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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2021 14:25:21 GMT
Because that is what is shown. DNA isn't changed it is overlaid with technology. With technology either enhancing or maintaining the original body. Or lets put this another way. Your grandpa is suffering from severe dementia and practically can't remember his own name due to neurological decay. We then insert nano machines into his brain that creates artificial connections between the neurons and in some cases replaces the dead neurons in his brain. The result is that while some memories are gone due to the death of neurons in his brain, his mind is now as good if not better then someone in their 20's. And he is now better at recalling memories due to the enhancements of the nano machines in his brain. Did we just kill your grandpa? Would you look at him and treat him like some disgusting freak of nature to be burned at the stake because his brain is now part machine? Or is he still your grandpa, with the same memories and history just with technology infused into his brain and saving him from a slow decline into a vegetative state? Philosophically? Yes, you essentially just killed grandpa and replaced him with another person that more or less works like him, and he would be perfectly justified in feeling weird and a uncomfortable with the fact that you artificially changed him in order to make him better to your own mind, and think of himself as less of a real person, even if it was a good idea and worked perfectly and he was also eternally grateful. Whether or not you would actually have killed him would depend on the exact mechanics of the operation, which we're never told about. As I said, I don't see the 'feeling violated' aspect of Synthesis as being anywhere near its biggest problem, but it's still valid. I don't know how you imagine medical operations that aren't specifically life-saving to work ethically, but they tend to require informed consent from the patient or from the patient's family no matter how much of a no-brainer some random person thinks the decision is. As a doctor you don't get to just shove your highly theoretical untested experimental technology in people's skulls just because they have a problem and you hope it won't hurt them more than it helps, and if you do then you're immediately and harshly tried and jailed as a dangerous madman and a criminal. In this case our grandpa isn't suffering from severe dementia either, he's suffering from a bad habit of occasionally voluntarily building things that end up burning down his house. Making him half-machine isn't a fix for the problem he has, it's changing him into something else that you vaguely hope won't have the same issue. A better comparison would be going to Central Isreal and forcefully subjecting all the Palestinians and all the Israelites to identical brainwashing and physical reconditioning and drug regimen in the hope that then they won't fight anymore, except one side isn't even alive or human to begin with. Complete insanity. Which is another hypocrisy in this whole idea. If you accept the conceit that EDI and the Geth are sentient and existentially noteworthy living creatures in their own right, then aren't you hugely violating them by arbitrarily forcing organic emotions and "understanding" on them? It's not just a physical change for them, it's a fundamental psychological one that's going to completely change the trajectory of their development, existences and efficiency as individual units. I don't think you know what philosophically means. Because by that logic getting new hip would be killing him because it would be another person who more or less works like him.
Violated aspect is largely irrelevant when compared to the potential cost. Not only do you risk the death of the current cycle. But you will subjective future generations to years of war and death and ultimate destruction. This is were nativity seems to show up a little in people's world views. There are absolutely cases were doing thing that are morally wrong are the right thing to do to prevent further suffering. The Genophage is a great in game example. The Krogan were slowly pushing the Asari, Salarians and later Turians back. Simply over whelming them with sheer numbers and willing to inflict horrific damages like dropping asteroids on garden planets to kill the planet and everyone on it. The krogan would not stop until all other races were killed or enslaved by them. So the Salarians created the genophage and the Turians released it. Violating the Krogan to infect them with it which caused wide spread still births. Which slowed the tide of new Krogan recruits. Which allowed the Asari, Salarian and Turians to rally and push the Krogan back. Eventually defeating them.
They violated the Krogan and thousands of years of stability and peace (or at least as close to peace will ever be) existed in the galaxy for thousands of years. At least until the Quarians and Geth conflicted happened. And speaking from a pure human point of view. Humanity was met with the Turians who engaged in a small scale war before backing down with pressure from the Council to allow humanity to join the galactic community. Compare this to Krogans who would have found humanity, brutally crushed and killed/enslaved them and drained Earth of any remaining resources before moving on.
What give a parent the right to consent to actions performed on their children? You want to talk about philosophy then this is actually some philosophy. How does a child coming out of their genitals give someone the right to decide what happens to their body? This extends to all sorts of things from minor things like tattoos and drinking to uncomfortable things like sex and abortions. And it always follows the people who make this body autonomy is the most important argument suddenly start making all sorts of excuses and exceptions.
That is an incorrect summary of events. The issue is the gap between organic and synthetic gives synthetic life the advantage. Synthetics by design are created to far surpass organic life in every metric possible. What would take a human, Salarian or Asari decades to learn an AI could learn it in half the time. The millions of years of selective evolution that allowed the Krogan to have such great strength an AI could make a thousand bodies on an assembly line that could punch though armor and rip out a Krogan's heart like a mortal kombat fatality. The entire Morning War were the Geth killed billions of Quarians in 2 years shows the over whelming capabilities of synthetics. Even when they are extremely basic versions like the Geth. The Geth also show that the creation doesn't' have to be deliberate for synthetic life to develop. The Geth were never created with the intention of making a fully sentient and self aware program. It was created with the intent to do the dirty work that the Quarians didn't want to do.
How do you dumb down EDI and the Geth without enforcing program blocks and other restrictions on them? How do you enforce the idea that the Geth collective isn't allowed to know anything more about quantum mechanics then the Asari know? How do you prevent the Geth from developing a targeting system that allows for 98% pin point accuracy with small arms when a Turian solider is only capable of an 80% accuracy? How do you get the newly developed Bareetha race to see organic life as equals when the Salarians treat the Krogan as nothing more then animals? And how would you enforce these changes without building massive resentment at being deliberately held back by the limits and contradictory nature of organic life?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2021 14:50:27 GMT
^^^ The definition of philosophy was cute. Completely unnecessary for anyone in this discussion, with the possible exception of the one who posted it.
I have seen today that there is no need to buy the LE at all for me. I will download it from the Nexus for the cost of free free free.
...
