midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 22:40:34 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 11, 2021 23:40:22 GMT
No I see machines as a new form of evolution. Final proof we have removed nature from the equation. As we reached the level needed to create new life. Machines will grown and develop in new ways that their creators never could. And it will be developed as they see fit not due to random genetic chance that created organic life.
Nature is not the yard stick to measure if something is alive because we created the definition of it out of thin air.
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life. Become more efficient and develop more understanding, both increasing their chances of survival. So exactly the same as organic life. Tell me what organic life has that synthetic life doesn’t that makes them not alive? The lore disagrees with you, heck there is even the Virtual Aliens that uploaded all of themselves to the digital realm. Are they not alive either?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2021 23:49:21 GMT
But that names been already taken buy the Starkid's cyborg zombies, this is for Starkid's fleshy but alive puppets. Yes. Yet as I think we agree, there is no difference between the two. Both Husks and post-Synthesis beings were irrevocably altered at their core level without inform or consent. In most civil societies, this is (not casually) called rape, or worse. We would have to invent a word for this crime, maybe we need to now IRL. Genocide comes to mind. Synthesis erased all organic life from existence. It's even a greater crime than what the Reapers were doing because it no longer allows organic life to survive in any form. Something that looks kind of like the organics still exists but they're not the same. They are something other. This pales in comparison to the deaths of the geth. In Destroy, one species is destroyed, and I'm not convinced that can't be restored minus Reaper tech. They were already evolving without it and there's no reason they had to mimic the behavior of organics. In Synthesis, it's all gone. Even the geth are no longer what they were. They are forced to behave like the former organics, which has essentially robbed them of being the networked (hive?) beings they were. I know it was meant to be viewed as a fairy tale ending but to me it's unimaginable horror.
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 11, 2021 23:52:30 GMT
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life. Become more efficient and develop more understanding, both increasing their chances of survival. So exactly the same as organic life. Tell me what organic life has that synthetic life doesn’t that makes them not alive? The lore disagrees with you, heck there is even the Virtual Aliens that uploaded all of themselves to the digital realm. Are they not alive either? Organic can replicate cells and heal on demand. We learn and grow independent of being taught. Our Brains don't stop growing until our mid 20's. An AI has zero reason or ability to grow because it already -it believes- achieved the Hight of evolution. My experience's as a Human being help determine the sort of person I am. Can you honestly say a Machine is influenced the same, or even similar?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2021 1:02:13 GMT
Become more efficient and develop more understanding, both increasing their chances of survival. So exactly the same as organic life. Tell me what organic life has that synthetic life doesn’t that makes them not alive? The lore disagrees with you, heck there is even the Virtual Aliens that uploaded all of themselves to the digital realm. Are they not alive either? Organic can replicate cells and heal on demand. We learn and grow independent of being taught. Our Brains don't stop growing until our mid 20's. An AI has zero reason or ability to grow because it already -it believes- achieved the Hight of evolution. My experience's as a Human being help determine the sort of person I am. Can you honestly say a Machine is influenced the same, or even similar? We haven't seen that happen in the game. EDI was the one and only exclusion.
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 1:14:34 GMT
Organic can replicate cells and heal on demand. We learn and grow independent of being taught. Our Brains don't stop growing until our mid 20's. An AI has zero reason or ability to grow because it already -it believes- achieved the Hight of evolution. My experience's as a Human being help determine the sort of person I am. Can you honestly say a Machine is influenced the same, or even similar? We haven't seen that happen in the game. EDI was the one and only exclusion. EDI is a writers device, much like Liara. She's there simply to make us sympathetic.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 12, 2021 1:20:43 GMT
Yes. Yet as I think we agree, there is no difference between the two. Both Husks and post-Synthesis beings were irrevocably altered at their core level without inform or consent. In most civil societies, this is (not casually) called rape, or worse. We would have to invent a word for this crime, maybe we need to now IRL. Genocide comes to mind. Synthesis erased all organic life from existence. It's even a greater crime than what the Reapers were doing because it no longer allows organic life to survive in any form. Something that looks kind of like the organics still exists but they're not the same. They are something other. This pales in comparison to the deaths of the geth. In Destroy, one species is destroyed, and I'm not convinced that can't be restored minus Reaper tech. They were already evolving without it and there's no reason they had to mimic the behavior of organics. In Synthesis, it's all gone. Even the geth are no longer what they were. They are forced to behave like the former organics, which has essentially robbed them of being the networked (hive?) beings they were. I know it was meant to be viewed as a fairy tale ending but to me it's unimaginable horror. It's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure that it's legit to equate transfprmation and death.
