's actually any good at being an archeologist.
I would, however, say that Garrus comes pretty close, considering his apparent total lack of character flaws, badassery and general level of respect throughout the games. Tali as well, if it wasn't for her thoughts on the Geth and her Homeworld which sometimes directly get in the way of the overall conflict.
The two of them both suddenly and jarringly jumping in rank to the point of rivaling the leaders of their respective species for authority in spite of how stratified those command structures are portrayed as until then would be a typical Mary Sue red flag.
Everybody except Liara can die, though, and very perfunctorily at that. So depending on how precious you are about keeping your squadmates alive the trilogy averts the trope pretty thoroughly.
And Ryder isn't a Mary Sue either. They start out very distrusted, their choices and qualifications are maligned and criticized fairly regularly throughout Andromeda, and the tools they use to succeed are all external ones, even SAM. You're never given any impression that there's something super special about Ryder themselves, and that someone else in their situation with their tools couldn't have done just as well.
They're just forgettable, and leave a feeling of confusion that nobody else acts on how obviously unsuitable they are for their position at the outset even though it's clearly recognized and pointed out. Making the Initiative feel incompetent and indecisive, rather than presenting Ryder as a super special snowflake.
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