In the Grandpa example, I was reminded of the ship of Theseus, and how un-Theseus new Grandpa Theseus was. You say you like philosophy and understand what it means, read the Ship of Theseus and then let's discuss philosophically again about Grandpa.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 18, 2021 15:41:28 GMT
I don't think you know what philosophically means. Because by that logic getting new hip would be killing him because it would be another person who more or less works like him. *facepalm* Yes. It would. That's why I said it. Philosophically, you're also a different person every time you have a new thought or shed a skin cell, which happens 30.000 times a day. My point with using that word was that grandpa might disagree with you about what would and what would not constitute killing him as a person, and by default his idea trumps yours when it comes to his life and his body. Violated aspect is largely irrelevant when compared to the potential cost. Not only do you risk the death of the current cycle. But you will subjective future generations to years of war and death Strictly limited atrocities, necessary or otherwise, committed against each other by organics are intentionally committed by sentient organic beings trying to make things better according to their own understanding. Letting a god-machine you've spoken to for five minutes apply completely arbitrary changes to the biologies and psychologies of all life everywhere forever because you vaguely liked its sales pitch isn't quite the same thing. What give a parent the right to consent to actions performed on their children? That their children aren't judged mentally capable of taking responsibility for the decision, and that as the child's nearest kin they're statistically judged to be the people most likely to be able to weigh the child's needs and circumstances and wants against each other as rational adults? And yes, there are sometimes debates, which is funnily enough why governments ideally impose laws about those things based on majorities, professional advice and the experience of exceptionally respected members of the public. You'll also notice that things like direct medical interventions are taken especially seriously and restrictions on those are applied especially consistently across the globe, compared to things like alcohol and sex.  How do you dumb down EDI and the Geth without enforcing program blocks and other restrictions on them? How do you enforce the idea that the Geth collective isn't allowed to know anything more about quantum mechanics then the Asari know? How do you prevent the Geth from developing a targeting system that allows for 98% pin point accuracy with small arms when a Turian solider is only capable of an 80% accuracy? How do you get the newly developed Bareetha race to see organic life as equals when the Salarians treat the Krogan as nothing more then animals? And how would you enforce these changes without building massive resentment at being deliberately held back by the limits and contradictory nature of organic life? Destroy them, or accept that the cycle of organic and machine conflict is an inherent part of what life is in the long run? I sure don't care if a bunch of toasters are fried, or if lines of 1's and 0's on the other side of the galaxy are frustrated by not being allowed to expand their pointless robot empire faster than we can deal with them by an infinitely more powerful entity dedicated to that exact purpose. But my point was more that if EDI and the Geth are considered truly sentient then even if Synthesis hypothetically wasn't a massive violation of organic bodies and natures on the order of genocide then it would still definitely be one for synthetics. If someone cares about such a thing, I mean.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2021 16:01:53 GMT
Strictly limited atrocities, necessary or otherwise, committed against each other by organics are intentionally committed by sentient organic beings trying to make things better according to their own understanding. Letting a god-machine you've spoken to for five minutes apply completely arbitrary changes to the biologies and psychologies of all life everywhere forever because you vaguely liked its sales pitch isn't quite the same thing. Atrocities like the ones you’re referring to are never necessary. But we finally agree on something. Synthesis is nowhere near the same thing as those atrocities you refer to like the Holocaust or other genocides or atrocities. Those are far worse. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2021 16:05:34 GMT
I preordered a physical version at GameStop.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 18, 2021 16:27:08 GMT
Atrocities like the ones you’re referring to are never necessary. But we finally agree on something. Synthesis is nowhere near the same thing as those atrocities you refer to like the Holocaust or other genocides or atrocities. Those are far worse. *shrugs* However necessary from whatever perspective they're committed according to, then. Far better or far worse than the Holocaust and so on, depending on whether the optimistic or the pessimistic interpretation of the ending holds more true. As I already said, if Synthesis is as bad as it potentially could be then the continued harvesting of civilizations every 50.000 years is far preferable. Each of which is obviously worse in scope than the Holocaust was by several orders of magnitude. For reference, if I was presented with a button that launched Synthesis across the galaxy with only the explanation Shepard is given by the Catalyst and no other details, and one that repeated the Holocaust here on Earth exactly as we experienced it in the 40's, and I was forced to press one of them, then I'd have to think long and hard about not hammering that second button just to avoid gambling with the existence of all present and future life. However, if Synthesis really was exactly what it's presented to be with no unmentioned downsides for the human race or our consciousness as your more superficial interpretation of it posits then sure, I guess maybe it's better than the Holocaust or similar genocides. Shepard doesn't really have that guarantee though, and that choice affects a million times more people whereas we know exactly what we're getting with the Holocaust. And if you can't stand that idea then don't bring it up.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 18, 2021 16:46:30 GMT
Jinkys the endings again? I pre ordered through Origin (to stay on topic) It's the "gift" that keeps on giving. 😉 |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 1:42:25 GMT
*facepalm* Yes. It would. That's why I said it. Philosophically, you're also a different person every time you have a new thought or shed a skin cell, which happens 30.000 times a day. My point with using that word was that grandpa might disagree with you about what would and what would not constitute killing him as a person, and by default his idea trumps yours when it comes to his life and his body.
So basically you mean your statement is utterly irrelevant. And bringing up philosophy is pretty much a pointless waste of time that can be ignored because it is so bat shit insane you literally kill yourself every time you waver between wanting Taco Bell and Mc Donalds for lunch.