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Post by bullwinkl3 on Apr 12, 2021 1:23:32 GMT
I've pre-ordered it for pc, can't wait to go thru it again
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 2:06:56 GMT
Genocide comes to mind. Synthesis erased all organic life from existence. It's even a greater crime than what the Reapers were doing because it no longer allows organic life to survive in any form. Something that looks kind of like the organics still exists but they're not the same. They are something other. This pales in comparison to the deaths of the geth. In Destroy, one species is destroyed, and I'm not convinced that can't be restored minus Reaper tech. They were already evolving without it and there's no reason they had to mimic the behavior of organics. In Synthesis, it's all gone. Even the geth are no longer what they were. They are forced to behave like the former organics, which has essentially robbed them of being the networked (hive?) beings they were. I know it was meant to be viewed as a fairy tale ending but to me it's unimaginable horror. It's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure that it's legit to equate transfprmation and death. How about bringing your own thoughts to the table?. You seem to spend all your time watching us discuss and argue, while never giving us anything to chew on in return.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 2:37:13 GMT
I've pre-ordered it for pc, can't wait to go thru it again Why aren't you playing through the Original? I am. It staves off the nostalgia a tad. Try it
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2021 2:42:13 GMT
It's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure that it's legit to equate transfprmation and death. If you turn lead into gold is it still lead? If you turned all lead in existence into gold does lead exist?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2021 2:47:40 GMT
I've pre-ordered it for pc, can't wait to go thru it again Why aren't you playing through the Original? I am. It staves off the nostalgia a tad. Try it The changes are minimal anyway. Not sure I see much in the way of better graphics. Some people do but, I don't know, to me it doesn't look as nice in LE. I doubt we'll get much in the way of bug fixes. I bet my Vanguard Shep using Charge can still get stuck on top of a crate. I can't kick that turian's ass on Pinnacle Station. I can't save both Ashley and Kaidan. I can't romance Kaidan with my BroShep. Honestly, not seeing the value in it for me. I'm happy with my current PT (which now seems to be working without crashes) and looking forward to Destroying the Reapers once and for all. But first I have to take down the Collector Base.
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 2:53:29 GMT
Why aren't you playing through the Original? I am. It staves off the nostalgia a tad. Try it The changes are minimal anyway. Not sure I see much in the way of better graphics. Some people do but, I don't know, to me it doesn't look as nice in LE. I doubt we'll get much in the way of bug fixes. I bet my Vanguard Shep using Charge can still get stuck on top of a crate. I can't kick that turian's ass on Pinnacle Station. I can't save both Ashley and Kaidan. I can't romance Kaidan with my BroShep. Honestly, not seeing the value in it for me. I'm happy with my current PT (which now seems to be working without crashes) and looking forward to Destroying the Reapers once and for all. But first I have to take down the Collector Base. The changes may be minimal to ME2 and ME3, but from what I've seen of ME1 it appears that they've put a lot of work in.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 12, 2021 3:11:03 GMT
No I see machines as a new form of evolution. Final proof we have removed nature from the equation. As we reached the level needed to create new life. Machines will grown and develop in new ways that their creators never could. And it will be developed as they see fit not due to random genetic chance that created organic life.
Nature is not the yard stick to measure if something is alive because we created the definition of it out of thin air.