Letting a god machine that has existed for billions of years and accumulated untold amounts of data charting the development of races and their inevitable extinction. And noticing trends and patterns that develop out of the millions of different races all with different origins and growth. Your specific choice of words being arbitrary is rather amusing because it has so many connections to the current world pandemic. Were random people on the internet question the advice of scientist who's job is literally to study infectious diseases and work on plans on how to counter a pandemic. Scientists say to wear masks and social distance. So you say that it all arbitrary and go without a mask to a large group event while you sit close to each other. Then half of you die from Covid and the rest are left with life long health issues while you stand around saying all this death and pain is worth it for your freedom. I do enjoy the argument that anything that goes against a world view must be arbitrary. It is that kind of attitude that keeps us repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
And how do you judge mentally capable of taking responsibly for the decisions? Were is the law in nature? Were is the measurable fundamental aspect of nature equivalent to water freezing at 32F at sea level that says X age makes them mentally capable of taking responsibility for the decisions? Or is this idea simply something we created out of thin air base on ideas and principles we also created out of thin air? When you really start to examine a lot of modern ideology you really start to notice how much of it is base simply on ideas we created out of thin air and enforce as if it is the absolute truth of the matter.
Destroy them and new ones will rise up. Perpetuate the cycle of war means trillions will die over and over again needlessly and pointlessly. You will let countless others suffer simply because you won't be around to experience it. The selfish and self centered reasoning behind that is staggering. You would rather willingly and knowingly commit entire generations to the grave then accept a mild inconvenience at most.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 19, 2021 2:36:27 GMT
Violated aspect is largely irrelevant when compared to the potential cost. Not only do you risk the death of the current cycle. But you will subjective future generations to years of war and death and ultimate destruction.
This is where the I feel it fails convincing. The risk to civilization in the current cycle is not explicitly stated to be any greater than our other options here in the immediate results of the choice. Each option comes with it plenty of unknowns, and the thing that exacerbates this issue is that the only being to discuss this with considers its macabre form of “preservation” as valid. It doesn’t even matter if it’s just BioWare’s penchant for overdone body horror; that’s the method by which it must be judged. As for future generations being subject to years of war and death.......what else is new? If anything, the history of even just this cycle proves well enough that these races are well capable of wiping each other out without synthetics to get into the mix. The salarians’ meddlesome nature has caused more death and destruction than the geth could ever hope. Unless Synthesis lobotomizes everyone and makes resource management and politics a thing of the past, war and death is a guarantee on a long enough timeline.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 19, 2021 2:53:03 GMT
Violated aspect is largely irrelevant when compared to the potential cost. Not only do you risk the death of the current cycle. But you will subjective future generations to years of war and death and ultimate destruction.
This is where the I feel it fails convincing. The risk to civilization in the current cycle is not explicitly stated to be any greater than our other options here in the immediate results of the choice. Each option comes with it plenty of unknowns, and the thing that exacerbates this issue is that the only being to discuss this with considers its macabre form of “preservation” as valid. It doesn’t even matter if it’s just BioWare’s penchant for overdone body horror; that’s the method by which it must be judged. As for future generations being subject to years of war and death.......what else is new? If anything, the history of even just this cycle proves well enough that these races are well capable of wiping each other out without synthetics to get into the mix. The salarians’ meddlesome nature has caused more death and destruction than the geth could ever hope. Unless Synthesis lobotomizes everyone and makes resource management and politics a thing of the past, war and death is a guarantee on a long enough timeline. I can see the logic of the Salarians in studying various species. Uplifting Krogan is short term a good idea due to the Rachni Wars but the long term it was a bad idea given the nature of the Krogan. Messing with an equally dangerous if not more dangerous species within the Yagh is just as bad idea in the long term. Well lets face it, Yagh is just as durable and strong as a Krogan and We all know that one Yagh became a Shadow Broker thru his cunning and hidden himself for decades.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 19, 2021 6:47:34 GMT
So basically you mean your statement is utterly irrelevant. And bringing up philosophy is pretty much a pointless waste of time that can be ignored because it is so bat shit insane you literally kill yourself every time you waver between wanting Taco Bell and Mc Donalds for lunch. You know what? Go ahead and forget it. Nobody is forcing you to respond to my arguments and clearly the point was a little abstract for you. I'm sorry about confusing you, it wasn't my intention.  Letting a god machine that has existed for billions of years and accumulated untold amounts of data charting the development of races and their inevitable extinction. And noticing trends and patterns that develop out of the millions of different races all with different origins and growth. Your specific choice of words being arbitrary is rather amusing because it has so many connections to the current world pandemic. Were random people on the internet question the advice of scientist who's job is literally to study infectious diseases and work on plans on how to counter a pandemic. Scientists say to wear masks and social distance. So you say that it all arbitrary and go without a mask to a large group event while you sit close to each other. Then half of you die from Covid and the rest are left with life long health issues while you stand around saying all this death and pain is worth it for your freedom. Covid experts are fellow human beings.  And they've generally dedicated years of their short human lives to earning positions of trust within the medical community, which has really strict doctrines about helping without hurting on your behalf. You have reason to expect them to be working and thinking with your interests in mind. You don't have that with a machine designed by aliens a billion years ago for a completely different purpose with a completely different goal that you just met, who is enacting a routine galaxy-wide genocide as you speak because that's what its math said was the right thing to do for optimal peace and balance in the galaxy literally until you kicked the door in. That's what arbitrary means, by the way. Unpredictable, inconsistent and irrational standards and solutions. Usually not an indicator of great decision-making ability from a human point of view. The word exists for a reason, and this is one of them. And how do you judge mentally capable of taking responsibly for the decisions? Were is the law in nature? Were is the measurable fundamental aspect of nature equivalent to water freezing at 32F at sea level that says X age makes them mentally capable of taking responsibility for the decisions? Or is this idea simply something we created out of thin air base on ideas and principles we also created out of thin air? When you really start to examine a lot of modern ideology you really start to notice how much of it is base simply on ideas we created out of thin air and enforce as if it is the absolute truth of the matter. Because their brains generally aren't sufficiently developed by that point yet? Talk to any civilized lawmaker in the world and they'll tell you that the point of laws is to try to figure out where to set limits so they have as statistically beneficial an effect as possible while doing as little overall damage as possible. Life and people are complicated and no system is perfect, but that doesn't mean that the systems we build are senseless or pulled out of thin air. Most things have a purpose for being the way they are, even if you haven't personally gotten it yet. And I have no earthly idea what ideology has to do with this, or where you think you're going with it. This is a really strange tangent. Destroy them and new ones will rise up. Perpetuate the cycle of war means trillions will die over and over again needlessly and pointlessly. You will let countless others suffer simply because you won't be around to experience it. The selfish and self centered reasoning behind that is staggering. You would rather willingly and knowingly commit entire generations to the grave then accept a mild inconvenience at most. Yup. And quadrillions living and dying over and over across the eons is infinitely better than nobody ever living again because you carelessly fucked around with the building blocks of organic life by trusting an insane computer's judgement of what organic life needs. Countless people suffering while you're not around to experience it, and living fulfilling and meaningful lives in spite of that suffering, is what the world is and always has been in case you haven't noticed. And life still matters. The fact that civilizations ultimately fall doesn't make civilization pointless either. In my opinion, deciding that you must personally try to put a stop to that occasional suffering and disaster even at the risk of ending the show for everyone forever because you couldn't be arsed to actually think it through is just madness. It's the kind of autistic mistake the Reapers made except worse, that it's not worth it to let life in the galaxy keep going unless it's somehow made more symmetrical and streamlined and perfect from an omniscient outside perspective, even at the cost of potentially just deleting it entirely by accident. So far as I can see, the essential difference of opinion here is that your Shepards take the chemical miracle of sentient life completely for granted and don't mind gambling with it even on impulse. Mine don't, and do mind it. Deal with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 19, 2021 7:07:27 GMT
I see we’re at the part where autism is used as an insult now to belittle the other side.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 19, 2021 8:55:16 GMT
I see we’re at the part where autism is used as an insult now to belittle the other side. No~pe. I'm on the spectrum myself, as are several of my best friends, and know for a fact that the disorder is often ironically characterized by a tendency towards binary 'either/or' thinking and a harder time to recognize nuance and appreciate complex, asymmetrical and imperfect systems and structures, and I can quote medical literature to that effect. Hence my perfectly neutral and objective use of the term in a context where I think it fits just fine, thank you very much. See, now I could build a straw man and be offended that you seem to interpret any mention or use of autism as an attack on it, as if it should be taboo to talk honestly about, which is extremely patronizing, embarrassing and unhealthy as a supposed method of minority integration or protection or whatever it is people think they're doing when they get an excuse to get all huffed up about something like that. But we've had more than enough conversations for me to recognize a few patterns in the way you talk about those things, and learn to forgive you for them. And, once again, I don't feel like pretending that what you say here about any given subject is all there must be to you or even what you think about it. So I won't. You're welcome.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 12:28:28 GMT
Violated aspect is largely irrelevant when compared to the potential cost. Not only do you risk the death of the current cycle. But you will subjective future generations to years of war and death and ultimate destruction.
This is where the I feel it fails convincing. The risk to civilization in the current cycle is not explicitly stated to be any greater than our other options here in the immediate results of the choice. Each option comes with it plenty of unknowns, and the thing that exacerbates this issue is that the only being to discuss this with considers its macabre form of “preservation” as valid. It doesn’t even matter if it’s just BioWare’s penchant for overdone body horror; that’s the method by which it must be judged. As for future generations being subject to years of war and death.......what else is new? If anything, the history of even just this cycle proves well enough that these races are well capable of wiping each other out without synthetics to get into the mix. The salarians’ meddlesome nature has caused more death and destruction than the geth could ever hope. Unless Synthesis lobotomizes everyone and makes resource management and politics a thing of the past, war and death is a guarantee on a long enough timeline. Ah so what great galaxy spanning wars happened since the Krogan Rebellion and the Salarians and Turians violated their body autonomy by releasing the genophage and enforcing still births that brought their reproduction rate back down to pre industrial levels? Morning War were the Geth completely outclass the Quarians dispiste the Quarians striking first. Other then that a few minor skirmishes between Turian and Humans and Human and Batarian. But no all out war were entire populations are thrown into the conflict and planets are devastated.
You seem to be confusing small scale/proxy fighting and full blow war were the goal is to exterminate or be exterminated and saying they are the same thing. There is a vast difference between a proxy war between the Batarian Hegemony and Alliance that takes place in a single system and lasts maybe a week or so. An the Hegemony expending all their resources with the single intent to wipe the Alliance off the face of the galaxy. Nuking planets, releasing biological weapons that devastate ecosystems and rounding up an executing any human they come across.
You really like to misunderstand the preservation of races don't you? Each race is unique. The harvest ensure their race is not lost. The memories and knowledge of that race is preserved for all time. This is in contrast to the Quarians who lost their history and their culture after the Morning War. It was destroyed and damaged. Lost to them they only held onto the scraps they remembered. And that became faded with time. Our own real world history is full of this. There are countless ancient cultures that we have only scraps of knowledge about and a lot of our information is guesses based on the scraps we have. Those cultures have been lost to war and time and will never be returned.
Salarian meddling has also saved more lives then the Geth ever did. Uplifting the Krogan saved countless trillions during the Rachni Wars. The Krogan are intelligence and capable of learning and mastering advance technology. Even their base line aggression wasn't a problem. The problem was their unwillingness to control their own birth rate. Over populating planets and sucking their resources before demanding new planets to restart the cycle. Had the Krogan willingly put a limit on birth numbers per year or even set up some sort of fighting challenge were a clutch would fight to the death and only 1 survivor would be allowed to grow up. Then the Krogan Rebellion never would have happened.
But the Rebellion did happen and the Salarians created the Genophage. Which forcibly reduced the birth rate of Krogans and it brought a quick end to a long a bloody conflict that could have gone on for decades longer.
The Geth wiped out 8 or 9 billion on the low estimate of Quarians and saved 0. So the Salarians are already doing better then the Geth.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 19, 2021 13:01:36 GMT
I rest my case.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 13:30:37 GMT
You know what? Go ahead and forget it. Nobody is forcing you to respond to my arguments and clearly the point was a little abstract for you. I'm sorry about confusing you, it wasn't my intention. No it is that your use of philosophy has to meaning and can be used as a get out of jail free card to disagree with anything. Your use of it could even validate sexual relations between a 13 year old and a 40 year old. Because your use has no meaning, no direction and any time you are confronted on the logic of it you simply say "well that is just philosophy".