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life. How would humans or salarians evolve further? Bigger arms? Retractable anus? Or just simply increase intelligence? Will humans eventually evolve into a form that looks like a anthropomorphic chicken? Machines will do what we do. Learn more about the universe. Slowly make improvements to themselves and create a next generation that is inherently superior to the previous one. All while accumulating knowledge and experience. What the upper limits of that would be is anyone's guess. It is entirely possible that they could learn to bend the very fabric of reality to their will. To transcend beyond their physical bodies and to become one with the fabric of reality. Using the universe as their computations. But that same argument can be said about organic life. Accumulating intelligence, manipulating our physical form to better suit our needs. All while amassing information and experience until we learn to bend the fabric of reality it self to our wills. Possibly evolving beyond the need for a physical body. Existing across the universe and time at the same time. At which point we create an entirely new universe in a separate dimension starting the whole process over again.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 12, 2021 3:14:29 GMT
It's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure that it's legit to equate transfprmation and death. If you turn lead into gold is it still lead? If you turned all lead in existence into gold does lead exist? But are you destroying the lead or simply changing it into something else?
Genocide is death. Transformation is simply altering something from one state to another. A better example is if you have chlorine and you combine it with sodium. And ask if the resulting new chemical still retains the chlorine you started with. Or did you destroy the chlorine when you combined it with the sodium.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 12, 2021 3:17:38 GMT
Become more efficient and develop more understanding, both increasing their chances of survival. So exactly the same as organic life. Tell me what organic life has that synthetic life doesn’t that makes them not alive? The lore disagrees with you, heck there is even the Virtual Aliens that uploaded all of themselves to the digital realm. Are they not alive either? Organic can replicate cells and heal on demand. We learn and grow independent of being taught. Our Brains don't stop growing until our mid 20's. An AI has zero reason or ability to grow because it already -it believes- achieved the Hight of evolution. My experience's as a Human being help determine the sort of person I am. Can you honestly say a Machine is influenced the same, or even similar? First, no organics can't. Or rather organics have limits. Also, synthetics can replicate parts or all of themselves like cells and even restore previous versions aka "heal on demand". Synthetics can learn and grow without being taught. Sure they are more efficient when they are, but then so are organics either through parents/creators or systems of learning. Synthetics can grow. We see this many times both in reality and in science fiction. Yes. Mass Effect even is full of examples. EDI, SAM, the Geth Schism (despite getting same info, some went one way and some the other).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 12, 2021 3:20:54 GMT
If you turn lead into gold is it still lead? If you turned all lead in existence into gold does lead exist? But are you destroying the lead or simply changing it into something else?
Genocide is death. Transformation is simply altering something from one state to another. A better example is if you have chlorine and you combine it with sodium. And ask if the resulting new chemical still retains the chlorine you started with. Or did you destroy the chlorine when you combined it with the sodium.
They won't listen. You're debating with someone who thinks getting an implant is committing suicide, or patents giving their baby gene therapy murdered their aby because both examples the person isn't the same.
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 3:30:49 GMT
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life. How would humans or salarians evolve further? Bigger arms? Retractable anus? Or just simply increase intelligence? Will humans eventually evolve into a form that looks like a anthropomorphic chicken? Machines will do what we do. Learn more about the universe. Slowly make improvements to themselves and create a next generation that is inherently superior to the previous one. All while accumulating knowledge and experience. What the upper limits of that would be is anyone's guess. It is entirely possible that they could learn to bend the very fabric of reality to their will. To transcend beyond their physical bodies and to become one with the fabric of reality. Using the universe as their computations. But that same argument can be said about organic life. Accumulating intelligence, manipulating our physical form to better suit our needs. All while amassing information and experience until we learn to bend the fabric of reality it self to our wills. Possibly evolving beyond the need for a physical body. Existing across the universe and time at the same time. At which point we create an entirely new universe in a separate dimension starting the whole process over again.
You're missing the point. It's not just about Sentient sapient life. It's about ALL LIFE. Even bacteria. We've evolved naturally to our Apex. A Crocodile reached it's Apex perfection back when dinosaurs stomped around. Everything on Earth has reached it's peak. But other things, such as germs, still evolve. HOW exactly does a Synthetic life form reach that same status, life stage, when it doesn't need to, it can simply program it's self to be the best.