You are just full of disingenuous arguments aren't you? You really don't like to address what I say and you seem to have this habit of misrepresenting what I say. I'm going to make this very simple and clear for you then. Really dumb it down so you can't misunderstand anything unintentionally.
To start the Catalyst has no reason to talk to you. The Reapers are winning. The Crucible didn't fire. Shepard is laying dying on the floor. The fleets were being decimated and the effective fighting strength of the galaxy was being bled dry. The Reapers had won in everything but name. The galaxy's back was broken and the harvest was going to continue. There was no need to bring Shepard up to speak to them. They gained nothing from it and it served no purpose to gloat to a dying person how they had lost. The loss was expected as it had been repeated millions of times before.
The only reason for the Catalyst to bring Shepard up to talk to them is if there was a genuine reason to speak honestly to them. And the game narrative directly states that the Catalyst has been viewing and studying the evolutionary path of countless races and the patterns that show up that can only be seen by studying billions of years of history.
This cycles back to the Covid argument because people like Anthony Fuci have spent decades studying infectious diseases for decades. He is knowledgeable about the subject. If he says to wear a mask and stand 6 feet from each other to reduce the chance of spreading Covid there is a reason behind this set up. Jim Bob a plumber from Kansas who spent 30 minutes on google and make a youtube video ranting about how if masks can stop covid it also means it will block oxygen. Is not an expert and has very little knowledge about the subject. So when Jim Bob claims that Fuci's advice is simply arbitrary bullshit with no real reason for it. Why would you take Jim Bob's claims as factual compared to Anthony Fuci's?
To tie it back to Mass Effect in this case the Catalyst is Anthony Fuci and you are Jim Bob. You are making claims this is all arbitrary and dangerous based on nothing more then you don't personally what is happening rather then any actual basis of fact.
The Quarians literally poured out of the Relay to attack the Geth. Without the Reaper's interference one or possibly both races would have been wiped out from existence. Their history and culture lost to the fires of war. Literally the entire reason the Reapers exist and why they engage in the harvest to act as a galaxy wide reset button in the first place. And if the Geth survived the 2nd Quarian attack do you honestly think they would stick to their self isolation? They literally tried that and were still attacked and tried to be wiped out. That sort of action would definitively change the Geth's perspective on organic life.
Understanding how to calculate the sides of a triangle is not the same thing as brains not being developed enough. Your use of civilized lawmakers is raising a shit load of red flags in that word choice. Particularly for someone who has been trying to use philosophy as a get out of jail free card to avoid having to address their own argument.
Who created the idea of damage? Who developed this idea and concept and how do you measure it? Human society has existed for thousands of years operating differently from how we do today. If how they thought and acted was so bad then humanity should have driven it self to extinction by now since we were damaging everyone so completely. And does it serve a purpose or does it only serve a purpose because we say it does?
The point of this is that we as a species literally made up a lot of shit out of thin air. Your argument about body autonomy is simply fairy stories created out of nothing. Using reasoning and logic that we created out of nothing. Because nature says differently. Our history says differently.
Your really enjoy your emotional arguments based on made up stuff. It really gets hard to take you seriously when you make blatant claims like this even though we have proof of the opposite being true. If we are simply going to argue nothing but head canon can you let me know. It makes replying to you so much easier then trying to stick to the hard factual details we do have.
The rise and fall of civilizations is very different from the total domination and extinction of advanced organic life from synthetic life. The fact you try to equate this as the same is like saying getting into a fist fight with someone over a toy during black Friday sale is the same as bombing a store full of people during a black Friday sale. If you honestly can not tell the difference between a war of conquest and a war of total extinction then there is nothing left to be said. You fundamentally don't understand what is at stake here.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 13:35:54 GMT
I see we’re at the part where autism is used as an insult now to belittle the other side. They are not the first and will not be the last.
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 19, 2021 13:41:25 GMT
This is where the I feel it fails convincing. The risk to civilization in the current cycle is not explicitly stated to be any greater than our other options here in the immediate results of the choice. Each option comes with it plenty of unknowns, and the thing that exacerbates this issue is that the only being to discuss this with considers its macabre form of “preservation” as valid. It doesn’t even matter if it’s just BioWare’s penchant for overdone body horror; that’s the method by which it must be judged. As for future generations being subject to years of war and death.......what else is new? If anything, the history of even just this cycle proves well enough that these races are well capable of wiping each other out without synthetics to get into the mix. The salarians’ meddlesome nature has caused more death and destruction than the geth could ever hope. Unless Synthesis lobotomizes everyone and makes resource management and politics a thing of the past, war and death is a guarantee on a long enough timeline. Ah so what great galaxy spanning wars happened since the Krogan Rebellion and the Salarians and Turians violated their body autonomy by releasing the genophage and enforcing still births that brought their reproduction rate back down to pre industrial levels? Morning War were the Geth completely outclass the Quarians dispiste the Quarians striking first. Other then that a few minor skirmishes between Turian and Humans and Human and Batarian. But no all out war were entire populations are thrown into the conflict and planets are devastated.
You seem to be confusing small scale/proxy fighting and full blow war were the goal is to exterminate or be exterminated and saying they are the same thing. There is a vast difference between a proxy war between the Batarian Hegemony and Alliance that takes place in a single system and lasts maybe a week or so. An the Hegemony expending all their resources with the single intent to wipe the Alliance off the face of the galaxy. Nuking planets, releasing biological weapons that devastate ecosystems and rounding up an executing any human they come across.
You really like to misunderstand the preservation of races don't you? Each race is unique. The harvest ensure their race is not lost. The memories and knowledge of that race is preserved for all time. This is in contrast to the Quarians who lost their history and their culture after the Morning War. It was destroyed and damaged. Lost to them they only held onto the scraps they remembered. And that became faded with time. Our own real world history is full of this. There are countless ancient cultures that we have only scraps of knowledge about and a lot of our information is guesses based on the scraps we have. Those cultures have been lost to war and time and will never be returned.
Salarian meddling has also saved more lives then the Geth ever did. Uplifting the Krogan saved countless trillions during the Rachni Wars. The Krogan are intelligence and capable of learning and mastering advance technology. Even their base line aggression wasn't a problem. The problem was their unwillingness to control their own birth rate. Over populating planets and sucking their resources before demanding new planets to restart the cycle. Had the Krogan willingly put a limit on birth numbers per year or even set up some sort of fighting challenge were a clutch would fight to the death and only 1 survivor would be allowed to grow up. Then the Krogan Rebellion never would have happened.
But the Rebellion did happen and the Salarians created the Genophage. Which forcibly reduced the birth rate of Krogans and it brought a quick end to a long a bloody conflict that could have gone on for decades longer.
The Geth wiped out 8 or 9 billion on the low estimate of Quarians and saved 0. So the Salarians are already doing better then the Geth. The point is that the organic races of the Milky Way were fully capable of overwhelming and obliterating one another, as was the case with the rachni wars and krogan rebellions. The various scales of each conflict is not really relevant. At some point, some species is going to go to war with another, and circumstances could very well have them each fighting for their very existence. I understand preservation just fine, and the reaper method ain’t it, chief. You don’t “preserve” a culture by melting people down and turning them into a mechanized thrall. A species no longer exists when it is no longer free to retain its form and procreate. If you took a portion of a species’ population, reduced them into a collection of data and building material, and killed the rest, that species is very much extinct, and its culture is dead. If anything, many cultures would simply vanish the moment the reapers start their bombardments and rounding people up. Whatever snapshots they get would be entirely incomplete, but the important thing is that it would no longer be permitted to evolve either.
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azarhal
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Apr 19, 2021 14:15:48 GMT
I don't care about the whole philosophical debates, I'm here to say that I'm going with Origin digital version for MELE.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 19, 2021 15:14:58 GMT
No it is that your use of philosophy has to meaning and can be used as a get out of jail free card to disagree with anything. Your use of it could even validate sexual relations between a 13 year old and a 40 year old. Because your use has no meaning, no direction and any time you are confronted on the logic of it you simply say "well that is just philosophy". You are just full of disingenuous arguments aren't you? You really don't like to address what I say and you seem to have this habit of misrepresenting what I say. I'm going to make this very simple and clear for you then. Really dumb it down so you can't misunderstand anything unintentionally. To start the Catalyst has no reason to talk to you. The Reapers are winning. The Crucible didn't fire. Shepard is laying dying on the floor. The fleets were being decimated and the effective fighting strength of the galaxy was being bled dry. The Reapers had won in everything but name. The galaxy's back was broken and the harvest was going to continue. There was no need to bring Shepard up to speak to them. They gained nothing from it and it served no purpose to gloat to a dying person how they had lost. The loss was expected as it had been repeated millions of times before. The only reason for the Catalyst to bring Shepard up to talk to them is if there was a genuine reason to speak honestly to them. And the game narrative directly states that the Catalyst has been viewing and studying the evolutionary path of countless races and the patterns that show up that can only be seen by studying billions of years of history.
This cycles back to the Covid argument because people like Anthony Fuci have spent decades studying infectious diseases for decades. He is knowledgeable about the subject. If he says to wear a mask and stand 6 feet from each other to reduce the chance of spreading Covid there is a reason behind this set up. Jim Bob a plumber from Kansas who spent 30 minutes on google and make a youtube video ranting about how if masks can stop covid it also means it will block oxygen. Is not an expert and has very little knowledge about the subject. So when Jim Bob claims that Fuci's advice is simply arbitrary bullshit with no real reason for it. Why would you take Jim Bob's claims as factual compared to Anthony Fuci's? To tie it back to Mass Effect in this case the Catalyst is Anthony Fuci and you are Jim Bob. You are making claims this is all arbitrary and dangerous based on nothing more then you don't personally what is happening rather then any actual basis of fact. The Quarians literally poured out of the Relay to attack the Geth. Without the Reaper's interference one or possibly both races would have been wiped out from existence. Their history and culture lost to the fires of war. Literally the entire reason the Reapers exist and why they engage in the harvest to act as a galaxy wide reset button in the first place. And if the Geth survived the 2nd Quarian attack do you honestly think they would stick to their self isolation? They literally tried that and were still attacked and tried to be wiped out. That sort of action would definitively change the Geth's perspective on organic life.
Understanding how to calculate the sides of a triangle is not the same thing as brains not being developed enough. Your use of civilized lawmakers is raising a shit load of red flags in that word choice. Particularly for someone who has been trying to use philosophy as a get out of jail free card to avoid having to address their own argument. Who created the idea of damage? Who developed this idea and concept and how do you measure it? Human society has existed for thousands of years operating differently from how we do today. If how they thought and acted was so bad then humanity should have driven it self to extinction by now since we were damaging everyone so completely. And does it serve a purpose or does it only serve a purpose because we say it does? The point of this is that we as a species literally made up a lot of shit out of thin air. Your argument about body autonomy is simply fairy stories created out of nothing. Using reasoning and logic that we created out of nothing. Because nature says differently. Our history says differently. Your really enjoy your emotional arguments based on made up stuff. It really gets hard to take you seriously when you make blatant claims like this even though we have proof of the opposite being true. If we are simply going to argue nothing but head canon can you let me know. It makes replying to you so much easier then trying to stick to the hard factual details we do have. The rise and fall of civilizations is very different from the total domination and extinction of advanced organic life from synthetic life. The fact you try to equate this as the same is like saying getting into a fist fight with someone over a toy during black Friday sale is the same as bombing a store full of people during a black Friday sale. If you honestly can not tell the difference between a war of conquest and a war of total extinction then there is nothing left to be said. You fundamentally don't understand what is at stake here. O~kay. Normally I wouldn't be comfortable with calling someone a troll just because their arguments make shit for sense, everybody gets carried away once in a while. But this is getting a little hard to credit even by my generous and open-minded standards.  If you want to continue this discussion then please go back to the start and carefully read every post again one at a time, and then calmly formulate a better response when you have a proper grip on what I and others have actually said. If not then it's been fun talking about this.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 15:47:53 GMT
Ah so what great galaxy spanning wars happened since the Krogan Rebellion and the Salarians and Turians violated their body autonomy by releasing the genophage and enforcing still births that brought their reproduction rate back down to pre industrial levels? Morning War were the Geth completely outclass the Quarians dispiste the Quarians striking first. Other then that a few minor skirmishes between Turian and Humans and Human and Batarian. But no all out war were entire populations are thrown into the conflict and planets are devastated.