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Post by jrpN7 on Apr 12, 2021 3:32:42 GMT
But how would they evolve further? The whole point of Organic Via Machine is that Machine can only emulate life. It *Isn't* life. It's an illusion of life. How would humans or salarians evolve further? Bigger arms? Retractable anus? Or just simply increase intelligence? Will humans eventually evolve into a form that looks like a anthropomorphic chicken? I like to think we get taller, stronger, smarter, and metabolize vitamins and nutrients better to extend our natural lifespans. If I can daydream, then maybe biological healing/self-regeneration. But if we want to get scientific, humanity has likely peaked and probably won't evolve much because "survival of the fittest" isn't law of the land. Advantageous genes are no longer the only genes to pass on. Science, in its aim to provide a better quality of life for all (as it should), keeps defects and other disorders ongoing in the sense that these flawed genes aren't a death sentence like they might've been early on and are allowed to pass on to offspring like color blindness, sickle cell anemia, etc. If you turn lead into gold is it still lead? If you turned all lead in existence into gold does lead exist? But are you destroying the lead or simply changing it into something else?
Genocide is death. Transformation is simply altering something from one state to another. A better example is if you have chlorine and you combine it with sodium. And ask if the resulting new chemical still retains the chlorine you started with. Or did you destroy the chlorine when you combined it with the sodium.
I don't know, I mean didn't Andromeda go to show how genocide can be achieved through transformation- aka the Kett and their exaltation or whatever they call it? I would say when you transform something, it is no longer what it once was. It's ambitions, properties, goals and functions change maybe to the point of countering its original functions or goals.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 3:34:49 GMT
But are you destroying the lead or simply changing it into something else?
Genocide is death. Transformation is simply altering something from one state to another. A better example is if you have chlorine and you combine it with sodium. And ask if the resulting new chemical still retains the chlorine you started with. Or did you destroy the chlorine when you combined it with the sodium.
They won't listen. You're debating with someone who thinks getting an implant is committing suicide, or patents giving their baby gene therapy murdered their aby because both examples the person isn't the same. Really? Well thank you for the caution Hanako.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 3:38:23 GMT
How would humans or salarians evolve further? Bigger arms? Retractable anus? Or just simply increase intelligence? Will humans eventually evolve into a form that looks like a anthropomorphic chicken? I like to think we get taller, stronger, smarter, and metabolize vitamins and nutrients better to extend our natural lifespans. If I can daydream, then maybe biological healing/self-regeneration. But if we want to get scientific, humanity has likely peaked and probably won't evolve much because "survival of the fittest" isn't law of the land. Advantageous genes are no longer the only genes to pass on. Science, in its aim to provide a better quality of life for all (as it should), keeps defects and other disorders ongoing in the sense that these flawed genes aren't a death sentence like they might've been early on and are allowed to pass on to offspring like color blindness, sickle cell anemia, etc. But are you destroying the lead or simply changing it into something else?
Genocide is death. Transformation is simply altering something from one state to another. A better example is if you have chlorine and you combine it with sodium. And ask if the resulting new chemical still retains the chlorine you started with. Or did you destroy the chlorine when you combined it with the sodium.
I don't know, I mean didn't Andromeda go to show how genocide can be achieved through transformation- aka the Kett and their exaltation or whatever they call it? I would say when you transform something, it is no longer what it once was. It's ambitions, properties, goals and functions change maybe to the point of countering its original functions or goals. Taller you say? Cos I'm only Five foot one.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 12, 2021 4:03:03 GMT
They won't listen. You're debating with someone who thinks getting an implant is committing suicide, or patents giving their baby gene therapy murdered their aby because both examples the person isn't the same. Really? Well thank you for the caution Hanako. I see we're at the part where you ignore the points being made and just twist a post around.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 4:08:47 GMT
Really? Well thank you for the caution Hanako. I see we're at the part where you ignore the points being made and just twist a post around. Nope. I've actually gone straight to confused. Explain yourself please.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 12, 2021 4:12:25 GMT
I see we're at the part where you ignore the points being made and just twist a post around. Nope. I've actually gone straight to confused. Explain yourself please. I gave examples earlier that refuted your argument, but you ignored that post and instead replied to a post making it seem like I was talking about a different person than I was.
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Post by midnightwolf on Apr 12, 2021 4:17:29 GMT
Nope. I've actually gone straight to confused. Explain yourself please. I gave examples earlier that refuted your argument, but you ignored that post and instead replied to a post making it seem like I was talking about a different person than I was. I didn't see any post by you debating my point of view. I would have replied. Have I insulted you in some way?
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