You seem to be confusing small scale/proxy fighting and full blow war were the goal is to exterminate or be exterminated and saying they are the same thing. There is a vast difference between a proxy war between the Batarian Hegemony and Alliance that takes place in a single system and lasts maybe a week or so. An the Hegemony expending all their resources with the single intent to wipe the Alliance off the face of the galaxy. Nuking planets, releasing biological weapons that devastate ecosystems and rounding up an executing any human they come across.
You really like to misunderstand the preservation of races don't you? Each race is unique. The harvest ensure their race is not lost. The memories and knowledge of that race is preserved for all time. This is in contrast to the Quarians who lost their history and their culture after the Morning War. It was destroyed and damaged. Lost to them they only held onto the scraps they remembered. And that became faded with time. Our own real world history is full of this. There are countless ancient cultures that we have only scraps of knowledge about and a lot of our information is guesses based on the scraps we have. Those cultures have been lost to war and time and will never be returned.
Salarian meddling has also saved more lives then the Geth ever did. Uplifting the Krogan saved countless trillions during the Rachni Wars. The Krogan are intelligence and capable of learning and mastering advance technology. Even their base line aggression wasn't a problem. The problem was their unwillingness to control their own birth rate. Over populating planets and sucking their resources before demanding new planets to restart the cycle. Had the Krogan willingly put a limit on birth numbers per year or even set up some sort of fighting challenge were a clutch would fight to the death and only 1 survivor would be allowed to grow up. Then the Krogan Rebellion never would have happened.
But the Rebellion did happen and the Salarians created the Genophage. Which forcibly reduced the birth rate of Krogans and it brought a quick end to a long a bloody conflict that could have gone on for decades longer.
The Geth wiped out 8 or 9 billion on the low estimate of Quarians and saved 0. So the Salarians are already doing better then the Geth. The point is that the organic races of the Milky Way were fully capable of overwhelming and obliterating one another, as was the case with the rachni wars and krogan rebellions. The various scales of each conflict is not really relevant. At some point, some species is going to go to war with another, and circumstances could very well have them each fighting for their very existence. I understand preservation just fine, and the reaper method ain’t it, chief. You don’t “preserve” a culture by melting people down and turning them into a mechanized thrall. A species no longer exists when it is no longer free to retain its form and procreate. If you took a portion of a species’ population, reduced them into a collection of data and building material, and killed the rest, that species is very much extinct, and its culture is dead. If anything, many cultures would simply vanish the moment the reapers start their bombardments and rounding people up. Whatever snapshots they get would be entirely incomplete, but the important thing is that it would no longer be permitted to evolve either. The scales of the conflict does matter. Particularly when one side has over whelming superiority over the other. Saying the scale and ultimate purpose of the conflict is irrelevant is just silly. By this logic someone who shoots and robs an old lady is the same as a warlord who rounds up people and has them shot and buried in mass graves. A war for conquest or resources will be waged very differently then a war of total destruction.
Hypothetically speaking if China invaded the USA in an effort to get their natural resources then China would only use nuclear weapons to target key important locations to cripple the USA's ability to respond to the subsequent invasion. The Chinese would only kill people who fought back because they need a labor force. The extent of their fighting would only be as far as needed to gain control of the area. They need the labor force and infrastructure to be as intact as possible otherwise it has been a waste of time and effort. And would cost a lot to rebuild said infrastructure.
However if China invaded the USA with the intent to completely wipe out the USA from the face of the Earth they would fire every nuke they had to level and irradiate as much of the USA as they could. Follow it up by an invasion that would systematically kill every American that they came across and every city that survived the nuclear attacks would be leveled with conventional explosives. Not stopping until the entire USA is nothing more then a scorched crater filled hellscape.
These are very different conflicts with very different results. You need to understand that to realize the differences. It is also important to note that both with the Rachni and Krogan Rebellion it was a fight of equals. And in both cases the Rachni and Krogan had the advantages only because of sheer numbers.
You say you understand preservation and yet you don't seem to understand it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2021 15:52:21 GMT
No it is that your use of philosophy has to meaning and can be used as a get out of jail free card to disagree with anything. Your use of it could even validate sexual relations between a 13 year old and a 40 year old. Because your use has no meaning, no direction and any time you are confronted on the logic of it you simply say "well that is just philosophy". You are just full of disingenuous arguments aren't you? You really don't like to address what I say and you seem to have this habit of misrepresenting what I say. I'm going to make this very simple and clear for you then. Really dumb it down so you can't misunderstand anything unintentionally. To start the Catalyst has no reason to talk to you. The Reapers are winning. The Crucible didn't fire. Shepard is laying dying on the floor. The fleets were being decimated and the effective fighting strength of the galaxy was being bled dry. The Reapers had won in everything but name. The galaxy's back was broken and the harvest was going to continue. There was no need to bring Shepard up to speak to them. They gained nothing from it and it served no purpose to gloat to a dying person how they had lost. The loss was expected as it had been repeated millions of times before. The only reason for the Catalyst to bring Shepard up to talk to them is if there was a genuine reason to speak honestly to them. And the game narrative directly states that the Catalyst has been viewing and studying the evolutionary path of countless races and the patterns that show up that can only be seen by studying billions of years of history.
This cycles back to the Covid argument because people like Anthony Fuci have spent decades studying infectious diseases for decades. He is knowledgeable about the subject. If he says to wear a mask and stand 6 feet from each other to reduce the chance of spreading Covid there is a reason behind this set up. Jim Bob a plumber from Kansas who spent 30 minutes on google and make a youtube video ranting about how if masks can stop covid it also means it will block oxygen. Is not an expert and has very little knowledge about the subject. So when Jim Bob claims that Fuci's advice is simply arbitrary bullshit with no real reason for it. Why would you take Jim Bob's claims as factual compared to Anthony Fuci's? To tie it back to Mass Effect in this case the Catalyst is Anthony Fuci and you are Jim Bob. You are making claims this is all arbitrary and dangerous based on nothing more then you don't personally what is happening rather then any actual basis of fact. The Quarians literally poured out of the Relay to attack the Geth. Without the Reaper's interference one or possibly both races would have been wiped out from existence. Their history and culture lost to the fires of war. Literally the entire reason the Reapers exist and why they engage in the harvest to act as a galaxy wide reset button in the first place. And if the Geth survived the 2nd Quarian attack do you honestly think they would stick to their self isolation? They literally tried that and were still attacked and tried to be wiped out. That sort of action would definitively change the Geth's perspective on organic life.
Understanding how to calculate the sides of a triangle is not the same thing as brains not being developed enough. Your use of civilized lawmakers is raising a shit load of red flags in that word choice. Particularly for someone who has been trying to use philosophy as a get out of jail free card to avoid having to address their own argument. Who created the idea of damage? Who developed this idea and concept and how do you measure it? Human society has existed for thousands of years operating differently from how we do today. If how they thought and acted was so bad then humanity should have driven it self to extinction by now since we were damaging everyone so completely. And does it serve a purpose or does it only serve a purpose because we say it does? The point of this is that we as a species literally made up a lot of shit out of thin air. Your argument about body autonomy is simply fairy stories created out of nothing. Using reasoning and logic that we created out of nothing. Because nature says differently. Our history says differently. Your really enjoy your emotional arguments based on made up stuff. It really gets hard to take you seriously when you make blatant claims like this even though we have proof of the opposite being true. If we are simply going to argue nothing but head canon can you let me know. It makes replying to you so much easier then trying to stick to the hard factual details we do have. The rise and fall of civilizations is very different from the total domination and extinction of advanced organic life from synthetic life. The fact you try to equate this as the same is like saying getting into a fist fight with someone over a toy during black Friday sale is the same as bombing a store full of people during a black Friday sale. If you honestly can not tell the difference between a war of conquest and a war of total extinction then there is nothing left to be said. You fundamentally don't understand what is at stake here. O~kay. Normally I wouldn't be comfortable with calling someone a troll just because their arguments make shit for sense, everybody gets carried away once in a while. But this is getting a little hard to credit even by my generous and open-minded standards. If you want to continue this discussion then please go back to the start and carefully read every post again one at a time, and then calmly formulate a better response when you have a proper grip on what I and others have actually said. If not then it's been fun talking about this.
So are we going to argue using nothing but head canon while you use some very large red flag racist statements like "civilized lawmakers" to describe people that can just easily be called law makers?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 16:39:53 GMT
Only certain people are allowed to say hateful things here, and if they say them they obviously aren't hateful.
Kettle black something something Epstein didn't kill himself.
At this point, start a new thread in off topic or get back to the subject at hand, this has become immensely tiresome.
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Noxluxe
N4
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noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 19, 2021 16:40:50 GMT
So are we going to argue using nothing but head canon while you use some very large red flag racist statements like "civilized lawmakers" to describe people that can just easily be called law makers?  Democratically appointed official put in a position to impose widespread secular standards on medical law? Whatever you want to call such a person, I don't really keep track of the international titles and hierarchies for government officials, let alone the American ones, let alone in English, and it doesn't matter either. Clearly not every "lawmaker" on the globe would fall within the parameters of the discussion we were having before the weird tangent you suddenly went out on trying to question the idea of manmade systems and rules for no apparent reason. I couldn't care less what weird associations you have with the word 'civilized', there's nothing either racist or judgmental about it. It's an adjective. If anything, the fact that you've jumped up and assumed that it's a racist red flag is hugely racist, patronising and offensive, and I'll thank you not to project any more of your ill-conceived bullshit on me. And I'm no longer interested in resuming the conversation with you, whether you get a grip or not. Enjoy your copy of Mass Effect: Legendary Edition when it comes out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 16:47:08 GMT
while you use some very large red flag racist statements like "civilized lawmakers" to describe people that can just easily be called law makers? I would like to report this post, but I'm not sure what to say. You speak of head canon and it being without value in this argument, yet you just applied "head canon" and loaded someone else's statement with all sorts of meaning you have 100% imagined. In my opinion this is bad faith posting and somebody needs a timeout. |
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And they've generally dedicated years of their short human lives to earning positions of trust within the medical community, which has really strict doctrines about helping without hurting on your behalf. You have reason to expect them to be working and thinking with your interests in mind. You don't have that with a machine designed by aliens a billion years ago for a completely different purpose with a completely different goal that you just met, who is enacting a routine galaxy-wide genocide as you speak because that's what its math said was the right thing to do for optimal peace and balance in the galaxy literally until you kicked the door in. 
And they've generally dedicated years of their short human lives to earning positions of trust within the medical community, which has really strict doctrines about helping without hurting on your behalf. You have reason to expect them to be working and thinking with your interests in mind. You don't have that with a machine designed by aliens a billion years ago for a completely different purpose with a completely different goal that you just met, who is enacting a routine galaxy-wide genocide as you speak because that's what its math said was the right thing to do for optimal peace and balance in the galaxy literally until you kicked the door in.
